Re: [Skunkworks] Safaricom versus Airtel Market Dominance
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are. In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007. There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule. If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected. -- Regards, Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
Paul, There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market. Regards, Isaac Innova On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
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-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
Guys, Due to this trend of failure by Celtel, Zain and Yu to establish its market, no investor will ever be willing to join this Kenyan Telecom market. We will be heading to monopolistic market that was liberised 16years back, and our rigidity will slap us right on the our faces. This policy needs serious revamping. I will need to participate. On 8 July 2015 at 14:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
Two points: - The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief." - Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot. PK On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- Regards, Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to improve competitiveness?. I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create a working and competitive environment. International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to regulators on policy issues on competition. On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote:
Two points:
- The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief."
- Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot.
PK
On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping safaricom from making money that's counter productive On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to improve competitiveness?.
I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create a working and competitive environment.
International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to regulators on policy issues on competition.
On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote:
Two points:
- The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief."
- Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot.
PK
On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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All I gather from this discussion is that we let Safaricom be and the rest to up their game or ship out. How good it this to the market and our economy? It's the government's work to ensure there is a level play field for competition to thrive giving the customers options and value, but currently it's not happening. Safaricom like all businesses is here to make money not caring who get messed up along the way, the sad truth of capitalism so if not "pruned" we will be its slaves before we know it. Look at the employment and investment in this sector it's only Safaricom doing serious investments will others are struggling. Safaricom will grow in revenue collection with no proportional addition of resources human or otherwise but if other competitors have a piece of the pie we will have better employment numbers both direct and indirect. Regards, Job Muriuki, Skype: heviejob On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 6:47 AM, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping safaricom from making money that's counter productive On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to improve competitiveness?.
I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create a working and competitive environment.
International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to regulators on policy issues on competition.
On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote:
Two points:
- The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief."
- Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot.
PK
On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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Wasn't Microsoft under similar scrutiny from the EU a couple of years ago? On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 8:17 AM, Job Muriuki via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
All I gather from this discussion is that we let Safaricom be and the rest to up their game or ship out. How good it this to the market and our economy? It's the government's work to ensure there is a level play field for competition to thrive giving the customers options and value, but currently it's not happening.
Safaricom like all businesses is here to make money not caring who get messed up along the way, the sad truth of capitalism so if not "pruned" we will be its slaves before we know it. Look at the employment and investment in this sector it's only Safaricom doing serious investments will others are struggling.
Safaricom will grow in revenue collection with no proportional addition of resources human or otherwise but if other competitors have a piece of the pie we will have better employment numbers both direct and indirect.
Regards, Job Muriuki,
Skype: heviejob
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 6:47 AM, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping safaricom from making money that's counter productive On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to improve competitiveness?.
I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create a working and competitive environment.
International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to regulators on policy issues on competition.
On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote:
Two points:
- The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief."
- Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot.
PK
On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! ᐧ On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping safaricom from making money that's counter productive On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to improve competitiveness?.
I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create a working and competitive environment.
International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to regulators on policy issues on competition.
On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote:
Two points:
- The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief."
- Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot.
PK
On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about Kenya Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt be broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become profitable? On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! ᐧ
On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping safaricom from making money that's counter productive On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to improve competitiveness?.
I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create a working and competitive environment.
International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to regulators on policy issues on competition.
On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote:
Two points:
- The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief."
- Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot.
PK
On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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While we still on this case, many start-ups have accused Safaricom of 'stealing' and implementing their ideas. Latest case on daily nation today ( http://goo.gl/1PT11Q) . Is this a proof that they(safcom) use all means to remain dominant and control the industry? On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Timothy Yegon via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about Kenya Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt be broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become profitable?
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! ᐧ
On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping safaricom from making money that's counter productive On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to improve competitiveness?.
I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create a working and competitive environment.
International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to regulators on policy issues on competition.
On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote:
Two points:
- The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief."
- Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot.
PK
On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is > dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim > that I admire how organised they are. > > In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show > that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is > primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of > innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very > tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to > Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes > have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a > pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market > strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given > that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of > its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only > recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007. > > There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a > verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that > there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate > growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting > to see what the relevant authorities rule. > > If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand > corrected. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul K. Korir, PhD > +353 86 224 19 66 > *Ordnung muß sein* > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- Vincent Mosoti, Analytics/Business Intelligence. Skype: vmmosoti Phone: +254 722 972 805 LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti
soo many pros and cons, but this is a case of punishing innovation and superior strategy, sure they are bullies On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Vincent Mosoti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
While we still on this case, many start-ups have accused Safaricom of 'stealing' and implementing their ideas. Latest case on daily nation today ( http://goo.gl/1PT11Q) . Is this a proof that they(safcom) use all means to remain dominant and control the industry?
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Timothy Yegon via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about Kenya Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt be broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become profitable?
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! ᐧ
On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping safaricom from making money that's counter productive On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to improve competitiveness?.
I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create a working and competitive environment.
International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to regulators on policy issues on competition.
On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote:
Two points:
- The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief."
- Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot.
PK
On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote:
> Paul, > > > There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be > a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage > competition. > Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with > three aspects in throwing this people out of market. > 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- > Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data > throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. > 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, > safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around > weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism > in the market. > > Regards, > Isaac > > Innova > > > > On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is >> dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim >> that I admire how organised they are. >> >> In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to >> show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that >> it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of >> innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very >> tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to >> Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes >> have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a >> pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market >> strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given >> that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of >> its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only >> recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007. >> >> There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a >> verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that >> there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate >> growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting >> to see what the relevant authorities rule. >> >> If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand >> corrected. >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Paul K. Korir, PhD >> +353 86 224 19 66 >> *Ordnung muß sein* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > > -- > Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® > > >
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Vincent Mosoti, Analytics/Business Intelligence. Skype: vmmosoti Phone: +254 722 972 805 LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Leonard Kore
Three points 1. Competition should be managed without killing innovation- Safaricom is not going to purnished because of their innovations!! The government's objective is to create competitive environment 2. KPLC, KPC are monoploistic companies just like Telcom Kenya before 1998. Tuskeys wanted to buy Ukwala and it was established that if that happens then it could take over 40% of the market share in a liberized market. The sale was stopped at somepoint- Kudos to Competition Authority o Kenya 3. Competition is a global policy issue, the unique thing in Kenya's case is that Safaricom has many division (mobile money, data, Safaricom Business, Voice, Entertainment) which hardly defines its postion in the Telcom market share. In this case Safaricom needs special handling approach. The secret that airtel have not realized is that it is not about the product, but it is all about the business model. I will try to elaborate this someday. Regards, Isaac On 9 July 2015 at 10:08, Leonard Kore via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
soo many pros and cons, but this is a case of punishing innovation and superior strategy, sure they are bullies
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Vincent Mosoti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
While we still on this case, many start-ups have accused Safaricom of 'stealing' and implementing their ideas. Latest case on daily nation today ( http://goo.gl/1PT11Q) . Is this a proof that they(safcom) use all means to remain dominant and control the industry?
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Timothy Yegon via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about Kenya Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt be broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become profitable?
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! ᐧ
On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping safaricom from making money that's counter productive On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to improve competitiveness?.
I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create a working and competitive environment.
International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to regulators on policy issues on competition.
On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote:
> Two points: > > - The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. > However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the > government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to > market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not > competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to > mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to > Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief." > > - Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be > simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government > imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent > with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be > for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is > up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot. > > PK > > > On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Paul, >> >> >> There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to >> be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to >> leverage competition. >> Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play >> with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. >> 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- >> Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data >> throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. >> 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, >> safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around >> weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism >> in the market. >> >> Regards, >> Isaac >> >> Innova >> >> >> >> On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is >>> dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim >>> that I admire how organised they are. >>> >>> In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to >>> show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that >>> it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of >>> innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very >>> tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to >>> Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes >>> have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a >>> pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market >>> strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given >>> that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of >>> its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only >>> recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007. >>> >>> There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a >>> verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that >>> there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate >>> growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting >>> to see what the relevant authorities rule. >>> >>> If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand >>> corrected. >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Paul K. Korir, PhD >>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >> >> >> > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> > +353 86 224 19 66 > *Ordnung muß sein* >
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
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Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Vincent Mosoti, Analytics/Business Intelligence. Skype: vmmosoti Phone: +254 722 972 805 LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti
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Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Leonard Kore
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
Are we really trying to say Safaricom is not Dominant? Controlling 80% of the market and probably 90% of the profits. How they got there is quite irrelevant. Point is they control the market and that cannot be a good thing. On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Three points 1. Competition should be managed without killing innovation- Safaricom is not going to purnished because of their innovations!! The government's objective is to create competitive environment
2. KPLC, KPC are monoploistic companies just like Telcom Kenya before 1998. Tuskeys wanted to buy Ukwala and it was established that if that happens then it could take over 40% of the market share in a liberized market. The sale was stopped at somepoint- Kudos to Competition Authority o Kenya
3. Competition is a global policy issue, the unique thing in Kenya's case is that Safaricom has many division (mobile money, data, Safaricom Business, Voice, Entertainment) which hardly defines its postion in the Telcom market share. In this case Safaricom needs special handling approach.
The secret that airtel have not realized is that it is not about the product, but it is all about the business model. I will try to elaborate this someday.
Regards, Isaac
On 9 July 2015 at 10:08, Leonard Kore via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
soo many pros and cons, but this is a case of punishing innovation and superior strategy, sure they are bullies
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Vincent Mosoti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
While we still on this case, many start-ups have accused Safaricom of 'stealing' and implementing their ideas. Latest case on daily nation today ( http://goo.gl/1PT11Q) . Is this a proof that they(safcom) use all means to remain dominant and control the industry?
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Timothy Yegon via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about Kenya Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt be broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become profitable?
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! ᐧ
On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping safaricom from making money that's counter productive On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom > industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved > anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to > improve competitiveness?. > > I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would > therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create > a working and competitive environment. > > International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to > regulators on policy issues on competition. > > > > > > On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Two points: >> >> - The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. >> However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the >> government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to >> market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not >> competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to >> mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to >> Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief." >> >> - Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be >> simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government >> imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent >> with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be >> for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is >> up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot. >> >> PK >> >> >> On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Paul, >>> >>> >>> There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to >>> be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to >>> leverage competition. >>> Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play >>> with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. >>> 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- >>> Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data >>> throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. >>> 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, >>> safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around >>> weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism >>> in the market. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Isaac >>> >>> Innova >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is >>>> dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim >>>> that I admire how organised they are. >>>> >>>> In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to >>>> show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that >>>> it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of >>>> innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very >>>> tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to >>>> Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes >>>> have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a >>>> pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market >>>> strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given >>>> that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of >>>> its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only >>>> recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007. >>>> >>>> There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, >>>> a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that >>>> there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate >>>> growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting >>>> to see what the relevant authorities rule. >>>> >>>> If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand >>>> corrected. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD >>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> >> +353 86 224 19 66 >> *Ordnung muß sein* >> > > > > -- > Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® > > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Vincent Mosoti, Analytics/Business Intelligence. Skype: vmmosoti Phone: +254 722 972 805 LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Leonard Kore
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
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Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards, Mark Mwangi markmwangi.me.ke
That is true Mark, Kenyan Telcom Market is one of the most advanced in Africa. The way the government will handle this issue will determine whether we are going to set a best practice or lessons learn for the rest of Africa. On 9 July 2015 at 11:54, Mark Mwangi <mwangy@gmail.com> wrote:
Are we really trying to say Safaricom is not Dominant? Controlling 80% of the market and probably 90% of the profits.
How they got there is quite irrelevant. Point is they control the market and that cannot be a good thing.
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Three points 1. Competition should be managed without killing innovation- Safaricom is not going to purnished because of their innovations!! The government's objective is to create competitive environment
2. KPLC, KPC are monoploistic companies just like Telcom Kenya before 1998. Tuskeys wanted to buy Ukwala and it was established that if that happens then it could take over 40% of the market share in a liberized market. The sale was stopped at somepoint- Kudos to Competition Authority o Kenya
3. Competition is a global policy issue, the unique thing in Kenya's case is that Safaricom has many division (mobile money, data, Safaricom Business, Voice, Entertainment) which hardly defines its postion in the Telcom market share. In this case Safaricom needs special handling approach.
The secret that airtel have not realized is that it is not about the product, but it is all about the business model. I will try to elaborate this someday.
Regards, Isaac
On 9 July 2015 at 10:08, Leonard Kore via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
soo many pros and cons, but this is a case of punishing innovation and superior strategy, sure they are bullies
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Vincent Mosoti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
While we still on this case, many start-ups have accused Safaricom of 'stealing' and implementing their ideas. Latest case on daily nation today ( http://goo.gl/1PT11Q) . Is this a proof that they(safcom) use all means to remain dominant and control the industry?
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Timothy Yegon via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about Kenya Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt be broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become profitable?
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! ᐧ
On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo > allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that > you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so > much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then > let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting > chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange > face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping > safaricom from making money that's counter productive > On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom >> industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved >> anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to >> improve competitiveness?. >> >> I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would >> therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create >> a working and competitive environment. >> >> International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to >> regulators on policy issues on competition. >> >> >> >> >> >> On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Two points: >>> >>> - The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. >>> However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the >>> government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to >>> market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not >>> competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to >>> mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to >>> Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief." >>> >>> - Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be >>> simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government >>> imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent >>> with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be >>> for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is >>> up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot. >>> >>> PK >>> >>> >>> On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Paul, >>>> >>>> >>>> There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to >>>> be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to >>>> leverage competition. >>>> Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play >>>> with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. >>>> 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- >>>> Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data >>>> throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. >>>> 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, >>>> safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around >>>> weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism >>>> in the market. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Isaac >>>> >>>> Innova >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is >>>>> dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim >>>>> that I admire how organised they are. >>>>> >>>>> In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to >>>>> show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that >>>>> it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of >>>>> innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very >>>>> tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to >>>>> Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes >>>>> have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a >>>>> pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market >>>>> strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given >>>>> that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of >>>>> its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only >>>>> recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007. >>>>> >>>>> There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, >>>>> a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that >>>>> there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate >>>>> growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting >>>>> to see what the relevant authorities rule. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand >>>>> corrected. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD >>>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> >>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Vincent Mosoti, Analytics/Business Intelligence. Skype: vmmosoti Phone: +254 722 972 805 LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Leonard Kore
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-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
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Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards,
Mark Mwangi
markmwangi.me.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
Why don't we all take a vote on whether Safaricom is dominant and if the split will tame it. I work for one of their subcontractor and all jobs in the office is Safaricom either directly from them or from other bigger subs doing work for Safaricom and very minimal or no work from the other players. It's bad no matter how we try to support innovation and business models. The government is like a parent, and it has an obligation to support and encourage all business ventures and when one is bullying everyone else they step in and take charge. The number of allegations against Safaricom taking other companies ideas and making them theirs is just an indication of their dominance. Regards, Job Muriuki, Skype: heviejob On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
That is true Mark,
Kenyan Telcom Market is one of the most advanced in Africa. The way the government will handle this issue will determine whether we are going to set a best practice or lessons learn for the rest of Africa.
On 9 July 2015 at 11:54, Mark Mwangi <mwangy@gmail.com> wrote:
Are we really trying to say Safaricom is not Dominant? Controlling 80% of the market and probably 90% of the profits.
How they got there is quite irrelevant. Point is they control the market and that cannot be a good thing.
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Three points 1. Competition should be managed without killing innovation- Safaricom is not going to purnished because of their innovations!! The government's objective is to create competitive environment
2. KPLC, KPC are monoploistic companies just like Telcom Kenya before 1998. Tuskeys wanted to buy Ukwala and it was established that if that happens then it could take over 40% of the market share in a liberized market. The sale was stopped at somepoint- Kudos to Competition Authority o Kenya
3. Competition is a global policy issue, the unique thing in Kenya's case is that Safaricom has many division (mobile money, data, Safaricom Business, Voice, Entertainment) which hardly defines its postion in the Telcom market share. In this case Safaricom needs special handling approach.
The secret that airtel have not realized is that it is not about the product, but it is all about the business model. I will try to elaborate this someday.
Regards, Isaac
On 9 July 2015 at 10:08, Leonard Kore via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
soo many pros and cons, but this is a case of punishing innovation and superior strategy, sure they are bullies
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Vincent Mosoti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
While we still on this case, many start-ups have accused Safaricom of 'stealing' and implementing their ideas. Latest case on daily nation today ( http://goo.gl/1PT11Q) . Is this a proof that they(safcom) use all means to remain dominant and control the industry?
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Timothy Yegon via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about Kenya Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt be broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become profitable?
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious > few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. > They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! > ᐧ > > On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo >> allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that >> you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so >> much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then >> let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting >> chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange >> face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping >> safaricom from making money that's counter productive >> On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom >>> industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved >>> anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to >>> improve competitiveness?. >>> >>> I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would >>> therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create >>> a working and competitive environment. >>> >>> International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to >>> regulators on policy issues on competition. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Two points: >>>> >>>> - The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. >>>> However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the >>>> government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to >>>> market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not >>>> competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to >>>> mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to >>>> Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief." >>>> >>>> - Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be >>>> simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government >>>> imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent >>>> with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be >>>> for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is >>>> up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot. >>>> >>>> PK >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Paul, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom >>>>> to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to >>>>> leverage competition. >>>>> Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play >>>>> with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. >>>>> 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on >>>>> voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data >>>>> throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. >>>>> 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, >>>>> safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around >>>>> weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism >>>>> in the market. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Isaac >>>>> >>>>> Innova >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is >>>>>> dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim >>>>>> that I admire how organised they are. >>>>>> >>>>>> In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to >>>>>> show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that >>>>>> it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of >>>>>> innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very >>>>>> tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to >>>>>> Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes >>>>>> have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a >>>>>> pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market >>>>>> strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given >>>>>> that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of >>>>>> its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only >>>>>> recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For >>>>>> one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market >>>>>> that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate >>>>>> growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting >>>>>> to see what the relevant authorities rule. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand >>>>>> corrected. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD >>>>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> >>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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-- Vincent Mosoti, Analytics/Business Intelligence. Skype: vmmosoti Phone: +254 722 972 805 LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti
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Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Leonard Kore
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Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards,
Mark Mwangi
markmwangi.me.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
A simple example is how they rebuffed Airtels Unliminet campaign by dropping their bundle prices at the snap of a finger. They didnt say its at a loss so it means they are making money. A similar situation is the DSTV vs Others pay TV market. When other entrants come, prices drop. When they leave prices rise with no commensurate addition in value. Safaricom should be broken up or tamed in whatever regulatory way. We cant have 1 big chunk of our GDP flowing through a subsidiary of a telco even if the Govt is a major shareholder. It needs to appear fair even if it is not. Or isn't tat what "Free markets" are about? On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Job Muriuki <muriukin@gmail.com> wrote:
Why don't we all take a vote on whether Safaricom is dominant and if the split will tame it.
