Hi skunks/skunkettes, in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum... May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? please :) i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor. ******************* In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is normally supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS. Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized. these reports contain the following, 1. signal level of 6 best neignbours 2. signal quality\level of serving cell 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell (Sector) Now, with just the Timing Advance(TA) and Serving cell, i can tell the general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other measurements to narrow down the location ************************* The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among things. If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing, regards, Hellen
Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means 1.1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's coverage is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a 90deg beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km across that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the best though. On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita <hellenmasita@hotmail.com>wrote:
Hi skunks/skunkettes,
in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum...
May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? please :)
i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor.
******************* In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is normally supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
Mobile phones however send *Measurement reports* which are standardized.
these reports contain the following,
1. signal level of 6 best neignbours 2. signal quality\level of serving cell 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell (Sector)
Now, with just the *Timing Advance*(TA) and *Serving cell*, i can tell the general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other measurements to narrow down the location
*************************
The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among things.
*If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,*
regards,
Hellen
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Save yourself alot of time and headache and use a Geo Location Library or Api. It will handle the dirty work for you _______________________________________________ *Good judgement comes from Experience.* *Most Experience comes from Bad Judgement * _______________________________________________ * * 2011/8/22 Kinuthia Ngugi <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com>
Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means 1.1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's coverage is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a 90deg beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km across that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the best though.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita <hellenmasita@hotmail.com>wrote:
Hi skunks/skunkettes,
in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum...
May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? please :)
i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor.
******************* In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is normally supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
Mobile phones however send *Measurement reports* which are standardized.
these reports contain the following,
1. signal level of 6 best neignbours 2. signal quality\level of serving cell 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell (Sector)
Now, with just the *Timing Advance*(TA) and *Serving cell*, i can tell the general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other measurements to narrow down the location
*************************
The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among things.
*If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,*
regards,
Hellen
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Also been having same discussion with some guys on the same and how well one can narrow down to a device's location
There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and BTS etc, The solution here is common to that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations. Nways, here goes 1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three or more points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors of the location of the device. Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results will intersect at two possible vectors. which brings me to the second method 2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle between the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points of the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS stations. This should get you good reading. Steve ----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's coverage is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a 90deg beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km across that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the best though.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < hellenmasita@hotmail.com > wrote:
Hi skunks/skunkettes,
in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum...
May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? please :)
i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor.
******************* In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is normally supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized.
these reports contain the following,
1. signal level of 6 best neignbours
2. signal quality\level of serving cell 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell (Sector)
Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell the general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other measurements to narrow down the location
*************************
The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among things.
If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,
regards,
Hellen
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co..ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
? I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-) Timo. On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and BTS etc, The solution here is common to that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations.
Nways, here goes
1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three or more points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors of the location of the device. Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results will intersect at two possible vectors.
which brings me to the second method
2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle between the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points of the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS stations. This should get you good reading.
Steve
----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's coverage is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a 90deg beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km across that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the best though.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < hellenmasita@hotmail.com
wrote:
Hi skunks/skunkettes,
in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum...
May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? please :)
i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor.
******************* In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is normally supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized.
these reports contain the following,
1. signal level of 6 best neignbours
2. signal quality\level of serving cell 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell (Sector)
Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell the general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other measurements to narrow down the location
*************************
The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among things.
If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,
regards,
Hellen
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co..ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
LOL!!!! @Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your *skunk* skin<LOL> Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been present in a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics. On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
?
I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-)
Timo.
On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and BTS etc, The solution here is common to that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations.
Nways, here goes
1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three or more points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors of the location of the device. Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results will intersect at two possible vectors.
which brings me to the second method
2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle between the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points of the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS stations. This should get you good reading.
Steve
----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's coverage is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a 90deg beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km across that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the best though.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < hellenmasita@hotmail.com
wrote:
Hi skunks/skunkettes,
in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum...
May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? please :)
i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor.
******************* In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is normally supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized.
these reports contain the following,
1. signal level of 6 best neignbours
2. signal quality\level of serving cell 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell (Sector)
Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell the general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other measurements to narrow down the location
*************************
The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among things.
