Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to it?
Its amazing how its seems now looking at it differently. Being the genius he was, did he add more innovative features to the Linux kernel? For those who know both the Unix and Linux kernel well enough, please enlighten us more. -- **--Have you done any code today?--**
Any kernel engineers or keen coders on this list who enjoy work at the DNA level of software? Am not interested in googling for results, want to read first hand from Kenyans what they know about the 2 kernels. This thread will be very interesting and inspirational to many coders/developers to read about. The Linux kernel is open, who has gone into it and compared the differences.
Seriously, I had a few hours spare today to write a some lines on my IDE but nothing was happening between the mind and the keyboard. So decided to get mentally challenged by listing this thread, hoping there was some inspiration from others. The lack of any input is so the reason wny I find the tech sector so boring, I found better inspirational videos on youtube than this tech community list. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl1rmaKFep4&feature=related :-) On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:11 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Any kernel engineers or keen coders on this list who enjoy work at the DNA level of software? Am not interested in googling for results, want to read first hand from Kenyans what they know about the 2 kernels. This thread will be very interesting and inspirational to many coders/developers to read about. The Linux kernel is open, who has gone into it and compared the differences.
"*Am not interested in googling for results**, want to read first hand from Kenyans what they know about the 2 kernels.*" If you think about it long enough, you will find that with the above two params set, your query will return 0 results. _______________________________________________ *Good judgement comes from Experience.* *Most of that comes from Bad Judgement.* _______________________________________________ * * 2011/11/26 aki <aki275@gmail.com>
Seriously, I had a few hours spare today to write a some lines on my IDE but nothing was happening between the mind and the keyboard. So decided to get mentally challenged by listing this thread, hoping there was some inspiration from others. The lack of any input is so the reason wny I find the tech sector so boring, I found better inspirational videos on youtube than this tech community list. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl1rmaKFep4&feature=related :-)
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:11 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Any kernel engineers or keen coders on this list who enjoy work at the DNA level of software? Am not interested in googling for results, want to read first hand from Kenyans what they know about the 2 kernels. This thread will be very interesting and inspirational to many coders/developers to read about. The Linux kernel is open, who has gone into it and compared the differences.
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On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 9:17 PM, James Nzomo <kazikubwa@gmail.com> wrote:
"*Am not interested in googling for results**, want to read first hand from Kenyans what they know about the 2 kernels.*" If you think about it long enough, you will find that with the above two params set, your query will return 0 results.
--
@James, what a total disappointment that no one in Kenya, even those heavily involved in linux, knows the Kernel well enough to distinguish between reverse engineering or innovation. Heck, the chinese are reputed to be expert reverse engineers, however the likes of Linus doing the same thing is really a wake up call. Someone like him cannot inspire others if the Kernel is just another chinese expertise. ( well, the chinese are much better and do a lot of other original stuff, like were the creators of gunpowder and had innovative ideas of tying gunpowder rockets to a chair to send a human flying ) :-( **--Have you done any code today?--**
Lead the way. Reverse engineer something and we shall follow you. NB. Opensource doesn't count because your result will either be a fork or a copy pasta _______________________________________________ *Good judgement comes from Experience.* *Most of that comes from Bad Judgement.* _______________________________________________ * * 2011/11/26 aki <aki275@gmail.com>
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 9:17 PM, James Nzomo <kazikubwa@gmail.com> wrote:
"*Am not interested in googling for results**, want to read first hand from Kenyans what they know about the 2 kernels.*" If you think about it long enough, you will find that with the above two params set, your query will return 0 results.
--
@James, what a total disappointment that no one in Kenya, even those heavily involved in linux, knows the Kernel well enough to distinguish between reverse engineering or innovation. Heck, the chinese are reputed to be expert reverse engineers, however the likes of Linus doing the same thing is really a wake up call. Someone like him cannot inspire others if the Kernel is just another chinese expertise. ( well, the chinese are much better and do a lot of other original stuff, like were the creators of gunpowder and had innovative ideas of tying gunpowder rockets to a chair to send a human flying )
:-(
**--Have you done any code today?--**
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On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 6:36 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@James, what a total disappointment that no one in Kenya, even those heavily involved in linux, knows the Kernel well enough to distinguish between reverse engineering or innovation.
Aki, sometimes you sound really condescending, and probably that's why the silence is so loud. BR, S -- This message represents the official view of the voices in my head.
@James,@Steve If I knew the kernel well enough, I'd surely be able to balance it out whether it was a case of reverse engineering or innovation. Around the Linus came up with the Kernel, which is IMO a reverse engineering case as there are no differences between the BSD and Linux Kernel, supposedly PC BSD was already working on completion of an open Unix Kernel. Though the name Unix could not be used. However, it would be quite inspirational if Linus did something different or unique given his genius mind. And given that a lot of Kenyan Developers build systems on Linux, surely they would be able to seperate suspicion from fact, get us involved in the Kernel discussion and I think a lot of progarmmers would appreciate the depth and inspiration that drove early programmers to the limits of development. This thread is programmer to progarmmer so what do programmers use as inspirational material? Rgds. :-)
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 11:49 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@James,@Steve
If I knew the kernel well enough, I'd surely be able to balance it out whether it was a case of reverse engineering or innovation. Around the Linus came up with the Kernel, which is IMO a reverse engineering case as there are no differences between the BSD and Linux Kernel, supposedly PC BSD was already working on completion of an open Unix Kernel. Though the name Unix could not be used. However, it would be quite inspirational if Linus did something different or unique given his genius mind. And given that a lot of Kenyan Developers build systems on Linux, surely they would be able to seperate suspicion from fact, get us involved in the Kernel discussion and I think a lot of progarmmers would appreciate the depth and inspiration that drove early programmers to the limits of development.
This thread is programmer to progarmmer so what do programmers use as inspirational material?
Rgds. :-)
If you took the time to do a bit of research on your own, you wouldn't be asking some of these ignorant questions. But of course, you are "not interested in googling for results, want to read first hand from Kenyans what they know about the 2 kernels". It's really hard to understand what you're trying to achieve by some of your posts. Joseph.
@Aki Talk to my great Friend Ken Kasina. He has been a part of the team that has been doing something on Fedora. Am sure he is lurking somewhere in the list. Regards, Muendo On 27 November 2011 02:39, Joseph Wayodi <jwayodi@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 11:49 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@James,@Steve
If I knew the kernel well enough, I'd surely be able to balance it out whether it was a case of reverse engineering or innovation. Around the Linus came up with the Kernel, which is IMO a reverse engineering case as there are no differences between the BSD and Linux Kernel, supposedly PC BSD was already working on completion of an open Unix Kernel. Though the name Unix could not be used. However, it would be quite inspirational if Linus did something different or unique given his genius mind. And given that a lot of Kenyan Developers build systems on Linux, surely they would be able to seperate suspicion from fact, get us involved in the Kernel discussion and I think a lot of progarmmers would appreciate the depth and inspiration that drove early programmers to the limits of development.
This thread is programmer to progarmmer so what do programmers use as inspirational material?
Rgds. :-)
If you took the time to do a bit of research on your own, you wouldn't be asking some of these ignorant questions. But of course, you are "not interested in googling for results, want to read first hand from Kenyans what they know about the 2 kernels". It's really hard to understand what you're trying to achieve by some of your posts.
Joseph.
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@Joseph, am I really ignorant in asking questions why a genius programmer so good as Linus, who probably would have created another computer language or even a better electric car or green energy would sit at his desk and write a reverse engineered code for a propreitary system at that time? What would drive such a talented person to do this? All the genius computer people of that time gave the world programming languages, am sure if they wanted to reverse engineer anything, it would be child's play for them. @Muendo, thank you. Ken Kasina and what he did on BSD knows much much more than a bunch of linux operating system admins. I hope he will share his insights into this valuable thread as a coder. If only he was an active contributor to this list, he would be such a valuable contributor and an inspiration. Me thots. :-) Rgds.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 8:17 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Joseph, am I really ignorant in asking questions why a genius programmer so good as Linus, who probably would have created another computer language or even a better electric car or green energy would sit at his desk and write a reverse engineered code for a propreitary system at that time? What would drive such a talented person to do this? All the genius computer people of that time gave the world programming languages, am sure if they wanted to reverse engineer anything, it would be child's play for them.
It's ignorance because the answers to many of questions you ask are already very well documented. If you were "interested in googling", you'd find this: < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux>, and then read it instead of asking here.
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 1:26 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Its amazing how its seems now looking at it differently. Being the genius he was, did he add more innovative features to the Linux kernel? For those who know both the Unix and Linux kernel well enough, please enlighten us more.
Its amazing how its seems now looking at it differently. Being the genius he was, did he add more innovative features to the Linux kernel? For those who know both the Unix and Linux kernel well enough, please enlighten us more.
@Aki, actually what Linus did was to write an alternative for the MINIX microkernel that had been available at the time as an academic operating system. See more here [ http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/brown/followup/ ]. Linus had been an avid follower of the system and was interested in extending it. When he contacted the original author, Prof. Tanenbaum, about it, Andy did not like his design. Linus was writing a monolithic kernel while MINIX is a microkernel so they disagreed in principle. Torvalds then decided, "WTH?" and in six months he had whipped out his own UNIX-like clone. The other thing you should realise is that UNIX is not a kernel. There probably has never been one (technically) since the original AT&T UNIX by Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie. As we speak, UNIX is actually a standard [ http://www.unix.org/what_is_unix.html ] that computer systems implement if they adhere to the POSIX (Portable operating systems interface) [ http://www.unix.org/version4/ ]. So if you write an O.S with standard libraries defined like "string.h", "time.h", "malloc.h", and has utilities like shell and pipes, cat, ls etc and implemented according to the specifications, you essentially have a UNIX-like system. Find more here [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX ]. So Solaris / Macintosh are not UNIX but UNIX-certified. The real innovation that Linus did was to make it pretty easy for guys to port devices to his UNIX clone. "Pure" UNICes are pretty hard to install on generic hardware since they really value reliability and perfomance. They mostly run on particular pieces of hardware and they do it very well, consider Macintoshes / FreeBSD. That is why Linux in different variations runs on different devices (Super-computers, mainframes, P.Cs, mobiles, embedded devices, etc) unlike any other operating system available. Lastly, the guesses as to why he actually did it? The guesses go from the fact that the BSDi system that was being used at the time for teaching purposes (Universities and all) had a court case pending, something about patent-infringement. Its future was so uncertain, most people were avoiding it, including companies. That is why Linux caught up so fast and Linus at some point admitted that if *BSD did not have any issues, he would never have written his own system. For the rest of the users and kernel developers, some say the biggest problem was that BSD did not allow guys to dual-boot with Windows, so they could not essentially run it side-by side with DOS. That plus the fact that Linux supported many other devices, even if not as perfectly, is the idea behind Linux wild success. Hope that helps, corrections are highly welcome. Martin.
--
**--Have you done any code today?--**
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Hi Aki, I know a guy who re-wrote the linux kernel for embedded systems for automation and others who went ahead to even write drivers to communicate with the system chips they had created. They are all on the list and I guess they respect what everyone has achieved since in one way or another it is assising them in their life. Something else, on this list are guys who have created games, apps etc but don't critic others or judge them. My point is, is it really fair to critic/judge Linus, he still goes down in history as the father of linux.. ./TheMburu On 11/27/11, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 1:26 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Its amazing how its seems now looking at it differently. Being the genius he was, did he add more innovative features to the Linux kernel? For those who know both the Unix and Linux kernel well enough, please enlighten us more.
Its amazing how its seems now looking at it differently. Being the genius he was, did he add more innovative features to the Linux kernel? For those who know both the Unix and Linux kernel well enough, please enlighten us more.
@Aki, actually what Linus did was to write an alternative for the MINIX microkernel that had been available at the time as an academic operating system. See more here [ http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/brown/followup/ ]. Linus had been an avid follower of the system and was interested in extending it. When he contacted the original author, Prof. Tanenbaum, about it, Andy did not like his design. Linus was writing a monolithic kernel while MINIX is a microkernel so they disagreed in principle. Torvalds then decided, "WTH?" and in six months he had whipped out his own UNIX-like clone.