I work for one of their subcontractor and all jobs in the office is Safaricom either directly from them or from other bigger subs doing work for Safaricom and very minimal or no work from the other players. It's bad no matter how we try to support innovation and business models.
The government is like a parent, and it has an obligation to support and encourage all business ventures and when one is bullying everyone else they step in and take charge. The number of allegations against Safaricom taking other companies ideas and making them theirs is just an indication of their dominance.
Regards, Job Muriuki,
Skype: heviejob
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
That is true Mark,
Kenyan Telcom Market is one of the most advanced in Africa. The way the government will handle this issue will determine whether we are going to set a best practice or lessons learn for the rest of Africa.
On 9 July 2015 at 11:54, Mark Mwangi <mwangy@gmail.com> wrote:
Are we really trying to say Safaricom is not Dominant? Controlling 80% of the market and probably 90% of the profits.
How they got there is quite irrelevant. Point is they control the market and that cannot be a good thing.
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Three points 1. Competition should be managed without killing innovation- Safaricom is not going to purnished because of their innovations!! The government's objective is to create competitive environment
2. KPLC, KPC are monoploistic companies just like Telcom Kenya before 1998. Tuskeys wanted to buy Ukwala and it was established that if that happens then it could take over 40% of the market share in a liberized market. The sale was stopped at somepoint- Kudos to Competition Authority o Kenya
3. Competition is a global policy issue, the unique thing in Kenya's case is that Safaricom has many division (mobile money, data, Safaricom Business, Voice, Entertainment) which hardly defines its postion in the Telcom market share. In this case Safaricom needs special handling approach.
The secret that airtel have not realized is that it is not about the product, but it is all about the business model. I will try to elaborate this someday.
Regards, Isaac
On 9 July 2015 at 10:08, Leonard Kore via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
soo many pros and cons, but this is a case of punishing innovation and superior strategy, sure they are bullies
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Vincent Mosoti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
While we still on this case, many start-ups have accused Safaricom of 'stealing' and implementing their ideas. Latest case on daily nation today ( http://goo.gl/1PT11Q) . Is this a proof that they(safcom) use all means to remain dominant and control the industry?
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Timothy Yegon via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about Kenya > Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt be > broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become > profitable? > > On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious >> few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. >> They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! >> ᐧ >> >> On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as >>> fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company >>> that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested >>> so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then >>> let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting >>> chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange >>> face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping >>> safaricom from making money that's counter productive >>> On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom >>>> industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved >>>> anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to >>>> improve competitiveness?. >>>> >>>> I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would >>>> therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create >>>> a working and competitive environment. >>>> >>>> International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline >>>> to regulators on policy issues on competition. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Two points: >>>>> >>>>> - The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. >>>>> However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the >>>>> government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to >>>>> market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not >>>>> competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to >>>>> mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to >>>>> Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief." >>>>> >>>>> - Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be >>>>> simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government >>>>> imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent >>>>> with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be >>>>> for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is >>>>> up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot. >>>>> >>>>> PK >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat < >>>>> isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Paul, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom >>>>>> to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to >>>>>> leverage competition. >>>>>> Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play >>>>>> with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. >>>>>> 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on >>>>>> voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data >>>>>> throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. >>>>>> 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, >>>>>> safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around >>>>>> weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism >>>>>> in the market. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Isaac >>>>>> >>>>>> Innova >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is >>>>>>> dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim >>>>>>> that I admire how organised they are. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have >>>>>>> to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show >>>>>>> that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their >>>>>>> lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that >>>>>>> is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice >>>>>>> (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these >>>>>>> brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. >>>>>>> Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that >>>>>>> their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural >>>>>>> differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware >>>>>>> that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a >>>>>>> remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million >>>>>>> profit in either 2006 or 2007. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For >>>>>>> one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market >>>>>>> that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate >>>>>>> growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting >>>>>>> to see what the relevant authorities rule. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I >>>>>>> stand corrected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD >>>>>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>>>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> >>>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
-- Vincent Mosoti, Analytics/Business Intelligence. Skype: vmmosoti Phone: +254 722 972 805 LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Leonard Kore
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards,
Mark Mwangi
markmwangi.me.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards, Mark Mwangi markmwangi.me.ke
Free markets in fact are about lesser regulation - the opposite of what we are asking for. On Thursday, 9 July 2015, Mark Mwangi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
A simple example is how they rebuffed Airtels Unliminet campaign by dropping their bundle prices at the snap of a finger. They didnt say its at a loss so it means they are making money.
A similar situation is the DSTV vs Others pay TV market. When other entrants come, prices drop. When they leave prices rise with no commensurate addition in value.
Safaricom should be broken up or tamed in whatever regulatory way. We cant have 1 big chunk of our GDP flowing through a subsidiary of a telco even if the Govt is a major shareholder. It needs to appear fair even if it is not. Or isn't tat what "Free markets" are about?
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Job Muriuki <muriukin@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','muriukin@gmail.com');>> wrote:
Why don't we all take a vote on whether Safaricom is dominant and if the split will tame it.
I work for one of their subcontractor and all jobs in the office is Safaricom either directly from them or from other bigger subs doing work for Safaricom and very minimal or no work from the other players. It's bad no matter how we try to support innovation and business models.
The government is like a parent, and it has an obligation to support and encourage all business ventures and when one is bullying everyone else they step in and take charge. The number of allegations against Safaricom taking other companies ideas and making them theirs is just an indication of their dominance.
Regards, Job Muriuki,
Skype: heviejob
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
That is true Mark,
Kenyan Telcom Market is one of the most advanced in Africa. The way the government will handle this issue will determine whether we are going to set a best practice or lessons learn for the rest of Africa.
On 9 July 2015 at 11:54, Mark Mwangi <mwangy@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mwangy@gmail.com');>> wrote:
Are we really trying to say Safaricom is not Dominant? Controlling 80% of the market and probably 90% of the profits.
How they got there is quite irrelevant. Point is they control the market and that cannot be a good thing.
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
Three points 1. Competition should be managed without killing innovation- Safaricom is not going to purnished because of their innovations!! The government's objective is to create competitive environment
2. KPLC, KPC are monoploistic companies just like Telcom Kenya before 1998. Tuskeys wanted to buy Ukwala and it was established that if that happens then it could take over 40% of the market share in a liberized market. The sale was stopped at somepoint- Kudos to Competition Authority o Kenya
3. Competition is a global policy issue, the unique thing in Kenya's case is that Safaricom has many division (mobile money, data, Safaricom Business, Voice, Entertainment) which hardly defines its postion in the Telcom market share. In this case Safaricom needs special handling approach.
The secret that airtel have not realized is that it is not about the product, but it is all about the business model. I will try to elaborate this someday.
Regards, Isaac
On 9 July 2015 at 10:08, Leonard Kore via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
soo many pros and cons, but this is a case of punishing innovation and superior strategy, sure they are bullies
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Vincent Mosoti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
> While we still on this case, many start-ups have accused Safaricom > of 'stealing' and implementing their ideas. Latest case on daily nation > today (http://goo.gl/1PT11Q) . Is this a proof that they(safcom) > use all means to remain dominant and control the industry? > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Timothy Yegon via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote: > >> If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about >> Kenya Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt >> be broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become >> profitable? >> >> On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote: >> >>> Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the >>> dubious few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget >>> easily. They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them >>> down! >>> ᐧ >>> >>> On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as >>>> fo allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company >>>> that you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested >>>> so much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then >>>> let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting >>>> chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange >>>> face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping >>>> safaricom from making money that's counter productive >>>> On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom >>>>> industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved >>>>> anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to >>>>> improve competitiveness?. >>>>> >>>>> I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would >>>>> therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create >>>>> a working and competitive environment. >>>>> >>>>> International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline >>>>> to regulators on policy issues on competition. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com >>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','polariseke@gmail.com');>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Two points: >>>>>> >>>>>> - The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no >>>>>> competition. However, the government is not the source of competition. >>>>>> Expecting the government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The >>>>>> solution to market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is >>>>>> not competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to >>>>>> mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to >>>>>> Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief." >>>>>> >>>>>> - Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be >>>>>> simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government >>>>>> imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent >>>>>> with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be >>>>>> for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is >>>>>> up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot. >>>>>> >>>>>> PK >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat < >>>>>> isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com >>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com');>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Paul, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom >>>>>>> to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to >>>>>>> leverage competition. >>>>>>> Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They >>>>>>> play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. >>>>>>> 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on >>>>>>> voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data >>>>>>> throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. >>>>>>> 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, >>>>>>> safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around >>>>>>> weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism >>>>>>> in the market. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Isaac >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Innova >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is >>>>>>>> dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim >>>>>>>> that I admire how organised they are. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have >>>>>>>> to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show >>>>>>>> that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their >>>>>>>> lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that >>>>>>>> is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice >>>>>>>> (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these >>>>>>>> brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. >>>>>>>> Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that >>>>>>>> their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural >>>>>>>> differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware >>>>>>>> that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a >>>>>>>> remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million >>>>>>>> profit in either 2006 or 2007. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For >>>>>>>> one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market >>>>>>>> that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate >>>>>>>> growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting >>>>>>>> to see what the relevant authorities rule. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I >>>>>>>> stand corrected. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD >>>>>>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>>>>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> >>>>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > > -- > Vincent Mosoti, > Analytics/Business Intelligence. > Skype: vmmosoti > Phone: +254 722 972 805 > LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
-- Leonard Kore
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Mark Mwangi
markmwangi.me.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
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Tuskys couldn't buy Ukwala but Brookside can buy all dairies and even cows. Such a competitive country. The problem with making rules because Airtel demands we do so, is that we are likely to shoot ourselves in the feet in the process. The foundation of a law is to protect rights. Whose rights are we protecting here? The Consumers? Airtel's? I think we need to look at what contributes to this so called dominance - perhaps under investment from the other networks? Lack of understanding the local market? In some countries, this takes a strange twist in that telcos get penalised for failing to achieve certain market conditions - coverage, 3G coverage. Maybe, rather than penalise Safaricom, we should open up the market for a fourth entrant, based on how much they are going to invest in the market and services they will offer. We should also set a licensing fee that allows them to quickly invest in the market. Alternatively, maybe we should encourage and incentivise MNOs. Let's not be convinced that the only way to tackle the issues is by dismantling Safaricom. Markets are able to correct dominance by themselves if the conditions are right, maybe we just need to create the right conditions. On Thursday, 9 July 2015, Mark Mwangi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Are we really trying to say Safaricom is not Dominant? Controlling 80% of the market and probably 90% of the profits.
How they got there is quite irrelevant. Point is they control the market and that cannot be a good thing.
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
Three points 1. Competition should be managed without killing innovation- Safaricom is not going to purnished because of their innovations!! The government's objective is to create competitive environment
2. KPLC, KPC are monoploistic companies just like Telcom Kenya before 1998. Tuskeys wanted to buy Ukwala and it was established that if that happens then it could take over 40% of the market share in a liberized market. The sale was stopped at somepoint- Kudos to Competition Authority o Kenya
3. Competition is a global policy issue, the unique thing in Kenya's case is that Safaricom has many division (mobile money, data, Safaricom Business, Voice, Entertainment) which hardly defines its postion in the Telcom market share. In this case Safaricom needs special handling approach.
The secret that airtel have not realized is that it is not about the product, but it is all about the business model. I will try to elaborate this someday.
Regards, Isaac
On 9 July 2015 at 10:08, Leonard Kore via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
soo many pros and cons, but this is a case of punishing innovation and superior strategy, sure they are bullies
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Vincent Mosoti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
While we still on this case, many start-ups have accused Safaricom of 'stealing' and implementing their ideas. Latest case on daily nation today ( http://goo.gl/1PT11Q) . Is this a proof that they(safcom) use all means to remain dominant and control the industry?
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Timothy Yegon via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about Kenya Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt be broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become profitable?
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! ᐧ
On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
> So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo > allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that > you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so > much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then > let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting > chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange > face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping > safaricom from making money that's counter productive > On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote: > >> How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom >> industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved >> anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to >> improve competitiveness?. >> >> I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would >> therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create >> a working and competitive environment. >> >> International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to >> regulators on policy issues on competition. >> >> >> >> >> >> On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','polariseke@gmail.com');>> wrote: >> >>> Two points: >>> >>> - The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. >>> However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the >>> government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to >>> market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not >>> competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to >>> mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to >>> Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief." >>> >>> - Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be >>> simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government >>> imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent >>> with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be >>> for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is >>> up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot. >>> >>> PK >>> >>> >>> On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com');>> wrote: >>> >>>> Paul, >>>> >>>> >>>> There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to >>>> be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to >>>> leverage competition. >>>> Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play >>>> with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. >>>> 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- >>>> Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data >>>> throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. >>>> 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, >>>> safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around >>>> weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism >>>> in the market. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Isaac >>>> >>>> Innova >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is >>>>> dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim >>>>> that I admire how organised they are. >>>>> >>>>> In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to >>>>> show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that >>>>> it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of >>>>> innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very >>>>> tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to >>>>> Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes >>>>> have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a >>>>> pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market >>>>> strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given >>>>> that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of >>>>> its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only >>>>> recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007. >>>>> >>>>> There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, >>>>> a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that >>>>> there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate >>>>> growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting >>>>> to see what the relevant authorities rule. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand >>>>> corrected. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD >>>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> >>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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-- Vincent Mosoti, Analytics/Business Intelligence. Skype: vmmosoti Phone: +254 722 972 805 LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti
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-- Leonard Kore
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-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
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Mark Mwangi
markmwangi.me.ke
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++ @Dennis We should be thinking of how to rectify the situation since we are already here. Last time the 3G licence fee was reduced which would facilitate other providers to offer the service. 4G??? Kind Regards, Kennedy KK Mobile: +254-721-699119 / +254-20-5283207 Skype: k.kairu Gtalk: kkairu On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Tuskys couldn't buy Ukwala but Brookside can buy all dairies and even cows. Such a competitive country.
The problem with making rules because Airtel demands we do so, is that we are likely to shoot ourselves in the feet in the process.
The foundation of a law is to protect rights. Whose rights are we protecting here? The Consumers? Airtel's?
I think we need to look at what contributes to this so called dominance - perhaps under investment from the other networks? Lack of understanding the local market?
In some countries, this takes a strange twist in that telcos get penalised for failing to achieve certain market conditions - coverage, 3G coverage.
Maybe, rather than penalise Safaricom, we should open up the market for a fourth entrant, based on how much they are going to invest in the market and services they will offer. We should also set a licensing fee that allows them to quickly invest in the market. Alternatively, maybe we should encourage and incentivise MNOs.
Let's not be convinced that the only way to tackle the issues is by dismantling Safaricom. Markets are able to correct dominance by themselves if the conditions are right, maybe we just need to create the right conditions.
On Thursday, 9 July 2015, Mark Mwangi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Are we really trying to say Safaricom is not Dominant? Controlling 80% of the market and probably 90% of the profits.
How they got there is quite irrelevant. Point is they control the market and that cannot be a good thing.
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Three points 1. Competition should be managed without killing innovation- Safaricom is not going to purnished because of their innovations!! The government's objective is to create competitive environment
2. KPLC, KPC are monoploistic companies just like Telcom Kenya before 1998. Tuskeys wanted to buy Ukwala and it was established that if that happens then it could take over 40% of the market share in a liberized market. The sale was stopped at somepoint- Kudos to Competition Authority o Kenya
3. Competition is a global policy issue, the unique thing in Kenya's case is that Safaricom has many division (mobile money, data, Safaricom Business, Voice, Entertainment) which hardly defines its postion in the Telcom market share. In this case Safaricom needs special handling approach.
The secret that airtel have not realized is that it is not about the product, but it is all about the business model. I will try to elaborate this someday.
Regards, Isaac
On 9 July 2015 at 10:08, Leonard Kore via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
soo many pros and cons, but this is a case of punishing innovation and superior strategy, sure they are bullies
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Vincent Mosoti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
While we still on this case, many start-ups have accused Safaricom of 'stealing' and implementing their ideas. Latest case on daily nation today ( http://goo.gl/1PT11Q) . Is this a proof that they(safcom) use all means to remain dominant and control the industry?
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Timothy Yegon via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
If Safaricom is to be broken up for being dominant, what about Kenya Power, Nairobi Water, NHIF or NSSF? Should Naivas, Tusky and Nakumatt be broken up too so that struggling supermarkets like Uchumi can become profitable?