If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,
regards,
Hellen
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co..ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
...ok @washi, it is just that I have been called a n00b before and so I am feeling kinda shy and embarrassed and "shame-on-me" to as what this triangulation thing is all about... ...I did home economics and so perhaps the only thing I can triangulate is a samosa because it looks triangular... On 8/22/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
LOL!!!!
@Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your *skunk* skin<LOL>
Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been present in a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
?
I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-)
Timo.
On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and BTS etc, The solution here is common to that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations.
Nways, here goes
1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three or more points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors of the location of the device. Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results will intersect at two possible vectors.
which brings me to the second method
2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle between the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points of the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS stations. This should get you good reading.
Steve
----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's coverage is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a 90deg beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km across that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the best though.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < hellenmasita@hotmail.com
wrote:
Hi skunks/skunkettes,
in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum...
May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? please :)
i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor.
******************* In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is normally supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized.
these reports contain the following,
1. signal level of 6 best neignbours
2. signal quality\level of serving cell 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell (Sector)
Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell the general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other measurements to narrow down the location
*************************
The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among things.
If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,
regards,
Hellen
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co..ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
Guys don't worry about about the complexities, Its easy once you get used to the laws and properties of numbers and shapes ----- "Timothy Mutugi" <timothymutugi@gmail.com> wrote:
....ok @washi, it is just that I have been called a n00b before and so I am feeling kinda shy and embarrassed and "shame-on-me" to as what this triangulation thing is all about...
....I did home economics and so perhaps the only thing I can triangulate is a samosa because it looks triangular...
On 8/22/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
LOL!!!!
@Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your *skunk* skin<LOL>
Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been present in a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
?
I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-)
Timo.
On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and BTS etc, The solution here is common to that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations.
Nways, here goes
1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three or more points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors of the location of the device. Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results will intersect at two possible vectors.
which brings me to the second method
2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle between the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points of the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS stations. This should get you good reading.
Steve
----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's coverage is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a 90deg beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km across that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the best though.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < hellenmasita@hotmail.com
wrote:
Hi skunks/skunkettes,
in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum...
May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? please :)
i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor.
******************* In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is normally supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized.
these reports contain the following,
1. signal level of 6 best neignbours
2. signal quality\level of serving cell 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell (Sector)
Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell the general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other measurements to narrow down the location
*************************
The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among things.
If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,
regards,
Hellen
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co..ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
@steve, i agree, using just the timing advance and serving Cell may give to wide an area for estimation, but that is why i said we get some readings for 6 of the strongest neighboring cells that the mobile station can sense!!!! option 1 so far, this is what i am considering; attenuation on the air interface can be estimated using engineering models, depending on whether it is a rural or urban site, given the attenuation, can we not estimate the distance from the other cells and use this to narrow the possible location.the challenge with this idea is that most engineering models come inbuilt into specific expensive software and might not flexible to be used as stand alone option 2, About the vectors, even without the attenuation model, give that i can get the coordinates of all the sites and azimuths of the sectors(where they are pointing) of the serving cell, how about if we draw vectors and check the points of intersection and areas falling within this points. option 3 use both of the above together excuse my drawing, but see what i mean, if sites B to F are the six strongest neighbors, we could use them to narrow down the location.....
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:21:24 +0300 From: steve@sobbayi.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
Guys don't worry about about the complexities, Its easy once you get used to the laws and properties of numbers and shapes
----- "Timothy Mutugi" <timothymutugi@gmail.com> wrote:
....ok @washi, it is just that I have been called a n00b before and so I am feeling kinda shy and embarrassed and "shame-on-me" to as what this triangulation thing is all about...
....I did home economics and so perhaps the only thing I can triangulate is a samosa because it looks triangular...
On 8/22/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
LOL!!!!
@Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your *skunk* skin<LOL>
Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been present in a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
?
I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-)
Timo.
On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and BTS etc, The solution here is common to that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations.
Nways, here goes
1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three or more points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors of the location of the device. Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results will intersect at two possible vectors.
which brings me to the second method
2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle between the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points of the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS stations. This should get you good reading.
Steve
----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's coverage is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a 90deg beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km across that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the best though.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < hellenmasita@hotmail.com > wrote:
Hi skunks/skunkettes,
in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum...
May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? please :)
i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor.
