Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP.
Sigh, not again [?] In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. Bad coding, bad decisions, etc... On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth...
Martin. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- Regards Brian Ngure
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++) On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke> wrote:
Sigh, not again [?]
In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. Bad coding, bad decisions, etc...
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth...
Martin. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards
Brian Ngure
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of the times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor. What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked among the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P Martin. On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote:
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++)
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke> wrote:
Sigh, not again [?]
In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. Bad coding, bad decisions, etc...
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com
wrote:
http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth...
Martin. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards
Brian Ngure
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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Absolutely absurd article. Lines of code as a metic? On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of the times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked among the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'gichuhie@gmail.com');>
wrote:
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++)
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'brian@pixie.co.ke');>
wrote:
Sigh, not again [?]
In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. Bad coding, bad decisions, etc...
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'martin.chiteri@gmail.com');>> wrote:
http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth...
Martin. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards
Brian Ngure
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html ], for starters. Martin. On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of the times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked among the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote:
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++)
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke> wrote:
Sigh, not again [?]
In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. Bad coding, bad decisions, etc...
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth...
Martin. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards
Brian Ngure
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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Lines of code is a completely outdated metric. And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html], for starters.
Martin.
On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of the times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked
among
the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote:
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++)
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke>
wrote:
Sigh, not again
In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. Bad coding, bad decisions, etc...
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth...
Martin. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards
Brian Ngure
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------
Hi @Rad, On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Lines of code is a completely outdated metric.
This still matters, especially when you have to maintain software developed by many people over many years. The first concern is the time it takes to write the program (Man-months / years), and by extension this affects the cost in monetary terms. The lesser the SLOC the better in my opinion, especially for those of us who are not as good at handling complexity as well.
And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures? It may also help to also note that in the real world, much more time is spent in maintaining software than writing "new" lines of code. On the other hand well written Python and Ruby are sources are *unUsually* readable, don't you think so? Compared to say the same functionality say expressed in JAVA, C# or PHP? Some of the design decisions implicitly built into some of these languages is the ability to make them more readable and maintainable
Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse
This is also arguably true. Personally, I have never really wrapped my head around LISP, its descendants and its concepts. Maybe it was out of not trying too much ..... Martin. * P.S: *The reason the example given are metrics on LISP is that Norvig is probably the greatest LISPer alive (besides Paul Hamming [ www.paulgraham.com/ ] ) and the late John McCarthy.
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html], for starters.
Martin.
On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of
the
times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked among the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote:
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++)
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke>
wrote:
Sigh, not again
In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. Bad coding, bad decisions, etc...
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: > >
http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth...
> > Martin. > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards
Brian Ngure
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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Sorry, a little clarification on my question: This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures *but differ in their brevity (some are longer, others are shorter)*? Martin. On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Hi @Rad,
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Lines of code is a completely outdated metric.
This still matters, especially when you have to maintain software developed by many people over many years. The first concern is the time it takes to write the program (Man-months / years), and by extension this affects the cost in monetary terms. The lesser the SLOC the better in my opinion, especially for those of us who are not as good at handling complexity as well.
And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures? It may also help to also note that in the real world, much more time is spent in maintaining software than writing "new" lines of code.
On the other hand well written Python and Ruby are sources are *unUsually* readable, don't you think so? Compared to say the same functionality say expressed in JAVA, C# or PHP? Some of the design decisions implicitly built into some of these languages is the ability to make them more readable and maintainable
Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse
This is also arguably true. Personally, I have never really wrapped my head around LISP, its descendants and its concepts. Maybe it was out of not trying too much .....
Martin. * P.S: *The reason the example given are metrics on LISP is that Norvig is probably the greatest LISPer alive (besides Paul Hamming [ www.paulgraham.com/ ] ) and the late John McCarthy.
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html], for starters.
Martin.
On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of
the
times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked among the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote:
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on
the
tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++)
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke> wrote: > > Sigh, not again
> > In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. > Bad coding, bad decisions, etc... > > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri > <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth... >> >> Martin. >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > > > -- > Regards > > Brian Ngure > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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Lets take this discussion to a more productive level other than expressing opinions, lets have examples! So, for example, starting with nursery school constructs, suppose we want $d to contain the greater number between $a and $b <?php if ($a > $b ) { $d = $a } else { $d = $b } ?> can also be written as: <?php $d = $a > $b ? $a : $b; ?> So, which one would I prefer reading over and over again? The brevity of code can be measured by the LOC is has, but, how do you measure clarity? I would presume that the perception of clarity is dependent on the mental aptitude of the reader? On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Sorry, a little clarification on my question:
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures *but differ in their brevity (some are longer, others are shorter)*?
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Hi @Rad,
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Lines of code is a completely outdated metric.
This still matters, especially when you have to maintain software developed by many people over many years. The first concern is the time it takes to write the program (Man-months / years), and by extension this affects the cost in monetary terms. The lesser the SLOC the better in my opinion, especially for those of us who are not as good at handling complexity as well.
And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures? It may also help to also note that in the real world, much more time is spent in maintaining software than writing "new" lines of code.
On the other hand well written Python and Ruby are sources are *unUsually* readable, don't you think so? Compared to say the same functionality say expressed in JAVA, C# or PHP? Some of the design decisions implicitly built into some of these languages is the ability to make them more readable and maintainable
Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse
This is also arguably true. Personally, I have never really wrapped my head around LISP, its descendants and its concepts. Maybe it was out of not trying too much .....
Martin. * P.S: *The reason the example given are metrics on LISP is that Norvig is probably the greatest LISPer alive (besides Paul Hamming [ www.paulgraham.com/ ] ) and the late John McCarthy.
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html], for starters.
Martin.
On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of
the
times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked among the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote: > > > i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the > tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++) > > > > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke> wrote: >> >> Sigh, not again
>> >> In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. >> Bad coding, bad decisions, etc... >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri >> <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth... >>> >>> Martin. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Skunkworks mailing list >>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Regards >> >> Brian Ngure >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------
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-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
Well put Peter. Martin look at those examples. Clarity is in the eye of the beholder. I'd take the first eny day, despite it being more lines of code. Also, readability is entirely subjective. A java guy will find java code more readable than python code, no? On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Peter Karunyu wrote:
Lets take this discussion to a more productive level other than expressing opinions, lets have examples!
So, for example, starting with nursery school constructs, suppose we want $d to contain the greater number between $a and $b
<?php if ($a > $b ) { $d = $a } else { $d = $b } ?>
can also be written as: <?php $d = $a > $b ? $a : $b; ?>
So, which one would I prefer reading over and over again?
The brevity of code can be measured by the LOC is has, but, how do you measure clarity? I would presume that the perception of clarity is dependent on the mental aptitude of the reader?
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Sorry, a little clarification on my question:
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures *but differ in their brevity (some are longer, others are shorter)*?
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Hi @Rad,
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Lines of code is a completely outdated metric.
This still matters, especially when you have to maintain software developed by many people over many years. The first concern is the time it takes to write the program (Man-months / years), and by extension this affects the cost in monetary terms. The lesser the SLOC the better in my opinion, especially for those of us who are not as good at handling complexity as well.
And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures? It may also help to also note that in the real world, much more time is spent in maintaining software than writing "new" lines of code.
On the other hand well written Python and Ruby are sources are *unUsually* readable, don't you think so? Compared to say the same functionality say expressed in JAVA, C# or PHP? Some of the design decisions implicitly built into some of these languages is the ability to make them more readable and maintainable
Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse
This is also arguably true. Personally, I have never really wrapped my head around LISP, its descendants and its concepts. Maybe it was out of not trying too much .....
Martin. * P.S: *The reason the example given are metrics on LISP is that Norvig is probably the greatest LISPer alive (besides Paul Hamming [ www.paulgraham.com/ ] ) and the late John McCarthy.
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html], for starters.
Martin.
On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of the times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also
Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
How about guys actually learn python to dispel this notion. Having both coded in Python and PHP, I was amazed at how faster I could code in Python, as I needed 10s of lines in what I could have done in 100s. The argument here is not that python is better, it is that it is faster, and will save you time. We can argue all day, but how people actually learn python, for starters ? Sent from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "Rad!" <conradakunga@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:57:07 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
@Dennis, On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 6:05 PM, <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:
How about guys actually learn python to dispel this notion. Having both coded in Python and PHP, I was amazed at how faster I could code in Python, as I needed 10s of lines in what I could have done in 100s.
You have absolutely covered my concerns!!
The argument here is not that python is better, it is that it is faster, and will save you time.
100%
We can argue all day, but how people actually learn python, for starters ?