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 15:59 Jangita via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> Not if the successful company was set up dubiously, and the dubious > few earning the billions are no longer in power... Kenyans forget easily. > They probably don't want to share so well, lets just bring them down! > ᐧ > > On 9 July 2015 at 07:47, geoffrey gitagia via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> So in short , if anyone becomes too successful.. Tame them so as fo >> allow the rest to take it easy? … okay just be sure that the company that >> you will establish won't fall to because you worked hard and invested so >> much just to be told that you're too successful for the industry.. Then >> let's take on facebook and limit their users and give hi 5 a fighting >> chance… long story short the government should be on airtel and orange >> face asking them what they're doing wrong and if they can help not stopping >> safaricom from making money that's counter productive >> On Jul 8, 2015 3:57 PM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> How will Kenya convince an investor to invest in its Telcom >>> industry, when competitors are quiting the market because of "percieved >>> anticompetitiveness" from Safaricom? Can a government/CA take sides to >>> improve competitiveness?. >>> >>> I absolutely agree that complex rules create loopholes. I would >>> therefore recommend that measures be taken on case to case basis to create >>> a working and competitive environment. >>> >>> International Telcommunication Union (ITU) provides a guideline to >>> regulators on policy issues on competition. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8 July 2015 at 14:14, Paul Korir <polariseke@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Two points: >>>> >>>> - The market (consumers) will suffer if there is no competition. >>>> However, the government is not the source of competition. Expecting the >>>> government to solve the problem is misplaced optimism. The solution to >>>> market problems are market solutions. I think that Airtel is not >>>> competitive and they are trying to use their lack of competitiveness to >>>> mould the market in their favour. What is needed is a worthy competitor to >>>> Safaricom. "Pwagu hupata pwaguzi. Set a thief to catch a thief." >>>> >>>> - Complex rules make for many loop holes. The rules should be >>>> simple. Evolve or die. The more regulation and handholding the government >>>> imposes the harder it will be to ensure that each new rule is consistent >>>> with previous rules and is not amenable to tweaking. The harder it will be >>>> for non-viable companies to be purged. I will not be surprised if Airtel is >>>> up for sale soon but who knows whether this will improve their lot. >>>> >>>> PK >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8 July 2015 at 12:05, Isaac Kiplagat <isaac.kiplagat@gmail.com >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Paul, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom >>>>> to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to >>>>> leverage competition. >>>>> Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play >>>>> with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. >>>>> 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on >>>>> voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data >>>>> throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. >>>>> 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, >>>>> safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around >>>>> weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism >>>>> in the market. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Isaac >>>>> >>>>> Innova >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is >>>>>> dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim >>>>>> that I admire how organised they are. >>>>>> >>>>>> In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to >>>>>> show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that >>>>>> it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of >>>>>> innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very >>>>>> tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to >>>>>> Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes >>>>>> have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a >>>>>> pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market >>>>>> strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given >>>>>> that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of >>>>>> its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only >>>>>> recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For >>>>>> one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market >>>>>> that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate >>>>>> growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting >>>>>> to see what the relevant authorities rule. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand >>>>>> corrected. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD >>>>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Paul K. Korir, PhD <http://www.paulkorir.com> >>>> +353 86 224 19 66 >>>> *Ordnung muß sein* >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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Isaac Kiplagat, there's something you raised about bundling data and voice. What is Airtel's unliminet supposed to be called? Then, who here has the manuscript on what the other service providers other than safcom are complaining about? Moreover, a copy of the draft bill. All I see are emotions running high and invocation of economic classes and ideologies. Regards. On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:08 Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
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Yes, there is too much bundling across all providers- not only data and voice but also tgether with other services offered. Unfortunately even the complainants are following the same route which complicates the whole industry. Unbundling will affect both Dominant and non-dominant but it will benefit other non-dominant and new entrants. Airtel's complaints is simple- Safaricom share market does not give them fair play for competition. They are asking CA to do something about it. I see we need a copy of the draft bill right here- Good point Ref: http://www.ictregulationtoolkit.org/2 On 9 July 2015 at 14:34, Brian Monyi <monyibrian@gmail.com> wrote:
Isaac Kiplagat, there's something you raised about bundling data and voice. What is Airtel's unliminet supposed to be called?
Then, who here has the manuscript on what the other service providers other than safcom are complaining about? Moreover, a copy of the draft bill.
All I see are emotions running high and invocation of economic classes and ideologies.
Regards.
On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:08 Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
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Meanwhile, in the US, T-Mobile, which has been struggling for years, may have finally become the third largest operator (out of four). <http://www.mobileworldlive.com/t-mobile-offers-free-roaming-mexico-canada-may-grabbed-3-operator-spot?utm_campaign=MWL_20150709&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&elqTrackId=C911DE91B888399929782CCA1E514981&elq=59758442761941388e667cc67c092a7c&elqCampaignId=3987&elqaid=12759&elqat=1> How? They didn't campaign for AT&T to be regulated. They became innovative and started targeting customer pain points aggressively with their "Un-carrier" moves. More about Un-carrier <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Mobile_US#The_.22Un-carrier.22>. Let's not think of regulation as baba na mama. There are other ways. On Thursday, 9 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Yes, there is too much bundling across all providers- not only data and voice but also tgether with other services offered. Unfortunately even the complainants are following the same route which complicates the whole industry. Unbundling will affect both Dominant and non-dominant but it will benefit other non-dominant and new entrants.
Airtel's complaints is simple- Safaricom share market does not give them fair play for competition. They are asking CA to do something about it.
I see we need a copy of the draft bill right here- Good point
Ref: http://www.ictregulationtoolkit.org/2
On 9 July 2015 at 14:34, Brian Monyi <monyibrian@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','monyibrian@gmail.com');>> wrote:
Isaac Kiplagat, there's something you raised about bundling data and voice. What is Airtel's unliminet supposed to be called?
Then, who here has the manuscript on what the other service providers other than safcom are complaining about? Moreover, a copy of the draft bill.
All I see are emotions running high and invocation of economic classes and ideologies.
Regards.
On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:08 Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
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am going to read this thread when i have ample time - looks very entertaining and argumentative. In the meantime i recall; - us fighting to have the KENCELL do per second billing. They didnt understand "kenyan peculia behaviours - flash/flash or nipigie and you abruptly hang up!". At this time they got the who is who in kenya but they forgot that money is with the masses - What also equity taught others :) - us asking them to improve their network over days, both data and voice - what did they do - sell/offload three/four times! - forget even "their" money - a long process with no agents and tiresome. - THAT, in 2008/7 thereabout when zain came in, they got all of us in with their mouth watering rates - but later hood-winked us without notice and pulled the rates - bado waambie nakumbuka - i still see my sim-card in my home archive and everytime i recall the moment. - Black-spots all over the country - did i say Nairobi too and its environs? I have strong EVIDENCE on this. In-as-much as we would want to promote them and bicker all day about dominance, a long journey starts with one step -build network and people will come. Cheap is expensive on this matter. E&OE Kind Regards, Wilson./ On 9 July 2015 at 17:46, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Meanwhile, in the US, T-Mobile, which has been struggling for years, may have finally become the third largest operator (out of four). <http://www.mobileworldlive.com/t-mobile-offers-free-roaming-mexico-canada-may-grabbed-3-operator-spot?utm_campaign=MWL_20150709&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&elqTrackId=C911DE91B888399929782CCA1E514981&elq=59758442761941388e667cc67c092a7c&elqCampaignId=3987&elqaid=12759&elqat=1>
How? They didn't campaign for AT&T to be regulated. They became innovative and started targeting customer pain points aggressively with their "Un-carrier" moves.
More about Un-carrier <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Mobile_US#The_.22Un-carrier.22>.
Let's not think of regulation as baba na mama. There are other ways.
On Thursday, 9 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Yes, there is too much bundling across all providers- not only data and voice but also tgether with other services offered. Unfortunately even the complainants are following the same route which complicates the whole industry. Unbundling will affect both Dominant and non-dominant but it will benefit other non-dominant and new entrants.
Airtel's complaints is simple- Safaricom share market does not give them fair play for competition. They are asking CA to do something about it.
I see we need a copy of the draft bill right here- Good point
Ref: http://www.ictregulationtoolkit.org/2
On 9 July 2015 at 14:34, Brian Monyi <monyibrian@gmail.com> wrote:
Isaac Kiplagat, there's something you raised about bundling data and voice. What is Airtel's unliminet supposed to be called?
Then, who here has the manuscript on what the other service providers other than safcom are complaining about? Moreover, a copy of the draft bill.
All I see are emotions running high and invocation of economic classes and ideologies.
Regards.
On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:08 Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
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-- with Regards:
blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/>
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There's nothing wrong with Safaricom being declared the dominant player in the market however there will be a problem when upon declaration of dominance if Safaricom abuses that position through anticompetitive behavior. This as per law that was passed would attract a fine not less than 10% of Safcom gross turnover. Safaricom's objection to being declared the dominant player is because even without the tag of dominance it already exhibits anti competitive antics. In the European markets a player is considered dominant if either individually or jointly with others, it enjoys a position of economic strength affording it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of competitors, customers and ultimately Consumers". Generally Safaricom is already behaving this way. Right now it's only Safaricom that can increase it's calling rate and we will still be locked. Revisit the number portability flop and you will see Safcom all over it. On the other hand Airtel keeps playing in the hands of Safcom... personally I dislike unsolicited smses ...Airtel sends 20 in a day. I could be wrong Isaac Kiplagat, there's something you raised about bundling data and voice. What is Airtel's unliminet supposed to be called? Then, who here has the manuscript on what the other service providers other than safcom are complaining about? Moreover, a copy of the draft bill. All I see are emotions running high and invocation of economic classes and ideologies. Regards. On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:08 Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Paul,
There are so many underlying factors that has led to safaricom to be a barrier to competition itself. Innovation is positive gear to leverage competition. Safaricom has 3 main products; Mpesa, Data and Voice. They play with three aspects in throwing this people out of market. 1. When zain entered the market with serious investment on voice- Safaricom reduced their voice rates and maximised on Mpesa and Data throwing zain out of the market. There are hundreds of similar cases. 2. The current ICT policy does not allow bundling of services, safaricom has invisibly bundled data, mpesa and voice by playing around weakness in the policy. This policy need to be updated to tuckle dynamism in the market.
Regards, Isaac
Innova
On 8 July 2015 at 13:49, Paul Korir via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I've been disturbed by the Airtel's claims that Safaricom is dominant. I am no apologist for Safaricom but would not defend the claim that I admire how organised they are.
In order for Airtel's claim to be sustained, they would have to show that they has been equally competitive. They would have to show that it is primarily due to Safaricom's supposed dominance and not their lack of innovation that has let to them being uncompetitive. I think that is a very tough call for them given than they have changed hands thrice (Kencell to Celtel to Zain to Airtel). They would have to show that these brand changes have not had any adverse effect on their market position. Airtel is a pan-African corporation and it could also be the case that their market strategy is homogenous and disregards local cultural differences (given that Kenyans have 'peculiar' habits). I am not aware that Airtel (or any of its previous incarnations) has ever returned a remarkable profit. I only recall once seeing mention of Ksh.64 million profit in either 2006 or 2007.
There are serious consequences riding on this decision. For one, a verdict of Safaricom being dominant will communicate to the market that there are size limits that the government should impose on corporate growth, which could keep multinationals at bay. It will be very interesting to see what the relevant authorities rule.
If anyone has information to the contrary on the above, I stand corrected.
-- Regards,
Paul K. Korir, PhD +353 86 224 19 66 *Ordnung muß sein*
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-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
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I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both. One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down. I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end? Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly. Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law. And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman. PO On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Jared Koyier via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Safaricom being declared the dominant player in the market however there will be a problem when upon declaration of dominance if Safaricom abuses that position through anticompetitive behavior. This as per law that was passed would attract a fine not less than 10% of Safcom gross turnover. Safaricom's objection to being declared the dominant player is because even without the tag of dominance it already exhibits anti competitive antics. In the European markets a player is considered dominant if either individually or jointly with others, it enjoys a position of economic strength affording it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of competitors, customers and ultimately Consumers".
Seems like most of these problems have to do with poor service from the telcos. Competition can fix these-let the telcos duke it out, auction 4G licenses, fibre etc and let consumers decide what's best. Market controls only hurt us all in the long run. Protecting mediocre service providers is completely counterintuitive considering how bad all the networks already are. On Jul 11, 2015 1:53 PM, "Peter Osotsi via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
PO
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Jared Koyier via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Safaricom being declared the dominant player in the market however there will be a problem when upon declaration of dominance if Safaricom abuses that position through anticompetitive behavior. This as per law that was passed would attract a fine not less than 10% of Safcom gross turnover. Safaricom's objection to being declared the dominant player is because even without the tag of dominance it already exhibits anti competitive antics. In the European markets a player is considered dominant if either individually or jointly with others, it enjoys a position of economic strength affording it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of competitors, customers and ultimately Consumers".
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Let me add that to me it seems its easier for Airtel to gain market share in the corrupt riddled government institutions, than in the open marketplace where innovation and brand loyalty thrives. They'd rather perpetuate a vice that is anathema to this nation, a cancer that has refused to wane, than face Safaricom in the court of public opinion. Boardroom decisions in government offices have given our state officers access to unbridled wealth and power through corruption, the Indians know it well. Let me give them my word, they will fail. Their brand has to reflect our pride, loyalty and ambition. So far, not even their employees, most of them, especially those contact centre employees, or IT staff, exude their brand. Pray how does other Kenyans own such a brand? Pray, why do we have anti corruption bill board messages outside government offices yet inside deals are cutting left, centre, right and so on. Do we even have faith in the decisions these institutions make? They have killed registered legitimate brewers just like the killer brews that come from the neighbourhoods which are run mostly by the governments own employees. So we have amputated the foot just because the foot has a jigger! How sad! PO On Jul 11, 2015 1:48 PM, "Peter Osotsi" <peter.osotsi@gmail.com> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
PO
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Jared Koyier via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Safaricom being declared the dominant player in the market however there will be a problem when upon declaration of dominance if Safaricom abuses that position through anticompetitive behavior. This as per law that was passed would attract a fine not less than 10% of Safcom gross turnover. Safaricom's objection to being declared the dominant player is because even without the tag of dominance it already exhibits anti competitive antics. In the European markets a player is considered dominant if either individually or jointly with others, it enjoys a position of economic strength affording it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of competitors, customers and ultimately Consumers".
@ Peter Osotsi Can I send you my CV. Safaricom is a very small company, in comparison to Bharti and China Telecom. The last price war they faced made them emerge leaner and more efficient and now they are a well oiled machine. It will be difficult to bring them down on a fair ground. I am all for fair competition, let people reap that which they sow. On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Let me add that to me it seems its easier for Airtel to gain market share in the corrupt riddled government institutions, than in the open marketplace where innovation and brand loyalty thrives.
They'd rather perpetuate a vice that is anathema to this nation, a cancer that has refused to wane, than face Safaricom in the court of public opinion. Boardroom decisions in government offices have given our state officers access to unbridled wealth and power through corruption, the Indians know it well.
Let me give them my word, they will fail. Their brand has to reflect our pride, loyalty and ambition. So far, not even their employees, most of them, especially those contact centre employees, or IT staff, exude their brand. Pray how does other Kenyans own such a brand?
Pray, why do we have anti corruption bill board messages outside government offices yet inside deals are cutting left, centre, right and so on. Do we even have faith in the decisions these institutions make?
They have killed registered legitimate brewers just like the killer brews that come from the neighbourhoods which are run mostly by the governments own employees.
So we have amputated the foot just because the foot has a jigger! How sad!
PO On Jul 11, 2015 1:48 PM, "Peter Osotsi" <peter.osotsi@gmail.com> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
PO
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Jared Koyier via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Safaricom being declared the dominant player in the market however there will be a problem when upon declaration of dominance if Safaricom abuses that position through anticompetitive behavior. This as per law that was passed would attract a fine not less than 10% of Safcom gross turnover. Safaricom's objection to being declared the dominant player is because even without the tag of dominance it already exhibits anti competitive antics. In the European markets a player is considered dominant if either individually or jointly with others, it enjoys a position of economic strength affording it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of competitors, customers and ultimately Consumers".
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-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
Speaking as someone who "ported" to airtel for a while, I agree with @Peter, their service sucks. So many parts of Nairobi have no clear signal (inside nakumatt prestige for example), also out of town forget 3G (and in many small towns Internet all together), and on long stretches of road you are virtually guaranteed no network. They do not deserve to be protected at all, they need to up their game and fight it out, same way T-Mobile and other smaller companies are fighting AT & T etc. I do not see how Safaricom is using their market position to stifle competition. Regards, John K. On 12 July 2015 at 14:48, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Peter Osotsi
Can I send you my CV.
Safaricom is a very small company, in comparison to Bharti and China Telecom. The last price war they faced made them emerge leaner and more efficient and now they are a well oiled machine. It will be difficult to bring them down on a fair ground. I am all for fair competition, let people reap that which they sow.
On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Let me add that to me it seems its easier for Airtel to gain market share in the corrupt riddled government institutions, than in the open marketplace where innovation and brand loyalty thrives.
They'd rather perpetuate a vice that is anathema to this nation, a cancer that has refused to wane, than face Safaricom in the court of public opinion. Boardroom decisions in government offices have given our state officers access to unbridled wealth and power through corruption, the Indians know it well.
Let me give them my word, they will fail. Their brand has to reflect our pride, loyalty and ambition. So far, not even their employees, most of them, especially those contact centre employees, or IT staff, exude their brand. Pray how does other Kenyans own such a brand?
Pray, why do we have anti corruption bill board messages outside government offices yet inside deals are cutting left, centre, right and so on. Do we even have faith in the decisions these institutions make?
They have killed registered legitimate brewers just like the killer brews that come from the neighbourhoods which are run mostly by the governments own employees.
So we have amputated the foot just because the foot has a jigger! How sad!
PO On Jul 11, 2015 1:48 PM, "Peter Osotsi" <peter.osotsi@gmail.com> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
PO
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Jared Koyier via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Safaricom being declared the dominant player in the market however there will be a problem when upon declaration of dominance if Safaricom abuses that position through anticompetitive behavior. This as per law that was passed would attract a fine not less than 10% of Safcom gross turnover. Safaricom's objection to being declared the dominant player is because even without the tag of dominance it already exhibits anti competitive antics. In the European markets a player is considered dominant if either individually or jointly with others, it enjoys a position of economic strength affording it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of competitors, customers and ultimately Consumers".
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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Innovation is good, monopoly is baad. I don't see a reason why we will complain of Kenya Power's monopoly while cheering another player to attain the same position. Me thinks regulation is a good thing. It may not be about breaking up Safaricom but being put to task to operate within acceptable standards will be fair to consumers. On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 6:58 PM, John K. via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Speaking as someone who "ported" to airtel for a while, I agree with @Peter, their service sucks. So many parts of Nairobi have no clear signal (inside nakumatt prestige for example), also out of town forget 3G (and in many small towns Internet all together), and on long stretches of road you are virtually guaranteed no network. They do not deserve to be protected at all, they need to up their game and fight it out, same way T-Mobile and other smaller companies are fighting AT & T etc. I do not see how Safaricom is using their market position to stifle competition.
Regards, John K.
On 12 July 2015 at 14:48, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Peter Osotsi
Can I send you my CV.
Safaricom is a very small company, in comparison to Bharti and China Telecom. The last price war they faced made them emerge leaner and more efficient and now they are a well oiled machine. It will be difficult to bring them down on a fair ground. I am all for fair competition, let people reap that which they sow.
On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Let me add that to me it seems its easier for Airtel to gain market share in the corrupt riddled government institutions, than in the open marketplace where innovation and brand loyalty thrives.