******************* In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is normally supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized.
these reports contain the following,
1. signal level of 6 best neignbours
2. signal quality\level of serving cell 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell (Sector)
Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell the general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other measurements to narrow down the location
*************************
The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among things.
If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,
regards,
Hellen
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co..ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
ok sot the drawing disappeared!!! see attached for it From: hellenmasita@hotmail.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:37:37 +0300 Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM @steve, i agree, using just the timing advance and serving Cell may give to wide an area for estimation, but that is why i said we get some readings for 6 of the strongest neighboring cells that the mobile station can sense!!!! option 1 so far, this is what i am considering; attenuation on the air interface can be estimated using engineering models, depending on whether it is a rural or urban site, given the attenuation, can we not estimate the distance from the other cells and use this to narrow the possible location.the challenge with this idea is that most engineering models come inbuilt into specific expensive software and might not flexible to be used as stand alone option 2, About the vectors, even without the attenuation model, give that i can get the coordinates of all the sites and azimuths of the sectors(where they are pointing) of the serving cell, how about if we draw vectors and check the points of intersection and areas falling within this points. option 3 use both of the above together excuse my drawing, but see what i mean, if sites B to F are the six strongest neighbors, we could use them to narrow down the location.....
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:21:24 +0300 From: steve@sobbayi.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
Guys don't worry about about the complexities, Its easy once you get used to the laws and properties of numbers and shapes
----- "Timothy Mutugi" <timothymutugi@gmail.com> wrote:
....ok @washi, it is just that I have been called a n00b before and so I am feeling kinda shy and embarrassed and "shame-on-me" to as what this triangulation thing is all about...
....I did home economics and so perhaps the only thing I can triangulate is a samosa because it looks triangular...
On 8/22/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
LOL!!!!
@Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your *skunk* skin<LOL>
Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been present in a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
?
I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-)
Timo.
On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and BTS etc, The solution here is common to that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations.
Nways, here goes
1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three or more points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors of the location of the device. Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results will intersect at two possible vectors.
which brings me to the second method
2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle between the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points of the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS stations. This should get you good reading.
Steve
----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's coverage is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a 90deg beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km across that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the best though.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < hellenmasita@hotmail.com > wrote:
Hi skunks/skunkettes,
in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum...
May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? please :)
i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor.
******************* In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is normally supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized.
these reports contain the following,
1. signal level of 6 best neignbours
2. signal quality\level of serving cell 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell (Sector)
Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell the general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other measurements to narrow down the location
*************************
The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among things.
If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,
regards,
Hellen
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co..ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Maybe there is something that needs to be clear; 1. Your major interest is to pinpoint the location of a mobile device, and to do this you have two definite references, that is the timing advance obtained from the MRs sent by the mobile to the network, and the serving cell which you definitely know where it is from the co-ordinates. Now, the 6 neighbors that you get in the periodic MRs cannot be used reliably for the location purposes,why? Because they are just the best signals that a mobile is 'seeing' arranged in order of strength, so a cell could actually be seeing a very distant cell which happens to be overshooting into that location due to favourable propagation conditions (better line of site, etc etc). Note that there is no TA info about those best 6 neighbours, see 2 next for the reason. So those 6 cells will not give you reliable location info, save for knowing there locations from co-ordinates. The attenuation angle you were thinking of is admirable but very simple. Radio signals sometimes take a life of their own once launched into free space despite the best modelling. 2. A mobile only sends MRs when it's in dedicated mode, meaning that it's in an active connection. Also, a mobile can only be served by one cell at a time, so the TA information you get is only from the serving cell. IF, you want to get MRs from another cell, the mobile has to be handed over to that cell so that it becomes the current serving cell. The vectors theory mentioned above needs info from at least two cells, so if you can have a way of making the mobile handover between specific cells at your will, the triangulation effort becomes very easy. However, that is very difficult outside a lab environment; GSM has very specific algorithms on how a mobile hands over, distinct parameters are set for this. You might be wanting the mobile to hand over but it won't to do that until the right conditions are met. Note that i am taking the simplified case of a rural set-up with few known cells. In an urban set-up like Nairobi it would be confusion galore! Maybe I should ask what precision are you looking to attain, in meters? Just my thoughts. On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:40 AM, hellen masita <hellenmasita@hotmail.com>wrote:
ok sot the drawing disappeared!!! see attached for it
------------------------------ From: hellenmasita@hotmail.com
To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:37:37 +0300
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
@steve,
i agree, using just the timing advance and serving Cell may give to wide an area for estimation, but that is why i said we get some readings for 6 of the strongest neighboring cells that the mobile station can sense!!!!