The other thing you should realise is that UNIX is not a kernel. There probably has never been one (technically) since the original AT&T UNIX by Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie. As we speak, UNIX is actually a standard [ http://www.unix.org/what_is_unix.html ] that computer systems implement if they adhere to the POSIX (Portable operating systems interface) [ http://www.unix.org/version4/ ]. So if you write an O.S with standard libraries defined like "string.h", "time.h", "malloc.h", and has utilities like shell and pipes, cat, ls etc and implemented according to the specifications, you essentially have a UNIX-like system. Find more here [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX ]. So Solaris / Macintosh are not UNIX but UNIX-certified.
The real innovation that Linus did was to make it pretty easy for guys to port devices to his UNIX clone. "Pure" UNICes are pretty hard to install on generic hardware since they really value reliability and perfomance. They mostly run on particular pieces of hardware and they do it very well, consider Macintoshes / FreeBSD. That is why Linux in different variations runs on different devices (Super-computers, mainframes, P.Cs, mobiles, embedded devices, etc) unlike any other operating system available.
Lastly, the guesses as to why he actually did it? The guesses go from the fact that the BSDi system that was being used at the time for teaching purposes (Universities and all) had a court case pending, something about patent-infringement. Its future was so uncertain, most people were avoiding it, including companies. That is why Linux caught up so fast and Linus at some point admitted that if *BSD did not have any issues, he would never have written his own system. For the rest of the users and kernel developers, some say the biggest problem was that BSD did not allow guys to dual-boot with Windows, so they could not essentially run it side-by side with DOS. That plus the fact that Linux supported many other devices, even if not as perfectly, is the idea behind Linux wild success.
Hope that helps, corrections are highly welcome.
Martin.
--
**--Have you done any code today?--**
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-- Conservatism is the adherence to the old tried against the new untried.
@Joseph, your point is out of order in the context of this discussion. I clearly asked an opinion from those kenyans who are at kernel level not those who know how to google. @Martin, @TheMburu, nice write-ups. However, I'm not totally convinced. Surely he knew that he was going down the road of cheap replicas/imitations of propreitary or existing systems, am sure he would have wanted it to be different. What drove him and what was his motivation when he sat infront of a screen running a compiler? What were his thoughts because he must have suffered from the same mental blocks that am certain lot of coders suffer from ( i.e me included ). *A coder and a mental block: You know what needs to be done, but you look at the screen with no commitment between the mind and keyboard*. @TheMburu, what drove those guys you know to write for embedded systems? Money? Some thots. :-) **--Have you done any code today?--**
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:56 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Joseph, your point is out of order in the context of this discussion. I clearly asked an opinion from those kenyans who are at kernel level not those who know how to google.
Linus has given many interviews, explaining why he wrote Linux. He's even written an autobiography explaining the history. On top of that, there are public mailing lists that captured the communications during the early days. I don't know what value this "opinion from Kenyans who are at kernel level" is meant to add. And, if you took the time to read the history, you'd know he didn't reverse engineer any pre-existing system.
Let me jump in on this @Aki his motivation was to learn the inner workings of his new computer at the time which was a 80386 better known as a 386 to some of us. He was a student at the time and some of his classes facinated him enough to spare a lot of his free time to do something useful. Making money was not on his mind at the time. So instead of him using his new found coding skills to write viruses or hack into the network, he figured He could get his program to run on a 386 and that was his motivation. As a matter of fact, a lot of his initial code was considered bad (especially being C that just compounds things) and a lot of it could not compile too even on gcc which it was coded on. You could only run his S as an emulator on Minix and no other OS. Why wasnt it portable? The thing is he made sure he used all the gcc compiler directives (which were not supported by other compilers) making it not compilable unless you used GNU/gcc compiler. Why? Like I said he was "learning on the job" hence the need to practically test every directive written in the gcc manual. There used to be a lot of mails on usenet of him asking for help on how to do this and that and people would chip in. So basically what he originally created was an OS emulator than run on Minix and that had not much commercial use at the time. Quote "cheap replicas/imitations of propreitary or existing systems, am sure he would have wanted it to be different." What Linux is today was not his intention it is simply a side effect of his hobby and efforts to teach himself more than what he learned in school. 2ndly you can censor the guy for making it close to what Minix was because it was the reference. Like I said he used to request source code of libraries and drivers other people ha done for minix so he could get an idea which is normal. ----- Original Message ----- | From: "aki" <aki275@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:56:19 PM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix | Kernel or did he add more innovative features to it? | @Joseph, your point is out of order in the context of this | discussion. I clearly asked an opinion from those kenyans who are at | kernel level not those who know how to google. | @Martin, @TheMburu, | nice write-ups. However, I'm not totally convinced. Surely he knew | that he was going down the road of cheap replicas/imitations of | propreitary or existing systems, am sure he would have wanted it to | be different. | What drove him and what was his motivation when he sat infront of a | screen running a compiler? What were his thoughts because he must | have suffered from the same mental blocks that am certain lot of | coders suffer from ( i.e me included ). A coder and a mental block: | You know what needs to be done, but you look at the screen with no | commitment between the mind and keyboard . @TheMburu, what drove | those guys you know to write for embedded systems? Money? | Some thots. :-) | **--Have you done any code today?--** | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
Now we rocking!! :-) Keep going on this subject guys. So he really was not creating a cheap replica/imitation as is so normal of the copy-left world, what a relief in that I would never be able to understand how this would motivate anyone. Also keep in mind your contribution on the subject of coder and the mental block that I wrote about. Do you coders at any time suffer from this when writing code? I go though this cycle quite a lot, write code and almost complete what I started out, then delete it as am not happy with the outcome. It works fine but I need it to do something else too, so I make my notes or diagram and put it on a pinups and let it go for a few weeks. I even thought my laptop screen was the cause of the problem, so swapped to better or larger screens and still nothing changed. Do I find writing code boring? No, I find it extremely interesting because I can get the dumb-arse comp to do others things too like automate functions or do things that I cannot find in other programs. For e.g. I wrote a small program when I started out to watch a folder where I download my camera images so that it would move them automatically to a specific input folder where I can open the photo edit program without scrolling through all the thumbnails. So if you don't write code for commercial gain, social gain or even that would not have any value, how would you find yourself in front of the screen? That is why I felt those who knew the kernel level as Linus did would hold the answer to this. And we are starting to get there... I don't want ot hear from Linus, I want to hear from kenyans. @Steve, great stuff. @Joseph, bado. Some thots. Rgds. :-)
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 3:02 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
...
That is why I felt those who knew the kernel level as Linus did would hold the answer to this.
...
I don't want ot hear from Linus, I want to hear from kenyans. ...
Oh my ...
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Joseph Wayodi <jwayodi@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 3:02 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
...
That is why I felt those who knew the kernel level as Linus did would hold the answer to this.
...
I don't want ot hear from Linus, I want to hear from kenyans. ...
@Joseph, pls read my 1st,2nd and 3rd contributions. They contain all my points I added. Now rather the the usual style of you linux guys correcting my posts as if someone's relative has been offended, can you please indulge more at kernel level and let's see how it goes. The floor is open to you too....that's the whole basis of a discussion. Rgds. -- **--Have you done any code today?--**
That cycle used to happen to me quite a bit long ago until I got more organized. I now use graph paper to prototype and wire frame any gui apps am working on and an A3 plain paper drawing pad to chart and take notes on the architecture before i start to code. Saves me load of time. traditionally I dont do much kernel level stuff until now. My motivation? I needed to patch a Nvidia 3D graphics driver on Ubuntu. I got a new Nvidia card and am using it on a dual boot machine. on the windows boot I use a resolution of 2048 x 1536 while on ubuntu I get no more than 1280 x 1024 so i got fed up and decided to do something about it. On top of this I am also porting a graphics rendering engine that makes use of the CUDA/OpenCL capabilities of Nvidia 3D cards from 64 to 32 bit. currently its experimental. ----- Original Message ----- | From: "aki" <aki275@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 3:02:55 PM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix | Kernel or did he add more innovative features to it? | Now we rocking!! :-) Keep going on this subject guys. So he really | was not creating a cheap replica/imitation as is so normal of the | copy-left world, what a relief in that I would never be able to | understand how this would motivate anyone. | Also keep in mind your contribution on the subject of coder and the | mental block that I wrote about. Do you coders at any time suffer | from this when writing code? I go though this cycle quite a lot, | write code and almost complete what I started out, then delete it as | am not happy with the outcome. It works fine but I need it to do | something else too, so I make my notes or diagram and put it on a | pinups and let it go for a few weeks. I even thought my laptop | screen was the cause of the problem, so swapped to better or larger | screens and still nothing changed. Do I find writing code boring? | No, I find it extremely interesting because I can get the dumb-arse | comp to do others things too like automate functions or do things | that I cannot find in other programs. For e.g. I wrote a small | program when I started out to watch a folder where I download my | camera images so that it would move them automatically to a specific | input folder where I can open the photo edit program without | scrolling through all the thumbnails. | So if you don't write code for commercial gain, social gain or even | that would not have any value, how would you find yourself in front | of the screen? That is why I felt those who knew the kernel level as | Linus did would hold the answer to this. And we are starting to get | there... I don't want ot hear from Linus, I want to hear from | kenyans. | @Steve, great stuff. | @Joseph, bado. | Some thots. | Rgds. :-) | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
That cycle used to happen to me quite a bit long ago until I got more organized. I now use graph paper to prototype and wire frame any gui apps am working on and an A3 plain paper drawing pad to chart and take notes on the architecture before i start to code. Saves me load of time.
traditionally I dont do much kernel level stuff until now. My motivation? I needed to patch a Nvidia 3D graphics driver on Ubuntu. I got a new Nvidia card and am using it on a dual boot machine. on the windows boot I use a resolution of 2048 x 1536 while on ubuntu I get no more than 1280 x 1024 so i got fed up and decided to do something about it. On top of this I am also porting a graphics rendering engine that makes use of the CUDA/OpenCL capabilities of Nvidia 3D cards from 64 to 32 bit. currently its experimental.
Thanks for sharing those wise words. You are doing some really complex stuff, it must take a lot of motivation to even start on such. The Jedi order honours you as a code warrior for KE. I'm unable to find words of the famous Yoda in this context but am sure there would be some interesting ones. :-) At least you are not one of those who will download say e.g. ubuntu only to discover that some USB functionality is missing, go the ubuntu knowledgebase and re-build using the latest kernel build. Then say they need funds to contribute code back to the community. Its never simple with such people. **--Have you done any code today?--**
@Aki when you have a few hours to spare please read After the Software Wars http://goo.gl/l9WHG On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 18:12, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
That cycle used to happen to me quite a bit long ago until I got more organized. I now use graph paper to prototype and wire frame any gui apps am working on and an A3 plain paper drawing pad to chart and take notes on the architecture before i start to code. Saves me load of time.
traditionally I dont do much kernel level stuff until now. My motivation? I needed to patch a Nvidia 3D graphics driver on Ubuntu. I got a new Nvidia card and am using it on a dual boot machine. on the windows boot I use a resolution of 2048 x 1536 while on ubuntu I get no more than 1280 x 1024 so i got fed up and decided to do something about it. On top of this I am also porting a graphics rendering engine that makes use of the CUDA/OpenCL capabilities of Nvidia 3D cards from 64 to 32 bit. currently its experimental.
Thanks for sharing those wise words. You are doing some really complex stuff, it must take a lot of motivation to even start on such. The Jedi order honours you as a code warrior for KE. I'm unable to find words of the famous Yoda in this context but am sure there would be some interesting ones. :-)
At least you are not one of those who will download say e.g. ubuntu only to discover that some USB functionality is missing, go the ubuntu knowledgebase and re-build using the latest kernel build. Then say they need funds to contribute code back to the community. Its never simple with such people.
