On 6/27/12, Rad! <
conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
> draughts i meant
>
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Rad! <
conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I was about to suggest something more challenging that really pushed
>> the limits of the language like a sudoku solver. Or rudimentary
>> draughs
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Collins Areba <
arebacollins@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ok, so everyone is scared sh!$ of coming up with a sample problem....
>>> here is a sample problem.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> start.
>>>
>>> Input form: collect personal data: name, date of birth, photo, place of
>>> birth and two upload fields, a photo and a .doc short description.
>>>
>>> Output.
>>> 1: An ID design in PNG format with all these inbuilt... (forget fancy
>>> layout, just the elements positioned in a single .png file.
>>>
>>> end.
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> evaluation:
>>> =>lines of code:
>>> =>external libraried (reinventing the wheel)
>>> =>clarity of the design.
>>> => maintainability...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Chiteri
>>> <
martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> @Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself
>>>> since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in
>>>> particular
>>>> languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer
>>>> grain
>>>> along which to work on.)
>>>>
>>>> The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was
>>>> originally written in PHP but development was ditched mid-way when the
>>>> going
>>>> really became uncomfortable and the project had to be restarted in
>>>> Python.
>>>> The same applies to RoR.
>>>>
>>>> Martin.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <
conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That is precisely what i am suggesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have
>>>>> application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't
>>>>> productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <
martin.chiteri@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> @Peter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <
pkarunyu@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to learn
>>>>>>> Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit
>>>>>>> stronger. But
>>>>>>> this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket
>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these
>>>>>>> questions to @Dennis and @Martin:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice
>>>>>>> between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or
>>>>>>> general,
>>>>>>> that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less
>>>>>>> effort that
>>>>>>> PHP to do the same thing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or
>>>>>> less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client
>>>>>> side
>>>>>> scripts (javascript).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using
>>>>>>> 10s
>>>>>>> LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> detailed example?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> @Rad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with
>>>>>> different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP,
>>>>>> Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you
>>>>>>> to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people
>>>>>> complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++
>>>>>> 0x ]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri
>>>>>>> <
martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> @Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at
>>>>>>>> the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you
>>>>>>>> use. I
>>>>>>>> will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is
>>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>>> entirely a factor of:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated
>>>>>>>> tool(s),
>>>>>>>> 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you
>>>>>>>> decide
>>>>>>>> to approach it in its earliest stages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at
>>>>>>>> this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't
>>>>>>>> forget
>>>>>>>> the two premises above.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What you should understand is that language choices have never been
>>>>>>>> rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the
>>>>>>>> time, we
>>>>>>>> have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge
>>>>>>>> Python
>>>>>>>> shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M (yeah that is right) as the
>>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>>> platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a
>>>>>>>> syntax
>>>>>>>> which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The
>>>>>>>> idea was
>>>>>>>> to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The
>>>>>>>> software
>>>>>>>> development market place works in more or less same fashion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome
>>>>>>>> applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress
>>>>>>>> / Flickr
>>>>>>>> / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point
>>>>>>>> is that
>>>>>>>> it takes *A LOT LESS effort* to do so in other languages and tools
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort
>>>>>>>> of got
>>>>>>>> lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet
>>>>>>>> money that
>>>>>>>> if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances
>>>>>>>> are high
>>>>>>>> that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++ executing as an
>>>>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>> module for reasons of performance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers to not write more code
>>>>>>>> in either VB6 and even
VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a
>>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>>> not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends
>>>>>>>> program in
>>>>>>>> V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes
>>>>>>>> .......
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are
>>>>>>>> degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other
>>>>>>>> compilers are
>>>>>>>> either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The
>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>> program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems'
>>>>>>>> programming will
>>>>>>>> be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on
>>>>>>>> UNIX
>>>>>>>> (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version
>>>>>>>> of UNIX
>>>>>>>> called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Martin.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <
pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with
>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>> + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a
>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>> workman blames his tools.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few
>>>>>>>>> cases
>>>>>>>>> I can explore.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in
>>>>>>>>> the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later.
>>>>>>>>> It was
>>>>>>>>> written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It
>>>>>>>>> worked. It
>>>>>>>>> was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web
>>>>>>>>> functionality was requested by the teachers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP.
>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>> works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use
>>>>>>>>> Facebook on
>>>>>>>>> account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms.
>>>>>>>>> Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the
>>>>>>>>> language
>>>>>>>>> would be sacrificed on account of the exposure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP
>>>>>>>>>
http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-still-thrives
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My point is that there is more to software development than choice
>>>>>>>>> of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares,
>>>>>>>>> desktop battle
>>>>>>>>> is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software
>>>>>>>>> developers often
>>>>>>>>> get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool
>>>>>>>>> to use
>>>>>>>>> for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to
>>>>>>>>> solve a
>>>>>>>>> problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is
>>>>>>>>> built on.
>>>>>>>>> They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in
>>>>>>>>> Kenya, they
>>>>>>>>> are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more
>>>>>>>>> sense to
>>>>>>>>> use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if
>>>>>>>>> it runs
>>>>>>>>> on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning
>>>>>>>>> curve for
>>>>>>>>> developers).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Collins Areba <
arebacollins@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sender:
skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke
>>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49
>>>>>>>>> To: Skunkworks Mailing List<
skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <
skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or
>>>>>>>>> PHP.
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Peter Karunyu
>>>>>>> -------------------
>>>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> “The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of
>>> great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of
>>> corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of
>>> protecting corporate power against democracy”
>>>
>>>
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