They'd rather perpetuate a vice that is anathema to this nation, a cancer that has refused to wane, than face Safaricom in the court of public opinion. Boardroom decisions in government offices have given our state officers access to unbridled wealth and power through corruption, the Indians know it well.
Let me give them my word, they will fail. Their brand has to reflect our pride, loyalty and ambition. So far, not even their employees, most of them, especially those contact centre employees, or IT staff, exude their brand. Pray how does other Kenyans own such a brand?
Pray, why do we have anti corruption bill board messages outside government offices yet inside deals are cutting left, centre, right and so on. Do we even have faith in the decisions these institutions make?
They have killed registered legitimate brewers just like the killer brews that come from the neighbourhoods which are run mostly by the governments own employees.
So we have amputated the foot just because the foot has a jigger! How sad!
PO On Jul 11, 2015 1:48 PM, "Peter Osotsi" <peter.osotsi@gmail.com> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
PO
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Jared Koyier via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Safaricom being declared the dominant player in the market however there will be a problem when upon declaration of dominance if Safaricom abuses that position through anticompetitive behavior. This as per law that was passed would attract a fine not less than 10% of Safcom gross turnover. Safaricom's objection to being declared the dominant player is because even without the tag of dominance it already exhibits anti competitive antics. In the European markets a player is considered dominant if either individually or jointly with others, it enjoys a position of economic strength affording it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of competitors, customers and ultimately Consumers".
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Vincent Mosoti, Analytics/Business Intelligence. Skype: vmmosoti Phone: +254 722 972 805 LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti
@vincent Mosoti, None of the Telco has a signed contract between it and its client. That way everyone is free to do as they please because T&C are dictated by the Telco and can vary from time to time. The presence of competition is what is keeping everyone in check. If we remove the competition or try and influence it then we will all be in trouble On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 11:21 PM, Vincent Mosoti <kindvinnie@gmail.com> wrote:
Innovation is good, monopoly is baad. I don't see a reason why we will complain of Kenya Power's monopoly while cheering another player to attain the same position. Me thinks regulation is a good thing. It may not be about breaking up Safaricom but being put to task to operate within acceptable standards will be fair to consumers.
On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 6:58 PM, John K. via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Speaking as someone who "ported" to airtel for a while, I agree with @Peter, their service sucks. So many parts of Nairobi have no clear signal (inside nakumatt prestige for example), also out of town forget 3G (and in many small towns Internet all together), and on long stretches of road you are virtually guaranteed no network. They do not deserve to be protected at all, they need to up their game and fight it out, same way T-Mobile and other smaller companies are fighting AT & T etc. I do not see how Safaricom is using their market position to stifle competition.
Regards, John K.
On 12 July 2015 at 14:48, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Peter Osotsi
Can I send you my CV.
Safaricom is a very small company, in comparison to Bharti and China Telecom. The last price war they faced made them emerge leaner and more efficient and now they are a well oiled machine. It will be difficult to bring them down on a fair ground. I am all for fair competition, let people reap that which they sow.
On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Let me add that to me it seems its easier for Airtel to gain market share in the corrupt riddled government institutions, than in the open marketplace where innovation and brand loyalty thrives.
They'd rather perpetuate a vice that is anathema to this nation, a cancer that has refused to wane, than face Safaricom in the court of public opinion. Boardroom decisions in government offices have given our state officers access to unbridled wealth and power through corruption, the Indians know it well.
Let me give them my word, they will fail. Their brand has to reflect our pride, loyalty and ambition. So far, not even their employees, most of them, especially those contact centre employees, or IT staff, exude their brand. Pray how does other Kenyans own such a brand?
Pray, why do we have anti corruption bill board messages outside government offices yet inside deals are cutting left, centre, right and so on. Do we even have faith in the decisions these institutions make?
They have killed registered legitimate brewers just like the killer brews that come from the neighbourhoods which are run mostly by the governments own employees.
So we have amputated the foot just because the foot has a jigger! How sad!
PO On Jul 11, 2015 1:48 PM, "Peter Osotsi" <peter.osotsi@gmail.com> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
PO
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Jared Koyier via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Safaricom being declared the dominant player in the market however there will be a problem when upon declaration of dominance if Safaricom abuses that position through anticompetitive behavior. This as per law that was passed would attract a fine not less than 10% of Safcom gross turnover. Safaricom's objection to being declared the dominant player is because even without the tag of dominance it already exhibits anti competitive antics. In the European markets a player is considered dominant if either individually or jointly with others, it enjoys a position of economic strength affording it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of competitors, customers and ultimately Consumers".
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Vincent Mosoti, Analytics/Business Intelligence. Skype: vmmosoti Phone: +254 722 972 805 LinkedIn: ke.linkedin.com/in/vmosoti
-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. Kind Regards, Wilson./
Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. Regards,Isaac On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than " *these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos.
Kind Regards, Wilson./
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms are helping management cook books. I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and decisions should be over. Engineering companies are dying because - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other developed nations in most technologies. - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is all about perception. Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally.
Regards,Isaac
On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than " *these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos.
Kind Regards, Wilson./
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
Stephen, It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. Rgds, Isaac Kiplagat On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms are helping management cook books.
I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements
As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and decisions should be over.
Engineering companies are dying because
- Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other developed nations in most technologies. - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced
Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is all about perception.
Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth.
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally.
Regards,Isaac
On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than " *these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos.
Kind Regards, Wilson./
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector approach to taxation. The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's returns are above global industry average http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Stephen,
It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. Rgds, Isaac Kiplagat
On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kamitu.sm@gmail.com');>> wrote:
We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms are helping management cook books.
I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements
As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and decisions should be over.
Engineering companies are dying because
- Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other developed nations in most technologies. - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced
Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is all about perception.
Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth.
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally.
Regards,Isaac
On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than " *these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos.
Kind Regards, Wilson./
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- with Regards: blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/>
@dennis, I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a whole On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector approach to taxation.
The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's returns are above global industry average http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-...
On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Stephen,
It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. Rgds, Isaac Kiplagat
On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms are helping management cook books.
I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements
As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and decisions should be over.
Engineering companies are dying because
- Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other developed nations in most technologies. - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced
Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is all about perception.
Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth.
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally.
Regards,Isaac
On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than " *these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos.
Kind Regards, Wilson./
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- with Regards:
blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/>
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there?
We should rejoice while the party lasts. PO On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@dennis,
I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a whole
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector approach to taxation.
The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's returns are above global industry average http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-...
On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Stephen,
It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. Rgds, Isaac Kiplagat
On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms are helping management cook books.
I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements
As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and decisions should be over.
Engineering companies are dying because
- Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other developed nations in most technologies. - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced
Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is all about perception.
Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth.
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally.
Regards,Isaac
On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im > both. > > One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage > more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. > Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our > economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom > is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a > government breaking down a small company, I get sad. > > As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, > particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, > jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home > hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are > geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to > support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. > > As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from > don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous > times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than > Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money > without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing > government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can > be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we > look south, they steal from us. > Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. > These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay > taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring > profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for > the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing > and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who > know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close > down. > > I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: > 1. I keep on loosing data bundles > 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble > with my wife > 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price > increasing without notice > 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal > 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere > in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. > 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on > 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services > will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end? > > Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? > > As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a > product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being > called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of > them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation > are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they > invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable > and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. > > They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the > country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else > knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will > backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" > bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. > > If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful > you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be > forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but > Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo > us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the > United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, > however costly. > > Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love > with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I > make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have > been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say > those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge > high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never > leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was > a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway > halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was > killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it > cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law. > > And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates > that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor > remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the > contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as > a layman. >
You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than " *these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos.
Kind Regards, Wilson./
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- with Regards:
blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/>
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
@ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive rates. Regards Edward On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there?
We should rejoice while the party lasts.
PO On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@dennis,
I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a whole
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector approach to taxation.
The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's returns are above global industry average http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-...
On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Stephen,
It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. Rgds, Isaac Kiplagat
On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms are helping management cook books.
I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements
As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and decisions should be over.
Engineering companies are dying because
- Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other developed nations in most technologies. - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced
Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is all about perception.
Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth.
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally.
Regards,Isaac
On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> > On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since >> im both. >> >> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage >> more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. >> Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our >> economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom >> is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a >> government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >> >> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, >> particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, >> jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home >> hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are >> geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >> >> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from >> don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous >> times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than >> Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money >> without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing >> government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can >> be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we >> look south, they steal from us. >> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. >> These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay >> taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring >> profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for >> the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing >> and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who >> know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close >> down. >> >> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble >> with my wife >> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price >> increasing without notice >> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere >> in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. >> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on >> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services >> will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end? >> >> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? >> >> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a >> product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being >> called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of >> them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation >> are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they >> invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable >> and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >> >> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the >> country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >> >> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful >> you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be >> forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but >> Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo >> us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the >> United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >> however costly. >> >> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love >> with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I >> make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have >> been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say >> those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge >> high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never >> leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was >> a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway >> halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was >> killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it >> cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law. >> >> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates >> that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor >> remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the >> contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as >> a layman. >> > > You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should > not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. > SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than " > *these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success > while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. > > > > Kind Regards, > Wilson./ > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- with Regards:
blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/>
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Fellows, Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance by a given player or for lack of competition? Rgds. Anthony On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive rates.
Regards Edward
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there?
We should rejoice while the party lasts.
PO On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@dennis,
I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a whole
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector approach to taxation.
The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's returns are above global industry average http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-...
On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Stephen,
It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. Rgds, Isaac Kiplagat
On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms are helping management cook books.
I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements
As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and decisions should be over.
Engineering companies are dying because
- Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other developed nations in most technologies. - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced
Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is all about perception.
Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth.
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will > have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. > > Regards,Isaac > > On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> >> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since >>> im both. >>> >>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage >>> more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. >>> Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our >>> economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom >>> is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a >>> government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>> >>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, >>> particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, >>> jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home >>> hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are >>> geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>> >>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from >>> don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous >>> times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than >>> Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money >>> without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing >>> government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can >>> be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we >>> look south, they steal from us. >>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. >>> These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay >>> taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring >>> profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for >>> the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing >>> and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who >>> know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close >>> down. >>> >>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble >>> with my wife >>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price >>> increasing without notice >>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative >>> anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without >>> sweating. >>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on >>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services >>> will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end? >>> >>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? >>> >>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a >>> product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being >>> called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of >>> them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation >>> are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they >>> invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable >>> and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>> >>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the >>> country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>> >>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>> however costly. >>> >>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love >>> with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I >>> make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have >>> been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say >>> those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge >>> high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never >>> leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was >>> a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway >>> halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was >>> killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it >>> cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law. >>> >>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>> as a layman. >>> >> >> You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should >> not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. >> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than >> "*these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success >> while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >> >> >> >> Kind Regards, >> Wilson./ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > > -- > Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® > > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- with Regards:
blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/>
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--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
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@Peter, I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. Tony On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Fellows,
Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance by a given player or for lack of competition?
Rgds.
Anthony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive rates.
Regards Edward
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there?
We should rejoice while the party lasts.
PO On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@dennis,
I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a whole
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector approach to taxation.
The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's returns are above global industry average http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-...
On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Stephen,
It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. Rgds, Isaac Kiplagat
On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if > someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we > need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped > by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms > are helping management cook books. > > I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people > were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. > By studying our politicians we can make general statements > > As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying > and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and > decisions should be over. > > Engineering companies are dying because > > - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little > investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other > developed nations in most technologies. > - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting > or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, > implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target > and potential markets. > - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its > our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to > steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To > cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point > they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and > continue eating. > - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a > constant brain drain is being experienced > > > Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in > marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is > all about perception. > > Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make > money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. > > > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will >> have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >> >> Regards,Isaac >> >> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since >>>> im both. >>>> >>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage >>>> more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. >>>> Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our >>>> economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom >>>> is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a >>>> government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>> >>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that >>>> I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, >>>> jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home >>>> hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are >>>> geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>> >>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from >>>> don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous >>>> times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than >>>> Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money >>>> without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing >>>> government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can >>>> be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we >>>> look south, they steal from us. >>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. >>>> These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay >>>> taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring >>>> profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for >>>> the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing >>>> and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who >>>> know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close >>>> down. >>>> >>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble >>>> with my wife >>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price >>>> increasing without notice >>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative >>>> anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without >>>> sweating. >>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on >>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services >>>> will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end? >>>> >>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? >>>> >>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a >>>> product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being >>>> called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of >>>> them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation >>>> are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they >>>> invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable >>>> and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>> >>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the >>>> country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>> >>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>> however costly. >>>> >>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love >>>> with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I >>>> make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have >>>> been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say >>>> those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge >>>> high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never >>>> leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was >>>> a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway >>>> halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was >>>> killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it >>>> cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law. >>>> >>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>> as a layman. >>>> >>> >>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM >>> should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. >>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better >>> than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their >>> success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind Regards, >>> Wilson./ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > > -- > > Best Regards, > Stephen Munguti. > > +254720425104 >
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
-- with Regards:
blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/>
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
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@Edward, Do you mean another country in Africa or globally? Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation). Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter. Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom? Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates. On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Peter, I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers.
Tony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Fellows,
Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance by a given player or for lack of competition?
Rgds.
Anthony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive rates.
Regards Edward
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there?
We should rejoice while the party lasts.
PO On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@dennis,
I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a whole
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector approach to taxation.
The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's returns are above global industry average http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-...
On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> Stephen, > > It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading > taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to > discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this > is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for > taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. > Rgds, > Isaac Kiplagat > > > On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if >> someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we >> need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped >> by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms >> are helping management cook books. >> >> I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people >> were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. >> By studying our politicians we can make general statements >> >> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying >> and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and >> decisions should be over. >> >> Engineering companies are dying because >> >> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little >> investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other >> developed nations in most technologies. >> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting >> or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, >> implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target >> and potential markets. >> - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its >> our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to >> steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To >> cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point >> they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and >> continue eating. >> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a >> constant brain drain is being experienced >> >> >> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in >> marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is >> all about perception. >> >> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make >> money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will >>> have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>> >>> Regards,Isaac >>> >>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, >>>>> since im both. >>>>> >>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage >>>>> more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. >>>>> Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our >>>>> economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom >>>>> is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a >>>>> government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>> >>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that >>>>> I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, >>>>> jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home >>>>> hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are >>>>> geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>> >>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from >>>>> don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous >>>>> times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than >>>>> Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money >>>>> without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing >>>>> government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can >>>>> be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we >>>>> look south, they steal from us. >>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid >>>>> Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they >>>>> don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by >>>>> declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having >>>>> something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>> >>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble >>>>> with my wife >>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price >>>>> increasing without notice >>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative >>>>> anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without >>>>> sweating. >>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on >>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the >>>>> services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free >>>>> offer end? >>>>> >>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? >>>>> >>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise >>>>> a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being >>>>> called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of >>>>> them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation >>>>> are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they >>>>> invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable >>>>> and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>> >>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the >>>>> country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>>>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>>>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>>>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>> >>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>>>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>> however costly. >>>>> >>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in >>>>> love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a >>>>> while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>> that law. >>>>> >>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>> as a layman. >>>>> >>>> >>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM >>>> should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. >>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better >>>> than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their >>>> success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind Regards, >>>> Wilson./ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Best Regards, >> Stephen Munguti. >> >> +254720425104 >> > > > > -- > Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® > > >
-- with Regards:
blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/>
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+254720425104
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@ Brian, The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what profit margins did they report they last financial year? regards On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Edward, Do you mean another country in Africa or globally?
Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation).
Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter.
Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom?
Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Peter, I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers.
Tony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Fellows,
Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance by a given player or for lack of competition?
Rgds.
Anthony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive rates.
Regards Edward
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there?
We should rejoice while the party lasts.
PO On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@dennis,
I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a whole
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector > approach to taxation. > > The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle > on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's > returns are above global industry average > http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... > > > On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> Stephen, >> >> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading >> taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to >> discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this >> is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for >> taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >> Rgds, >> Isaac Kiplagat >> >> >> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if >>> someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we >>> need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped >>> by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms >>> are helping management cook books. >>> >>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that these >>> people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>> >>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying >>> and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and >>> decisions should be over. >>> >>> Engineering companies are dying because >>> >>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little >>> investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other >>> developed nations in most technologies. >>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>> the target and potential markets. >>> - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its >>> our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to >>> steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To >>> cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point >>> they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and >>> continue eating. >>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a >>> constant brain drain is being experienced >>> >>> >>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in >>> marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is >>> all about perception. >>> >>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make >>> money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will >>>> have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>> >>>> Regards,Isaac >>>> >>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, >>>>>> since im both. >>>>>> >>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>> >>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that >>>>>> I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, >>>>>> jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home >>>>>> hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are >>>>>> geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>> >>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart >>>>>> from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold >>>>>> numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company >>>>>> than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money >>>>>> without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing >>>>>> government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can >>>>>> be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we >>>>>> look south, they steal from us. >>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid >>>>>> Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they >>>>>> don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by >>>>>> declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having >>>>>> something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>> >>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in >>>>>> trouble with my wife >>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price >>>>>> increasing without notice >>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative >>>>>> anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without >>>>>> sweating. >>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on >>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the >>>>>> services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free >>>>>> offer end? >>>>>> >>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? >>>>>> >>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise >>>>>> a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being >>>>>> called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of >>>>>> them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation >>>>>> are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they >>>>>> invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable >>>>>> and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>> >>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the >>>>>> country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>>>>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>>>>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>>>>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>> >>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>>>>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>> however costly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in >>>>>> love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a >>>>>> while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>> that law. >>>>>> >>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>>> as a layman. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM >>>>> should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. >>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better >>>>> than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their >>>>> success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>> Wilson./ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Stephen Munguti. >>> >>> +254720425104 >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >> >> >> > > -- > with Regards: > > blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
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@brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing MPesa. How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing negative returns on their investment. PO On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Brian,
The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what profit margins did they report they last financial year?
regards
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Edward, Do you mean another country in Africa or globally?
Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation).
Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter.
Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom?
Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Peter, I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers.
Tony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Fellows,
Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance by a given player or for lack of competition?
Rgds.
Anthony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive rates.
Regards Edward
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there?
We should rejoice while the party lasts.