**--Have you done any code today?--**
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-- for me, it is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring /carl sagan
@Amanya, thank you very much. Its definately a read with an open mind. Sample Chapter 6 as I've pasted below, this is close to reverse engineering a concept. And this has been one of my points all along on freedom/open source. At least FSF as stallman said talks about ethics while Opensource does not. That is why on last saturday when I had time to code and when nothing was happening, I got wondering looking at the computer screen. What, seriously, what would drive or motivate someone who has no financial or social or any gains to be gotten from writing free-code as deep as the kernel. I think linus really wanted to produce something that would compete with the propreitary world and this was his overall motivation and I hope this book will change that opinion. There is not a single successful freedom/open source software that has been successful because it was different and not a feature copy of the proprietary. I mean, can you imagine that e.g. our Mobile Devs created a very successful app for KE and made it their idea proprietary under business, only to find someone else doing something very similar for pure financial gain and giving it for free and calling the proprietary devs corporate evils and anti-development. Will add more thots after the read over the weekend. Linux has learned from Windows While the Windows NT kernel was state of the art at the time it was released in 1993, most of its good ideas have been learned well and absorbed, in spite of the fact that the code has never been released. For example, the Linux kernel supports asynchronous I/O (input/output), an innovative way to do reads and writes without tying up “thread” resources. This was an innovation first made widespread in Windows NT. The ability to load code dynamically is another important feature the Linux kernel adopted from NT and others. Plug and play and suspend and hibernate was a collaboration between Microsoft and hardware companies in the 1990s, and Linux now supports this feature. Throughout the free software stack, developers have incorporated good ideas from the outside world. There is no Not Invented Here syndrome in free software; a good idea is a good idea, and existing code is even better. In software today, the biggest impediment to sharing ideas is not ego, but license agreements. On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 1:16 PM, amanya <whynnot@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki when you have a few hours to spare please read After the Software Wars http://goo.gl/l9WHG
@Amanya, very interesting book. Does not say much about the Kerenl, features and developers but the author has some excellent point. I'll post another thread. :-)
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 1:56 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Amanya, thank you very much. Its definately a read with an open mind. Sample Chapter 6 as I've pasted below, this is close to reverse engineering a concept. And this has been one of my points all along on freedom/open source. At least FSF as stallman said talks about ethics while Opensource does not.
are you saying reverse engineering is unethical ?
Hehehe... @Ashok, were you somewhere in the skunkslist woods? What do you think of your question because when I asked the main question on what motivated linus to create the kernel and if any kenyans were at that level would share that inspiration, you seemed to have been non-communicative. :-) Rgds. On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 3:48 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 1:56 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Amanya, thank you very much. Its definately a read with an open mind. Sample Chapter 6 as I've pasted below, this is close to reverse engineering a concept. And this has been one of my points all along on freedom/open source. At least FSF as stallman said talks about ethics while Opensource does not.
are you saying reverse engineering is unethical ?
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 4:00 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
What do you think of your question because when I asked the main question on what motivated linus to create the kernel
dont know, dont care. Linus probably wrote some good code and got lucky.
@Ashok, as you seem to be quite ardent follower of the open source world. Say that Linux hold 10% of the computer market by now, and that Ubuntu is the main OS used, can you please provide some info on the below, assuming that Linux has not been used as a "ngamia" roaming the open roads for free transport: - How many Linux Applications have been written from kenya for the same plaftorm with the last 5 years? - How many Kenyan coders/developers have maintained a commited relationship with Ubuntu or their linux choice and contributed patches, updates or financial support? Rgds.
Aki software has no nationality. When you frame your questions that way you make it look like one of those Kenyan peculiarities. Here is a quote from the book: While Drupal had 45,000 users in 2006, it received only $1,000 in donations, for an average donation of 2 pennies per person On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 16:29, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok, as you seem to be quite ardent follower of the open source world. Say that Linux hold 10% of the computer market by now, and that Ubuntu is the main OS used, can you please provide some info on the below, assuming that Linux has not been used as a "ngamia" roaming the open roads for free transport:
- How many Linux Applications have been written from kenya for the same plaftorm with the last 5 years?
- How many Kenyan coders/developers have maintained a commited relationship with Ubuntu or their linux choice and contributed patches, updates or financial support?
Rgds.
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@Amnya, thnks again. :-) Just general comments from me. However, along with this thread I also want to bring up the fact that kenyan coders/developers also do not see any benefit in writing code for Ubuntu or other Linux versions. In fact this is quite shocking, given the strong following that linux has. So the creator of the system made it open and free ( for various reasons known so far ) , given the empowerment to the rest to do what they like whether to improve, market etc. I'd really love to see the Linux OS kenyan coders/developers list who have created applications or provided patches,updates or financial support and see their contributions over the last 5 years to the OS. Let's cut to the chase. If we cannot link exactly why linus wrote the kernel, and we have no one who does anything at this level nor even write any apps, then it is a message loud and clear. People hate developing for this platform, lets get it out in the open. Its free but its still disliked. Rgds. On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 4:51 PM, amanya <whynnot@gmail.com> wrote:
Aki software has no nationality. When you frame your questions that way you make it look like one of those Kenyan peculiarities. Here is a quote from the book:
While Drupal had 45,000 users in 2006, it received only $1,000 in donations, for an average donation of 2 pennies per person
@Amanya, my apology, I mis-spelled your name in an earlier post. :-) @Ashok, though am not Mr Microsoft or Mr Mac but am Mr Proprietary in the context of the mails, you have asked a very good question. Why if Windows holds e.g. 50% of the market share are desktop apps not being created that fast and diverse? I can tell you that when we have a strong C# and ASP.NETfocus group/list, these are things that need to be answered and looked into. This is a large coder/developer market share to not only create but also financially benefit from and if members of the group will earn from their coding/developing, that is even better. Now @Ashok, for my turn to ask you a good question since you have no idea why linus did the kernel. On the Web, LAMP is the standard for most web apps. Are there any kenyans contributing to any of these software/foundations in code, patches, updates or financially? Developers must be making money obviously, so what about the obligations of using free-code? Rgds. --------------------------------------- ** Before this thread goes crazy and in the wrong direction, I'd like to make it clear to all those onlist who are not developers but earn an income on freedom/open/proprietary software to ignore this thread completely as its mostly about coders/developers and so there will be some un-necessary or heated exchanges. These are our views as a bunch of crazies, and do not represent any authority, accuracy whatsover. ** ----------------------------------------
Aki, Since you are beyond help (on a lighter note) let me enable you. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Bill_Gates_Letter_to_Hobb... In paragraph 5, Bill Gates shares your sentiments On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 5:44 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Amanya, my apology, I mis-spelled your name in an earlier post. :-)
@Ashok, though am not Mr Microsoft or Mr Mac but am Mr Proprietary in the context of the mails, you have asked a very good question. Why if Windows holds e.g. 50% of the market share are desktop apps not being created that fast and diverse? I can tell you that when we have a strong C# and ASP.NETfocus group/list, these are things that need to be answered and looked into. This is a large coder/developer market share to not only create but also financially benefit from and if members of the group will earn from their coding/developing, that is even better.
Now @Ashok, for my turn to ask you a good question since you have no idea why linus did the kernel. On the Web, LAMP is the standard for most web apps. Are there any kenyans contributing to any of these software/foundations in code, patches, updates or financially? Developers must be making money obviously, so what about the obligations of using free-code?
Rgds.
---------------------------------------
** Before this thread goes crazy and in the wrong direction, I'd like to make it clear to all those onlist who are not developers but earn an income on freedom/open/proprietary software to ignore this thread completely as its mostly about coders/developers and so there will be some un-necessary or heated exchanges. These are our views as a bunch of crazies, and do not represent any authority, accuracy whatsover. **
----------------------------------------
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lmao! Ati beyond help? :-)))) Unfortunately am just a speck of tiny dust in the whole spectrum of things. If I was a CEO nor any player in the worldwide software industry. If I was, there would be major changes in the way things are done. Please read my thread on the Human DNA, I'd open the DNA/Source code if you produced guaranteed the production of the Super Human. :-) Rgds. On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com>wrote:
Aki,
Since you are beyond help (on a lighter note)
And I was thinking that this thread was all about interesting kernel stuff. Silly me. Kumbe Aki you were just trying to get everyone interested so that you can try to sway the discussion and show them the demerits of opensource, Or at what point did you change your mind? I have to congratulate you for so far almost making every linux user and admin feel small without knowing your intentions. However, I can now state clearly that your thread is more and more about undisputed evidence on why Linus, Linux, is terrible. If this is wrong, please correct me now so that we can know where this thread is heading. I will gladly continue keeping quiet if interesting stuff keeps coming up. However, ukiendelea kuonea watu wetu lazima watajitetea :-) Please keep this thread interesting. On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 9:59 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
lmao! Ati beyond help? :-))))
Unfortunately am just a speck of tiny dust in the whole spectrum of things. If I was a CEO nor any player in the worldwide software industry. If I was, there would be major changes in the way things are done. Please read my thread on the Human DNA, I'd open the DNA/Source code if you produced guaranteed the production of the Super Human. :-)
Rgds. On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com>wrote:
Aki,
Since you are beyond help (on a lighter note)
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@Frankline. Good morning Kenya. :-) I must say Open platforms have the best self denialists on this planet. You won't engage me on kernel level, you won't engage me on linux OS app dev level, you won't engage me on why you don't contribute a single line of patches, updates on your favourite OS, you won't enageg me why you do not make financial donations to free-code when you are making millions from it, you won't engage me why Kenya does not have an active linux OS developers/coders community, you wont engage me ón on anything to do with linux OS code. In the last 5 years, you've done ZERO for a code system you all claim to follow. Defeat my views that for you all Linux developers/coders is just a free software that you use just because it exists to further your personal gains. Why? Come on, engage me on these issues and we can get down to specifics. In the meantime, sorry my views stand. Mr Propreitary. Rgds. :-) On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:02 AM, Frankline Chitwa <frank.chitwa@gmail.com>wrote:
And I was thinking that this thread was all about interesting kernel stuff. Silly me. Kumbe Aki you were just trying to get everyone interested so that you can try to sway the discussion and show them the demerits of opensource, Or at what point did you change your mind? I have to congratulate you for so far almost making every linux user and admin feel small without knowing your intentions. However, I can now state clearly that your thread is more and more about undisputed evidence on why Linus, Linux, is terrible. If this is wrong, please correct me now so that we can know where this thread is heading.
I will gladly continue keeping quiet if interesting stuff keeps coming up. However, ukiendelea kuonea watu wetu lazima watajitetea :-)
Please keep this thread interesting.
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No am not here only to engage you. I joined this list to learn stuff. If stuff comes up that I want to learn, I keep quiet and let those with knowledge speak. However, if you know everything and are willing to speak, please use discretion and not attack. Otherwise nobody will listen to you. On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 8:10 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Frankline. Good morning Kenya. :-)
I must say Open platforms have the best self denialists on this planet.
You won't engage me on kernel level, you won't engage me on linux OS app dev level, you won't engage me on why you don't contribute a single line of patches, updates on your favourite OS, you won't enageg me why you do not make financial donations to free-code when you are making millions from it, you won't engage me why Kenya does not have an active linux OS developers/coders community, you wont engage me ón on anything to do with linux OS code.
In the last 5 years, you've done ZERO for a code system you all claim to follow. Defeat my views that for you all Linux developers/coders is just a free software that you use just because it exists to further your personal gains.
Why? Come on, engage me on these issues and we can get down to specifics. In the meantime, sorry my views stand.
Mr Propreitary.
Rgds. :-)
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:02 AM, Frankline Chitwa <frank.chitwa@gmail.com>wrote:
And I was thinking that this thread was all about interesting kernel stuff. Silly me. Kumbe Aki you were just trying to get everyone interested so that you can try to sway the discussion and show them the demerits of opensource, Or at what point did you change your mind? I have to congratulate you for so far almost making every linux user and admin feel small without knowing your intentions. However, I can now state clearly that your thread is more and more about undisputed evidence on why Linus, Linux, is terrible. If this is wrong, please correct me now so that we can know where this thread is heading.
I will gladly continue keeping quiet if interesting stuff keeps coming up. However, ukiendelea kuonea watu wetu lazima watajitetea :-)
Please keep this thread interesting.
Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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@Frankline, I meant engage in discussion. You should read the first 3 posts I did on this thread before we descended into more deeper issues. :-) @Ashok, so far you've stayed away from providing any useful discussion towards this thread. I'm not sure on you, whether you are just a user looking for free-code and in a for a free-ride as many others or actually a commited person on your open source stuff. It's difficult to tell from your posts. Rgds.
Aki, how has this moved from "Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to it?" to a discussion of Kenya's FOSS developers? questions asked on lists imply one has googled and no answers were forthcoming. all the things you're insistent on having discussed here have already been raised over the years, are littered over the net and there's nothing new that can be said. the wars you are so keen on waging are not productive and i understand why members are quiet. you're increasingly arguing for argument's sake and never know when to back down. On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 10:34, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Frankline, I meant engage in discussion. You should read the first 3 posts I did on this thread before we descended into more deeper issues. :-)
@Ashok, so far you've stayed away from providing any useful discussion towards this thread. I'm not sure on you, whether you are just a user looking for free-code and in a for a free-ride as many others or actually a commited person on your open source stuff. It's difficult to tell from your posts.
Rgds.
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-- for me, it is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring /carl sagan
@Amanya, thnks for input. It has everything to do with why he wrote the kernel in the first place and why kenya's FOSS developers on Linux OS do not exist to the level of the fundamentals of free-code use. No one can say they like Linux OS when they don't even promote it code wise, are not commited members of code groups or even do anything beyond what an end user does i.e look for cheap/free software for a function. The statics shows it so clearly that coders are not interested any free-code open platforms unless they make money from them. But since you are a Linux OS coder, maybe you hold all the answers. Please, the discussion is yours. Rgds. :-) On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:21 AM, amanya <whynnot@gmail.com> wrote:
Aki, how has this moved from "Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to it?" to a discussion of Kenya's FOSS developers? questions asked on lists imply one has googled and no answers were forthcoming. all the things you're insistent on having discussed here have already been raised over the years, are littered over the net and there's nothing new that can be said.
Ok, no further inputs on the thread which probably means no one's interested at such a level. Ok, one question for you linus based coders. How come none of you have a focus group that deals with who are commiters to code, while other try and create markets or ideas for your work? What is the reason that you are so defragmented into soloists? Do you not see the need to have collective efforts to try and achieve newer levels or either commerce or even code? For me, this is the primary reason for a formation of a C# group/list. I'm still pretty curious to know about linus, stallman, gnu, minix and have now moved my research to the internet. If I can find that *one sentence*that will give me the motivation to continue typing code when i have those blank days, then I must find it because it has to make sense to me. I enjoyed reading about Minix today and even saw it running well, saw that people are very commited to a lot of code projects out there so what drives them. I looked at the online code at writing a hardware driver, and was surprised that I could actually read the code quite well, whether C or C++. Now my search goes on the Unics adam/eve tree and the descendents. Why Unix-like is the word used after the 2nd/3rd generation. I'm not impressed at all with the reverse engineering aspects of things that have taken place in the software industry over many years whether proprietary or open or why such is even necessary because this drags progress. But all this is also not limited to just one industry, where ever humans are to be found, this problem exists. But I also know we are at the bottom of the coder chain, so whatever is done out there is what we have to work with, from code point of view. Where will it stop, I've no idea. I'm sure it gets pretty complicated from now onwards.. Rgds. :-)
YAWN...! Regards, Evans Ikua On 30 Nov 2011 21:23, "aki" <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: Ok, no further inputs on the thread which probably means no one's interested at such a level. Ok, one question for you linus based coders. How come none of you have a focus group that deals with who are commiters to code, while other try and create markets or ideas for your work? What is the reason that you are so defragmented into soloists? Do you not see the need to have collective efforts to try and achieve newer levels or either commerce or even code? For me, this is the primary reason for a formation of a C# group/list. I'm still pretty curious to know about linus, stallman, gnu, minix and have now moved my research to the internet. If I can find that *one sentence*that will give me the motivation to continue typing code when i have those blank days, then I must find it because it has to make sense to me. I enjoyed reading about Minix today and even saw it running well, saw that people are very commited to a lot of code projects out there so what drives them. I looked at the online code at writing a hardware driver, and was surprised that I could actually read the code quite well, whether C or C++. Now my search goes on the Unics adam/eve tree and the descendents. Why Unix-like is the word used after the 2nd/3rd generation. I'm not impressed at all with the reverse engineering aspects of things that have taken place in the software industry over many years whether proprietary or open or why such is even necessary because this drags progress. But all this is also not limited to just one industry, where ever humans are to be found, this problem exists. But I also know we are at the bottom of the coder chain, so whatever is done out there is what we have to work with, from code point of view. Where will it stop, I've no idea. I'm sure it gets pretty complicated from now onwards.. Rgds. :-) _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Lol . Evans !! Naughty boy !! One doesnt yawn in One Sent from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 02:41:23 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to it? _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Hello @Evans, actually the yawn has been on my side since I began this thread due to the lack of proper engagement of discussion. :-) . I know you are not at code level, so will diffuse this right here but as an active Linux Association in Kenya, do active member coders/developers know why they don't involve themselves at the fundamental layer of the free-code to improve on e.g. bugs or updates in the Linux OS. Case example: Many versions did not take the USB modems initially, did any get involved and wrote code to patch the kernel rather than wait for an update from some external knowledgebase. Rgds.
Hello @Kibui, its a good idea to try and irritate someone but at least for once do try and provide the technical inputs to further discussion. If you think this thread is boring, imagine how bored I'm with the users of free-code in for a free ride who are not coders but copy pasters, a new form of reverse engineering in the modern era. This is why I'd rather be in communication with like minds as Steve Obbayi, Amanya, Ken Kasina, Frankline, Chiteri, TheMburu, TechList Kenya to name a few. Also, to prove to you that you are very right in finding this thread boring, that skunkslist is anti-progressive for coders and that code is not yet a kenyan thing, look at my second weekly question on C#. It is dead, not a single response, not even on why proper qeuries must be done to avoid sql injections. Some thots. :-)
OK, I must answer you just in the spirit of freedom of thought. What I see is that this discussion has been had before, with similar intonations from you and others on your side of the divide. To suggest that Kenyan developers do not contribute any code to the Open Source community is to mislead people. I dont know what research you are basing your statements on. There is a good number of Kenyan developers who are doing amazing stuff in the global OS community that I know of. There are probably tens or hundreds more whom we dont know, but they are doing it still. It would be good to know (and I have asked this question before), of the leading proprietary systems in the world, how many Kenyan Developers have participated in their development? What is it that the local proprietary developers can stand up and say they have done to contribute to some leading system development wise? I am not suggesting that there isnt, but it would be good to know. To me, the arguments that you provide look like mere rhetoric, trying to lead the thought processes of unsuspecting minds. Have a good day. On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:37 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello @Evans, actually the yawn has been on my side since I began this thread due to the lack of proper engagement of discussion. :-) . I know you are not at code level, so will diffuse this right here but as an active Linux Association in Kenya, do active member coders/developers know why they don't involve themselves at the fundamental layer of the free-code to improve on e.g. bugs or updates in the Linux OS. Case example: Many versions did not take the USB modems initially, did any get involved and wrote code to patch the kernel rather than wait for an update from some external knowledgebase.
Rgds.
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@Evans, your response is good. If you are comfortable with the quesion I asked regarding the low level kernel developers then I believe you so I can close this thread. Am I representing propreitary coding, yes as my choice but not in the case of this thread. Am I marketing that your side is bad, not at all. Am I saying that proprietary coders have done a better job globally, yes because entirely all innovation is from them on whatever layers, thus my thoughts on forming a local focus group/list which will become a competitor to yours interms of it being a proprietary code group/list. My view is that we need this competition on coders level to up the levels of what we should be trying to achieve. And to clarify to all the unsuspecting minds, no am not interested in putting down any wrong impressions here. It is up to you to mentally challenge yourself. My opinion is no way etched in stone. @Ashok, lol! my emails read like a brain-dumps, that's amazing. :-) Am still where I started from, but have moved my research to the internet. Maybe I'll write to the adminstrator of Minix to find out what motivation it takes them to keep such things going. Locally am done asking. **-- Am now in self imposed exile from the KICT scene --Period! Let's talk everything else but ICT-- **
Am I saying that proprietary coders have done a better job globally, yes because entirely all innovation is from them on whatever layers, Please provide some evidence on this, citing examples. Dont forget to mention the Kenya names here while you are it. On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:04 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Evans, your response is good. If you are comfortable with the quesion I asked regarding the low level kernel developers then I believe you so I can close this thread. Am I representing propreitary coding, yes as my choice but not in the case of this thread. Am I marketing that your side is bad, not at all. Am I saying that proprietary coders have done a better job globally, yes because entirely all innovation is from them on whatever layers, thus my thoughts on forming a local focus group/list which will become a competitor to yours interms of it being a proprietary code group/list. My view is that we need this competition on coders level to up the levels of what we should be trying to achieve. And to clarify to all the unsuspecting minds, no am not interested in putting down any wrong impressions here. It is up to you to mentally challenge yourself. My opinion is no way etched in stone.
@Ashok, lol! my emails read like a brain-dumps, that's amazing. :-)
Am still where I started from, but have moved my research to the internet. Maybe I'll write to the adminstrator of Minix to find out what motivation it takes them to keep such things going. Locally am done asking.
**-- Am now in self imposed exile from the KICT scene --Period! Let's talk everything else but ICT-- **
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On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Am I saying that proprietary coders have done a better job globally, yes because entirely all innovation is from them on whatever layers, Please provide some evidence on this, citing examples. Dont forget to mention the Kenya names here while you are it.
--
@Evans, the gene of the Unix-like kernels is all at Unics in 1969. This is what I know so far, and free-code was not around that time. For Kenya there is no one, not closed or open code. That is why the local C# and ASP.NETfocus group/list when formed some day will try and address. Rgds. :-) **-- Am now in self imposed exile from the KICT scene --Period! Let's talk everything else but ICT-- **
I cant see an answer to my question in your statement. What is the evidence that you have that shows that entirely all innovation is from Proprietary developers, and that that is correct for the Kenya scenario? On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:30 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Am I saying that proprietary coders have done a better job globally, yes because entirely all innovation is from them on whatever layers, Please provide some evidence on this, citing examples. Dont forget to mention the Kenya names here while you are it.
--
@Evans, the gene of the Unix-like kernels is all at Unics in 1969. This is what I know so far, and free-code was not around that time. For Kenya there is no one, not closed or open code. That is why the local C# and ASP.NETfocus group/list when formed some day will try and address.
Rgds. :-)
**-- Am now in self imposed exile from the KICT scene --Period! Let's talk everything else but ICT-- **
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@Evans, its actually an very interesting journey, i.e the code. 100% of the code that is in use today was developed by propreitary coders who got paid to write the programs for computer systems. The computer languages too, partly. If you look at all layers of the the OSi model, there is none that has been done by non-proprietary. In the context of Kenya, let us go by the layers then, all local code developers: Application Layer : Zero Network Layer : Zero Physical Layer : Zero The evidence that you seek is right in front on your computer.
I do not agree with you on that. Please educate me about BIND, TCPIP, Apache, Firefox, Linux etc and where all that fits in your statement. Then, are you now confirming that there are no Kenyan proprietary developers who have made any global impact? I don't know if its my English that's bad, or it's that we are not communicating. On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 2:10 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Evans, its actually an very interesting journey, i.e the code. 100% of the code that is in use today was developed by propreitary coders who got paid to write the programs for computer systems. The computer languages too, partly. If you look at all layers of the the OSi model, there is none that has been done by non-proprietary. In the context of Kenya, let us go by the layers then, all local code developers:
Application Layer : Zero Network Layer : Zero Physical Layer : Zero
The evidence that you seek is right in front on your computer.
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On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
I do not agree with you on that. Please educate me about BIND, TCPIP, Apache, Firefox, Linux etc and where all that fits in your statement. Then, are you now confirming that there are no Kenyan proprietary developers who have made any global impact? I don't know if its my English that's bad, or it's that we are not communicating.