Am usually trying to provoke coders (through subliminal messages :D ) to try the same and realize the rise in productivity, if and when possible. I (former PHP addict) did the same and have never regretted. All people need to do is to explore alternatives and adapt them to their needs because clearly, no language is perfect. Thank you! Martin.
Sent from my BlackBerry®
-----Original Message----- From: "Rad!" <conradakunga@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:57:07 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Hi @Rad,
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'conradakunga@gmail.com');>
wrote:
Lines of code is a completely outdated metric.
This still matters, especially when you have to maintain software developed by many people over many years. The first concern is the time it takes to write the program (Man-months / years), and by extension this affects the cost in monetary terms. The lesser the SLOC the better in my opinion, especially for those of us who are not as good at handling complexity as well.
I am inclined to disagree. Fewer lines of code does not necessarily mean easy to maintain. The best example I can give is the POSIX regular expression to validate email addresses. This you can get in a few lines. It is a MONSTER. But to maintain it is hell on earth.
And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures? It may also help to also note that in the real world, much more time is spent in maintaining software than writing "new" lines of code.
You're mixing terms here. Clarity and lines of code are not interchangeable terms. Something can have a lot of code and be very clear. Conversely very few lines of code and very unclear.
On the other hand well written Python and Ruby are sources are *unUsually* readable, don't you think so? Compared to say the same functionality say expressed in JAVA, C# or PHP? Some of the design decisions implicitly built into some of these languages is the ability to make them more readable and maintainable
Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse
This is also arguably true. Personally, I have never really wrapped my head around LISP, its descendants and its concepts. Maybe it was out of not trying too much .....
Martin. * P.S: *The reason the example given are metrics on LISP is that Norvig is probably the greatest LISPer alive (besides Paul Hamming [ www.paulgraham.com/ ] ) and the late John McCarthy.
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html], for starters.
Martin.
On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of the times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked
among
the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote:
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++)
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke>
wrote:
Sigh, not again
In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. Bad coding, bad decisions, etc...
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth...
Martin. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards
Brian Ngure
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------
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Martin here's th example. First is a one line regex to validate an email address http://www.ex-parrot.com/pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html Second is a multi line one http://stackoverflow.com/questions/997078/email-regular-expression Which has more lines of code? The second. Which is clearer? I dare say the scond On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Rad! wrote:
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Hi @Rad,
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Lines of code is a completely outdated metric.
This still matters, especially when you have to maintain software developed by many people over many years. The first concern is the time it takes to write the program (Man-months / years), and by extension this affects the cost in monetary terms. The lesser the SLOC the better in my opinion, especially for those of us who are not as good at handling complexity as well.
I am inclined to disagree. Fewer lines of code does not necessarily mean easy to maintain. The best example I can give is the POSIX regular expression to validate email addresses. This you can get in a few lines. It is a MONSTER. But to maintain it is hell on earth.
And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures? It may also help to also note that in the real world, much more time is spent in maintaining software than writing "new" lines of code.
You're mixing terms here. Clarity and lines of code are not interchangeable terms. Something can have a lot of code and be very clear. Conversely very few lines of code and very unclear.
On the other hand well written Python and Ruby are sources are *unUsually* readable, don't you think so? Compared to say the same functionality say expressed in JAVA, C# or PHP? Some of the design decisions implicitly built into some of these languages is the ability to make them more readable and maintainable
Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse
This is also arguably true. Personally, I have never really wrapped my head around LISP, its descendants and its concepts. Maybe it was out of not trying too much .....
Martin. * P.S: *The reason the example given are metrics on LISP is that Norvig is probably the greatest LISPer alive (besides Paul Hamming [ www.paulgraham.com/ ] ) and the late John McCarthy.
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html], for starters.
Martin.
On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of the times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked
among
the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote:
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++)
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke>
wrote:
Sigh, not again
In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. Bad coding, bad decisions, etc...
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth...
Martin. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards
Brian Ngure
@Rad, I think I clarified the statement about clarity and code brevity. I also think that the examples you have laid out are not the best ideal, you can give better ones more likely to be encountered in day- to-day life. @Peter, the second example is not as readable as the first *UNLESS* you are accustomed to the ternary operator in C-type languages. Personally, I would use it any day to the ordinary *if / else* statement. If I were a budding programmer, I would stick to the advice given by @Dennis Mbuvi. Its a lot more sobbber. Martin. On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Martin here's th example.
First is a one line regex to validate an email address
http://www.ex-parrot.com/pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html
Second is a multi line one
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/997078/email-regular-expression
Which has more lines of code? The second.
Which is clearer? I dare say the scond
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Rad! wrote:
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Hi @Rad,
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Lines of code is a completely outdated metric.
This still matters, especially when you have to maintain software developed by many people over many years. The first concern is the time it takes to write the program (Man-months / years), and by extension this affects the cost in monetary terms. The lesser the SLOC the better in my opinion, especially for those of us who are not as good at handling complexity as well.
I am inclined to disagree. Fewer lines of code does not necessarily mean easy to maintain. The best example I can give is the POSIX regular expression to validate email addresses. This you can get in a few lines. It is a MONSTER. But to maintain it is hell on earth.
And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures? It may also help to also note that in the real world, much more time is spent in maintaining software than writing "new" lines of code.
You're mixing terms here. Clarity and lines of code are not interchangeable terms. Something can have a lot of code and be very clear. Conversely very few lines of code and very unclear.
On the other hand well written Python and Ruby are sources are *unUsually* readable, don't you think so? Compared to say the same functionality say expressed in JAVA, C# or PHP? Some of the design decisions implicitly built into some of these languages is the ability to make them more readable and maintainable
Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse
This is also arguably true. Personally, I have never really wrapped my head around LISP, its descendants and its concepts. Maybe it was out of not trying too much .....
Martin. * P.S: *The reason the example given are metrics on LISP is that Norvig is probably the greatest LISPer alive (besides Paul Hamming [ www.paulgraham.com/ ] ) and the late John McCarthy.
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html], for starters.
Martin.
On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of
the
times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked among the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote:
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++)
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke>
wrote:
Sigh, not again
In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. Bad coding, bad decisions, etc...
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: > >
http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth...
> > Martin. > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards
Brian Ngure
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Validating email is something you will encounter, no? Anyway, this debate is entirely subjective. BTW even today I write code primarily in C#, F#, VB.NET, Python and PHP. Foe the problem domains I have chosen them ,I find myself perfectly productive. I'm sure there is a COBOL guy here who will say the same. Let me now retire my non sober views from this debate. On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
@Rad, I think I clarified the statement about clarity and code brevity.
I also think that the examples you have laid out are not the best ideal, you can give better ones more likely to be encountered in day- to-day life.
@Peter, the second example is not as readable as the first *UNLESS* you are accustomed to the ternary operator in C-type languages. Personally, I would use it any day to the ordinary *if / else* statement.
If I were a budding programmer, I would stick to the advice given by @Dennis Mbuvi. Its a lot more sobbber.
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Martin here's th example.
First is a one line regex to validate an email address
http://www.ex-parrot.com/pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html
Second is a multi line one
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/997078/email-regular-expression
Which has more lines of code? The second.
Which is clearer? I dare say the scond
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Rad! wrote:
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Hi @Rad,
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Lines of code is a completely outdated metric.
This still matters, especially when you have to maintain software developed by many people over many years. The first concern is the time it takes to write the program (Man-months / years), and by extension this affects the cost in monetary terms. The lesser the SLOC the better in my opinion, especially for those of us who are not as good at handling complexity as well.
I am inclined to disagree. Fewer lines of code does not necessarily mean easy to maintain. The best example I can give is the POSIX regular expression to validate email addresses. This you can get in a few lines. It is a MONSTER. But to maintain it is hell on earth.
And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures? It may also help to also note that in the real world, much more time is spent in maintaining software than writing "new" lines of code.
You're mixing terms here. Clarity and lines of code are not interchangeable terms. Something can have a lot of code and be very clear. Conversely very few lines of code and very unclear.
On the other hand well written Python and Ruby are sources are *unUsually* readable, don't you think so? Compared to say the same functionality say expressed in JAVA, C# or PHP? Some of the design decisions implicitly built into some of these languages is the ability to make them more readable and maintainable
Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse
This is also arguably true. Personally, I have never really wrapped my head around LISP, its descendants and its concepts. Maybe it was out of not trying too much .....
Martin. * P.S: *The reason the example given are metrics on LISP is that Norvig is probably the greatest LISPer alive (besides Paul Hamming [ www.paulgraham.com/ ] ) and the late John McCarthy.