*option 1* so far, this is what i am considering; attenuation on the air interface can be estimated using engineering models, depending on whether it is a rural or urban site, given the attenuation, can we not estimate the distance from the other cells and use this to narrow the possible location.the challenge with this idea is that most engineering models come inbuilt into specific expensive software and might not flexible to be used as stand alone * option 2, * About the vectors, even without the attenuation model, give that i can get the coordinates of all the sites and azimuths* *of the sectors*(where they are pointing*) of the serving cell, how about if we draw vectors and check the points of intersection and areas falling within this points*. option 3* use both of the above together
excuse my drawing, but see what i mean, if sites B to F are the six strongest neighbors, we could use them to narrow down the location.....
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:21:24 +0300 From: steve@sobbayi.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
Guys don't worry about about the complexities, Its easy once you get used to the laws and properties of numbers and shapes
----- "Timothy Mutugi" <timothymutugi@gmail.com> wrote:
....ok @washi, it is just that I have been called a n00b before and so I am feeling kinda shy and embarrassed and "shame-on-me" to as what this triangulation thing is all about...
....I did home economics and so perhaps the only thing I can triangulate is a samosa because it looks triangular...
On 8/22/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
LOL!!!!
@Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your *skunk* skin<LOL>
Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been present in a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
?
I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-)
Timo.
On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and BTS etc, The solution here is common to that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations.
Nways, here goes
1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three or more points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors of the location of the device. Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results will intersect at two possible vectors.
which brings me to the second method
2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle between the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points of the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS stations. This should get you good reading.
Steve
----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote: > Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You > can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing > advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means > 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's > coverage > is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a > 90deg > beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km > across > that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which > direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the > best > though. > > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < hellenmasita@hotmail.com > > wrote: >
> Hi skunks/skunkettes, > > in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum... > > May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? > please :) > > > > i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. > i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor. > > ******************* > In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is > normally > supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS. > > Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized. > > these reports contain the following, > >
1. signal level of 6 best neignbours > 2. signal quality\level of serving cell > 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance > (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell > (Sector) > > Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell > the > general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other > measurements to narrow down the location > > ************************* > > The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does > not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among > things. > > If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing, > > regards, > > Hellen > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co..ke > > > _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
On a related note (locating a mobile phone - not necessarily triangulation) The Hepkie system uses ordinary GSM cell phones as beacons, without modifications or any additional programs needed on the phone. The Base Unit triggers signaling from the cell phones in the coverage area so that the direction to them can be detected with the Search Unit(s). The Base Unit is fully automatic and requires no operator, and it presents a list of all cellular phones in the search area to the Search Unit. The operator of the Search Unit can search for all phones present, but can also choose to search for one or several specific phones. The phones belonging to the rescue team or are identified as not belonging to a victim can easily be excluded from the search. The system is independent of cellular network coverage and it is independent on the service providers. Field trials have showed that the possible range of detection is very large, over 10 km and that it is possible to locate buried cell phones in snow<http://hepkie.com/hepkie/field-trials/hepkie-field-trials-in-are/> with an accuracy of around 30 cm at a victim depth of 180 cm. There are also very positive results from search in collapsed buildings. http://www.mhbc.se/Classof2009/resqu/ Regards, Tito On 23 August 2011 10:04, Kinuthia Ngugi <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe there is something that needs to be clear;
1. Your major interest is to pinpoint the location of a mobile device, and to do this you have two definite references, that is the timing advance obtained from the MRs sent by the mobile to the network, and the serving cell which you definitely know where it is from the co-ordinates. Now, the 6 neighbors that you get in the periodic MRs cannot be used reliably for the location purposes,why? Because they are just the best signals that a mobile is 'seeing' arranged in order of strength, so a cell could actually be seeing a very distant cell which happens to be overshooting into
that location due to favourable propagation conditions (better line of site, etc etc). Note that there is no TA info about those best 6 neighbours, see 2 next for the reason. So those 6 cells will not give you reliable location info, save for knowing there locations from co-ordinates. The attenuation angle you were thinking of is admirable but very simple. Radio signals sometimes take a life of their own once launched into free space despite the best modelling.