Give me time to go deep into this, and will revert to you on all that you ask. Your question on whether any Kenyan proprietary developers have made a global impact? My view, they have done nothing at all. Infact it is bad to a point where if I had to deploy a website, I'd find it very difficult to find servers locally that provide hosting and one wonders they really do. And this is the primary reason for trying to put together a focus group that will have some goals in mind. But as you can see from the list, there has been no progress in creating one so far. :-) Evans, also keep this in mind so that you are aware. When the focus groups gets it act together, then its competition time. Our targets may clash with your group targets, but possbilby we need it for the sake of getting coders interested or for those coders finding more markets for themselves. **-- Am now in self imposed exile from the KICT scene --Period! Let's talk everything else but ICT-- **
Take your time Aki. I will be watching this thread for just that. We do not fear or hate competition. Everyone has a right to his opinion and his choice of technology. I have no problem whatsoever with your choices. We are also consolidating our act and we are looking for worthy competition. On the other hand, my presumption is that local Open Source Developers are actually doing a great job globally, and that the proprietary developers can not make a similar claim. I may be wrong, but I need proof to the contrary. I think your earlier comments came out looking like you were setting up the two divides for a pissing contest. On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 2:30 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
I do not agree with you on that. Please educate me about BIND, TCPIP, Apache, Firefox, Linux etc and where all that fits in your statement. Then, are you now confirming that there are no Kenyan proprietary developers who have made any global impact? I don't know if its my English that's bad, or it's that we are not communicating.
Give me time to go deep into this, and will revert to you on all that you ask. Your question on whether any Kenyan proprietary developers have made a global impact? My view, they have done nothing at all. Infact it is bad to a point where if I had to deploy a website, I'd find it very difficult to find servers locally that provide hosting and one wonders they really do. And this is the primary reason for trying to put together a focus group that will have some goals in mind. But as you can see from the list, there has been no progress in creating one so far. :-)
Evans, also keep this in mind so that you are aware. When the focus groups gets it act together, then its competition time. Our targets may clash with your group targets, but possbilby we need it for the sake of getting coders interested or for those coders finding more markets for themselves.
**-- Am now in self imposed exile from the KICT scene --Period! Let's talk everything else but ICT-- **
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Inline below: On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Take your time Aki. I will be watching this thread for just that. We do not fear or hate competition. Everyone has a right to his opinion and his choice of technology. I have no problem whatsoever with your choices. We are also consolidating our act and we are looking for worthy competition.
Nice to hear this am very glad to hear that FOSS is also getting its core act on the right direction. Our proprietary group focus, still un-born, will have targets on the desktop and web levels. I don't think we have the level of people to write anything at the network or hardware layers, but who knows--things can change. The winner at the end is not only the coder but also the members of the public. :-)
On the other hand, my presumption is that local Open Source Developers are actually doing a great job globally, and that the proprietary developers can not make a similar claim. I may be wrong, but I need proof to the contrary. I think your earlier comments came out looking like you were setting up the two divides for a pissing contest.
I disagree with you that Open Source are doing a great job in the same way that I fully agree proprietary coders in kenya are doing nothing. As a hobbyist coder I'm not into a marketing war with anyone, we will get to the marketing wars once we have a strong proprietary coders group. If you read my top 3 comments on this thread, I wrote the reasons I was putting up the thread, and I found it very interesting to have discovered what I've so far i.e what drove coders to levels with what motivations. Has this thread provided me the motivation or inspiration? A few did and I was looking for something deeper from people who enjoy working at deeper level of code but unfortunately I can only find on the web. The road has just started... Some thots. :-)
Hi Aki, Again you make me return to this thread, sorry but you are too naive and think what u know as the think and dedicate to defend it as such, this is as a result of over confidence in yourself, your skill, strengths, opinions and what you can achieve. At the network layer the most prominent routing protocol is OSPF developed by the open source community employing the other most prominent algorithgm known as Dijkstra's algorithm. which has been ported to proprietary softwares. Like Ikua said there local guys making contributions to open source and some are in the IETF and NOT necessary for you to know them in the context you asked!!! On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 3:16 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Inline below:
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Take your time Aki. I will be watching this thread for just that. We do not fear or hate competition. Everyone has a right to his opinion and his choice of technology. I have no problem whatsoever with your choices. We are also consolidating our act and we are looking for worthy competition.
Nice to hear this am very glad to hear that FOSS is also getting its core act on the right direction. Our proprietary group focus, still un-born, will have targets on the desktop and web levels. I don't think we have the level of people to write anything at the network or hardware layers, but who knows--things can change. The winner at the end is not only the coder but also the members of the public. :-)
On the other hand, my presumption is that local Open Source Developers are actually doing a great job globally, and that the proprietary developers can not make a similar claim. I may be wrong, but I need proof to the contrary. I think your earlier comments came out looking like you were setting up the two divides for a pissing contest.
I disagree with you that Open Source are doing a great job in the same way that I fully agree proprietary coders in kenya are doing nothing. As a hobbyist coder I'm not into a marketing war with anyone, we will get to the marketing wars once we have a strong proprietary coders group. If you read my top 3 comments on this thread, I wrote the reasons I was putting up the thread, and I found it very interesting to have discovered what I've so far i.e what drove coders to levels with what motivations. Has this thread provided me the motivation or inspiration? A few did and I was looking for something deeper from people who enjoy working at deeper level of code but unfortunately I can only find on the web.
The road has just started...
Some thots. :-)
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-- Conservatism is the adherence to the old tried against the new untried.
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 3:26 PM, TheMburu George <themburu@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Aki,
Again you make me return to this thread, sorry but you are too naive and think what u know as the think and dedicate to defend it as such, this is as a result of over confidence in yourself, your skill, strengths, opinions and what you can achieve. At the network layer the most prominent routing protocol is OSPF developed by the open source community employing the other most prominent algorithgm known as Dijkstra's algorithm. which has been ported to proprietary softwares.
Like Ikua said there local guys making contributions to open source and some are in the IETF and NOT necessary for you to know them in the context you asked!!!
Hello @TheMburu, I wrote on the network layer as a code layer not being developed in ke. What did I miss? Rgds.
@Evans, the first of response to your queries : As researched from the web: *The Apache Web Server : * **** - Founder Tim Berners Lee, while working at the physics dept CERN, switzerland ( 1989 ). The Web Server was called CERN, only worked on Unix OS called NextStep and at CERN itself. In 1991, met Richard Stallman of FSF at presentation in CERN, who told him the prospects of volunteers could develop his work further.... The WebServer and concept not born from Open Source or Freedom software. My views, and corrections welcome. Rgds.
This debate (as usual) has degenerated into hard line positions where each side believes the other side is useless. Further debate will be quite pointless as positions are entrenched and no one is interested in acknowledging the other's views. All I can say it is patently absurd for either side (proprietary oropen source) to claim sole responsibility for innovation and progress in the sector. If people stepped back from hard line positions this would be apparent.
@Rad, you finally appeared. Any progress on the C# developers list? It would help to know when the group/list can get going. :-) If you read above, I've outlined to Evans what the C# and ASP.NET group will try to do i.e Desktop and Web. I'm not happy that proprietary coders just code for corporations etc, we need a Kenyan propreitary group to be more involved at general public use level so that we are able to achieve much more. Some thots. Rgds.
Hi @TheMburu, I found you comment on my being navie and over confident a bit over the top, so I ran cross checks on your claim that Open Source developed OSPF. Turns out that it is the the usual story of Open Source, they have no original concepts or designs or research. In fact the entire basis of Open Source is based on work done in Universities or Inventors or Propreitary companies/organizations who release the concept or code for no financial gain. And Open Source seems to think it can claim these technologly advancements just by the fact that the original inventors/professors release the code for free public use. What I fail to understand is that when say for example Richard Stallman go to a place like CERN and give their views, how much will a scientist working on Nuclear fusion etc really make public their research findings public? The same place where the concept of internet was born, is the same place that is very propreitary in its operations. At network layer, you have a few well known vendors who created say Cisco and Juniper with proprietary mechanims that made their systems unique and popular. Juniper is based on some parts on FreeBSD, but this means nothing. FreeBSD cannot claim to have given birth to Juniper. It is the propreitary sectors that takes the concepts which have been made public or under trademarks that have been made public and does something unique with them, and this is where propreitary code developers shine. But now Open Source has a new enemy. Startups and Venture Funding, and the gains that Open Source made are being eroded slowly as more and more innovative minds are not releasing to free public use. They are going business. Take the example of Face Book. Proprietary and very successful. You may want to correct me again, and I'll still keep digging deeper for further knowledge. :-) Rgds.
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 9:22 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, no further inputs on the thread which probably means no one's interested at such a level. Ok, one question for you linus based coders. How come none of you have a focus group that deals with who are commiters to code, while other try and create markets or ideas for your work? What is the reason that you are so defragmented into soloists? Do you not see the need to have collective efforts to try and achieve newer levels or either commerce or even code? For me, this is the primary reason for a formation of a C# group/list.
I'm still pretty curious to know about linus, stallman, gnu, minix and have now moved my research to the internet. If I can find that *one sentence* that will give me the motivation to continue typing code when i have those blank days, then I must find it because it has to make sense to me. I enjoyed reading about Minix today and even saw it running well, saw that people are very commited to a lot of code projects out there so what drives them. I looked at the online code at writing a hardware driver, and was surprised that I could actually read the code quite well, whether C or C++.
Now my search goes on the Unics adam/eve tree and the descendents. Why Unix-like is the word used after the 2nd/3rd generation. I'm not impressed at all with the reverse engineering aspects of things that have taken place in the software industry over many years whether proprietary or open or why such is even necessary because this drags progress. But all this is also not limited to just one industry, where ever humans are to be found, this problem exists. But I also know we are at the bottom of the coder chain, so whatever is done out there is what we have to work with, from code point of view.
i actually made an attempt to read that but could not comprehend. your long emails read like braindumps / thought-streams transported into email . perhaps, if you are more coherent and concise, you may get some engagement.
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 6:44 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok, though am not Mr Microsoft or Mr Mac but am Mr Proprietary in the context of the mails, you have asked a very good question. Why if Windows holds e.g. 50% of the market share are desktop apps not being created that fast and diverse? I can tell you that when we have a strong C# and ASP.NETfocus group/list, these are things that need to be answered and looked into. This is a large coder/developer market share to not only create but also financially benefit from and if members of the group will earn from their coding/developing, that is even better.
if there is a mailing list give me the number of applications developed for the last five years. right now.
Now @Ashok, for my turn to ask you a good question since you have no idea why linus did the kernel. On the Web, LAMP is the standard for most web apps. Are there any kenyans contributing to any of these software/foundations in code, patches, updates or financially? Developers must be making money obviously, so what about the obligations of using free-code?
your argument may be a bit fallacious, its banking on various assumptions -- 1- every developer in kenya and beyond is a member of this mailing list 2- every mailing list member is actually reading every mail posted to the list 3- there is a mysterious god-like person going around and collecting statistics on individual code contributions graded geographically for the last 5 years i could asset that the world is square, if no one responds to that assertion on skunkworks -- declare that the world is indeed square.
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 4:29 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
- How many Linux Applications have been written from kenya for the same plaftorm with the last 5 years?
- How many Kenyan coders/developers have maintained a commited relationship with Ubuntu or their linux choice and contributed patches, updates or financial support?
god knows... and god certainly isnt talking to me. what i do know is smart people write cross platform applications nowadays either based on a web-browser or one of the many cross-platform desktop app options. how about you tell me how many windows applications were written in the last 5 years for the same parameters above ?
Here is a story of the strange birth of UNIX - http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-... * *====================== Andrew Wafula Wapakala Web: www.wertsoft.com MSN: a_wafula@hotmail.com MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/awafula Blog: http://thewert.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================== If you have made mistakes...there is always another chance for you... you may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call 'failure' is not the falling down, but the staying down. - Mary Pickford "Great Minds Discuss Ideas; Average Minds Discuss Events; Small Minds Discuss People" On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 1:26 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Its amazing how its seems now looking at it differently. Being the genius he was, did he add more innovative features to the Linux kernel? For those who know both the Unix and Linux kernel well enough, please enlighten us more.