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ <http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html>
im not a hard core programmer, but i know a thing or two about maintenence of code, especially code not written. Ill use live examples at the expense of being shot alive. 1: Wordpress is xtremely simple and easy to maintain, Ive had more years on joomla than wordpress but i still think wordpress has stuck to KISS well.... 11 tables and thats it. Oh, and Its written in PHP. 2: SugarCRM is a B.I.T.C.H. after time you learn to tame it, For software that does soo little, they sure did write a lot of lines of code for it. ow, Its also written on PHP. I think sugarcrm has soo many lines of code youd still be able to circle the globe with sugarcrm code font 6. 3: OpenERP on the other end is a beauty. It can Do 100 times what sugar can do with way fewer demands. I never went to anyone's python school but i know my way inside out. 4: Mifos is written on java...... yes java, and my quad core CPU could not catch up. yet i know one or two java apps that run quite decently... 6: Joomla and drupal are written to standards..... My Whole point..... a good software engineer will do anything with anything and make it maintainable.... On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
@Rad, I think I clarified the statement about clarity and code brevity.
I also think that the examples you have laid out are not the best ideal, you can give better ones more likely to be encountered in day- to-day life.
@Peter, the second example is not as readable as the first *UNLESS* you are accustomed to the ternary operator in C-type languages. Personally, I would use it any day to the ordinary *if / else* statement.
If I were a budding programmer, I would stick to the advice given by @Dennis Mbuvi. Its a lot more sobbber.
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Martin here's th example.
First is a one line regex to validate an email address
http://www.ex-parrot.com/pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html
Second is a multi line one
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/997078/email-regular-expression
Which has more lines of code? The second.
Which is clearer? I dare say the scond
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Rad! wrote:
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Hi @Rad,
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Lines of code is a completely outdated metric.
This still matters, especially when you have to maintain software developed by many people over many years. The first concern is the time it takes to write the program (Man-months / years), and by extension this affects the cost in monetary terms. The lesser the SLOC the better in my opinion, especially for those of us who are not as good at handling complexity as well.
I am inclined to disagree. Fewer lines of code does not necessarily mean easy to maintain. The best example I can give is the POSIX regular expression to validate email addresses. This you can get in a few lines. It is a MONSTER. But to maintain it is hell on earth.
And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures? It may also help to also note that in the real world, much more time is spent in maintaining software than writing "new" lines of code.
You're mixing terms here. Clarity and lines of code are not interchangeable terms. Something can have a lot of code and be very clear. Conversely very few lines of code and very unclear.
On the other hand well written Python and Ruby are sources are *unUsually* readable, don't you think so? Compared to say the same functionality say expressed in JAVA, C# or PHP? Some of the design decisions implicitly built into some of these languages is the ability to make them more readable and maintainable
Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse
This is also arguably true. Personally, I have never really wrapped my head around LISP, its descendants and its concepts. Maybe it was out of not trying too much .....
Martin. * P.S: *The reason the example given are metrics on LISP is that Norvig is probably the greatest LISPer alive (besides Paul Hamming [ www.paulgraham.com/ ] ) and the late John McCarthy.
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html], for starters.
Martin.
On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of
the
times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked among the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote:
i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on
the
tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++)
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke> wrote: > > Sigh, not again
> > In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. > Bad coding, bad decisions, etc... > > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri > <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth... >> >> Martin. >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > > > -- > Regards > > Brian Ngure
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”*
http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/advice.html Martin. On 6/26/12, Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote:
im not a hard core programmer, but i know a thing or two about maintenence of code, especially code not written. Ill use live examples at the expense of being shot alive.
1: Wordpress is xtremely simple and easy to maintain, Ive had more years on joomla than wordpress but i still think wordpress has stuck to KISS well.... 11 tables and thats it. Oh, and Its written in PHP.
2: SugarCRM is a B.I.T.C.H. after time you learn to tame it, For software that does soo little, they sure did write a lot of lines of code for it. ow, Its also written on PHP. I think sugarcrm has soo many lines of code youd still be able to circle the globe with sugarcrm code font 6.
3: OpenERP on the other end is a beauty. It can Do 100 times what sugar can do with way fewer demands. I never went to anyone's python school but i know my way inside out.
4: Mifos is written on java...... yes java, and my quad core CPU could not catch up. yet i know one or two java apps that run quite decently...
6: Joomla and drupal are written to standards.....
My Whole point..... a good software engineer will do anything with anything and make it maintainable....
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
@Rad, I think I clarified the statement about clarity and code brevity.
I also think that the examples you have laid out are not the best ideal, you can give better ones more likely to be encountered in day- to-day life.
@Peter, the second example is not as readable as the first *UNLESS* you are accustomed to the ternary operator in C-type languages. Personally, I would use it any day to the ordinary *if / else* statement.
If I were a budding programmer, I would stick to the advice given by @Dennis Mbuvi. Its a lot more sobbber.
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Martin here's th example.
First is a one line regex to validate an email address
http://www.ex-parrot.com/pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html
Second is a multi line one
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/997078/email-regular-expression
Which has more lines of code? The second.
Which is clearer? I dare say the scond
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Rad! wrote:
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Hi @Rad,
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Lines of code is a completely outdated metric.
This still matters, especially when you have to maintain software developed by many people over many years. The first concern is the time it takes to write the program (Man-months / years), and by extension this affects the cost in monetary terms. The lesser the SLOC the better in my opinion, especially for those of us who are not as good at handling complexity as well.
I am inclined to disagree. Fewer lines of code does not necessarily mean easy to maintain. The best example I can give is the POSIX regular expression to validate email addresses. This you can get in a few lines. It is a MONSTER. But to maintain it is hell on earth.
And cooling lines of code with maintain ability is a demonstrably false assertion. Maintainability is not a function of lines of code. It is a function of the clairity of code, algorithmic design, control flow, etc
This is also true, but if given two or more programs written with equal clarity, which one would you prefer supposing they solve the same problem in exact measures? It may also help to also note that in the real world, much more time is spent in maintaining software than writing "new" lines of code.
You're mixing terms here. Clarity and lines of code are not interchangeable terms. Something can have a lot of code and be very clear. Conversely very few lines of code and very unclear.
On the other hand well written Python and Ruby are sources are *unUsually* readable, don't you think so? Compared to say the same functionality say expressed in JAVA, C# or PHP? Some of the design decisions implicitly built into some of these languages is the ability to make them more readable and maintainable
Finally, if lines of code were a consideration, Lisp and its children (scheme, CAML, etc) areeven more terse
This is also arguably true. Personally, I have never really wrapped my head around LISP, its descendants and its concepts. Maybe it was out of not trying too much .....
Martin. * P.S: *The reason the example given are metrics on LISP is that Norvig is probably the greatest LISPer alive (besides Paul Hamming [ www.paulgraham.com/ ] ) and the late John McCarthy.
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
Well, the article itself does not have "hard" numbers to support their premises. There is an example here [ http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html], for starters.
Martin.
On 6/26/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Absolutely absurd article.
Lines of code as a metic?
On Tuesday, June 26, 2012, Martin Chiteri wrote:
I agree with what @Gisho and @Brian say. Sometimes (actually most of
the
times) it is immaterial what language you use. Your skill / experience with it / them and the tools available make a larger difference. The problem set approached may also be an important factor.
What I found interesting is the kind of reaction the article sparked among the PERL zealots [ http://reliscore.com/blog/why-every-programmer-should-learn-python-or-ruby/ ]. It would have been amusing to see something similar on this list. :P
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM, gisho <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote: > > > i don't want to get into this but python delivers whats written on the > tin (having coded with java/c#/vb/php/c++) > > > > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Brian Ngure <brian@pixie.co.ke> wrote: >> >> Sigh, not again
>> >> In any language, the problems that normally arise are usually PEBKAC. >> Bad coding, bad decisions, etc... >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Martin Chiteri >> <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> http://www.coderbuzz.com/discussion/4/why-every-programmer-should-learn-pyth... >>> >>> Martin. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Skunkworks mailing list >>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Regards >> >> Brian Ngure >
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-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”*
I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad workman blames his tools. I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases I can explore. [1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web functionality was requested by the teachers. [2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language would be sacrificed on account of the exposure. [3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti... My point is that there is more to software development than choice of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for developers). Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya -----Original Message----- From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Well, @Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you use. I will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is almost entirely a factor of: 1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated tool(s), 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you decide to approach it in its earliest stages. There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't forget the two premises above. What you should understand is that language choices have never been rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the time, we have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there are better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge Python shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M <http://www.dalvikvm.com/> (yeah that is right) as the main platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a syntax which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The idea was to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The software development market place works in more or less same fashion. I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress / Flickr / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point is that it takes **A LOT LESS effort** to do so in other languages and tools for average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort of got lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet money that if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances are high that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as an extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++<https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2010/02/02/hiphop-for-php--move-fast/>executing as an Apache module for reasons of performance. Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers *to not write more code* in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a decision not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it is Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends program in V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes ....... <offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other compilers are either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The Windows program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' programming will be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on UNIX (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version of UNIX called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic> Martin. On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad workman blames his tools.