2. A mobile only sends MRs when it's in dedicated mode, meaning that it's in an active connection. Also, a mobile can only be served by one cell at a time, so the TA information you get is only from the serving cell. IF, you want to get MRs from another cell, the mobile has to be handed over to that cell so that it becomes the current serving cell. The vectors theory mentioned above needs info from at least two cells, so if you can have a way of making the mobile handover between specific cells at your will, the triangulation effort becomes very easy. However, that is very difficult outside a lab environment; GSM has very specific algorithms on how a mobile hands over, distinct parameters are set for this. You might be wanting the mobile to hand over but it won't to do that until the right conditions are met.
Note that i am taking the simplified case of a rural set-up with few known cells. In an urban set-up like Nairobi it would be confusion galore! Maybe I should ask what precision are you looking to attain, in meters? Just my thoughts.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:40 AM, hellen masita <hellenmasita@hotmail.com>wrote:
ok sot the drawing disappeared!!! see attached for it
------------------------------ From: hellenmasita@hotmail.com
To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:37:37 +0300
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
@steve,
i agree, using just the timing advance and serving Cell may give to wide an area for estimation, but that is why i said we get some readings for 6 of the strongest neighboring cells that the mobile station can sense!!!!
*option 1* so far, this is what i am considering; attenuation on the air interface can be estimated using engineering models, depending on whether it is a rural or urban site, given the attenuation, can we not estimate the distance from the other cells and use this to narrow the possible location.the challenge with this idea is that most engineering models come inbuilt into specific expensive software and might not flexible to be used as stand alone * option 2, * About the vectors, even without the attenuation model, give that i can get the coordinates of all the sites and azimuths* *of the sectors*(where they are pointing*) of the serving cell, how about if we draw vectors and check the points of intersection and areas falling within this points*. option 3* use both of the above together
excuse my drawing, but see what i mean, if sites B to F are the six strongest neighbors, we could use them to narrow down the location.....
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:21:24 +0300 From: steve@sobbayi.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
Guys don't worry about about the complexities, Its easy once you get used to the laws and properties of numbers and shapes
----- "Timothy Mutugi" <timothymutugi@gmail.com> wrote:
....ok @washi, it is just that I have been called a n00b before and so I am feeling kinda shy and embarrassed and "shame-on-me" to as what this triangulation thing is all about...
....I did home economics and so perhaps the only thing I can triangulate is a samosa because it looks triangular...
On 8/22/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
LOL!!!!
@Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your *skunk* skin<LOL>
Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been present in a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
?
I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-)
Timo.
On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote: > There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and BTS > etc, The solution here is common to > that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you > understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations. > > Nways, here goes > > 1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three or > more > points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors of the > location of the device. > Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results will > intersect at two possible vectors. > > which brings me to the second method > > 2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle between > the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points of > the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS stations. > This should get you good reading. > > Steve > > ----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote: >> Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. You >> can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, timing >> advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 means >> 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's >> coverage >> is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a >> 90deg >> beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km >> across >> that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in which >> direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the >> best >> though. >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < hellenmasita@hotmail.com >> > wrote: >> > > > >> Hi skunks/skunkettes, >> >> in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum... >> >> May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper hand???? >> please :) >> >> >> >> i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile phone. >> i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the floor. >> >> ******************* >> In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is >> normally >> supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS. >> >> Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized. >> >> these reports contain the following, >> >> > > 1. signal level of 6 best neignbours >> 2. signal quality\level of serving cell >> 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance >> (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell >> (Sector) >> >> Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell >> the >> general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other >> measurements to narrow down the location >> >> ************************* >> >> The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that does >> not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among >> things. >> >> If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing, >> >> regards, >> >> Hellen >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co..ke >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
>> Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Yes Hellen, What precision are you looking at? in 3G, Its equivalent Timing advance is called PRACH delay contained in a RACH data frame.here you can narrow this distance further as the PRACH Delay is measured in chips. 1 chip being only 78 Metres!! By the way, I m curious to know which technology CIDs use. I have had stories that they have a beeping gadget with pin-point precision On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Njoroge Tito <titonjoroge@gmail.com>wrote:
On a related note (locating a mobile phone - not necessarily triangulation)
The Hepkie system uses ordinary GSM cell phones as beacons, without modifications or any additional programs needed on the phone. The Base Unit triggers signaling from the cell phones in the coverage area so that the direction to them can be detected with the Search Unit(s). The Base Unit is fully automatic and requires no operator, and it presents a list of all cellular phones in the search area to the Search Unit.