--
**--Have you done any code today?--**
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Thanks @Andrew, over the past few days I've gone to sites that present a lot of data. I'm actually putting all the players now into a timeline so that it is much easier to know the gene, how far it travelled, trouble in paradise, contributors etc. The more I research, the more I find asking myself : where did we miss out? Is it because there was no Bell Company in Kenya? And what if we had the chance, what would motivate us? Rgds. On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Andrew Wafula <awafula@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is a story of the strange birth of UNIX - http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-... * *
Another open source closed source argument ... Why can we just get along... Look, It doesn't matter, no one really cares about your bind, dns, php and c# All that matters is does your shit work ? I have seen techies feel hot juu they use linux or windows or macos... And get into loong arguments .... But at the end of the day clients don't give a rats ass How about we focus on solving day to day problems AMA - let's have a talkathon/codeathon/hackathon AKI vs Evans (I would love to meet Aki in person) On 12/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks @Andrew, over the past few days I've gone to sites that present a lot of data. I'm actually putting all the players now into a timeline so that it is much easier to know the gene, how far it travelled, trouble in paradise, contributors etc. The more I research, the more I find asking myself : where did we miss out? Is it because there was no Bell Company in Kenya? And what if we had the chance, what would motivate us?
Rgds.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Andrew Wafula <awafula@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is a story of the strange birth of UNIX - http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-... * *
-- Sent from my mobile device
@Augusta, ceasefire declared from my side. :-) Comment : All I wanted was to find the mental inspiration/motivation from kenyan coders who work at deep code levels, on things like the kernel. Would they accept that linus did not reverse engineer or actually did his own thing can only be known once at kernel level. To question the depth of this seems to have very many unnecessay issues attached to it. If any coder on this list has a low day and needs insipration, I can tell you that my research on Unix has now given me enough motivation to think and question on why we limit oursleves. Rgds.
Sorry correction, name spelled incorrectly, compiler error. My apology to you Agosta. Name now compiles correctly. :-) On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:30 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Augusta, ceasefire declared from my side. :-)
Comment : All I wanted was to find the mental inspiration/motivation from kenyan coders who work at deep code levels, on things like the kernel. Would they accept that linus did not reverse engineer or actually did his own thing can only be known once at kernel level. To question the depth of this seems to have very many unnecessay issues attached to it. If any coder on this list has a low day and needs insipration, I can tell you that my research on Unix has now given me enough motivation to think and question on why we limit oursleves.
Rgds.
-- **-- Am now in self imposed exile from the KICT scene --Period! Let's talk everything else but ICT-- **
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Agosta Liko <agostal@gmail.com> wrote:
...
(I would love to meet Aki in person)
In case you haven't figured it yet, he isn't human. He's a troll bot :)
@Joseph, actually I kind of fell sorry for you open code guys. Its a tough market out there with all the proprietary vendors and coders, and i hope I never have to sell software to make a living because we will be down this road once again. I think hardware is the best, all propreitary in many ways, the client decides what they want, buy it and everyone is happy. Software is another story altogether, more like who is better and why. It's like saying who is a better consultant, means you have to put down the other person to make your sales pitch. I don't know how software vendors do it in the real markets, but it must be really tough unless the clients know what they are looking for. some thots from the bot :-) Rgds. On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:34 AM, Joseph Wayodi <jwayodi@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Agosta Liko <agostal@gmail.com> wrote:
...
(I would love to meet Aki in person)
In case you haven't figured it yet, he isn't human. He's a troll bot :) _______________________________________________
Agosta, I have to disagree with you on some issues and the example with these two lines mentioned below is exactly where the problem is with Kenya ICT. ... Look, It doesn't matter, no one really cares about your bind, dns, php and c#... .... But at the end of the day clients don't give a rats ass.... Just coz your clients are ignorant, excuse me, but as a responsible ICT contractor its your moral duty to give the client the best that you have whether they know it or not. This is where the whole security mess that's evident from so many Kenyan websites and software system all together. We have devs... oops sorry I mean business men opportunists who think its fare game going to google and downloading open source software and dishing it out to clients to make a quick buck. This is just a get rich quick scheme and nothing more. Our devs dont understand how the internals of the open source code that they sell to clients really works... well... as long as it "works" everybody's happy. Unfortunately it has to take a hacker to reveal the true mess. It is unacceptable to has site like KNEC being run as they are and the likes if Nairobi Uni, Kenyatta Uni. This is a shame and its appalling how our IT gurus are content with that. Its time devs here realized just because software seems to work it does not mean its safe and secure both on resources and from intrusion. Why cant we use criticism on this list to have an idea where our weaknesses are and use that to develop ourselves. ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Agosta Liko" <agostal@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 8:15:10 AM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to | it? | | Another open source closed source argument ... | | Why can we just get along... Look, It doesn't matter, no one really | cares about your bind, dns, php and c# | | All that matters is does your shit work ? | | I have seen techies feel hot juu they use linux or windows or | macos... | And get into loong arguments .... But at the end of the day clients | don't give a rats ass | | How about we focus on solving day to day problems | | AMA - let's have a talkathon/codeathon/hackathon | | AKI vs Evans | | (I would love to meet Aki in person) | | On 12/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: | > Thanks @Andrew, over the past few days I've gone to sites that | > present a | > lot of data. I'm actually putting all the players now into a | > timeline so | > that it is much easier to know the gene, how far it travelled, | > trouble in | > paradise, contributors etc. The more I research, the more I find | > asking | > myself : where did we miss out? Is it because there was no Bell | > Company in | > Kenya? And what if we had the chance, what would motivate us? | > | > Rgds. | > | > On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Andrew Wafula <awafula@gmail.com> | > wrote: | > | >> Here is a story of the strange birth of UNIX - | >> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-... | >> * | >> * | >> | > | | -- | Sent from my mobile device | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | ------------ | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | ------------ | | Skunkworks Rules | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | ------------ | Other services @ http://my.co.ke |
@Steve I think you are taking what Liko said out of context. What he is saying (and I agree 100%) is it does not matter if you do your solutions in PHP, C#, Assembly, C++ etc -- all that matters is whatever toolset you choose, you know how to use it well. Your client does not care whether your shiny new system uses Java or .NET or Perl or Python or SQL server or oracle or open soruce or closed source -- as long as it works, and works well. Ergo the value these debates which toolset is better than the other have limited value really On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
Agosta, I have to disagree with you on some issues and the example with these two lines mentioned below is exactly where the problem is with Kenya ICT.
... Look, It doesn't matter, no one really cares about your bind, dns, php and c#...
.... But at the end of the day clients don't give a rats ass....
Just coz your clients are ignorant, excuse me, but as a responsible ICT contractor its your moral duty to give the client the best that you have whether they know it or not.
This is where the whole security mess that's evident from so many Kenyan websites and software system all together. We have devs... oops sorry I mean business men opportunists who think its fare game going to google and downloading open source software and dishing it out to clients to make a quick buck. This is just a get rich quick scheme and nothing more.
Our devs dont understand how the internals of the open source code that they sell to clients really works... well... as long as it "works" everybody's happy. Unfortunately it has to take a hacker to reveal the true mess. It is unacceptable to has site like KNEC being run as they are and the likes if Nairobi Uni, Kenyatta Uni. This is a shame and its appalling how our IT gurus are content with that.
Its time devs here realized just because software seems to work it does not mean its safe and secure both on resources and from intrusion. Why cant we use criticism on this list to have an idea where our weaknesses are and use that to develop ourselves.
----- Original Message ----- | From: "Agosta Liko" <agostal@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 8:15:10 AM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to | it? | | Another open source closed source argument ... | | Why can we just get along... Look, It doesn't matter, no one really | cares about your bind, dns, php and c# | | All that matters is does your shit work ? | | I have seen techies feel hot juu they use linux or windows or | macos... | And get into loong arguments .... But at the end of the day clients | don't give a rats ass | | How about we focus on solving day to day problems | | AMA - let's have a talkathon/codeathon/hackathon | | AKI vs Evans | | (I would love to meet Aki in person) | | On 12/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: | > Thanks @Andrew, over the past few days I've gone to sites that | > present a | > lot of data. I'm actually putting all the players now into a | > timeline so | > that it is much easier to know the gene, how far it travelled, | > trouble in | > paradise, contributors etc. The more I research, the more I find | > asking | > myself : where did we miss out? Is it because there was no Bell | > Company in | > Kenya? And what if we had the chance, what would motivate us? | > | > Rgds. | > | > On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Andrew Wafula <awafula@gmail.com> | > wrote: | > | >> Here is a story of the strange birth of UNIX - | >> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-... | >> * | >> * | >> | > | | -- | Sent from my mobile device | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | ------------ | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | ------------ | | Skunkworks Rules | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | ------------ | Other services @ http://my.co.ke | _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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@Rad, Personally I have no issues with the tools or languages, its about the attitude that the local devs have when going about their business. Engineers (Registered Professional Engineers) are required by law the world over to maintain standard practices and to produce the same, with ethics high on the priority list. It should be that because devs so readily call themselves engineers should at least have the same values as required of Registered Engineers. With that in mind chances are the large number of issues raised on this forum to do with vulnerable websites is just an indicator of the quality of a lot software that is produced locally. I don't have facts so don't quote me on this. ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Rad!" <conradakunga@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 11:12:02 AM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to | it? | | @Steve I think you are taking what Liko said out of context. | | What he is saying (and I agree 100%) is it does not matter if you do | your solutions in PHP, C#, Assembly, C++ etc -- all that matters is | whatever toolset you choose, you know how to use it well. | | Your client does not care whether your shiny new system uses Java or | ..NET or Perl or Python or SQL server or oracle or open soruce or | closed source -- as long as it works, and works well. | | Ergo the value these debates which toolset is better than the other | have limited value really | | On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> | wrote: | > Agosta, I have to disagree with you on some issues and the example | > with these two lines mentioned below is exactly where the problem | > is with Kenya ICT. | > | > ... Look, It doesn't matter, no one really cares about your bind, | > dns, php and c#... | > | > .... But at the end of the day clients don't give a rats ass.... | > | > Just coz your clients are ignorant, excuse me, but as a responsible | > ICT contractor its your moral duty to give the client the best | > that you have whether they know it or not. | > | > This is where the whole security mess that's evident from so many | > Kenyan websites and software system all together. We have devs... | > oops sorry | > I mean business men opportunists who think its fare game going to | > google and downloading open source software and dishing it out to | > clients to make a quick buck. This is just a get rich quick scheme | > and nothing more. | > | > Our devs dont understand how the internals of the open source code | > that they sell to clients really works... well... as long as it | > "works" everybody's happy. Unfortunately it has to take a hacker | > to reveal the true mess. It is unacceptable to has site like KNEC | > being run as they are and the likes if Nairobi Uni, Kenyatta Uni. | > This is a shame and its appalling how our IT gurus are content | > with that. | > | > Its time devs here realized just because software seems to work it | > does not mean its safe and secure both on resources and from | > intrusion. Why cant we use criticism on this list to have an idea | > where our weaknesses are and use that to develop ourselves. | > | > | > | > | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > | From: "Agosta Liko" <agostal@gmail.com> | > | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | > | Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 8:15:10 AM | > | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the | > | Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to | > | it? | > | | > | Another open source closed source argument ... | > | | > | Why can we just get along... Look, It doesn't matter, no one | > | really | > | cares about your bind, dns, php and c# | > | | > | All that matters is does your shit work ? | > | | > | I have seen techies feel hot juu they use linux or windows or | > | macos... | > | And get into loong arguments .... But at the end of the day | > | clients | > | don't give a rats ass | > | | > | How about we focus on solving day to day problems | > | | > | AMA - let's have a talkathon/codeathon/hackathon | > | | > | AKI vs Evans | > | | > | (I would love to meet Aki in person) | > | | > | On 12/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: | > | > Thanks @Andrew, over the past few days I've gone to sites that | > | > present a | > | > lot of data. I'm actually putting all the players now into a | > | > timeline so | > | > that it is much easier to know the gene, how far it travelled, | > | > trouble in | > | > paradise, contributors etc. The more I research, the more I | > | > find | > | > asking | > | > myself : where did we miss out? Is it because there was no Bell | > | > Company in | > | > Kenya? And what if we had the chance, what would motivate us? | > | > | > | > Rgds. | > | > | > | > On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Andrew Wafula | > | > <awafula@gmail.com> | > | > wrote: | > | > | > | >> Here is a story of the strange birth of UNIX - | > | >> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-... | > | >> * | > | >> * | > | >> | > | > | > | | > | -- | > | Sent from my mobile device | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Skunkworks mailing list | > | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | > | ------------ | > | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | > | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | > | ------------ | > | | > | Skunkworks Rules | > | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | > | ------------ | > | Other services @ http://my.co.ke | > | | > _______________________________________________ | > Skunkworks mailing list | > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | > ------------ | > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | > ------------ | > | > Skunkworks Rules | > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | > ------------ | > Other services @ http://my.co.ke | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | ------------ | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | ------------ | | Skunkworks Rules | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | ------------ | Other services @ http://my.co.ke |
The trouble with software development is it is both a science and an art. You can put in place standards on the engineering bits but the art side is the wild wild west and cannot be defined. On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
@Rad, Personally I have no issues with the tools or languages, its about the attitude that the local devs have when going about their business. Engineers (Registered Professional Engineers) are required by law the world over to maintain standard practices and to produce the same, with ethics high on the priority list. It should be that because devs so readily call themselves engineers should at least have the same values as required of Registered Engineers. With that in mind chances are the large number of issues raised on this forum to do with vulnerable websites is just an indicator of the quality of a lot software that is produced locally. I don't have facts so don't quote me on this.