I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases I can explore.
[1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web functionality was requested by the teachers.
[2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language would be sacrificed on account of the exposure.
[3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti...
My point is that there is more to software development than choice of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for developers).
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya
-----Original Message----- From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP.
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Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit stronger. But this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket list. Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these questions to @Dennis and @Martin: 1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or general, that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less effort that PHP to do the same thing? 2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using 10s LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit more detailed example? I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from your perspective. On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Well,
@Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you use. I will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is almost entirely a factor of:
1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated tool(s), 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you decide to approach it in its earliest stages.
There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't forget the two premises above.
What you should understand is that language choices have never been rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the time, we have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there are better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge Python shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M <http://www.dalvikvm.com/> (yeah that is right) as the main platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a syntax which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The idea was to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The software development market place works in more or less same fashion.
I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress / Flickr / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point is that it takes * *A LOT LESS effort** to do so in other languages and tools for average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort of got lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet money that if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances are high that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as an extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++<https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2010/02/02/hiphop-for-php--move-fast/>executing as an Apache module for reasons of performance.
Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers *to not write more code* in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a decision not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it is Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends program in V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes .......
<offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other compilers are either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The Windows program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' programming will be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on UNIX (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version of UNIX called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic>
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad workman blames his tools.
I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases I can explore.
[1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web functionality was requested by the teachers.
[2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language would be sacrificed on account of the exposure.
[3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti...
My point is that there is more to software development than choice of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for developers).
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya
-----Original Message----- From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
Well said peter. In fact to make things interesting if lines of code seems to be the issue, table a problem and invite solutions from multiple languages so we can empirically put this debate to an end On 27 Jun 2012 07:22, "Peter Karunyu" <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote:
Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit stronger. But this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket list.
Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these questions to @Dennis and @Martin:
1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or general, that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less effort that PHP to do the same thing? 2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using 10s LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit more detailed example?
I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from your perspective.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Well,
@Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you use. I will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is almost entirely a factor of:
1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated tool(s), 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you decide to approach it in its earliest stages.
There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't forget the two premises above.
What you should understand is that language choices have never been rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the time, we have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there are better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge Python shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M <http://www.dalvikvm.com/> (yeah that is right) as the main platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a syntax which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The idea was to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The software development market place works in more or less same fashion.
I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress / Flickr / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point is that it takes **A LOT LESS effort** to do so in other languages and tools for average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort of got lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet money that if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances are high that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as an extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++<https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2010/02/02/hiphop-for-php--move-fast/>executing as an Apache module for reasons of performance.
Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers *to not write more code* in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a decision not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it is Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends program in V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes .......
<offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other compilers are either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The Windows program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' programming will be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on UNIX (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version of UNIX called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic>
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad workman blames his tools.
I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases I can explore.
[1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web functionality was requested by the teachers.
[2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language would be sacrificed on account of the exposure.
[3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti...
My point is that there is more to software development than choice of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for developers).
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya
-----Original Message----- From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
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Popcorn, check.... drinks, check. Let the show begin! On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Well said peter.
In fact to make things interesting if lines of code seems to be the issue, table a problem and invite solutions from multiple languages so we can empirically put this debate to an end On 27 Jun 2012 07:22, "Peter Karunyu" <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote:
Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit stronger. But this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket list.
Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these questions to @Dennis and @Martin:
1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or general, that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less effort that PHP to do the same thing? 2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using 10s LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit more detailed example?
I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from your perspective.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com
wrote:
Well,
@Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you use. I will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is almost entirely a factor of:
1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated tool(s), 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you decide to approach it in its earliest stages.
There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't forget the two premises above.
What you should understand is that language choices have never been rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the time, we have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there are better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge Python shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M <http://www.dalvikvm.com/> (yeah that is right) as the main platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a syntax which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The idea was to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The software development market place works in more or less same fashion.
I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress / Flickr / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point is that it takes **A LOT LESS effort** to do so in other languages and tools for average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort of got lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet money that if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances are high that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as an extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++<https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2010/02/02/hiphop-for-php--move-fast/>executing as an Apache module for reasons of performance.
Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers *to not write more code*in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a decision not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it is Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends program in V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes .......
<offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other compilers are either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The Windows program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' programming will be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on UNIX (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version of UNIX called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic>
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad workman blames his tools.
I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases I can explore.
[1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web functionality was requested by the teachers.
[2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language would be sacrificed on account of the exposure.
[3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti...
My point is that there is more to software development than choice of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for developers).
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya
-----Original Message----- From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP.
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-- www.golavish.com - The travel and leisure www.raccuddasys.com - code Development issues
@Peter, On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote:
Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit stronger. But this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket list.
Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these questions to @Dennis and @Martin:
1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or general, that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less effort that PHP to do the same thing?
I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, the admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client side scripts (javascript).
2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using 10s LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit more detailed example?
@Rad
Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no?
I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from your perspective.
Martin. -- "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ 0x ]
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Well,
@Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you use. I will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is almost entirely a factor of:
1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated tool(s), 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you decide to approach it in its earliest stages.
There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't forget the two premises above.
What you should understand is that language choices have never been rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the time, we have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there are better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge Python shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M <http://www.dalvikvm.com/> (yeah that is right) as the main platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a syntax which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The idea was to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The software development market place works in more or less same fashion.
I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress / Flickr / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point is that it takes **A LOT LESS effort** to do so in other languages and tools for average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort of got lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet money that if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances are high that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as an extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++<https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2010/02/02/hiphop-for-php--move-fast/>executing as an Apache module for reasons of performance.
Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers *to not write more code* in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a decision not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it is Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends program in V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes .......
<offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other compilers are either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The Windows program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' programming will be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on UNIX (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version of UNIX called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic>
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad workman blames his tools.
I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases I can explore.
[1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web functionality was requested by the teachers.
[2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language would be sacrificed on account of the exposure.
[3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti...
My point is that there is more to software development than choice of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for developers).
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya
-----Original Message----- From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP.
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-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
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That is precisely what i am suggesting. As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves? On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Peter,
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote:
Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit stronger. But this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket list.
Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these questions to @Dennis and @Martin:
1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or general, that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less effort that PHP to do the same thing?
I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, the admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client side scripts (javascript).
2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using 10s LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit more detailed example?
@Rad
Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no?
I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from your perspective.
Martin.
-- "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ 0x ]
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com
wrote:
Well,
@Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you use. I will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is almost entirely a factor of:
1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated tool(s), 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you decide to approach it in its earliest stages.
There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't forget the two premises above.
What you should understand is that language choices have never been rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the time, we have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there are better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge Python shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M <http://www.dalvikvm.com/> (yeah that is right) as the main platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a syntax which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The idea was to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The software development market place works in more or less same fashion.
I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress / Flickr / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point is that it takes **A LOT LESS effort** to do so in other languages and tools for average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort of got lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet money that if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances are high that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as an extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++<https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2010/02/02/hiphop-for-php--move-fast/>executing as an Apache module for reasons of performance.
Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers *to not write more code*in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a decision not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it is Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends program in V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes .......
<offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other compilers are either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The Windows program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' programming will be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on UNIX (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version of UNIX called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic>
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad workman blames his tools.
I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases I can explore.
[1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web functionality was requested by the teachers.
[2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language would be sacrificed on account of the exposure.
[3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti...
My point is that there is more to software development than choice of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for developers).
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya
-----Original Message----- From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP.
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-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
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@Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in particular languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer grain along which to work on.) The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was originally written in PHP<https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/faq/general/>but development was ditched mid-way when the going really became uncomfortable<http://news.e-scribe.com/41>and the project had to be restarted in Python. The same applies to RoR. Martin. On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
That is precisely what i am suggesting.
As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves? On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Peter,
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com>wrote:
Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit stronger. But this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket list.
Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these questions to @Dennis and @Martin:
1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or general, that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less effort that PHP to do the same thing?
I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, the admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client side scripts (javascript).
2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using 10s LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit more detailed example?
@Rad
Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no?
I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from your perspective.
Martin.
-- "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ 0x ]
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
Well,
@Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you use. I will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is almost entirely a factor of:
1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated tool(s), 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you decide to approach it in its earliest stages.
There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't forget the two premises above.
What you should understand is that language choices have never been rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the time, we have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there are better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge Python shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M <http://www.dalvikvm.com/> (yeah that is right) as the main platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a syntax which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The idea was to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The software development market place works in more or less same fashion.