The operator of the Search Unit can search for all phones present, but can also choose to search for one or several specific phones. The phones belonging to the rescue team or are identified as not belonging to a victim can easily be excluded from the search.
The system is independent of cellular network coverage and it is independent on the service providers. Field trials have showed that the possible range of detection is very large, over 10 km and that it is possible to locate buried cell phones in snow<http://hepkie.com/hepkie/field-trials/hepkie-field-trials-in-are/> with an accuracy of around 30 cm at a victim depth of 180 cm. There are also very positive results from search in collapsed buildings. http://www.mhbc.se/Classof2009/resqu/
Regards, Tito
On 23 August 2011 10:04, Kinuthia Ngugi <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe there is something that needs to be clear;
1. Your major interest is to pinpoint the location of a mobile device, and to do this you have two definite references, that is the timing advance obtained from the MRs sent by the mobile to the network, and the serving cell which you definitely know where it is from the co-ordinates. Now, the 6 neighbors that you get in the periodic MRs cannot be used reliably for the location purposes,why? Because they are just the best signals that a mobile is 'seeing' arranged in order of strength, so a cell could actually be seeing a very distant cell which happens to be overshooting into
that location due to favourable propagation conditions (better line of site, etc etc). Note that there is no TA info about those best 6 neighbours, see 2 next for the reason. So those 6 cells will not give you reliable location info, save for knowing there locations from co-ordinates. The attenuation angle you were thinking of is admirable but very simple. Radio signals sometimes take a life of their own once launched into free space despite the best modelling.
2. A mobile only sends MRs when it's in dedicated mode, meaning that it's in an active connection. Also, a mobile can only be served by one cell at a time, so the TA information you get is only from the serving cell. IF, you want to get MRs from another cell, the mobile has to be handed over to that cell so that it becomes the current serving cell. The vectors theory mentioned above needs info from at least two cells, so if you can have a way of making the mobile handover between specific cells at your will, the triangulation effort becomes very easy. However, that is very difficult outside a lab environment; GSM has very specific algorithms on how a mobile hands over, distinct parameters are set for this. You might be wanting the mobile to hand over but it won't to do that until the right conditions are met.
Note that i am taking the simplified case of a rural set-up with few known cells. In an urban set-up like Nairobi it would be confusion galore! Maybe I should ask what precision are you looking to attain, in meters? Just my thoughts.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:40 AM, hellen masita <hellenmasita@hotmail.com>wrote:
ok sot the drawing disappeared!!! see attached for it
------------------------------ From: hellenmasita@hotmail.com
To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:37:37 +0300
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
@steve,
i agree, using just the timing advance and serving Cell may give to wide an area for estimation, but that is why i said we get some readings for 6 of the strongest neighboring cells that the mobile station can sense!!!!
*option 1* so far, this is what i am considering; attenuation on the air interface can be estimated using engineering models, depending on whether it is a rural or urban site, given the attenuation, can we not estimate the distance from the other cells and use this to narrow the possible location.the challenge with this idea is that most engineering models come inbuilt into specific expensive software and might not flexible to be used as stand alone * option 2, * About the vectors, even without the attenuation model, give that i can get the coordinates of all the sites and azimuths* *of the sectors*(where they are pointing*) of the serving cell, how about if we draw vectors and check the points of intersection and areas falling within this points *. option 3* use both of the above together
excuse my drawing, but see what i mean, if sites B to F are the six strongest neighbors, we could use them to narrow down the location.....
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:21:24 +0300 From: steve@sobbayi.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
Guys don't worry about about the complexities, Its easy once you get used to the laws and properties of numbers and shapes
----- "Timothy Mutugi" <timothymutugi@gmail.com> wrote:
....ok @washi, it is just that I have been called a n00b before and so I am feeling kinda shy and embarrassed and "shame-on-me" to as what this triangulation thing is all about...