----- Original Message ----- | From: "Rad!" <conradakunga@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 11:12:02 AM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to | it? | | @Steve I think you are taking what Liko said out of context. | | What he is saying (and I agree 100%) is it does not matter if you do | your solutions in PHP, C#, Assembly, C++ etc -- all that matters is | whatever toolset you choose, you know how to use it well. | | Your client does not care whether your shiny new system uses Java or | ..NET or Perl or Python or SQL server or oracle or open soruce or | closed source -- as long as it works, and works well. | | Ergo the value these debates which toolset is better than the other | have limited value really | | On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> | wrote: | > Agosta, I have to disagree with you on some issues and the example | > with these two lines mentioned below is exactly where the problem | > is with Kenya ICT. | > | > ... Look, It doesn't matter, no one really cares about your bind, | > dns, php and c#... | > | > .... But at the end of the day clients don't give a rats ass.... | > | > Just coz your clients are ignorant, excuse me, but as a responsible | > ICT contractor its your moral duty to give the client the best | > that you have whether they know it or not. | > | > This is where the whole security mess that's evident from so many | > Kenyan websites and software system all together. We have devs... | > oops sorry | > I mean business men opportunists who think its fare game going to | > google and downloading open source software and dishing it out to | > clients to make a quick buck. This is just a get rich quick scheme | > and nothing more. | > | > Our devs dont understand how the internals of the open source code | > that they sell to clients really works... well... as long as it | > "works" everybody's happy. Unfortunately it has to take a hacker | > to reveal the true mess. It is unacceptable to has site like KNEC | > being run as they are and the likes if Nairobi Uni, Kenyatta Uni. | > This is a shame and its appalling how our IT gurus are content | > with that. | > | > Its time devs here realized just because software seems to work it | > does not mean its safe and secure both on resources and from | > intrusion. Why cant we use criticism on this list to have an idea | > where our weaknesses are and use that to develop ourselves. | > | > | > | > | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > | From: "Agosta Liko" <agostal@gmail.com> | > | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | > | Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 8:15:10 AM | > | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the | > | Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to | > | it? | > | | > | Another open source closed source argument ... | > | | > | Why can we just get along... Look, It doesn't matter, no one | > | really | > | cares about your bind, dns, php and c# | > | | > | All that matters is does your shit work ? | > | | > | I have seen techies feel hot juu they use linux or windows or | > | macos... | > | And get into loong arguments .... But at the end of the day | > | clients | > | don't give a rats ass | > | | > | How about we focus on solving day to day problems | > | | > | AMA - let's have a talkathon/codeathon/hackathon | > | | > | AKI vs Evans | > | | > | (I would love to meet Aki in person) | > | | > | On 12/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: | > | > Thanks @Andrew, over the past few days I've gone to sites that | > | > present a | > | > lot of data. I'm actually putting all the players now into a | > | > timeline so | > | > that it is much easier to know the gene, how far it travelled, | > | > trouble in | > | > paradise, contributors etc. The more I research, the more I | > | > find | > | > asking | > | > myself : where did we miss out? Is it because there was no Bell | > | > Company in | > | > Kenya? And what if we had the chance, what would motivate us? | > | > | > | > Rgds. | > | > | > | > On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Andrew Wafula | > | > <awafula@gmail.com> | > | > wrote: | > | > | > | >> Here is a story of the strange birth of UNIX - | > | >> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-... | > | >> * | > | >> * | > | >> | > | > | > | | > | -- | > | Sent from my mobile device | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Skunkworks mailing list | > | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | > | ------------ | > | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | > | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | > | ------------ | > | | > | Skunkworks Rules | > | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | > | ------------ | > | Other services @ http://my.co.ke | > | | > _______________________________________________ | > Skunkworks mailing list | > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | > ------------ | > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | > ------------ | > | > Skunkworks Rules | > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | > ------------ | > Other services @ http://my.co.ke | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | ------------ | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | ------------ | | Skunkworks Rules | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | ------------ | Other services @ http://my.co.ke | _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
This is where the whole security mess that's evident from so many Kenyan websites and software system all together. We have devs... oops sorry I mean business men opportunists who think its fare game going to google and downloading open source software and dishing it out to clients to make a quick buck. This is just a get rich quick scheme and nothing more.
Our devs dont understand how the internals of the open source code that they sell to clients really works... well... as long as it "works" everybody's happy. Unfortunately it has to take a hacker to reveal the true mess. It is unacceptable to has site like KNEC being run as they are and the likes if Nairobi Uni, Kenyatta Uni. This is a shame and its appalling how our IT gurus are content with that.
Perhaps the problem is with what and how it is being taught in the universities ? (i.e. learn by rote ) i was involved in interviews for some positions recently ... and I would say most university leavers end up doing the same project: "attendance management system" or "cafeteria management system" ... its only a few who have taken some personal initiative to do something interesting. its got nothing to do with open source or commercial software or any ideology of any kind.
Steve Its you and I who code these sites ... thats the problem ... you and I Not Open Source vs Closed Source I have seen IT Gurus attack a site because it was done in .net or not in ROR ... Thanks On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
Agosta, I have to disagree with you on some issues and the example with these two lines mentioned below is exactly where the problem is with Kenya ICT.
... Look, It doesn't matter, no one really cares about your bind, dns, php and c#...
.... But at the end of the day clients don't give a rats ass....
Just coz your clients are ignorant, excuse me, but as a responsible ICT contractor its your moral duty to give the client the best that you have whether they know it or not.
This is where the whole security mess that's evident from so many Kenyan websites and software system all together. We have devs... oops sorry I mean business men opportunists who think its fare game going to google and downloading open source software and dishing it out to clients to make a quick buck. This is just a get rich quick scheme and nothing more.
Our devs dont understand how the internals of the open source code that they sell to clients really works... well... as long as it "works" everybody's happy. Unfortunately it has to take a hacker to reveal the true mess. It is unacceptable to has site like KNEC being run as they are and the likes if Nairobi Uni, Kenyatta Uni. This is a shame and its appalling how our IT gurus are content with that.
Its time devs here realized just because software seems to work it does not mean its safe and secure both on resources and from intrusion. Why cant we use criticism on this list to have an idea where our weaknesses are and use that to develop ourselves.
----- Original Message ----- | From: "Agosta Liko" <agostal@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 8:15:10 AM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to | it? | | Another open source closed source argument ... | | Why can we just get along... Look, It doesn't matter, no one really | cares about your bind, dns, php and c# | | All that matters is does your shit work ? | | I have seen techies feel hot juu they use linux or windows or | macos... | And get into loong arguments .... But at the end of the day clients | don't give a rats ass | | How about we focus on solving day to day problems | | AMA - let's have a talkathon/codeathon/hackathon | | AKI vs Evans | | (I would love to meet Aki in person) | | On 12/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: | > Thanks @Andrew, over the past few days I've gone to sites that | > present a | > lot of data. I'm actually putting all the players now into a | > timeline so | > that it is much easier to know the gene, how far it travelled, | > trouble in | > paradise, contributors etc. The more I research, the more I find | > asking | > myself : where did we miss out? Is it because there was no Bell | > Company in | > Kenya? And what if we had the chance, what would motivate us? | > | > Rgds. | > | > On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Andrew Wafula <awafula@gmail.com> | > wrote: | > | >> Here is a story of the strange birth of UNIX - | >> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-... | >> * | >> * | >> | > | | -- | Sent from my mobile device | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | ------------ | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | ------------ | | Skunkworks Rules | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | ------------ | Other services @ http://my.co.ke | _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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@Agosta, that's true, its you and I who are the coders. hence my last paragraph where I mention We, our etc. I am also taking responsibility coz the finger pointing starts with me. I have to be an example. The more I code the more I get to know what is bad and why its bad and am obligated to try as much to stick to writing good code once I know what is good. ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Agosta Liko" <agostal@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 12:08:57 PM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the Unix | Kernel or did he add more innovative features to it? | Steve | Its you and I who code these sites ... thats the problem ... you and | I | Not Open Source vs Closed Source | I have seen IT Gurus attack a site because it was done in .net or not | in ROR ... | Thanks | On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Steve Obbayi < steve@sobbayi.com > | wrote: | | Agosta, I have to disagree with you on some issues and the example | | with these two lines mentioned below is exactly where the problem | | is | | with Kenya ICT.. | | | .... Look, It doesn't matter, no one really cares about your bind, | | dns, php and c#... | | | ..... But at the end of the day clients don't give a rats ass.... | | | Just coz your clients are ignorant, excuse me, but as a responsible | | ICT contractor its your moral duty to give the client the best that | | you have whether they know it or not. | | | This is where the whole security mess that's evident from so many | | Kenyan websites and software system all together. We have devs... | | oops sorry | | | I mean business men opportunists who think its fare game going to | | google and downloading open source software and dishing it out to | | clients to make a quick buck. This is just a get rich quick scheme | | and nothing more. | | | Our devs dont understand how the internals of the open source code | | that they sell to clients really works... well... as long as it | | "works" everybody's happy. Unfortunately it has to take a hacker to | | reveal the true mess. It is unacceptable to has site like KNEC | | being | | run as they are and the likes if Nairobi Uni, Kenyatta Uni. This is | | a shame and its appalling how our IT gurus are content with that. | | | Its time devs here realized just because software seems to work it | | does not mean its safe and secure both on resources and from | | intrusion. Why cant we use criticism on this list to have an idea | | where our weaknesses are and use that to develop ourselves. | | | ----- Original Message ----- | | | | From: "Agosta Liko" < agostal@gmail.com > | | | | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > | | | | Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 8:15:10 AM | | | | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Did Linus really reverse engineer the | | | Unix Kernel or did he add more innovative features to | | | | it? | | | | | | | | Another open source closed source argument ... | | | | | | | | Why can we just get along... Look, It doesn't matter, no one | | | really | | | | cares about your bind, dns, php and c# | | | | | | | | All that matters is does your shit work ? | | | | | | | | I have seen techies feel hot juu they use linux or windows or | | | | macos... | | | | And get into loong arguments .... But at the end of the day | | | clients | | | | don't give a rats ass | | | | | | | | How about we focus on solving day to day problems | | | | | | | | AMA - let's have a talkathon/codeathon/hackathon | | | | | | | | AKI vs Evans | | | | | | | | (I would love to meet Aki in person) | | | | | | | | On 12/2/11, aki < aki275@gmail.com > wrote: | | | | > Thanks @Andrew, over the past few days I've gone to sites that | | | | > present a | | | | > lot of data. I'm actually putting all the players now into a | | | | > timeline so | | | | > that it is much easier to know the gene, how far it travelled, | | | | > trouble in | | | | > paradise, contributors etc. The more I research, the more I | | | > find | | | | > asking | | | | > myself : where did we miss out? Is it because there was no Bell | | | | > Company in | | | | > Kenya? And what if we had the chance, what would motivate us? | | | | > | | | | > Rgds. | | | | > | | | | > On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Andrew Wafula < | | | > awafula@gmail.com | | | > > | | | | > wrote: | | | | > | | | | >> Here is a story of the strange birth of UNIX - | | | | >> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-... | | | | >> * | | | | >> * | | | | >> | | | | > | | | | | | | | -- | | | | Sent from my mobile device | | | | _______________________________________________ | | | | Skunkworks mailing list | | | | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | | | | ------------ | | | | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | | | | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | | | | ------------ | | | | | | | | Skunkworks Rules | | | | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | | | | ------------ | | | | Other services @ http://my.co.ke | | | | | | | _______________________________________________ | | | Skunkworks mailing list | | | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | | | ------------ | | | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | | | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | | | ------------ | | | Skunkworks Rules | | | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | | | ------------ | | | Other services @ http://my.co..ke | | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | ------------ | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | ------------ | Skunkworks Rules | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | ------------ | Other services @ http://my.co.ke
@Hello Aki, I actually tend to think that you have some valid point on this. Its probably the way you have put it that is not the most acceptable form :). I was hoping not to come back to this thread but, here we go ..... First of all, one of the most important contributions you can make to F/OSS is actually USING (as in a total end-user, think open office, Apache ....) the free / open software. From then on, you will get a general feel of where you can start giving other contributions like code / documentation / money, etc. The assumption you are making is that each of us is a coder. I highly doubt that, but that does not mean any of us is less important The second issue, and which is where I agree with you just remotely is that the field of Operating system research has actually stagnated. Just think of it, most if not all "modern" O.Ss are implemented in a language that was written almost 40 years ago (C and by extension C++). The follow a design originally created around the same time (AT & T UNIX) and therefore carry all the flaws (and strengths) of the said systems. It would be interesting to note that some guys have been bothered by this trend and have gone ahead to create alternate systems, which unfortunately have not been able to pick up, thanks to UNIX wild success :) Examples are plan 9 [ http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/about.html ] ( Dennis Ritchie used this system as his main platform since the mid-eighties till the time of his recent death ), Inferno { the two are distributed operating systems} MINIX (a UNIX compliant system that is a micro-kernel as opposed to UNIX's monolithic design) and BeOS, recently re-incarnated as Haiku-OS [ *haiku*-* os*.org ] whichs is a hybrid kernel. One a more personal note, I find it interesting that you are bothered with guys using a "reverse-engineered" kernel, while you claim to be a keen C# developer. Everyone knows that C# is a just a happy clone of SUN JAVA by Microsoft .... I wonder if you sleep well at night with this knowledge ;-D Martin.