PO On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> @dennis, > > I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can compare > voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a whole > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector >> approach to taxation. >> >> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle >> on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's >> returns are above global industry average >> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >> >> >> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> Stephen, >>> >>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading >>> taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to >>> discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this >>> is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for >>> taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>> Rgds, >>> Isaac Kiplagat >>> >>> >>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if >>>> someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we >>>> need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped >>>> by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms >>>> are helping management cook books. >>>> >>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that these >>>> people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>> >>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are >>>> saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and >>>> decisions should be over. >>>> >>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>> >>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little >>>> investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other >>>> developed nations in most technologies. >>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>> the target and potential markets. >>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy >>>> (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to >>>> steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To >>>> cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point >>>> they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and >>>> continue eating. >>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a >>>> constant brain drain is being experienced >>>> >>>> >>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in >>>> marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is >>>> all about perception. >>>> >>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make >>>> money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders >>>>> will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>> >>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>> >>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, >>>>>>> since im both. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such >>>>>>> that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart >>>>>>> from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold >>>>>>> numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company >>>>>>> than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money >>>>>>> without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing >>>>>>> government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can >>>>>>> be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we >>>>>>> look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid >>>>>>> Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they >>>>>>> don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>> declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having >>>>>>> something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in >>>>>>> trouble with my wife >>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price >>>>>>> increasing without notice >>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative >>>>>>> anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without >>>>>>> sweating. >>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on >>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the >>>>>>> services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free >>>>>>> offer end? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the >>>>>>> country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>>>>>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>>>>>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>>>>>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>>>>>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>>> however costly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in >>>>>>> love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a >>>>>>> while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>>>> as a layman. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM >>>>>> should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. >>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better >>>>>> than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for >>>>>> their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>> >>>> +254720425104 >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> with Regards: >> >> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > > -- > > Best Regards, > Stephen Munguti. > > +254720425104 > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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as mentioned ealrier, - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing MPesa.
How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing negative returns on their investment.
PO On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Brian,
The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what profit margins did they report they last financial year?
regards
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Edward, Do you mean another country in Africa or globally?
Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation).
Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter.
Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom?
Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Peter, I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers.
Tony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Fellows,
Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance by a given player or for lack of competition?
Rgds.
Anthony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive rates.
Regards Edward
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are very > competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel > blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text > message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? > > We should rejoice while the party lasts. > > PO > On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> @dennis, >> >> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can >> compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >> whole >> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector >>> approach to taxation. >>> >>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle >>> on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's >>> returns are above global industry average >>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>> >>> >>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> Stephen, >>>> >>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading >>>> taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to >>>> discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this >>>> is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for >>>> taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>> Rgds, >>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>> >>>> >>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if >>>>> someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we >>>>> need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped >>>>> by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms >>>>> are helping management cook books. >>>>> >>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that these >>>>> people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>> >>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are >>>>> saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and >>>>> decisions should be over. >>>>> >>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>> >>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little >>>>> investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other >>>>> developed nations in most technologies. >>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy >>>>> (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to >>>>> steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To >>>>> cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point >>>>> they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and >>>>> continue eating. >>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a >>>>> constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in >>>>> marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is >>>>> all about perception. >>>>> >>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make >>>>> money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks >>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders >>>>>> will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>> >>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, >>>>>>>> since im both. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such >>>>>>>> that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart >>>>>>>> from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold >>>>>>>> numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company >>>>>>>> than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money >>>>>>>> without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing >>>>>>>> government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can >>>>>>>> be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we >>>>>>>> look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid >>>>>>>> Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they >>>>>>>> don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>> declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having >>>>>>>> something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in >>>>>>>> trouble with my wife >>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price >>>>>>>> increasing without notice >>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative >>>>>>>> anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without >>>>>>>> sweating. >>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on >>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the >>>>>>>> services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free >>>>>>>> offer end? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the >>>>>>>> country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>>>>>>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>>>>>>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>>>>>>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>>>>>>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>>>> however costly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in >>>>>>>> love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a >>>>>>>> while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>>>>> as a layman. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM >>>>>>> should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. >>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better >>>>>>> than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for >>>>>>> their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Best Regards, >>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>> >>>>> +254720425104 >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> with Regards: >>> >>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Best Regards, >> Stephen Munguti. >> >> +254720425104 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list. Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth even 15k bob (nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK) http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr... On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
as mentioned ealrier,
- There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating.
if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing MPesa.
How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing negative returns on their investment.
PO On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Brian,
The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what profit margins did they report they last financial year?
regards
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Edward, Do you mean another country in Africa or globally?
Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation).
Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter.
Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom?
Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Peter, I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers.
Tony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Fellows,
Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance by a given player or for lack of competition?
Rgds.
Anthony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive > rates. > > Regards > Edward > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are >> very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel >> blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text >> message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >> >> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >> >> PO >> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> @dennis, >>> >>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can >>> compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>> whole >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector >>>> approach to taxation. >>>> >>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel >>>> battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Stephen, >>>>> >>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of >>>>> evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral >>>>> right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause >>>>> for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules >>>>> for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>> Rgds, >>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if >>>>>> someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we >>>>>> need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped >>>>>> by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms >>>>>> are helping management cook books. >>>>>> >>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that these >>>>>> people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>> >>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are >>>>>> saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and >>>>>> decisions should be over. >>>>>> >>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>> >>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore >>>>>> little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the >>>>>> other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy >>>>>> (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to >>>>>> steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To >>>>>> cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point >>>>>> they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and >>>>>> continue eating. >>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning >>>>>> a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in >>>>>> marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is >>>>>> all about perception. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make >>>>>> money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks >>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders >>>>>>> will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, >>>>>>>>> since im both. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such >>>>>>>>> that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart >>>>>>>>> from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold >>>>>>>>> numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company >>>>>>>>> than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money >>>>>>>>> without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing >>>>>>>>> government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can >>>>>>>>> be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we >>>>>>>>> look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid >>>>>>>>> Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they >>>>>>>>> don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>> declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having >>>>>>>>> something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in >>>>>>>>> trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the >>>>>>>>> price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative >>>>>>>>> anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without >>>>>>>>> sweating. >>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on >>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the >>>>>>>>> services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free >>>>>>>>> offer end? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across >>>>>>>>> the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>>>>>>>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>>>>>>>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>>>>>>>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>>>>>>>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>>>>> however costly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in >>>>>>>>> love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a >>>>>>>>> while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>>>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>>>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>>>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>>>>>> as a layman. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM >>>>>>>> should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. >>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times >>>>>>>> better than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be punished >>>>>>>> for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>> >>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> with Regards: >>>> >>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Stephen Munguti. >>> >>> +254720425104 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
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@Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a statistical fact. On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list.
Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth even 15k bob
(nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK)
http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr...
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
as mentioned ealrier,
- There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating.
if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing MPesa.
How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing negative returns on their investment.
PO On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Brian,
The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what profit margins did they report they last financial year?
regards
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Edward, Do you mean another country in Africa or globally?
Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation).
Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter.
Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom?
Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Peter, I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers.
Tony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> Fellows, > > Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance by > a given player or for lack of competition? > > Rgds. > > Anthony > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive >> rates. >> >> Regards >> Edward >> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are >>> very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel >>> blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text >>> message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >>> >>> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >>> >>> PO >>> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> @dennis, >>>> >>>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can >>>> compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>>> whole >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector >>>>> approach to taxation. >>>>> >>>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel >>>>> battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>> >>>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of >>>>>> evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral >>>>>> right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause >>>>>> for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules >>>>>> for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>>> Rgds, >>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if >>>>>>> someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we >>>>>>> need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped >>>>>>> by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms >>>>>>> are helping management cook books. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that these >>>>>>> people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are >>>>>>> saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and >>>>>>> decisions should be over. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore >>>>>>> little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the >>>>>>> other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy >>>>>>> (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to >>>>>>> steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To >>>>>>> cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point >>>>>>> they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and >>>>>>> continue eating. >>>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning >>>>>>> a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in >>>>>>> marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is >>>>>>> all about perception. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to >>>>>>> make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via >>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders >>>>>>>> will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, >>>>>>>>>> since im both. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such >>>>>>>>>> that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart >>>>>>>>>> from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold >>>>>>>>>> numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company >>>>>>>>>> than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money >>>>>>>>>> without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing >>>>>>>>>> government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can >>>>>>>>>> be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we >>>>>>>>>> look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid >>>>>>>>>> Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they >>>>>>>>>> don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>> declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having >>>>>>>>>> something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in >>>>>>>>>> trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the >>>>>>>>>> price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative >>>>>>>>>> anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without >>>>>>>>>> sweating. >>>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on >>>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the >>>>>>>>>> services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free >>>>>>>>>> offer end? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across >>>>>>>>>> the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>>>>>>>>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>>>>>>>>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>>>>>>>>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>>>>>>>>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>>>>>> however costly. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much >>>>>>>>>> in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a >>>>>>>>>> while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>>>>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>>>>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>>>>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>>>>>>> as a layman. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM >>>>>>>>> should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. >>>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times >>>>>>>>> better than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be >>>>>>>>> punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> with Regards: >>>>> >>>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>> >>>> +254720425104 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are - Is its abusing its dominance? - Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether its abusing this position or not? - Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant players? - Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is causing the other players not to make profits? - Will we end up with an ERC scenario? If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance. On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a statistical fact.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list.
Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth even 15k bob
(nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK)
http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr...
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
as mentioned ealrier,
- There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating.
if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing MPesa.
How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing negative returns on their investment.
PO On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Brian,
The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what profit margins did they report they last financial year?
regards
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Edward, Do you mean another country in Africa or globally?
Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation).
Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter.
Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom?
Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> @Peter, > I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in > Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the > multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid > in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend > about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of > curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not > one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to > private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among > other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to > support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To > say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption > just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices > internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. > On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay > maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. > > Tony > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> Fellows, >> >> Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance >> by a given player or for lack of competition? >> >> Rgds. >> >> Anthony >> >> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive >>> rates. >>> >>> Regards >>> Edward >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are >>>> very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel >>>> blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text >>>> message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >>>> >>>> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >>>> >>>> PO >>>> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @dennis, >>>>> >>>>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can >>>>> compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>>>> whole >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector >>>>>> approach to taxation. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel >>>>>> battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of >>>>>>> evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral >>>>>>> right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause >>>>>>> for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules >>>>>>> for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>>>> Rgds, >>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if >>>>>>>> someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we >>>>>>>> need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped >>>>>>>> by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms >>>>>>>> are helping management cook books. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that these >>>>>>>> people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are >>>>>>>> saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and >>>>>>>> decisions should be over. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore >>>>>>>> little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the >>>>>>>> other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy >>>>>>>> (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to >>>>>>>> steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To >>>>>>>> cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point >>>>>>>> they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and >>>>>>>> continue eating. >>>>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure >>>>>>>> meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in >>>>>>>> marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is >>>>>>>> all about perception. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to >>>>>>>> make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via >>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders >>>>>>>>> will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech >>>>>>>>>>> person, since im both. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>>>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>>>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>>>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>>>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>>>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such >>>>>>>>>>> that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers >>>>>>>>>>> apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been >>>>>>>>>>> sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger >>>>>>>>>>> company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make >>>>>>>>>>> money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently >>>>>>>>>>> loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that >>>>>>>>>>> TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, >>>>>>>>>>> while we look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid >>>>>>>>>>> Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they >>>>>>>>>>> don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>> declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having >>>>>>>>>>> something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in >>>>>>>>>>> trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the >>>>>>>>>>> price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative >>>>>>>>>>> anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without >>>>>>>>>>> sweating. >>>>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on >>>>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the >>>>>>>>>>> services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free >>>>>>>>>>> offer end? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some >>>>>>>>>>> freedom? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across >>>>>>>>>>> the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>>>>>>>>>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>>>>>>>>>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>>>>>>>>>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>>>>>>>>>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>>>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>>>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>>>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>>>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>>>>>>> however costly. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much >>>>>>>>>>> in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a >>>>>>>>>>> while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>>>>>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>>>>>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>>>>>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>>>>>>>> as a layman. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). >>>>>>>>>> SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever >>>>>>>>>> they want. >>>>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times >>>>>>>>>> better than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be >>>>>>>>>> punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> with Regards: >>>>>> >>>>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Best Regards, >>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>> >>>>> +254720425104 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
-- Lusiola Brian |3 R 1 /-\ |\|
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grammar correction sorry typed in a hurry never have we heard Tabitha Karanja On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are
- Is its abusing its dominance? - Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether its abusing this position or not? - Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant players? - Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is causing the other players not to make profits? - Will we end up with an ERC scenario?
If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a statistical fact.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list.
Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth even 15k bob
(nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK)
http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr...
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
as mentioned ealrier,
- There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating.
if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing MPesa.
How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing negative returns on their investment.
PO On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Brian,
The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what profit margins did they report they last financial year?
regards
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> @Edward, > Do you mean another country in Africa or globally? > > Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the > number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation). > > Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, > Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing > systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming > arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter. > > Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's > mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom > still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom? > > Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates. > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> @Peter, >> I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in >> Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the >> multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid >> in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend >> about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of >> curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not >> one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to >> private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among >> other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to >> support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To >> say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption >> just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices >> internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. >> On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay >> maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. >> >> Tony >> >> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> Fellows, >>> >>> Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance >>> by a given player or for lack of competition? >>> >>> Rgds. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive >>>> rates. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Edward >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are >>>>> very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel >>>>> blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text >>>>> message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >>>>> >>>>> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >>>>> >>>>> PO >>>>> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @dennis, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can >>>>>> compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>>>>> whole >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private >>>>>>> Sector approach to taxation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel >>>>>>> battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>>>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>>>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of >>>>>>>> evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a >>>>>>>> moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root >>>>>>>> cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen >>>>>>>> rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>>>>> Rgds, >>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti < >>>>>>>> kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, >>>>>>>>> if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance >>>>>>>>> we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not >>>>>>>>> helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local >>>>>>>>> auditing firms are helping management cook books. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that these >>>>>>>>> people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are >>>>>>>>> saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and >>>>>>>>> decisions should be over. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore >>>>>>>>> little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the >>>>>>>>> other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our >>>>>>>>> greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most >>>>>>>>> likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future >>>>>>>>> generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it >>>>>>>>> reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black >>>>>>>>> market and continue eating. >>>>>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure >>>>>>>>> meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in >>>>>>>>> marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is >>>>>>>>> all about perception. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to >>>>>>>>> make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via >>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all >>>>>>>>>> stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech >>>>>>>>>>>> person, since im both. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>>>>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>>>>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>>>>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>>>>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>>>>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested >>>>>>>>>>>> such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers >>>>>>>>>>>> apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been >>>>>>>>>>>> sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger >>>>>>>>>>>> company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make >>>>>>>>>>>> money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently >>>>>>>>>>>> loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that >>>>>>>>>>>> TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, >>>>>>>>>>>> while we look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid >>>>>>>>>>>> Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they >>>>>>>>>>>> don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>> declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having >>>>>>>>>>>> something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in >>>>>>>>>>>> trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the >>>>>>>>>>>> price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my >>>>>>>>>>>> relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble >>>>>>>>>>>> without sweating. >>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be >>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the >>>>>>>>>>>> services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free >>>>>>>>>>>> offer end? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some >>>>>>>>>>>> freedom? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across >>>>>>>>>>>> the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>>>>>>>>>>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>>>>>>>>>>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>>>>>>>>>>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>>>>>>>>>>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>>>>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>>>>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>>>>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>>>>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>>>>>>>> however costly. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much >>>>>>>>>>>> in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a >>>>>>>>>>>> while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>>>>>>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>>>>>>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>>>>>>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>>>>>>>>> as a layman. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). >>>>>>>>>>> SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever >>>>>>>>>>> they want. >>>>>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times >>>>>>>>>>> better than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be >>>>>>>>>>> punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> with Regards: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>> >>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > > -- > Lusiola Brian > |3 R 1 /-\ |\| > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
Stephen, The fact that a Keroche(Tabitha Karanja) hasn't complained about EABL doesn't excuse the issue at hand. I've been in the alcohol industry and can tell you for sure that EABL indeed is abusing it's undeclared market dominance...There are instances when they openly trade-in thier brands for competitor's brands(especially freshly launched brands)...This is however a issue for another forum. Sincerely, Jared Oyier On 17 July 2015 at 12:32, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are
- Is its abusing its dominance? - Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether its abusing this position or not? - Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant players? - Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is causing the other players not to make profits? - Will we end up with an ERC scenario?
If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a statistical fact.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list.
Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth even 15k bob
(nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK)
http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr...
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
as mentioned ealrier,
- There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating.
if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing MPesa.
How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing negative returns on their investment.