....I did home economics and so perhaps the only thing I can triangulate is a samosa because it looks triangular...
On 8/22/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
LOL!!!!
@Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your *skunk* skin<LOL>
Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been present in a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
> ? > > I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very > skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-) > > Timo. > > On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote: > > There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and > BTS > > etc, The solution here is common to > > that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you > > understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations. > > > > Nways, here goes > > > > 1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three or > > more > > points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors of the > > location of the device. > > Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results will > > intersect at two possible vectors. > > > > which brings me to the second method > > > > 2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle > between > > the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points > of > > the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS > stations. > > This should get you good reading. > > > > Steve > > > > ----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can get. > You > >> can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, > timing > >> advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 > means > >> 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's > >> coverage > >> is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has a > >> 90deg > >> beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km > >> across > >> that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in > which > >> direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the > >> best > >> though. > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < > hellenmasita@hotmail.com > >> > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > >> Hi skunks/skunkettes, > >> > >> in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum... > >> > >> May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper > hand???? > >> please :) > >> > >> > >> > >> i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile > phone. > >> i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the > floor. > >> > >> ******************* > >> In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is > >> normally > >> supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS. > >> > >> Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized. > >> > >> these reports contain the following, > >> > >> > > > > 1. signal level of 6 best neignbours > >> 2. signal quality\level of serving cell > >> 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance > >> (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving cell > >> (Sector) > >> > >> Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell > >> the > >> general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other > >> measurements to narrow down the location > >> > >> ************************* > >> > >> The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that > does > >> not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among > >> things. > >> > >> If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing, > >> > >> regards, > >> > >> Hellen > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Skunkworks mailing list > >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > >> ------------ > >> Skunkworks Rules > >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > >> ------------ > >> Other services @ http://my.co..ke > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list > >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> >> Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > >> ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
how does assisted GPS work? it uses cellphone masts doesn't it? On 8/23/11, Njoroge Tito <titonjoroge@gmail.com> wrote:
On a related note (locating a mobile phone - not necessarily triangulation)
The Hepkie system uses ordinary GSM cell phones as beacons, without modifications or any additional programs needed on the phone. The Base Unit triggers signaling from the cell phones in the coverage area so that the direction to them can be detected with the Search Unit(s). The Base Unit is fully automatic and requires no operator, and it presents a list of all cellular phones in the search area to the Search Unit.
The operator of the Search Unit can search for all phones present, but can also choose to search for one or several specific phones. The phones belonging to the rescue team or are identified as not belonging to a victim can easily be excluded from the search.
The system is independent of cellular network coverage and it is independent on the service providers. Field trials have showed that the possible range of detection is very large, over 10 km and that it is possible to locate buried cell phones in snow<http://hepkie.com/hepkie/field-trials/hepkie-field-trials-in-are/> with an accuracy of around 30 cm at a victim depth of 180 cm. There are also very positive results from search in collapsed buildings. http://www.mhbc.se/Classof2009/resqu/
Regards, Tito
On 23 August 2011 10:04, Kinuthia Ngugi <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe there is something that needs to be clear;
1. Your major interest is to pinpoint the location of a mobile device, and to do this you have two definite references, that is the timing advance obtained from the MRs sent by the mobile to the network, and the serving cell which you definitely know where it is from the co-ordinates. Now, the 6 neighbors that you get in the periodic MRs cannot be used reliably for the location purposes,why? Because they are just the best signals that a mobile is 'seeing' arranged in order of strength, so a cell could actually be seeing a very distant cell which happens to be overshooting into
that location due to favourable propagation conditions (better line of site, etc etc). Note that there is no TA info about those best 6 neighbours, see 2 next for the reason. So those 6 cells will not give you reliable location info, save for knowing there locations from co-ordinates. The attenuation angle you were thinking of is admirable but very simple. Radio signals sometimes take a life of their own once launched into free space despite the best modelling.