Hey @Martin, :-) my view: You are very right, and if we ( me the hobbyist so far ) coders keep the knowledge and motivation going many other coders can make the right choices when getting into code. I'm on C# as a choice I made that I can no longer want to change now and do enjoy very much working with it when I have the time. On the aspect of reverse engineering, is the story of Sun any less than others? But it would bother me if linus as a coder role model used the same style, and that there are people in KE who are at this depp code level to not only correct me but also involve in discussion or even motivation. This is purely a coder view. Rgds. On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
One a more personal note, I find it interesting that you are bothered with guys using a "reverse-engineered" kernel, while you claim to be a keen C# developer. Everyone knows that C# is a just a happy clone of SUN JAVA by Microsoft .... I wonder if you sleep well at night with this knowledge ;-D
Martin.
ok, I have a simple question for linux programmers on this thread/list : - Suppose you managed to get a business deal where you deployed e.g 50 computers with the latest OS. You installed everything, and all works fine. You are now waiting to get paid, and the client calls you to tell you that their printers or modems do not work. Or they bought new items and they also do not work on the 50 machines. What will you do next after you are able to determine that the only option is a new kernel build with the latest update? a) Will you test other linux versions in panic mode and see what works best, and then re-deploy on all machines? This means the clien's work will be severely disrupted, they start to loose confidence in you. Not only that, you are loosing a lot of time re doing the whole thing, teaching them a new interface etc. c) Will you code the kernel to update the drivers etc thus ensuring a confidence approach to the client? What are your options then? Rgds.
Sorry missed a line, adding inline below. On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:47 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
ok, I have a simple question for linux programmers on this thread/list :
- Suppose you managed to get a business deal where you deployed e.g 50 computers with the latest OS. You installed everything, and all works fine. You are now waiting to get paid, and the client calls you to tell you that their printers or modems do not work. Or they bought new items and they also do not work on the 50 machines. What will you do next after you are able to determine that the only option is a new kernel build with the latest update?
a) Will you test other linux versions in panic mode and see what works best, and then re-deploy on all machines? This means the clien's work will be severely disrupted, they start to loose confidence in you. Not only that, you are loosing a lot of time re doing the whole thing, teaching them a new interface etc.
b) WIll you cheat them that the new devices will not work until there is an update available?
c) Will you code the kernel to update the drivers etc thus ensuring a confidence approach to the client?
What are your options then?
Rgds.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:57 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
do not work on the 50 machines. What will you do next after you are able to determine that the only option is a new kernel build with the latest update?
Are you just making this stuff up ? In the last 10 years i have never rebuilt a kernel. you dont have to rebuild a kernel to compile a device driver. nowadays most distros allow you to install and switch between different kernels. Do you happen to review films without watching them ?
@Ashok, what flavour of linux do you follow and why? Rgds. On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 4:38 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info> wrote:
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:57 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
do not work on the 50 machines. What will you do next after you are able to determine that the only option is a new kernel build with the latest update?
Are you just making this stuff up ? In the last 10 years i have never rebuilt a kernel. you dont have to rebuild a kernel to compile a device driver. nowadays most distros allow you to install and switch between different kernels. Do you happen to review films without watching them ? _______________________________________________
A time comes when I cant scroll down anymore. On to the next thread. ______________________________________
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-- Be the change you want to see in the world.
@Ashok, Just to confirm to you that I'm not making stuff up. Please review this thread that the Orange EVDO modem not working across all flavours. *I also do not see any of your responses to this thread below*. I see that it talks about the different versions that the modem works on and others that does not. Also mention where the problem is, whether the kernels need updates etc, http://skunkworkskenya.blogspot.com/2010/09/re-skunkworks-anyone-with-orange... Some thots.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 5:23 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok,
Just to confirm to you that I'm not making stuff up. Please review this thread that the Orange EVDO modem not working across all flavours. I also do not see any of your responses to this thread below. I see that it talks about the different versions that the modem works on and others that does not. Also mention where the problem is, whether the kernels need updates etc,
exactly why am i "expected to respond" ? what i do see is your opinion, which sounds more second hand with every googled up link you throw around. i am sure i can find many links about people struggling to install printers on windows or macs or whatever, but i wont. because i dont install printers on windows.
@Ashok, @Anthony. I declared ceasefire between any further comparsions or criticisms etc as of today morning and am not interested in such. These are counter-productive and not at code level. So please get any criticism of the linux OS out of your minds. The ONLY reason I followed up with the e.g. the need for kernel programming for linux programmers was the number of threads that have always sought help on this list genuinely. The Orange EVDO modem was one of them, so was the Safaricom 3g modem when they just appeared in the market. I remember trying to test Safaricom on FreeBSD which I really liked about 2 years and it worked after updates were applied. Let's put the thread back on track. That link I pasted was about fellow skunks having problems with the drivers or even kernel version. In a commercial environment, would it not be better for the programmer to be able to work at kernel level so that they can address the problem? @Ashok, in your case and since you've not had any problems for 10 years with your stable linux OS and the vast knowledge you have on it, why did you not let the listers know what the fix was i.e if you had seen the problem with the various kernel/OS versions and how they could move them. I think the OS versions on that link are 9 and 10. I found this book online and am sure there are others too which may interest linux programmers to go to kernel level. http://compnetworking.about.com/cs/linuxnetworking/gr/aapr-linuxkp.htm Rgds.
Aki, I am no programmer nor an authority in the IT industry but I have read through this thread and some others from you with amusement. This particular one started off a a quest to find out the motivation behind creation of Linux which has turned into a bashing of Linux and Open source. As far as I a concerned, both paradigms are here to say (Different businss requirements require an evaluation of the pro-and cons of using software from the different divide. Get used to that idea). Now when it comes to innovations, I can say both sides of the divide contribute to the development/betterment of IT. Its possible that closed has contributed more but equally there s no denying that Open has its contributions too. Have u ever wondered why are huge corporates like IBM and even Cisco, Toyota just to name a few are jumping into the Linux Bandwagon. We've seen countless times where Big corporates buy out small Open source IT firms to gain a foothold into some segment of the market or just to kill of the competition? I am really trying to avoid debate about closed vs. open as my intention was to talk about motivation and it believe me its not always about gain. (financial or otherwise). It varies from individual to individual. How would you explain this. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/01/AR2010070106... Some interesting 'watch' about motivation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc I want to believe you have looked at 'Revolution OS' in your search, if not here is the link. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7707585592627775409 Regards, Lenya On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 5:23 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok,
Just to confirm to you that I'm not making stuff up. Please review this thread that the Orange EVDO modem not working across all flavours. *I also do not see any of your responses to this thread below*. I see that it talks about the different versions that the modem works on and others that does not. Also mention where the problem is, whether the kernels need updates etc,
http://skunkworkskenya.blogspot.com/2010/09/re-skunkworks-anyone-with-orange...
Some thots.
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@Anthony, nice video links. Appreciate it. :-)
100 :-)
And in grand conclusion of this thread, according to the Revolution OS video (23:48 onwards in the video---Thnks @Lenya,wish you had shared this video earlier, am certain this thread would not have reached 100+) , the initial inspiration for Linus was propreitary SunOS that was running at the university. His inspiration was to replicate something similar on his computer for personal use, thus explaining the Unix-Like similarities. For me, this thread completely ends here. Nothing else to write... Gd day. :-)
Talking about innovation in terms of a "technical operating system" is missing the forest for the trees. By any measure no current operating system is innovative - perhaps the very first operating system was innovative. After all nothing has changed - we are still typing with keyboards -- yeah there maybe touchscreens but we are still using the same fingers for keyboard like actions -- whats so innovative about that ? In the same vein claiming USB as an innovation is silly -- since its just a better serial port in many practical ways. I can go on ... But the point is and was well made by Isaac Newton when asked about his innovative ideas : "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." . That is how every "innovation" has been built. Now coming to the Linux innovation. Its not the "Operating System" that is innovative -- after all what does it do differently from a myriad of other operating systems ? The innovation in Linux was not the OS itself but the "Social" element of it as a result of its community based licensing model. It brought a complex (and expensive) operating system within reach of everyone, whether they were university students or someone building a super-computer or someone looking for a suitable environment to power a new device - they all could open the hood and tinker with it. It brought all these different people together and made them communicate via their shared contributions. Which is why you have tremendous growth around the linux ecosystem and you find it adopted by things as diverse as a lowly Kindle ebook reader all the way up the chain to a Cray supercomputer. On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 11:28 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
And in grand conclusion of this thread, according to the Revolution OS video (23:48 onwards in the video---Thnks @Lenya,wish you had shared this video earlier, am certain this thread would not have reached 100+) , the initial inspiration for Linus was propreitary SunOS that was running at the university. His inspiration was to replicate something similar on his computer for personal use, thus explaining the Unix-Like similarities. For me, this thread completely ends here. Nothing else to write...
Gd day. :-)
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participants (21)
-
Agosta Liko -
aki -
amanya -
Andrew Wafula -
Anthony Lenya -
Ashok Hariharan -
ashok+skunkworks＠parliaments.info -
Evans Ikua -
Frankline Chitwa -
James Muendo -
James Nzomo -
Joseph Wayodi -
Martin Chiteri -
Rad! -
Steve Muchai -
Steve Obbayi -
T. Kibui -
Tech List Kenya -
TheMburu George -
Timothy Mutugi -
Tony Ndegwa