PO On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Brian,
The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what profit margins did they report they last financial year?
regards
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> @Edward, > Do you mean another country in Africa or globally? > > Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the > number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation). > > Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, > Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing > systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming > arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter. > > Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's > mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom > still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom? > > Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates. > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> @Peter, >> I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in >> Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the >> multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid >> in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend >> about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of >> curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not >> one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to >> private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among >> other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to >> support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To >> say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption >> just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices >> internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. >> On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay >> maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. >> >> Tony >> >> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> Fellows, >>> >>> Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance >>> by a given player or for lack of competition? >>> >>> Rgds. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive >>>> rates. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Edward >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are >>>>> very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel >>>>> blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text >>>>> message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >>>>> >>>>> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >>>>> >>>>> PO >>>>> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @dennis, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can >>>>>> compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>>>>> whole >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private >>>>>>> Sector approach to taxation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel >>>>>>> battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>>>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>>>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of >>>>>>>> evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a >>>>>>>> moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root >>>>>>>> cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen >>>>>>>> rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>>>>> Rgds, >>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti < >>>>>>>> kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, >>>>>>>>> if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance >>>>>>>>> we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not >>>>>>>>> helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local >>>>>>>>> auditing firms are helping management cook books. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that these >>>>>>>>> people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are >>>>>>>>> saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and >>>>>>>>> decisions should be over. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore >>>>>>>>> little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the >>>>>>>>> other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our >>>>>>>>> greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most >>>>>>>>> likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future >>>>>>>>> generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it >>>>>>>>> reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black >>>>>>>>> market and continue eating. >>>>>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure >>>>>>>>> meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in >>>>>>>>> marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is >>>>>>>>> all about perception. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to >>>>>>>>> make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via >>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all >>>>>>>>>> stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech >>>>>>>>>>>> person, since im both. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>>>>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>>>>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>>>>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>>>>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>>>>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested >>>>>>>>>>>> such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers >>>>>>>>>>>> apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been >>>>>>>>>>>> sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger >>>>>>>>>>>> company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make >>>>>>>>>>>> money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently >>>>>>>>>>>> loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that >>>>>>>>>>>> TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, >>>>>>>>>>>> while we look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid >>>>>>>>>>>> Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they >>>>>>>>>>>> don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>> declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having >>>>>>>>>>>> something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in >>>>>>>>>>>> trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the >>>>>>>>>>>> price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my >>>>>>>>>>>> relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble >>>>>>>>>>>> without sweating. >>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be >>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the >>>>>>>>>>>> services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free >>>>>>>>>>>> offer end? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some >>>>>>>>>>>> freedom? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across >>>>>>>>>>>> the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else >>>>>>>>>>>> knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will >>>>>>>>>>>> backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" >>>>>>>>>>>> bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or >>>>>>>>>>>> beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>>>>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>>>>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>>>>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>>>>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>>>>>>>> however costly. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much >>>>>>>>>>>> in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a >>>>>>>>>>>> while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>>>>>>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>>>>>>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>>>>>>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>>>>>>>>> as a layman. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). >>>>>>>>>>> SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever >>>>>>>>>>> they want. >>>>>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times >>>>>>>>>>> better than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be >>>>>>>>>>> punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> with Regards: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>> >>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > > -- > Lusiola Brian > |3 R 1 /-\ |\| > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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@Jared, Yes, agreed. I remember the same happened to Softa under coca cola. But my point is that Keroche somehow is making it work for themselves even though they have a case against EABL. They are even expanding and to some extent eating into the big boys share. They are fighting were it matters On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
Stephen,
The fact that a Keroche(Tabitha Karanja) hasn't complained about EABL doesn't excuse the issue at hand. I've been in the alcohol industry and can tell you for sure that EABL indeed is abusing it's undeclared market dominance...There are instances when they openly trade-in thier brands for competitor's brands(especially freshly launched brands)...This is however a issue for another forum.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 12:32, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are
- Is its abusing its dominance? - Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether its abusing this position or not? - Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant players? - Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is causing the other players not to make profits? - Will we end up with an ERC scenario?
If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a statistical fact.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list.
Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth even 15k bob
(nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK)
http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr...
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
as mentioned ealrier,
- There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating.
if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing MPesa.
How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing negative returns on their investment.
PO On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> @ Brian, > > The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what > profit margins did they report they last financial year? > > regards > > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> @Edward, >> Do you mean another country in Africa or globally? >> >> Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite >> the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just >> speculation). >> >> Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second >> billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and >> addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and >> Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire >> igniter. >> >> Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in >> it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to >> Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom? >> >> Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates. >> >> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> @Peter, >>> I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in >>> Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the >>> multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid >>> in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend >>> about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of >>> curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not >>> one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to >>> private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among >>> other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to >>> support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To >>> say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption >>> just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices >>> internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. >>> On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay >>> maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> Fellows, >>>> >>>> Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance >>>> by a given player or for lack of competition? >>>> >>>> Rgds. >>>> >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive >>>>> rates. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Edward >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are >>>>>> very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel >>>>>> blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text >>>>>> message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >>>>>> >>>>>> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >>>>>> >>>>>> PO >>>>>> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> @dennis, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can >>>>>>> compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>>>>>> whole >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private >>>>>>>> Sector approach to taxation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel >>>>>>>> battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>>>>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>>>>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of >>>>>>>>> evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a >>>>>>>>> moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root >>>>>>>>> cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen >>>>>>>>> rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>>>>>> Rgds, >>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti < >>>>>>>>> kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, >>>>>>>>>> if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance >>>>>>>>>> we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not >>>>>>>>>> helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local >>>>>>>>>> auditing firms are helping management cook books. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that >>>>>>>>>> these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are >>>>>>>>>> saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and >>>>>>>>>> decisions should be over. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore >>>>>>>>>> little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the >>>>>>>>>> other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our >>>>>>>>>> greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most >>>>>>>>>> likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future >>>>>>>>>> generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it >>>>>>>>>> reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black >>>>>>>>>> market and continue eating. >>>>>>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure >>>>>>>>>> meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in >>>>>>>>>> marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is >>>>>>>>>> all about perception. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to >>>>>>>>>> make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all >>>>>>>>>>> stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech >>>>>>>>>>>>> person, since im both. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>>>>>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>>>>>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>>>>>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested >>>>>>>>>>>>> such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>>>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>>>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>>>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers >>>>>>>>>>>>> apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been >>>>>>>>>>>>> sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger >>>>>>>>>>>>> company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make >>>>>>>>>>>>> money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently >>>>>>>>>>>>> loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that >>>>>>>>>>>>> TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, >>>>>>>>>>>>> while we look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid >>>>>>>>>>>>> Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>>> declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having >>>>>>>>>>>>> something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in >>>>>>>>>>>>> trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my >>>>>>>>>>>>> relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble >>>>>>>>>>>>> without sweating. >>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be >>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free >>>>>>>>>>>>> offer end? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some >>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>>>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>>>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>>>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>>>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>>>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, >>>>>>>>>>>>> across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven >>>>>>>>>>>>> who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that >>>>>>>>>>>>> will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome >>>>>>>>>>>>> or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>>>>>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>>>>>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>>>>>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>>>>>>>>> however costly. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very >>>>>>>>>>>>> much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once >>>>>>>>>>>>> in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>>>>>>>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>>>>>>>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a layman. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). >>>>>>>>>>>> SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever >>>>>>>>>>>> they want. >>>>>>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times >>>>>>>>>>>> better than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be >>>>>>>>>>>> punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> with Regards: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Lusiola Brian >> |3 R 1 /-\ |\| >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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@Stephen, you need to look at this issue from a consumer standpoint, Safaricom's runaway market power ought to be checked to allow fair competition and ultimately better products to the consumers. Personally I don't care if they split Safaricom into 47 smaller units for each county(jokes)..all i care about is competitive pricing, quality of service and innovative services. Right now even if Airtel were to reduce their calling rates to Zero, Safaricom wouldn't feel a pinch, mostly because we are all locked. This is bad power for Safaricom to have. Sincerely, Jared Oyier On 17 July 2015 at 16:44, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jared,
Yes, agreed. I remember the same happened to Softa under coca cola. But my point is that Keroche somehow is making it work for themselves even though they have a case against EABL. They are even expanding and to some extent eating into the big boys share.
They are fighting were it matters
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
Stephen,
The fact that a Keroche(Tabitha Karanja) hasn't complained about EABL doesn't excuse the issue at hand. I've been in the alcohol industry and can tell you for sure that EABL indeed is abusing it's undeclared market dominance...There are instances when they openly trade-in thier brands for competitor's brands(especially freshly launched brands)...This is however a issue for another forum.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 12:32, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are
- Is its abusing its dominance? - Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether its abusing this position or not? - Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant players? - Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is causing the other players not to make profits? - Will we end up with an ERC scenario?
If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a statistical fact.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list.
Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth even 15k bob
(nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK)
http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr...
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
as mentioned ealrier,
- There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating.
if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> @brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price > Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving > on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing > MPesa. > > How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to > close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the > globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing > negative returns on their investment. > > PO > On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> @ Brian, >> >> The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what >> profit margins did they report they last financial year? >> >> regards >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> @Edward, >>> Do you mean another country in Africa or globally? >>> >>> Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite >>> the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just >>> speculation). >>> >>> Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second >>> billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and >>> addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and >>> Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire >>> igniter. >>> >>> Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in >>> it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to >>> Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom? >>> >>> Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates. >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> @Peter, >>>> I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies >>>> in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the >>>> multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid >>>> in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend >>>> about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of >>>> curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not >>>> one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to >>>> private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among >>>> other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to >>>> support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To >>>> say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption >>>> just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices >>>> internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. >>>> On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would >>>> pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. >>>> >>>> Tony >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Fellows, >>>>> >>>>> Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of >>>>> dominance by a given player or for lack of competition? >>>>> >>>>> Rgds. >>>>> >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such >>>>>> competitive rates. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Edward >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates >>>>>>> are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should >>>>>>> feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text >>>>>>> message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PO >>>>>>> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @dennis, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can >>>>>>>> compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks >>>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private >>>>>>>>> Sector approach to taxation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel >>>>>>>>> battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>>>>>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>>>>>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of >>>>>>>>>> evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a >>>>>>>>>> moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root >>>>>>>>>> cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen >>>>>>>>>> rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>>>>>>> Rgds, >>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti < >>>>>>>>>> kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, >>>>>>>>>>> if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance >>>>>>>>>>> we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not >>>>>>>>>>> helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local >>>>>>>>>>> auditing firms are helping management cook books. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that >>>>>>>>>>> these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>>>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we >>>>>>>>>>> are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances >>>>>>>>>>> and decisions should be over. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore >>>>>>>>>>> little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the >>>>>>>>>>> other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>>>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>>>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>>>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>>>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>>>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our >>>>>>>>>>> greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most >>>>>>>>>>> likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future >>>>>>>>>>> generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it >>>>>>>>>>> reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black >>>>>>>>>>> market and continue eating. >>>>>>>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure >>>>>>>>>>> meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and >>>>>>>>>>> in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight >>>>>>>>>>> is all about perception. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to >>>>>>>>>>> make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all >>>>>>>>>>>> stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech >>>>>>>>>>>>>> person, since im both. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>>>>>>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested >>>>>>>>>>>>>> such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger >>>>>>>>>>>>>> company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>> money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently >>>>>>>>>>>>>> loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> while we look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby >>>>>>>>>>>>>> having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble >>>>>>>>>>>>>> without sweating. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> free offer end? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven >>>>>>>>>>>>>> who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> however costly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very >>>>>>>>>>>>>> much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a layman. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). >>>>>>>>>>>>> SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever >>>>>>>>>>>>> they want. >>>>>>>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times >>>>>>>>>>>>> better than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be >>>>>>>>>>>>> punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> with Regards: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Lusiola Brian >>> |3 R 1 /-\ |\| >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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@Jared What Safaricoms enjoys is referred to in economics as moat. This is its competitive advantage. No body is locked to Safaricom. Its cheaper to call, to and fro orange to safaricom with orange line than it is to call safaricom to safaricom. With Airtel its free to send money to any network, this should offset the money you pay to receive money from safaricom customers. However no one is moving. Yu was charging calls at one shilling per minute, no one was moving, despite porting being allowed. There is a reason no one is willing to move and this is what the competitors should address They should take this fight to the rightful ring. At this rate may be we should refer the matter to the night runners(or witch doctors) association (sic). On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
@Stephen, you need to look at this issue from a consumer standpoint, Safaricom's runaway market power ought to be checked to allow fair competition and ultimately better products to the consumers. Personally I don't care if they split Safaricom into 47 smaller units for each county(jokes)..all i care about is competitive pricing, quality of service and innovative services. Right now even if Airtel were to reduce their calling rates to Zero, Safaricom wouldn't feel a pinch, mostly because we are all locked. This is bad power for Safaricom to have.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 16:44, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jared,
Yes, agreed. I remember the same happened to Softa under coca cola. But my point is that Keroche somehow is making it work for themselves even though they have a case against EABL. They are even expanding and to some extent eating into the big boys share.
They are fighting were it matters
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
Stephen,
The fact that a Keroche(Tabitha Karanja) hasn't complained about EABL doesn't excuse the issue at hand. I've been in the alcohol industry and can tell you for sure that EABL indeed is abusing it's undeclared market dominance...There are instances when they openly trade-in thier brands for competitor's brands(especially freshly launched brands)...This is however a issue for another forum.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 12:32, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are
- Is its abusing its dominance? - Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether its abusing this position or not? - Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant players? - Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is causing the other players not to make profits? - Will we end up with an ERC scenario?
If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a statistical fact.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list.
Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth even 15k bob
(nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK)
http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr...
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> as mentioned ealrier, > > > - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting > or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, > implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target > and potential markets. > - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its > our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to > steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To > cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point > they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and > continue eating. > > > if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to > constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and > smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and > catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point > RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> @brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price >> Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving >> on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing >> MPesa. >> >> How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to >> close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the >> globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing >> negative returns on their investment. >> >> PO >> On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> @ Brian, >>> >>> The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what >>> profit margins did they report they last financial year? >>> >>> regards >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> @Edward, >>>> Do you mean another country in Africa or globally? >>>> >>>> Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite >>>> the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just >>>> speculation). >>>> >>>> Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second >>>> billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and >>>> addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and >>>> Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire >>>> igniter. >>>> >>>> Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in >>>> it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to >>>> Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom? >>>> >>>> Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @Peter, >>>>> I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies >>>>> in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the >>>>> multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid >>>>> in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend >>>>> about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of >>>>> curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not >>>>> one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to >>>>> private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among >>>>> other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to >>>>> support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To >>>>> say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption >>>>> just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices >>>>> internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. >>>>> On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would >>>>> pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. >>>>> >>>>> Tony >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Fellows, >>>>>> >>>>>> Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of >>>>>> dominance by a given player or for lack of competition? >>>>>> >>>>>> Rgds. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such >>>>>>> competitive rates. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> Edward >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates >>>>>>>> are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should >>>>>>>> feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text >>>>>>>> message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PO >>>>>>>> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> @dennis, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can >>>>>>>>> compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks >>>>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private >>>>>>>>>> Sector approach to taxation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel >>>>>>>>>> battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>>>>>>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>>>>>>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of >>>>>>>>>>> evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a >>>>>>>>>>> moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root >>>>>>>>>>> cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen >>>>>>>>>>> rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>>>>>>>> Rgds, >>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti < >>>>>>>>>>> kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot >>>>>>>>>>>> verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused >>>>>>>>>>>> dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is >>>>>>>>>>>> not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local >>>>>>>>>>>> auditing firms are helping management cook books. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that >>>>>>>>>>>> these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>>>>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we >>>>>>>>>>>> are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances >>>>>>>>>>>> and decisions should be over. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore >>>>>>>>>>>> little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the >>>>>>>>>>>> other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>>>>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>>>>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>>>>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our >>>>>>>>>>>> greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most >>>>>>>>>>>> likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future >>>>>>>>>>>> generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it >>>>>>>>>>>> reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black >>>>>>>>>>>> market and continue eating. >>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and >>>>>>>>>>>> in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight >>>>>>>>>>>> is all about perception. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able >>>>>>>>>>>> to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all >>>>>>>>>>>>> stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person, since im both. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while we look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without sweating. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free offer end? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however costly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my case, as a layman. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they want. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times >>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than "*these*" others. Safcom should not be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> with Regards: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Lusiola Brian >>>> |3 R 1 /-\ |\| >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > > -- > > Best Regards, > Stephen Munguti. > > +254720425104 > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
I believe Safaricom is at its toes, because every other competitor is waiting for it to slip. So i guess this is good for competition. If we intentionally gag and provider what will be of this competition? This is the reason our call rates are the lowest in the world. We have better use of our network resources and we have the highest financial inclusion in the world. On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:36 PM, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jared
What Safaricoms enjoys is referred to in economics as moat. This is its competitive advantage. No body is locked to Safaricom. Its cheaper to call, to and fro orange to safaricom with orange line than it is to call safaricom to safaricom. With Airtel its free to send money to any network, this should offset the money you pay to receive money from safaricom customers. However no one is moving. Yu was charging calls at one shilling per minute, no one was moving, despite porting being allowed. There is a reason no one is willing to move and this is what the competitors should address They should take this fight to the rightful ring.
At this rate may be we should refer the matter to the night runners(or witch doctors) association (sic).
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
@Stephen, you need to look at this issue from a consumer standpoint, Safaricom's runaway market power ought to be checked to allow fair competition and ultimately better products to the consumers. Personally I don't care if they split Safaricom into 47 smaller units for each county(jokes)..all i care about is competitive pricing, quality of service and innovative services. Right now even if Airtel were to reduce their calling rates to Zero, Safaricom wouldn't feel a pinch, mostly because we are all locked. This is bad power for Safaricom to have.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 16:44, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jared,
Yes, agreed. I remember the same happened to Softa under coca cola. But my point is that Keroche somehow is making it work for themselves even though they have a case against EABL. They are even expanding and to some extent eating into the big boys share.
They are fighting were it matters
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
Stephen,
The fact that a Keroche(Tabitha Karanja) hasn't complained about EABL doesn't excuse the issue at hand. I've been in the alcohol industry and can tell you for sure that EABL indeed is abusing it's undeclared market dominance...There are instances when they openly trade-in thier brands for competitor's brands(especially freshly launched brands)...This is however a issue for another forum.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 12:32, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are
- Is its abusing its dominance? - Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether its abusing this position or not? - Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant players? - Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is causing the other players not to make profits? - Will we end up with an ERC scenario?