I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress / Flickr / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point is that it takes **A LOT LESS effort** to do so in other languages and tools for average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort of got lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet money that if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances are high that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as an extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++<https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2010/02/02/hiphop-for-php--move-fast/>executing as an Apache module for reasons of performance.
Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers *to not write more code*in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a decision not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it is Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends program in V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes .......
<offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other compilers are either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The Windows program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' programming will be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on UNIX (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version of UNIX called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic>
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad workman blames his tools.
I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases I can explore.
[1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web functionality was requested by the teachers.
[2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language would be sacrificed on account of the exposure.
[3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti...
My point is that there is more to software development than choice of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for developers).
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya
-----Original Message----- From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP.
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-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
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Ok, so everyone is scared sh!$ of coming up with a sample problem.... here is a sample problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- start. Input form: collect personal data: name, date of birth, photo, place of birth and two upload fields, a photo and a .doc short description. Output. 1: An ID design in PNG format with all these inbuilt... (forget fancy layout, just the elements positioned in a single .png file. end. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ evaluation: =>lines of code: =>external libraried (reinventing the wheel) =>clarity of the design. => maintainability... On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
@Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in particular languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer grain along which to work on.)
The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was originally written in PHP<https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/faq/general/>but development was ditched mid-way when the going really became uncomfortable<http://news.e-scribe.com/41>and the project had to be restarted in Python. The same applies to RoR.
Martin.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
That is precisely what i am suggesting.
As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves? On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Peter,
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com>wrote:
Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit stronger. But this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket list.
Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these questions to @Dennis and @Martin:
1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or general, that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less effort that PHP to do the same thing?
I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, the admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client side scripts (javascript).
2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using 10s LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit more detailed example?
@Rad
Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no?
I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from your perspective.
Martin.
-- "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ 0x ]
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
Well,
@Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you use. I will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is almost entirely a factor of:
1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated tool(s), 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you decide to approach it in its earliest stages.
There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't forget the two premises above.
What you should understand is that language choices have never been rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the time, we have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there are better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge Python shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M <http://www.dalvikvm.com/>(yeah that is right) as the main platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a syntax which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The idea was to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The software development market place works in more or less same fashion.
I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress / Flickr / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point is that it takes **A LOT LESS effort** to do so in other languages and tools for average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort of got lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet money that if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances are high that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as an extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++<https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2010/02/02/hiphop-for-php--move-fast/>executing as an Apache module for reasons of performance.
Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers *to not write more code*in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a decision not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it is Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends program in V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes .......
<offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other compilers are either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The Windows program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' programming will be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on UNIX (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version of UNIX called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic>
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad workman blames his tools.
I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases I can explore.
[1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web functionality was requested by the teachers.
[2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language would be sacrificed on account of the exposure.
[3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti...
My point is that there is more to software development than choice of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for developers).
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya
-----Original Message----- From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or PHP.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”*
I was about to suggest something more challenging that really pushed the limits of the language like a sudoku solver. Or rudimentary draughs On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, so everyone is scared sh!$ of coming up with a sample problem.... here is a sample problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- start.
Input form: collect personal data: name, date of birth, photo, place of birth and two upload fields, a photo and a .doc short description.
Output. 1: An ID design in PNG format with all these inbuilt... (forget fancy layout, just the elements positioned in a single .png file.
end. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ evaluation: =>lines of code: =>external libraried (reinventing the wheel) =>clarity of the design. => maintainability...
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in particular languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer grain along which to work on.)
The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was originally written in PHP but development was ditched mid-way when the going really became uncomfortable and the project had to be restarted in Python. The same applies to RoR.
Martin.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
That is precisely what i am suggesting.
As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves?
On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Peter,
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote:
Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit stronger. But this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket list.
Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these questions to @Dennis and @Martin:
1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or general, that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less effort that PHP to do the same thing?
I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, the admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client side scripts (javascript).
2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using 10s LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit more detailed example?
@Rad
Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no?
I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from your perspective.
Martin.
-- "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ 0x ]
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
Well,
@Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you use. I will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is almost entirely a factor of:
1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated tool(s), 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you decide to approach it in its earliest stages.
There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't forget the two premises above.
What you should understand is that language choices have never been rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the time, we have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there are better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge Python shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M (yeah that is right) as the main platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a syntax which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The idea was to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The software development market place works in more or less same fashion.
I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress / Flickr / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point is that it takes *A LOT LESS effort* to do so in other languages and tools for average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort of got lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet money that if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances are high that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as an extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++ executing as an Apache module for reasons of performance.
Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers to not write more code in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a decision not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it is Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends program in V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes .......
<offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other compilers are either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The Windows program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' programming will be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on UNIX (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version of UNIX called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic>
Martin.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin > + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad > workman blames his tools. > > I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases > I can explore. > > [1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in > the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the > students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was > written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It > was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web > functionality was requested by the teachers. > > [2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It > works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on > account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. > Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at > Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language > would be sacrificed on account of the exposure. > > [3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP > http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti... > > My point is that there is more to software development than choice > of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that > UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle > is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often > get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use > for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a > problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. > They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they > are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to > use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs > on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for > developers). > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya > > -----Original Message----- > From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> > Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke > Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 > To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> > Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or > PHP. > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
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_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- “The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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draughts i meant On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I was about to suggest something more challenging that really pushed the limits of the language like a sudoku solver. Or rudimentary draughs
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, so everyone is scared sh!$ of coming up with a sample problem.... here is a sample problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- start.
Input form: collect personal data: name, date of birth, photo, place of birth and two upload fields, a photo and a .doc short description.
Output. 1: An ID design in PNG format with all these inbuilt... (forget fancy layout, just the elements positioned in a single .png file.
end. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ evaluation: =>lines of code: =>external libraried (reinventing the wheel) =>clarity of the design. => maintainability...
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in particular languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer grain along which to work on.)
The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was originally written in PHP but development was ditched mid-way when the going really became uncomfortable and the project had to be restarted in Python. The same applies to RoR.
Martin.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
That is precisely what i am suggesting.
As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves?
On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Peter,
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote:
Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit stronger. But this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket list.
Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these questions to @Dennis and @Martin:
1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or general, that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less effort that PHP to do the same thing?
I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, the admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client side scripts (javascript).
2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using 10s LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit more detailed example?
@Rad
Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no?
I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from your perspective.
Martin.
-- "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ 0x ]
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: > > Well, > > @Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at > the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you use. I > will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is almost > entirely a factor of: > > 1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated tool(s), > 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you decide > to approach it in its earliest stages. > > There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at > this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't forget > the two premises above. > > What you should understand is that language choices have never been > rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the time, we > have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there are > better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge Python > shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M (yeah that is right) as the main > platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a syntax > which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The idea was > to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The software > development market place works in more or less same fashion. > > I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome > applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress / Flickr > / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point is that > it takes *A LOT LESS effort* to do so in other languages and tools for > average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort of got > lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet money that > if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances are high > that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as an > extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++ executing as an Apache > module for reasons of performance. > > Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers to not write more code > in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a decision > not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it is > Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends program in > V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes ....... > > <offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are > degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other compilers are > either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The Windows > program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' programming will > be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on UNIX > (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version of UNIX > called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic> > > Martin. > > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with Martin >> + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a bad >> workman blames his tools. >> >> I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few cases >> I can explore. >> >> [1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in >> the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for the >> students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. It was >> written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It worked. It >> was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web >> functionality was requested by the teachers. >> >> [2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. It >> works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use Facebook on >> account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. >> Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer at >> Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the language >> would be sacrificed on account of the exposure. >> >> [3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP >> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti... >> >> My point is that there is more to software development than choice >> of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case that >> UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, desktop battle >> is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software developers often >> get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool to use >> for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to solve a >> problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is built on. >> They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in Kenya, they >> are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more sense to >> use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if it runs >> on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning curve for >> developers). >> >> >> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> >> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke >> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 >> To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or >> PHP. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
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-- “The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”
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That is fine, have never had an interest in Sudoku but I can learn the rules. Draughts on the other hand is more familiar. The problem proposed by @Collins look more appealing since it is something most people can identify with. I might be wrong. Martin. On 6/27/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
draughts i meant
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I was about to suggest something more challenging that really pushed the limits of the language like a sudoku solver. Or rudimentary draughs
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, so everyone is scared sh!$ of coming up with a sample problem.... here is a sample problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- start.
Input form: collect personal data: name, date of birth, photo, place of birth and two upload fields, a photo and a .doc short description.
Output. 1: An ID design in PNG format with all these inbuilt... (forget fancy layout, just the elements positioned in a single .png file.
end. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ evaluation: =>lines of code: =>external libraried (reinventing the wheel) =>clarity of the design. => maintainability...
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in particular languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer grain along which to work on.)
The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was originally written in PHP but development was ditched mid-way when the going really became uncomfortable and the project had to be restarted in Python. The same applies to RoR.
Martin.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
That is precisely what i am suggesting.
As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves?
On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Peter,
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote: > > Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn > Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit > stronger. But > this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket > list. > > Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these > questions to @Dennis and @Martin: > > 1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice > between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or > general, > that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less > effort that > PHP to do the same thing?
I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, the admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client side scripts (javascript).
> > 2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using > 10s > LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit > more > detailed example? > @Rad
Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no?
> > I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you > to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from > your > perspective. > > >
Martin.
-- "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ 0x ]
> > > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri > <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Well, >> >> @Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at >> the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you >> use. I >> will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is >> almost >> entirely a factor of: >> >> 1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated >> tool(s), >> 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you >> decide >> to approach it in its earliest stages. >> >> There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at >> this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't >> forget >> the two premises above. >> >> What you should understand is that language choices have never been >> rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the >> time, we >> have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there >> are >> better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge >> Python >> shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M (yeah that is right) as the >> main >> platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a >> syntax >> which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The >> idea was >> to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The >> software >> development market place works in more or less same fashion. >> >> I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome >> applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress >> / Flickr >> / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point >> is that >> it takes *A LOT LESS effort* to do so in other languages and tools >> for >> average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort >> of got >> lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet >> money that >> if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances >> are high >> that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as >> an >> extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++ executing as an >> Apache >> module for reasons of performance. >> >> Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers to not write more code >> in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a >> decision >> not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it >> is >> Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends >> program in >> V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes >> ....... >> >> <offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are >> degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other >> compilers are >> either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The >> Windows >> program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' >> programming will >> be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on >> UNIX >> (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version >> of UNIX >> called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic> >> >> Martin. >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with >>> Martin >>> + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a >>> bad >>> workman blames his tools. >>> >>> I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few >>> cases >>> I can explore. >>> >>> [1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in >>> the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for >>> the >>> students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. >>> It was >>> written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It >>> worked. It >>> was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web >>> functionality was requested by the teachers. >>> >>> [2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. >>> It >>> works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use >>> Facebook on >>> account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. >>> Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer >>> at >>> Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the >>> language >>> would be sacrificed on account of the exposure. >>> >>> [3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP >>> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti... >>> >>> My point is that there is more to software development than choice >>> of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case >>> that >>> UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, >>> desktop battle >>> is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software >>> developers often >>> get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool >>> to use >>> for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to >>> solve a >>> problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is >>> built on. >>> They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in >>> Kenya, they >>> are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more >>> sense to >>> use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if >>> it runs >>> on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning >>> curve for >>> developers). >>> >>> >>> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> >>> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke >>> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 >>> To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or >>> PHP. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Skunkworks mailing list >>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Skunkworks mailing list >>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > > > -- > Regards, > Peter Karunyu > ------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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-- “The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”
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Reading .doc files from PHP is a real pain! I hope Python has an easier way of doing it. On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
That is fine, have never had an interest in Sudoku but I can learn the rules. Draughts on the other hand is more familiar.
The problem proposed by @Collins look more appealing since it is something most people can identify with. I might be wrong.
Martin.
On 6/27/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
draughts i meant
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I was about to suggest something more challenging that really pushed the limits of the language like a sudoku solver. Or rudimentary draughs
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com
wrote:
Ok, so everyone is scared sh!$ of coming up with a sample problem.... here is a sample problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- start.
Input form: collect personal data: name, date of birth, photo, place of birth and two upload fields, a photo and a .doc short description.
Output. 1: An ID design in PNG format with all these inbuilt... (forget fancy layout, just the elements positioned in a single .png file.
end.
evaluation: =>lines of code: =>external libraried (reinventing the wheel) =>clarity of the design. => maintainability...
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in particular languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer grain along which to work on.)
The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was originally written in PHP but development was ditched mid-way when the going really became uncomfortable and the project had to be restarted in Python. The same applies to RoR.
Martin.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com>
wrote:
That is precisely what i am suggesting.
As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves?
On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: > > @Peter, > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to
learn
>> Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit >> stronger. But >> this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket >> list. >> >> Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these >> questions to @Dennis and @Martin: >> >> 1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice >> between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or >> general, >> that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less >> effort that >> PHP to do the same thing? > > > I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or > less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, > the > admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client > side > scripts (javascript). > >> >> 2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using >> 10s >> LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit >> more >> detailed example? >> > @Rad > > Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with > different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, > Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no? > >> >> I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you >> to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from >> your >> perspective. >> >> >> > > Martin. > > -- > "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people > complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ > 0x ] > >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri >> <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Well, >>> >>> @Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at >>> the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you >>> use. I >>> will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is >>> almost >>> entirely a factor of: >>> >>> 1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated >>> tool(s), >>> 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you >>> decide >>> to approach it in its earliest stages. >>> >>> There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at >>> this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't >>> forget >>> the two premises above. >>> >>> What you should understand is that language choices have never been >>> rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the >>> time, we >>> have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there >>> are >>> better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge >>> Python >>> shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M (yeah that is right) as the >>> main >>> platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a >>> syntax >>> which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The >>> idea was >>> to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The >>> software >>> development market place works in more or less same fashion. >>> >>> I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome >>> applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress >>> / Flickr >>> / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point >>> is that >>> it takes *A LOT LESS effort* to do so in other languages and tools >>> for >>> average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort >>> of got >>> lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet >>> money that >>> if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances >>> are high >>> that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as >>> an >>> extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++ executing as an >>> Apache >>> module for reasons of performance. >>> >>> Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers to not write more code >>> in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a >>> decision >>> not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it >>> is >>> Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends >>> program in >>> V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes >>> ....... >>> >>> <offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are >>> degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other >>> compilers are >>> either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The >>> Windows >>> program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' >>> programming will >>> be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on >>> UNIX >>> (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version >>> of UNIX >>> called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic> >>> >>> Martin. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with >>>> Martin >>>> + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a >>>> bad >>>> workman blames his tools. >>>> >>>> I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few >>>> cases >>>> I can explore. >>>> >>>> [1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in >>>> the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for >>>> the >>>> students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. >>>> It was >>>> written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It >>>> worked. It >>>> was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web >>>> functionality was requested by the teachers. >>>> >>>> [2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. >>>> It >>>> works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use >>>> Facebook on >>>> account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. >>>> Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer >>>> at >>>> Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the >>>> language >>>> would be sacrificed on account of the exposure. >>>> >>>> [3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP >>>> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti... >>>> >>>> My point is that there is more to software development than choice >>>> of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case >>>> that >>>> UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, >>>> desktop battle >>>> is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software >>>> developers often >>>> get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool >>>> to use >>>> for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to >>>> solve a >>>> problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is >>>> built on. >>>> They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in >>>> Kenya, they >>>> are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more >>>> sense to >>>> use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if >>>> it runs >>>> on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning >>>> curve for >>>> developers). >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> >>>> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke >>>> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 >>>> To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>>> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>>> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or >>>> PHP. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Skunkworks mailing list >>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Regards, >> Peter Karunyu >> ------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- “The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
had to get in... http://www.scriptol.com/programming/fibonacci.php many creators of programming languages design the new language to excel in a particular domain that they are particularly interested in. Juxtapose this against a rhino charge competitor who needs a 4x4 vehicle with bigger wheels, lower gear ratios and shorter chassis. The vehicle would excel in the trenches at Lukenya but lag on the highway. This also happens with software and platform choices. We have a solution that has a php/c# web frontend, a java backend, a vb.netdesktop and a python API engine. Why? because depending on the task, it was the easier and faster choice. Period. So our development team uses a matrix based on skillset / time available to deliver highly customized solutions to different vertical markets. Barikiwa On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote:
Reading .doc files from PHP is a real pain! I hope Python has an easier way of doing it.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com
wrote:
That is fine, have never had an interest in Sudoku but I can learn the rules. Draughts on the other hand is more familiar.
The problem proposed by @Collins look more appealing since it is something most people can identify with. I might be wrong.
Martin.
On 6/27/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
draughts i meant
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I was about to suggest something more challenging that really pushed the limits of the language like a sudoku solver. Or rudimentary draughs
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Collins Areba < arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, so everyone is scared sh!$ of coming up with a sample problem.... here is a sample problem.
start.
Input form: collect personal data: name, date of birth, photo, place of birth and two upload fields, a photo and a .doc short description.