If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a statistical fact.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list. > > Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth > even 15k bob > > (nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK) > > > http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr... > > > > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> as mentioned ealrier, >> >> >> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting >> or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, >> implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target >> and potential markets. >> - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its >> our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to >> steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To >> cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point >> they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and >> continue eating. >> >> >> if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to >> constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and >> smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and >> catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point >> RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues >> >> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> @brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price >>> Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving >>> on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing >>> MPesa. >>> >>> How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to >>> close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the >>> globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing >>> negative returns on their investment. >>> >>> PO >>> On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> @ Brian, >>>> >>>> The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what >>>> profit margins did they report they last financial year? >>>> >>>> regards >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @Edward, >>>>> Do you mean another country in Africa or globally? >>>>> >>>>> Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite >>>>> the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just >>>>> speculation). >>>>> >>>>> Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second >>>>> billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and >>>>> addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and >>>>> Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire >>>>> igniter. >>>>> >>>>> Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in >>>>> it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to >>>>> Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom? >>>>> >>>>> Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @Peter, >>>>>> I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies >>>>>> in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the >>>>>> multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid >>>>>> in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend >>>>>> about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of >>>>>> curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not >>>>>> one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to >>>>>> private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among >>>>>> other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to >>>>>> support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To >>>>>> say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption >>>>>> just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices >>>>>> internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. >>>>>> On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would >>>>>> pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tony >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Fellows, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of >>>>>>> dominance by a given player or for lack of competition? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rgds. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks >>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such >>>>>>>> competitive rates. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> Edward >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks >>>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates >>>>>>>>> are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should >>>>>>>>> feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text >>>>>>>>> message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> PO >>>>>>>>> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @dennis, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we >>>>>>>>>> can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private >>>>>>>>>>> Sector approach to taxation. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - >>>>>>>>>>> Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>>>>>>>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of >>>>>>>>>>>> evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a >>>>>>>>>>>> moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root >>>>>>>>>>>> cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen >>>>>>>>>>>> rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>>>>>>>>> Rgds, >>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti < >>>>>>>>>>>> kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>> verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused >>>>>>>>>>>>> dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is >>>>>>>>>>>>> not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local >>>>>>>>>>>>> auditing firms are helping management cook books. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that >>>>>>>>>>>>> these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>>>>>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we >>>>>>>>>>>>> are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances >>>>>>>>>>>>> and decisions should be over. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, >>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging >>>>>>>>>>>>> to the other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>>>>>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>>>>>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>>>>>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our >>>>>>>>>>>>> greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most >>>>>>>>>>>>> likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future >>>>>>>>>>>>> generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it >>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black >>>>>>>>>>>>> market and continue eating. >>>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure >>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight >>>>>>>>>>>>> is all about perception. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able >>>>>>>>>>>>> to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via >>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person, since im both. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while we look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without sweating. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free offer end? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we go for it, however costly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my case, as a layman. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they want. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 50times better than "*these*" others. Safcom should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> telcos. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> with Regards: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Lusiola Brian >>>>> |3 R 1 /-\ |\| >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Best Regards, >> Stephen Munguti. >> >> +254720425104 >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > 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+254720425104
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Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
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-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
spelling if we intentionally gag any competitor On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe Safaricom is at its toes, because every other competitor is waiting for it to slip. So i guess this is good for competition. If we intentionally gag and provider what will be of this competition? This is the reason our call rates are the lowest in the world. We have better use of our network resources and we have the highest financial inclusion in the world.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:36 PM, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jared
What Safaricoms enjoys is referred to in economics as moat. This is its competitive advantage. No body is locked to Safaricom. Its cheaper to call, to and fro orange to safaricom with orange line than it is to call safaricom to safaricom. With Airtel its free to send money to any network, this should offset the money you pay to receive money from safaricom customers. However no one is moving. Yu was charging calls at one shilling per minute, no one was moving, despite porting being allowed. There is a reason no one is willing to move and this is what the competitors should address They should take this fight to the rightful ring.
At this rate may be we should refer the matter to the night runners(or witch doctors) association (sic).
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
@Stephen, you need to look at this issue from a consumer standpoint, Safaricom's runaway market power ought to be checked to allow fair competition and ultimately better products to the consumers. Personally I don't care if they split Safaricom into 47 smaller units for each county(jokes)..all i care about is competitive pricing, quality of service and innovative services. Right now even if Airtel were to reduce their calling rates to Zero, Safaricom wouldn't feel a pinch, mostly because we are all locked. This is bad power for Safaricom to have.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 16:44, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jared,
Yes, agreed. I remember the same happened to Softa under coca cola. But my point is that Keroche somehow is making it work for themselves even though they have a case against EABL. They are even expanding and to some extent eating into the big boys share.
They are fighting were it matters
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
Stephen,
The fact that a Keroche(Tabitha Karanja) hasn't complained about EABL doesn't excuse the issue at hand. I've been in the alcohol industry and can tell you for sure that EABL indeed is abusing it's undeclared market dominance...There are instances when they openly trade-in thier brands for competitor's brands(especially freshly launched brands)...This is however a issue for another forum.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 12:32, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are
- Is its abusing its dominance? - Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether its abusing this position or not? - Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant players? - Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is causing the other players not to make profits? - Will we end up with an ERC scenario?
If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> @Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a > statistical fact. > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list. >> >> Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. >> Worth even 15k bob >> >> (nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK) >> >> >> http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr... >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> as mentioned ealrier, >>> >>> >>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>> the target and potential markets. >>> - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its >>> our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to >>> steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To >>> cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point >>> they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and >>> continue eating. >>> >>> >>> if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to >>> constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and >>> smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and >>> catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point >>> RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> @brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price >>>> Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving >>>> on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing >>>> MPesa. >>>> >>>> How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to >>>> close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the >>>> globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing >>>> negative returns on their investment. >>>> >>>> PO >>>> On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @ Brian, >>>>> >>>>> The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what >>>>> profit margins did they report they last financial year? >>>>> >>>>> regards >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @Edward, >>>>>> Do you mean another country in Africa or globally? >>>>>> >>>>>> Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, >>>>>> despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just >>>>>> speculation). >>>>>> >>>>>> Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second >>>>>> billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and >>>>>> addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and >>>>>> Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire >>>>>> igniter. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in >>>>>> it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to >>>>>> Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom? >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks >>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> @Peter, >>>>>>> I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign >>>>>>> companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of >>>>>>> the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was >>>>>>> paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he >>>>>>> would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other >>>>>>> countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, >>>>>>> of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management >>>>>>> have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser >>>>>>> corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate >>>>>>> company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying >>>>>>> t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they >>>>>>> thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase >>>>>>> their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting >>>>>>> Africa of her resources. >>>>>>> On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would >>>>>>> pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tony >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks >>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fellows, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of >>>>>>>> dominance by a given player or for lack of competition? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Rgds. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks >>>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such >>>>>>>>> competitive rates. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>> Edward >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks >>>>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates >>>>>>>>>> are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should >>>>>>>>>> feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text >>>>>>>>>> message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> PO >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> @dennis, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we >>>>>>>>>>> can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>>>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private >>>>>>>>>>>> Sector approach to taxation. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - >>>>>>>>>>>> Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>>>>>>>>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model >>>>>>>>>>>>> of evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>> have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The >>>>>>>>>>>>> root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we >>>>>>>>>>>>> stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rgds, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti < >>>>>>>>>>>>> kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local >>>>>>>>>>>>>> auditing firms are helping management cook books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>>>>>>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and decisions should be over. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>>>>>>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our >>>>>>>>>>>>>> greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most >>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future >>>>>>>>>>>>>> generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black >>>>>>>>>>>>>> market and continue eating. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fight is all about perception. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person, since im both. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> im in trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> signal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without sweating. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free offer end? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we go for it, however costly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my case, as a layman. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they want. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 50times better than "*these*" others. Safcom should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> telcos. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> with Regards: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Lusiola Brian >>>>>> |3 R 1 /-\ |\| >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Stephen Munguti. >>> >>> +254720425104 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
Speaking for myself. If Airtel or Orange could offer the exact same services (cheaper, or faster or both), with the same quality and service as Safaricom, I would consider porting. However, both of these companies offerings are below my expectations, so I stick with the sfc for now. On a side note, I have a friend who replaced his Orange phone line's SIM card, and realised on the new sim that suddenly the phone was not showing the caller's number for all incoming phone calls. Weeks on end, guys at orange tried to figure out what happened, replaced the sim several times etc, nothing worked. They gave up and told him to get another line. That is not a company I can give my money to. Regards, John K. On 17 July 2015 at 17:41, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
spelling
if we intentionally gag any competitor
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe Safaricom is at its toes, because every other competitor is waiting for it to slip. So i guess this is good for competition. If we intentionally gag and provider what will be of this competition? This is the reason our call rates are the lowest in the world. We have better use of our network resources and we have the highest financial inclusion in the world.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:36 PM, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jared
What Safaricoms enjoys is referred to in economics as moat. This is its competitive advantage. No body is locked to Safaricom. Its cheaper to call, to and fro orange to safaricom with orange line than it is to call safaricom to safaricom. With Airtel its free to send money to any network, this should offset the money you pay to receive money from safaricom customers. However no one is moving. Yu was charging calls at one shilling per minute, no one was moving, despite porting being allowed. There is a reason no one is willing to move and this is what the competitors should address They should take this fight to the rightful ring.
At this rate may be we should refer the matter to the night runners(or witch doctors) association (sic).
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
@Stephen, you need to look at this issue from a consumer standpoint, Safaricom's runaway market power ought to be checked to allow fair competition and ultimately better products to the consumers. Personally I don't care if they split Safaricom into 47 smaller units for each county(jokes)..all i care about is competitive pricing, quality of service and innovative services. Right now even if Airtel were to reduce their calling rates to Zero, Safaricom wouldn't feel a pinch, mostly because we are all locked. This is bad power for Safaricom to have.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 16:44, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jared,
Yes, agreed. I remember the same happened to Softa under coca cola. But my point is that Keroche somehow is making it work for themselves even though they have a case against EABL. They are even expanding and to some extent eating into the big boys share.
They are fighting were it matters
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
Stephen,
The fact that a Keroche(Tabitha Karanja) hasn't complained about EABL doesn't excuse the issue at hand. I've been in the alcohol industry and can tell you for sure that EABL indeed is abusing it's undeclared market dominance...There are instances when they openly trade-in thier brands for competitor's brands(especially freshly launched brands)...This is however a issue for another forum.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 12:32, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are > > > - Is its abusing its dominance? > - Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether > its abusing this position or not? > - Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant > players? > - Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is > causing the other players not to make profits? > - Will we end up with an ERC scenario? > > If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, > especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers > market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell > the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance. > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> @Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is >> a statistical fact. >> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list. >>> >>> Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. >>> Worth even 15k bob >>> >>> (nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK) >>> >>> >>> http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> as mentioned ealrier, >>>> >>>> >>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>> the target and potential markets. >>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy >>>> (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to >>>> steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To >>>> cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point >>>> they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and >>>> continue eating. >>>> >>>> >>>> if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to >>>> constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and >>>> smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and >>>> catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point >>>> RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price >>>>> Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving >>>>> on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing >>>>> MPesa. >>>>> >>>>> How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had >>>>> to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on >>>>> the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start >>>>> experiencing negative returns on their investment. >>>>> >>>>> PO >>>>> On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @ Brian, >>>>>> >>>>>> The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom >>>>>> what profit margins did they report they last financial year? >>>>>> >>>>>> regards >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> @Edward, >>>>>>> Do you mean another country in Africa or globally? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, >>>>>>> despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just >>>>>>> speculation). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second >>>>>>> billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and >>>>>>> addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and >>>>>>> Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire >>>>>>> igniter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything >>>>>>> in it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom >>>>>>> to Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks >>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @Peter, >>>>>>>> I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign >>>>>>>> companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of >>>>>>>> the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was >>>>>>>> paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he >>>>>>>> would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other >>>>>>>> countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, >>>>>>>> of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management >>>>>>>> have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser >>>>>>>> corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate >>>>>>>> company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying >>>>>>>> t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they >>>>>>>> thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase >>>>>>>> their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting >>>>>>>> Africa of her resources. >>>>>>>> On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries >>>>>>>> would pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tony >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks >>>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Fellows, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of >>>>>>>>> dominance by a given player or for lack of competition? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Rgds. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via >>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such >>>>>>>>>> competitive rates. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>> Edward >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan >>>>>>>>>>> rates are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we >>>>>>>>>>> should feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending >>>>>>>>>>> a text message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We should rejoice while the party lasts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> PO >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> @dennis, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we >>>>>>>>>>>> can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a >>>>>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sector approach to taxation. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how >>>>>>>>>>>>> Safaricom's returns are above global industry average >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < >>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is fact that many companies have engineered a model >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rgds, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> auditing firms are helping management cook books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never complain about politics and the reason is that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> utterances and decisions should be over. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Engineering companies are dying because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Nobody understands the importance of R&D, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the other developed nations in most technologies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a pricing problem which either leads to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the target and potential markets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a human resource problem because of our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> market and continue eating. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fight is all about perception. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,Isaac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person, since im both. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for their loyalty. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As all of us already know, all the telecoms >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underpay Kenyans, let them close down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I keep on loosing data bundles >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> im in trouble with my wife >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the price increasing without notice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> signal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without sweating. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the free offer end? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If all women or men are avoiding you, however >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we go for it, however costly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that law. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my case, as a layman. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You read my mind and did it in better english :). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they want. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 50times better than "*these*" others. Safcom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other telcos. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wilson./ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> with Regards: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> +254720425104 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Lusiola Brian >>>>>>> |3 R 1 /-\ |\| >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Stephen Munguti. >>>> >>>> +254720425104 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> skunkworks mailing list >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > > -- > > Best Regards, > Stephen Munguti. > > +254720425104 > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
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Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
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Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
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I agree with John, having called Orange support a while back and the customer care guy was so green I did most of the troubleshooting and still walked away with my problem. From: John K. via skunkworks [mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke] Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 5:52 PM To: Stephen Munguti; Skunkworks Mailing List Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Safaricom versus Airtel Market Dominance Speaking for myself. If Airtel or Orange could offer the exact same services (cheaper, or faster or both), with the same quality and service as Safaricom, I would consider porting. However, both of these companies offerings are below my expectations, so I stick with the sfc for now. On a side note, I have a friend who replaced his Orange phone line's SIM card, and realised on the new sim that suddenly the phone was not showing the caller's number for all incoming phone calls. Weeks on end, guys at orange tried to figure out what happened, replaced the sim several times etc, nothing worked. They gave up and told him to get another line. That is not a company I can give my money to. Regards, John K. On 17 July 2015 at 17:41, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: spelling if we intentionally gag any competitor On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com <mailto:kamitu.sm@gmail.com> > wrote: I believe Safaricom is at its toes, because every other competitor is waiting for it to slip. So i guess this is good for competition. If we intentionally gag and provider what will be of this competition? This is the reason our call rates are the lowest in the world. We have better use of our network resources and we have the highest financial inclusion in the world. On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:36 PM, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com <mailto:kamitu.sm@gmail.com> > wrote: @Jared What Safaricoms enjoys is referred to in economics as moat. This is its competitive advantage. No body is locked to Safaricom. Its cheaper to call, to and fro orange to safaricom with orange line than it is to call safaricom to safaricom. With Airtel its free to send money to any network, this should offset the money you pay to receive money from safaricom customers. However no one is moving. Yu was charging calls at one shilling per minute, no one was moving, despite porting being allowed. There is a reason no one is willing to move and this is what the competitors should address They should take this fight to the rightful ring. At this rate may be we should refer the matter to the night runners(or witch doctors) association (sic). On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com <mailto:jaredkoyier@gmail.com> > wrote: @Stephen, you need to look at this issue from a consumer standpoint, Safaricom's runaway market power ought to be checked to allow fair competition and ultimately better products to the consumers. Personally I don't care if they split Safaricom into 47 smaller units for each county(jokes)..all i care about is competitive pricing, quality of service and innovative services. Right now even if Airtel were to reduce their calling rates to Zero, Safaricom wouldn't feel a pinch, mostly because we are all locked. This is bad power for Safaricom to have. Sincerely, Jared Oyier On 17 July 2015 at 16:44, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com <mailto:kamitu.sm@gmail.com> > wrote: @Jared, Yes, agreed. I remember the same happened to Softa under coca cola. But my point is that Keroche somehow is making it work for themselves even though they have a case against EABL. They are even expanding and to some extent eating into the big boys share. They are fighting were it matters On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com <mailto:jaredkoyier@gmail.com> > wrote: Stephen, The fact that a Keroche(Tabitha Karanja) hasn't complained about EABL doesn't excuse the issue at hand. I've been in the alcohol industry and can tell you for sure that EABL indeed is abusing it's undeclared market dominance...There are instances when they openly trade-in thier brands for competitor's brands(especially freshly launched brands)...This is however a issue for another forum. Sincerely, Jared Oyier On 17 July 2015 at 12:32, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are * Is its abusing its dominance? * Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether its abusing this position or not? * Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant players? * Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is causing the other players not to make profits? * Will we end up with an ERC scenario? If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance. On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: @Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a statistical fact. On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list. Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth even 15k bob (nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK) http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr... On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: as mentioned ealrier, * There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. * There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: @brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing MPesa. How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing negative returns on their investment. PO On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: @ Brian, The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what profit margins did they report they last financial year? regards On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: @Edward, Do you mean another country in Africa or globally? Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation). Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter. Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom? Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates. On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: @Peter, I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources. On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers. Tony On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: Fellows, Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance by a given player or for lack of competition? Rgds. Anthony On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: @ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive rates. Regards Edward On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote:
From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there?
We should rejoice while the party lasts. PO On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: @dennis, I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a whole On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector approach to taxation. The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's returns are above global industry average http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-... On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: Stephen, It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading taxes, Tusemezane tukubaliane. I don't have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers. Rgds, Isaac Kiplagat On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com <mailto:kamitu.sm@gmail.com> > wrote: We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms are helping management cook books. I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and decisions should be over. Engineering companies are dying because * Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other developed nations in most technologies. * There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. * There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. * There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is all about perception. Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth. On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally. Regards,Isaac On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > wrote: I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both. One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad. As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty. As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down. I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end? Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom? As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service. They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found. If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly. Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law. And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman. You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want. SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than "these" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos. Kind Regards, Wilson./ _______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24 <http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94> &t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke -- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® _______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24 <http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94> &t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke -- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104 <tel:%2B254720425104> -- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP® -- with Regards: blog.denniskioko.com <http://www.denniskioko.com/> _______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24 <http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94> &t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke -- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104 <tel:%2B254720425104> _______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24 <http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94> &t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke 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Is this going work for this market? http://www.nation.co.ke/business/Equity-Bank-Airtel-gang-up-against-Safarico... On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 10:24 PM, George Irungu via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I agree with John, having called Orange support a while back and the customer care guy was so green I did most of the troubleshooting and still walked away with my problem.
*From:* John K. via skunkworks [mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke] *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 5:52 PM *To:* Stephen Munguti; Skunkworks Mailing List *Subject:* Re: [Skunkworks] Safaricom versus Airtel Market Dominance
Speaking for myself. If Airtel or Orange could offer the exact same services (cheaper, or faster or both), with the same quality and service as Safaricom, I would consider porting. However, both of these companies offerings are below my expectations, so I stick with the sfc for now.
On a side note, I have a friend who replaced his Orange phone line's SIM card, and realised on the new sim that suddenly the phone was not showing the caller's number for all incoming phone calls. Weeks on end, guys at orange tried to figure out what happened, replaced the sim several times etc, nothing worked. They gave up and told him to get another line.