Output. 1: An ID design in PNG format with all these inbuilt... (forget fancy layout, just the elements positioned in a single .png file.
end.
evaluation: =>lines of code: =>external libraried (reinventing the wheel) =>clarity of the design. => maintainability...
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in particular languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer grain along which to work on.)
The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was originally written in PHP but development was ditched mid-way when
the
going really became uncomfortable and the project had to be restarted in Python. The same applies to RoR.
Martin.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote: > > That is precisely what i am suggesting. > > As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have > application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't > productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves? > > On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> @Peter, >> >> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com
>> wrote: >>> >>> Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn >>> Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit >>> stronger. But >>> this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket >>> list. >>> >>> Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these >>> questions to @Dennis and @Martin: >>> >>> 1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice >>> between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or >>> general, >>> that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less >>> effort that >>> PHP to do the same thing? >> >> >> I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or >> less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, >> the >> admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client >> side >> scripts (javascript). >> >>> >>> 2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using >>> 10s >>> LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit >>> more >>> detailed example? >>> >> @Rad >> >> Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with >> different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, >> Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no? >> >>> >>> I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you >>> to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from >>> your >>> perspective. >>> >>> >>> >> >> Martin. >> >> -- >> "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people >> complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ >> 0x ] >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri >>> <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well, >>>> >>>> @Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at >>>> the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you >>>> use. I >>>> will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is >>>> almost >>>> entirely a factor of: >>>> >>>> 1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated >>>> tool(s), >>>> 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you >>>> decide >>>> to approach it in its earliest stages. >>>> >>>> There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at >>>> this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't >>>> forget >>>> the two premises above. >>>> >>>> What you should understand is that language choices have never been >>>> rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the >>>> time, we >>>> have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there >>>> are >>>> better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge >>>> Python >>>> shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M (yeah that is right) as the >>>> main >>>> platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a >>>> syntax >>>> which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The >>>> idea was >>>> to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The >>>> software >>>> development market place works in more or less same fashion. >>>> >>>> I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome >>>> applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress >>>> / Flickr >>>> / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point >>>> is that >>>> it takes *A LOT LESS effort* to do so in other languages and tools >>>> for >>>> average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort >>>> of got >>>> lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet >>>> money that >>>> if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances >>>> are high >>>> that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as >>>> an >>>> extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++ executing as an >>>> Apache >>>> module for reasons of performance. >>>> >>>> Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers to not write more code >>>> in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a >>>> decision >>>> not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it >>>> is >>>> Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends >>>> program in >>>> V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes >>>> ....... >>>> >>>> <offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are >>>> degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other >>>> compilers are >>>> either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The >>>> Windows >>>> program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' >>>> programming will >>>> be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on >>>> UNIX >>>> (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version >>>> of UNIX >>>> called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic> >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with >>>>> Martin >>>>> + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a >>>>> bad >>>>> workman blames his tools. >>>>> >>>>> I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few >>>>> cases >>>>> I can explore. >>>>> >>>>> [1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in >>>>> the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for >>>>> the >>>>> students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. >>>>> It was >>>>> written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It >>>>> worked. It >>>>> was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web >>>>> functionality was requested by the teachers. >>>>> >>>>> [2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. >>>>> It >>>>> works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use >>>>> Facebook on >>>>> account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. >>>>> Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer >>>>> at >>>>> Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the >>>>> language >>>>> would be sacrificed on account of the exposure. >>>>> >>>>> [3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP >>>>> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti... >>>>> >>>>> My point is that there is more to software development than choice >>>>> of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case >>>>> that >>>>> UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, >>>>> desktop battle >>>>> is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software >>>>> developers often >>>>> get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool >>>>> to use >>>>> for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to >>>>> solve a >>>>> problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is >>>>> built on. >>>>> They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in >>>>> Kenya, they >>>>> are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more >>>>> sense to >>>>> use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if >>>>> it runs >>>>> on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning >>>>> curve for >>>>> developers). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> >>>>> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 >>>>> To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>>>> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or >>>>> PHP. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> Peter Karunyu >>> ------------------- >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Skunkworks mailing list >>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- “The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
I believe the more a language does for you, the slower it is, because it has to interprete your input and figure out what you wanted, that is why C is very fast and harsh. So it all depends on what you want to do, facebook went for C/C++ in the backend for speed. Python's way is python's way, not that it is any better than the others, it is just its way. However, the one thing i like and am willing to learn about python is, it is good for a developer to learn different programming syntaxes (whatever the plural is) for the sake of broadening the mind. On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 4:53 PM, ukuta ken <ukutaken@gmail.com> wrote:
had to get in...
http://www.scriptol.com/programming/fibonacci.php
many creators of programming languages design the new language to excel in a particular domain that they are particularly interested in.
Juxtapose this against a rhino charge competitor who needs a 4x4 vehicle with bigger wheels, lower gear ratios and shorter chassis. The vehicle would excel in the trenches at Lukenya but lag on the highway.
This also happens with software and platform choices. We have a solution that has a php/c# web frontend, a java backend, a vb.net desktop and a python API engine. Why? because depending on the task, it was the easier and faster choice. Period. So our development team uses a matrix based on skillset / time available to deliver highly customized solutions to different vertical markets.
Barikiwa
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com>wrote:
Reading .doc files from PHP is a real pain! I hope Python has an easier way of doing it.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Martin Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
That is fine, have never had an interest in Sudoku but I can learn the rules. Draughts on the other hand is more familiar.
The problem proposed by @Collins look more appealing since it is something most people can identify with. I might be wrong.
Martin.
On 6/27/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
draughts i meant
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I was about to suggest something more challenging that really pushed the limits of the language like a sudoku solver. Or rudimentary draughs
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Collins Areba < arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, so everyone is scared sh!$ of coming up with a sample problem.... here is a sample problem.
start.
Input form: collect personal data: name, date of birth, photo, place of birth and two upload fields, a photo and a .doc short description.
Output. 1: An ID design in PNG format with all these inbuilt... (forget fancy layout, just the elements positioned in a single .png file.
end.
evaluation: =>lines of code: =>external libraried (reinventing the wheel) =>clarity of the design. => maintainability...
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: > > @Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself > since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in > particular > languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer > grain > along which to work on.) > > The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was > originally written in PHP but development was ditched mid-way when the > going > really became uncomfortable and the project had to be restarted in > Python. > The same applies to RoR. > > Martin. > > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> That is precisely what i am suggesting. >> >> As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have >> application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't >> productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves? >> >> On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> @Peter, >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu < pkarunyu@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn >>>> Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit >>>> stronger. But >>>> this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket >>>> list. >>>> >>>> Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these >>>> questions to @Dennis and @Martin: >>>> >>>> 1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice >>>> between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or >>>> general, >>>> that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less >>>> effort that >>>> PHP to do the same thing? >>> >>> >>> I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or >>> less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, >>> the >>> admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client >>> side >>> scripts (javascript). >>> >>>> >>>> 2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using >>>> 10s >>>> LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit >>>> more >>>> detailed example? >>>> >>> @Rad >>> >>> Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with >>> different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, >>> Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no? >>> >>>> >>>> I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you >>>> to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from >>>> your >>>> perspective. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Martin. >>> >>> -- >>> "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people >>> complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ >>> 0x ] >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri >>>> <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, >>>>> >>>>> @Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at >>>>> the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you >>>>> use. I >>>>> will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is >>>>> almost >>>>> entirely a factor of: >>>>> >>>>> 1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated >>>>> tool(s), >>>>> 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you >>>>> decide >>>>> to approach it in its earliest stages. >>>>> >>>>> There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at >>>>> this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't >>>>> forget >>>>> the two premises above. >>>>> >>>>> What you should understand is that language choices have never been >>>>> rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the >>>>> time, we >>>>> have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there >>>>> are >>>>> better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge >>>>> Python >>>>> shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M (yeah that is right) as the >>>>> main >>>>> platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a >>>>> syntax >>>>> which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The >>>>> idea was >>>>> to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The >>>>> software >>>>> development market place works in more or less same fashion. >>>>> >>>>> I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome >>>>> applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress >>>>> / Flickr >>>>> / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point >>>>> is that >>>>> it takes *A LOT LESS effort* to do so in other languages and tools >>>>> for >>>>> average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort >>>>> of got >>>>> lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet >>>>> money that >>>>> if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances >>>>> are high >>>>> that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as >>>>> an >>>>> extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++ executing as an >>>>> Apache >>>>> module for reasons of performance. >>>>> >>>>> Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers to not write more code >>>>> in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a >>>>> decision >>>>> not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it >>>>> is >>>>> Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends >>>>> program in >>>>> V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes >>>>> ....... >>>>> >>>>> <offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are >>>>> degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other >>>>> compilers are >>>>> either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The >>>>> Windows >>>>> program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' >>>>> programming will >>>>> be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on >>>>> UNIX >>>>> (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version >>>>> of UNIX >>>>> called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic> >>>>> >>>>> Martin. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a >>>>>> bad >>>>>> workman blames his tools. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few >>>>>> cases >>>>>> I can explore. >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in >>>>>> the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for >>>>>> the >>>>>> students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. >>>>>> It was >>>>>> written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It >>>>>> worked. It >>>>>> was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web >>>>>> functionality was requested by the teachers. >>>>>> >>>>>> [2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. >>>>>> It >>>>>> works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use >>>>>> Facebook on >>>>>> account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. >>>>>> Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer >>>>>> at >>>>>> Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the >>>>>> language >>>>>> would be sacrificed on account of the exposure. >>>>>> >>>>>> [3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP >>>>>> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti... >>>>>> >>>>>> My point is that there is more to software development than choice >>>>>> of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case >>>>>> that >>>>>> UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, >>>>>> desktop battle >>>>>> is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software >>>>>> developers often >>>>>> get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool >>>>>> to use >>>>>> for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to >>>>>> solve a >>>>>> problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is >>>>>> built on. >>>>>> They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in >>>>>> Kenya, they >>>>>> are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more >>>>>> sense to >>>>>> use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if >>>>>> it runs >>>>>> on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning >>>>>> curve for >>>>>> developers). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> >>>>>> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 >>>>>> To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>>>>> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or >>>>>> PHP. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> Peter Karunyu >>>> ------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Skunkworks mailing list >>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- “The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”
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-- www.golavish.com - The travel and leisure www.raccuddasys.com - code Development issues
@Collins, I have actually written the PHP code to 98% solve your problem, the only thing remaining is being able to read .doc properly, it turns out that its a bit difficult... Technically, the code can read the contents of the doc, but it comes out with a lot of gibberish. Incidentally, one the best libraries I came across for reading .doc is actually written in Python... On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Frankline Chitwa <frank.chitwa@gmail.com>wrote:
I believe the more a language does for you, the slower it is, because it has to interprete your input and figure out what you wanted, that is why C is very fast and harsh. So it all depends on what you want to do, facebook went for C/C++ in the backend for speed.
Python's way is python's way, not that it is any better than the others, it is just its way. However, the one thing i like and am willing to learn about python is, it is good for a developer to learn different programming syntaxes (whatever the plural is) for the sake of broadening the mind.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 4:53 PM, ukuta ken <ukutaken@gmail.com> wrote:
had to get in...
http://www.scriptol.com/programming/fibonacci.php
many creators of programming languages design the new language to excel in a particular domain that they are particularly interested in.
Juxtapose this against a rhino charge competitor who needs a 4x4 vehicle with bigger wheels, lower gear ratios and shorter chassis. The vehicle would excel in the trenches at Lukenya but lag on the highway.
This also happens with software and platform choices. We have a solution that has a php/c# web frontend, a java backend, a vb.net desktop and a python API engine. Why? because depending on the task, it was the easier and faster choice. Period. So our development team uses a matrix based on skillset / time available to deliver highly customized solutions to different vertical markets.
Barikiwa
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com>wrote:
Reading .doc files from PHP is a real pain! I hope Python has an easier way of doing it.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Martin Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
That is fine, have never had an interest in Sudoku but I can learn the rules. Draughts on the other hand is more familiar.
The problem proposed by @Collins look more appealing since it is something most people can identify with. I might be wrong.
Martin.
On 6/27/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
draughts i meant
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I was about to suggest something more challenging that really pushed the limits of the language like a sudoku solver. Or rudimentary draughs
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Collins Areba < arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote: > > Ok, so everyone is scared sh!$ of coming up with a sample problem.... > here is a sample problem. > > >
> start. > > Input form: collect personal data: name, date of birth, photo, place of > birth and two upload fields, a photo and a .doc short description. > > Output. > 1: An ID design in PNG format with all these inbuilt... (forget fancy > layout, just the elements positioned in a single .png file. > > end. >
> evaluation: > =>lines of code: > =>external libraried (reinventing the wheel) > =>clarity of the design. > => maintainability... > > > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Chiteri > <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> @Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself >> since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in >> particular >> languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer >> grain >> along which to work on.) >> >> The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was >> originally written in PHP but development was ditched mid-way when the >> going >> really became uncomfortable and the project had to be restarted in >> Python. >> The same applies to RoR. >> >> Martin. >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> That is precisely what i am suggesting. >>> >>> As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have >>> application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't >>> productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves? >>> >>> On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> @Peter, >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu < pkarunyu@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn >>>>> Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit >>>>> stronger. But >>>>> this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket >>>>> list. >>>>> >>>>> Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these >>>>> questions to @Dennis and @Martin: >>>>> >>>>> 1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice >>>>> between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or >>>>> general, >>>>> that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less >>>>> effort that >>>>> PHP to do the same thing? >>>> >>>> >>>> I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or >>>> less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, >>>> the >>>> admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client >>>> side >>>> scripts (javascript). >>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using >>>>> 10s >>>>> LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit >>>>> more >>>>> detailed example? >>>>> >>>> @Rad >>>> >>>> Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with >>>> different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, >>>> Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you >>>>> to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from >>>>> your >>>>> perspective. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people >>>> complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ >>>> 0x ] >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri >>>>> <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, >>>>>> >>>>>> @Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at >>>>>> the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you >>>>>> use. I >>>>>> will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is >>>>>> almost >>>>>> entirely a factor of: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated >>>>>> tool(s), >>>>>> 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you >>>>>> decide >>>>>> to approach it in its earliest stages. >>>>>> >>>>>> There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at >>>>>> this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't >>>>>> forget >>>>>> the two premises above. >>>>>> >>>>>> What you should understand is that language choices have never been >>>>>> rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the >>>>>> time, we >>>>>> have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there >>>>>> are >>>>>> better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge >>>>>> Python >>>>>> shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M (yeah that is right) as the >>>>>> main >>>>>> platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a >>>>>> syntax >>>>>> which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The >>>>>> idea was >>>>>> to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The >>>>>> software >>>>>> development market place works in more or less same fashion. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome >>>>>> applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress >>>>>> / Flickr >>>>>> / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point >>>>>> is that >>>>>> it takes *A LOT LESS effort* to do so in other languages and tools >>>>>> for >>>>>> average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort >>>>>> of got >>>>>> lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet >>>>>> money that >>>>>> if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances >>>>>> are high >>>>>> that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as >>>>>> an >>>>>> extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++ executing as an >>>>>> Apache >>>>>> module for reasons of performance. >>>>>> >>>>>> Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers to not write more code >>>>>> in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a >>>>>> decision >>>>>> not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it >>>>>> is >>>>>> Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends >>>>>> program in >>>>>> V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes >>>>>> ....... >>>>>> >>>>>> <offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are >>>>>> degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other >>>>>> compilers are >>>>>> either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The >>>>>> Windows >>>>>> program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' >>>>>> programming will >>>>>> be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on >>>>>> UNIX >>>>>> (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version >>>>>> of UNIX >>>>>> called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic> >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a >>>>>>> bad >>>>>>> workman blames his tools. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few >>>>>>> cases >>>>>>> I can explore. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in >>>>>>> the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. >>>>>>> It was >>>>>>> written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It >>>>>>> worked. It >>>>>>> was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web >>>>>>> functionality was requested by the teachers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. >>>>>>> It >>>>>>> works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use >>>>>>> Facebook on >>>>>>> account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. >>>>>>> Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the >>>>>>> language >>>>>>> would be sacrificed on account of the exposure. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP >>>>>>> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My point is that there is more to software development than choice >>>>>>> of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, >>>>>>> desktop battle >>>>>>> is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software >>>>>>> developers often >>>>>>> get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool >>>>>>> to use >>>>>>> for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to >>>>>>> solve a >>>>>>> problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is >>>>>>> built on. >>>>>>> They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in >>>>>>> Kenya, they >>>>>>> are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more >>>>>>> sense to >>>>>>> use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if >>>>>>> it runs >>>>>>> on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning >>>>>>> curve for >>>>>>> developers). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> >>>>>>> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 >>>>>>> To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>>>>>> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or >>>>>>> PHP. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>>>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Peter Karunyu >>>>> ------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>>> ------------ >>>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>>> ------------ >>>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Skunkworks mailing list >>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > > > -- > “The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of > great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of > corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of > protecting corporate power against democracy” > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
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participants (10)
-
Brian Ngure -
Collins Areba -
dmbuvi＠gmail.com -
Frankline Chitwa -
gisho -
Martin Chiteri -
Peter Karunyu -
pkariuki＠gmail.com -
Rad! -
ukuta ken