That is not a company I can give my money to.
Regards,
John K.
On 17 July 2015 at 17:41, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
spelling
if we intentionally gag any competitor
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe Safaricom is at its toes, because every other competitor is waiting for it to slip. So i guess this is good for competition. If we intentionally gag and provider what will be of this competition? This is the reason our call rates are the lowest in the world. We have better use of our network resources and we have the highest financial inclusion in the world.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:36 PM, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jared
What Safaricoms enjoys is referred to in economics as moat. This is its competitive advantage. No body is locked to Safaricom. Its cheaper to call, to and fro orange to safaricom with orange line than it is to call safaricom to safaricom. With Airtel its free to send money to any network, this should offset the money you pay to receive money from safaricom customers. However no one is moving. Yu was charging calls at one shilling per minute, no one was moving, despite porting being allowed. There is a reason no one is willing to move and this is what the competitors should address
They should take this fight to the rightful ring.
At this rate may be we should refer the matter to the night runners(or witch doctors) association (sic).
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
@Stephen, you need to look at this issue from a consumer standpoint, Safaricom's runaway market power ought to be checked to allow fair competition and ultimately better products to the consumers.
Personally I don't care if they split Safaricom into 47 smaller units for each county(jokes)..all i care about is competitive pricing, quality of service and innovative services. Right now even if Airtel were to reduce their calling rates to Zero, Safaricom wouldn't feel a pinch, mostly because we are all locked. This is bad power for Safaricom to have.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 16:44, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jared,
Yes, agreed. I remember the same happened to Softa under coca cola. But my point is that Keroche somehow is making it work for themselves even though they have a case against EABL. They are even expanding and to some extent eating into the big boys share.
They are fighting were it matters
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
Stephen,
The fact that a Keroche(Tabitha Karanja) hasn't complained about EABL doesn't excuse the issue at hand. I've been in the alcohol industry and can tell you for sure that EABL indeed is abusing it's undeclared market dominance...There are instances when they openly trade-in thier brands for competitor's brands(especially freshly launched brands)...This is however a issue for another forum.
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 17 July 2015 at 12:32, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Safaricom is clearly dominant, the question are
- Is its abusing its dominance? - Should it be punished for being dominant regardless of whether its abusing this position or not? - Can competition be enhanced by gagging one of the dominant players? - Can we say that Safaricoms dominant position is what is causing the other players not to make profits? - Will we end up with an ERC scenario?
If you critically examine the answers to the above questions, especially the fourth one, this debate is over. Casing point in the beers market we have EABL and summit and never had we heard Tabitha Karanja tell the competitive authorities to put pressure on EABL's dominance.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 AM, David Njuguna via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Paul Korir, Safaricom's market dominance is not an opinion. It is a statistical fact.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Josiah Mugambi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
You might have seen this if you are also on the KICTANET list.
Might be worth crystallizing some of this discussion for them. Worth even 15k bob
(nb: I have zero affiliation with COFEK)
http://www.cofek.co.ke/index.php/news-and-media/1269-cofek-announces-open-wr...
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:41 AM Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
as mentioned ealrier,
- There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating.
if you under price (or rob the company dry), you are unable to constantly reinvest in your network and when eventually you wake up and smell the coffee, the technology will have leaped another level, and catching up will be equivalent to starting a new business. Casing point RVR, YU, Kenya refineries, and the list continues
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@brian, the operators tried to use unorthodox means to price Safaricom out of the Kenyan market, but Saf outwitted the rest by improving on the QoS, providing reliable 3g countrywide while revamping and marketing MPesa.
How much did YU make by offering calls at a shilling? They had to close shop. Actually the Kenyan calling prices are among the lowest on the globe. Below the safaricom price level, operators will start experiencing negative returns on their investment.
PO
On Jul 15, 2015 7:14 AM, "simon njoroge via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Brian,
The network charging cheaper calls from Orange to Safaricom what profit margins did they report they last financial year?
regards
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Brian L via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Edward,
Do you mean another country in Africa or globally?
Safaricom has done its best to be where it is right now, despite the number of cases of NDA's it has manipulated (no evidence, just speculation).
Other providers Kencell was to slow to implement per second billing, Celtel focusing on postpaid products without proper billing and addressing systems in Kenya, Zain well that was just a major blunder and Airtel aiming arrows at anything that moves. Orange is just but a fire igniter.
Kenya still deserves better rates and CA has done everything in it's mandate to reduce certain charges but why does a call from Safcom to Safcom still cost more than a call from Orange to Safcom?
Let me not even go onto data (sic) rates.
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, ANTONY NDUNG'U via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@Peter,
I can't add more to your analysis of the big foreign companies in Africa. I know of a guy who was a Technical manager in one of the multinationals based in a certain country in Africa whose salary was paid in 3 different countries as a way to avoid tax, whereas he would only spend about 3 months out of his base station to the other countries. Out of curiosity I asked him what about the top executives, of-course he was not one of them and he told me the very senior management have salaries paid to private companies in countries which attract lesser corporate tax among other crazy things. The only CSR I know that corporate company did was to support a certain local club in that country, buying t-shirts and stuff. To say they are thieves is just an understatement, they thrive on corruption just to appear on top corporate magazines and increase their share prices internationally and are in the process of depleting Africa of her resources.
On the issue of rates most MTN/ other networks countries would pay maybe 2-4 times the charges paid by Safaricom subscribers.
Tony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Anthony Lenya via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Fellows,
Are we saying that the rates are competitive because of dominance by a given player or for lack of competition?
Rgds.
Anthony
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Edward Mayaka via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Peter. I concur. I dont know any country with such competitive rates.
Regards
Edward
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
From my small knowledge from my globetrotters, Kenyan rates are very competitive. I have friends all over and the verdict is we should feel blessed we enjoy very low telco rates. Does anyone know sending a text message to Uganda is so expensive, or even calling from there?
We should rejoice while the party lasts.
PO
On Jul 13, 2015 3:27 PM, "Stephen Munguti via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@dennis,
I am in the process of reading the article, but maybe we can compare voice, sms and data charges across africa and in the world as a whole
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Kioko via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I propose we start a separate thread on GoK's vs Private Sector approach to taxation.
The Economist has also weighed in on the Safaricom - Airtel battle on regulation. It also has a small, nice graph showing how Safaricom's returns are above global industry average http://www.economist.com/news/business/21657378-two-african-business-giants-...
On Monday, 13 July 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Stephen,
It is fact that many companies have engineered a model of evading taxes, *Tusemezane tukubaliane. *I don't have a moral right to discuss who and how this is done in this forum. The root cause for this is; taxes are too high in this country. So should we stiffen rules for taxes or reduce rates and encourage tax payers.
Rgds,
Isaac Kiplagat
On 13 July 2015 at 13:05, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
We need to stop trading accusations that we cannot verify, if someone has avoided tax, we need proof, if someone has abused dominance we need proof. Otherwise everything is hearsay. Of course this is not helped by the constant revelations that our multinational and local auditing firms are helping management cook books.
I never complain about politics and the reason is that these people were elected by the masses, so they are a mirror to the Kenyan population. By studying our politicians we can make general statements
As Kenyans we need to really critically analyze what we are saying and make sure we understand it. The era of roadside utterances and decisions should be over.
Engineering companies are dying because
- Nobody understands the importance of R&D, therefore little investment is done which means we will always be lagging to the other developed nations in most technologies. - There is a pricing problem which either leads to undercutting or over pricing, both of them a result of a lack of long term strategies, implementation failure and a general apathy for understanding the target and potential markets. - There is a human resource problem because of our greedy (its our turn to eat culture) and underhand thinking. We are most likely to steal and sink the company with little thought to future generations. To cover the stealing we push prices to the customer until it reaches a point they are unable to afford. At this point we create a black market and continue eating. - There is a lack of proper remuneration structure meaning a constant brain drain is being experienced
Lets face it we are more marketing than engineering, and in marketing its all about perception. And this Airtel vs Safaricom fight is all about perception.
Kudos to anyone in the engineering industry who is able to make money and contribute to our tax burden and economic growth.
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Strongly supported opinion Peter and I hope all stakeholders will have a glimpse of this and comprehend it rationally.
Regards,Isaac
On 13 July 2015 at 10:04, Thuo Wilson via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
On 11 July 2015 at 13:48, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I will respond both an an economist, then as a tech person, since im both.
One, the size of the Kenyan market is small. We should encourage more companies to grow big and fight it ugly in the international arena. Like Equity, Family Bank, Seven Seas, Symphony, etc, etc, so that our economy can grow in size. Small people focus on small problems. Safaricom is a small player in Africa, its not even a quarter of MTN. So when I see a government breaking down a small company, I get sad.
As an entrepreneur, year in year out we have invested such that I, particularly, have nothing financially to talk of, because by investing, jobs are created. I want to see our company grow. I take nothing home hoping that one day we will be a big regional player. All my efforts are geared on the bigger picture, a large innovative organization able to support the economy, and reward our staff and partners for their loyalty.
As all of us already know, all the telecoms providers apart from don't declare profits, apart from Safaricom. Airtel has been sold numerous times, has never declared a profit, yet it was a bigger company than Safaricom. The French and Indians have figured out how to make money without declaring profits, look, Telkom Kenya has been fraudulently loosing government shares (our shares) through their partner Orange so that TKL can be sold entirely as a french operation. They look east and west, while we look south, they steal from us. Look at what Indians did to KDN before selling to Liquid Telecom. These companies are here to steal and not to grow Kenya. If they don't pay taxes like other companies, if they don't support the economy by declaring profits (by paying expatriate staff reasonably thereby having something for the locals), if they don't support the economy by continuously investing and training personnel, if they keep paying handsomely the expatriates who know nothing about the local market and underpay Kenyans, let them close down.
I THREW my lovely Airtel line when I realized: 1. I keep on loosing data bundles 2. Funny machines keep calling me at night so that im in trouble with my wife 3. Their offers begin but disappear without notice, the price increasing without notice 4. Most of the areas I travel to have no clear signal 5. MPesa is convenient, I can save the day for my relative anywhere in this country, I too can be saved while in trouble without sweating. 6. Data is a problem, I never know which plan I will be on 7. Airtel Money is free, but is there guarantee that the services will remain free for the foreseeable future? When will the free offer end?
Do Kenyans really value "Free" or do they want some freedom?
As for Orange Telkom, advertising sells. But when you advertise a product and kill it the next month its as bad as it can get. I kept being called by our clients that had bought black box machines, very many of them. People who had invested in the CDMA because their areas of operation are underserved by Telkom Kenya. We did expensive PBX solutions, they invested in airtime to keep their investments running. Without reasonable and sufficient notice, Telkom Orange killed the service.
They have the fastest internet with a lot of gaps, across the country. But who knows? If the Skunks don't know, pray heaven who else knows? The experience should be seamless as nothing short of that will backfire. Orange money is literary non existent, apart from the "Money" bit, I don't know where a single Orange Money agent can be found.
If all women or men are avoiding you, however handsome or beautiful you are, the solution will definitely be in the mirror. No one should be forced to be with the person they don't love. I'm sorry to say this, but Kenyans distaste these companies until the day they will know how to woo us. Kenyans are peculiar, thats why Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. We know what works for us, and we go for it, however costly.
Let me tell you a story. I love locomotives, im very much in love with the railway. In fact im very excited with the SGR. Once in a while I make a deliberate attempt to use the trains, and in the many decades I have been an adult, I keep going there to experience the ride. Let me just say those RVR things are nothing more than expensive rolling stock, they charge high, the service extremely poor, the trains are always very late or never leave at all. Or they brake down along the way. When I was young and KR was a government service, everything was beautiful. I lived near a railway halt, it was always rosy, until RVR came. That's how Kenya Railways was killed, by selling it to expatriates. See, KR has no competitors, yet it cant declare a profit. Thats why I have a problem with that law.
And so even if Safaricom is broken down, and with these expatriates that have learned the art of tax avoidance, and loss making, and poor remuneration of locals, we will always bleed our income. At least the contribution of Safaricom is there for everyone to see. I rest my case, as a layman.
You read my mind and did it in better english :). SAFARICOM should not be intimidated and should not be declared whatever they want.
SAFcom though their service isn't 100% good are 50times better than " *these*" others. Safcom should not be punished for their success while in-efficiency thrive in other telcos.
Kind Regards,
Wilson./
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No. Nothing is going to change Safaricom's market position unless the others up their game. Let me tell you a story. I bought an Orange line a while back, trouble is, I can't hear well when I call any other line while my internet is on. At times I can't just hear any thing even without internet. On Safaricom I think the only problem we had was dropped calls, nothing more. That one was solved. I can't stand Airtel because while the calls don't drop, they have too many calls from machines on their network, their tarrifs change without notice, and they don't love their customers having either airtime or bundles, the two mysteriously disappear without notice. Same for YU. And the customer service of YU, Airtel and Orange have no clue what needs to be done. Many times I've helped Orange customer service because I couldn't stand them misleading a customer in my presence. My two cents. PO
I agree with ^Peter above, the machines calling you at strange hours of the night was such a bad idea, felt like a creepy dirty scam. Regards, John K. On 21 July 2015 at 08:08, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
No. Nothing is going to change Safaricom's market position unless the others up their game.
Let me tell you a story. I bought an Orange line a while back, trouble is, I can't hear well when I call any other line while my internet is on. At times I can't just hear any thing even without internet.
On Safaricom I think the only problem we had was dropped calls, nothing more. That one was solved.
I can't stand Airtel because while the calls don't drop, they have too many calls from machines on their network, their tarrifs change without notice, and they don't love their customers having either airtime or bundles, the two mysteriously disappear without notice. Same for YU.
And the customer service of YU, Airtel and Orange have no clue what needs to be done. Many times I've helped Orange customer service because I couldn't stand them misleading a customer in my presence.
My two cents.
PO
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I am of the opinion that Equity should have bought into Yu of course as a joint venture with another reputable consistent telecommunications service provider. Would really have loved to see how that would have panned out On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:43 AM, John K. via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I agree with ^Peter above, the machines calling you at strange hours of the night was such a bad idea, felt like a creepy dirty scam.
Regards, John K.
On 21 July 2015 at 08:08, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
No. Nothing is going to change Safaricom's market position unless the others up their game.
Let me tell you a story. I bought an Orange line a while back, trouble is, I can't hear well when I call any other line while my internet is on. At times I can't just hear any thing even without internet.
On Safaricom I think the only problem we had was dropped calls, nothing more. That one was solved.
I can't stand Airtel because while the calls don't drop, they have too many calls from machines on their network, their tarrifs change without notice, and they don't love their customers having either airtime or bundles, the two mysteriously disappear without notice. Same for YU.
And the customer service of YU, Airtel and Orange have no clue what needs to be done. Many times I've helped Orange customer service because I couldn't stand them misleading a customer in my presence.
My two cents.
PO
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I think if Equity acquired YU would be a bad venture and the MVNO is better so that they focus on financial services. The joint venture between Airtel and Equity makes more sense for both. Now Airtel needs to use up excess capacity they have and Equity needs to offer mobile financial services without worrying if the service is off or a base station is off. Regards, Job Muriuki, Skype: heviejob On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I am of the opinion that Equity should have bought into Yu of course as a joint venture with another reputable consistent telecommunications service provider. Would really have loved to see how that would have panned out
On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:43 AM, John K. via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I agree with ^Peter above, the machines calling you at strange hours of the night was such a bad idea, felt like a creepy dirty scam.
Regards, John K.
On 21 July 2015 at 08:08, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
No. Nothing is going to change Safaricom's market position unless the others up their game.
Let me tell you a story. I bought an Orange line a while back, trouble is, I can't hear well when I call any other line while my internet is on. At times I can't just hear any thing even without internet.
On Safaricom I think the only problem we had was dropped calls, nothing more. That one was solved.
I can't stand Airtel because while the calls don't drop, they have too many calls from machines on their network, their tarrifs change without notice, and they don't love their customers having either airtime or bundles, the two mysteriously disappear without notice. Same for YU.
And the customer service of YU, Airtel and Orange have no clue what needs to be done. Many times I've helped Orange customer service because I couldn't stand them misleading a customer in my presence.
My two cents.
PO
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If you are in the business of selling the network, you will have to be concerned with the service. Unless of course you think you are selling airtime at which point i rest my case. On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 12:05 PM, Job Muriuki <muriukin@gmail.com> wrote:
I think if Equity acquired YU would be a bad venture and the MVNO is better so that they focus on financial services. The joint venture between Airtel and Equity makes more sense for both. Now Airtel needs to use up excess capacity they have and Equity needs to offer mobile financial services without worrying if the service is off or a base station is off.
Regards, Job Muriuki,
Skype: heviejob
On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I am of the opinion that Equity should have bought into Yu of course as a joint venture with another reputable consistent telecommunications service provider. Would really have loved to see how that would have panned out
On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:43 AM, John K. via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I agree with ^Peter above, the machines calling you at strange hours of the night was such a bad idea, felt like a creepy dirty scam.
Regards, John K.
On 21 July 2015 at 08:08, Peter Osotsi via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
No. Nothing is going to change Safaricom's market position unless the others up their game.
Let me tell you a story. I bought an Orange line a while back, trouble is, I can't hear well when I call any other line while my internet is on. At times I can't just hear any thing even without internet.
On Safaricom I think the only problem we had was dropped calls, nothing more. That one was solved.
I can't stand Airtel because while the calls don't drop, they have too many calls from machines on their network, their tarrifs change without notice, and they don't love their customers having either airtime or bundles, the two mysteriously disappear without notice. Same for YU.
And the customer service of YU, Airtel and Orange have no clue what needs to be done. Many times I've helped Orange customer service because I couldn't stand them misleading a customer in my presence.
My two cents.
PO
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participants (28)
-
Anthony Lenya -
ANTONY NDUNG'U -
Brian L -
Brian Monyi -
David Njuguna -
Dennis Kioko -
Edward Mayaka -
geoffrey gitagia -
George Irungu -
Isaac Kiplagat -
Jangita -
Jared Koyier -
Job Muriuki -
John K. -
Josiah Mugambi -
Kennedy Kairu Kariuki -
Leonard Kore -
Mark Mwangi -
Moses Kiragu -
Paul Korir -
Peter Karunyu -
Peter Osotsi -
simon njoroge -
Stephen Munguti -
Thuo Wilson -
Timothy Yegon -
Vincent Mosoti -
wa