2. A mobile only sends MRs when it's in dedicated mode, meaning that it's in an active connection. Also, a mobile can only be served by one cell at a time, so the TA information you get is only from the serving cell. IF, you want to get MRs from another cell, the mobile has to be handed over to that cell so that it becomes the current serving cell. The vectors theory mentioned above needs info from at least two cells, so if you can have a way of making the mobile handover between specific cells at your will, the triangulation effort becomes very easy. However, that is very difficult outside a lab environment; GSM has very specific algorithms on how a mobile hands over, distinct parameters are set for this. You might be wanting the mobile to hand over but it won't to do that until the right conditions are met.
Note that i am taking the simplified case of a rural set-up with few known cells. In an urban set-up like Nairobi it would be confusion galore! Maybe I should ask what precision are you looking to attain, in meters? Just my thoughts.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:40 AM, hellen masita <hellenmasita@hotmail.com>wrote:
ok sot the drawing disappeared!!! see attached for it
------------------------------ From: hellenmasita@hotmail.com
To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:37:37 +0300
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
@steve,
i agree, using just the timing advance and serving Cell may give to wide an area for estimation, but that is why i said we get some readings for 6 of the strongest neighboring cells that the mobile station can sense!!!!
*option 1* so far, this is what i am considering; attenuation on the air interface can be estimated using engineering models, depending on whether it is a rural or urban site, given the attenuation, can we not estimate the distance from the other cells and use this to narrow the possible location.the challenge with this idea is that most engineering models come inbuilt into specific expensive software and might not flexible to be used as stand alone * option 2, * About the vectors, even without the attenuation model, give that i can get the coordinates of all the sites and azimuths* *of the sectors*(where they are pointing*) of the serving cell, how about if we draw vectors and check the points of intersection and areas falling within this points*. option 3* use both of the above together
excuse my drawing, but see what i mean, if sites B to F are the six strongest neighbors, we could use them to narrow down the location.....
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:21:24 +0300 From: steve@sobbayi.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
Guys don't worry about about the complexities, Its easy once you get used to the laws and properties of numbers and shapes
----- "Timothy Mutugi" <timothymutugi@gmail.com> wrote:
....ok @washi, it is just that I have been called a n00b before and so I am feeling kinda shy and embarrassed and "shame-on-me" to as what this triangulation thing is all about...
....I did home economics and so perhaps the only thing I can triangulate is a samosa because it looks triangular...
On 8/22/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
LOL!!!!
@Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your *skunk* skin<LOL>
Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been present in a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
> ? > > I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very > skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-) > > Timo. > > On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote: > > There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on GSM and > BTS > > etc, The solution here is common to > > that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming. Hope you > > understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric transformations. > > > > Nways, here goes > > > > 1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of > > three or > > more > > points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting > > vectors of the > > location of the device. > > Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed > > results will > > intersect at two possible vectors. > > > > which brings me to the second method > > > > 2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the angle > between > > the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third points > of > > the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two BTS > stations. > > This should get you good reading. > > > > Steve > > > > ----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it > >> can get. > You > >> can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision. Normaly, > timing > >> advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS, TA 1 > means > >> 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's > >> coverage > >> is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that > >> has a > >> 90deg > >> beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like 10km > >> across > >> that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS, but in > which > >> direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All the > >> best > >> though. > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita < > hellenmasita@hotmail.com > >> > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > >> Hi skunks/skunkettes, > >> > >> in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical forum... > >> > >> May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an upper > hand???? > >> please :) > >> > >> > >> > >> i want to try and create an application for triangulating a mobile > phone. > >> i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to the > floor. > >> > >> ******************* > >> In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is > >> normally > >> supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS. > >> > >> Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are standardized. > >> > >> these reports contain the following, > >> > >> > > > > 1. signal level of 6 best neignbours > >> 2. signal quality\level of serving cell > >> 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The distance > >> (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as > >> serving cell > >> (Sector) > >> > >> Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can tell > >> the > >> general direction of a user. however i would like to use the other > >> measurements to narrow down the location > >> > >> ************************* > >> > >> The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone that > does > >> not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome among > >> things. > >> > >> If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing, > >> > >> regards, > >> > >> Hellen > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Skunkworks mailing list > >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > >> ------------ > >> Skunkworks Rules > >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > >> ------------ > >> Other services @ http://my.co..ke > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list > >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> >> Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > >> ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards, Mark Mwangi http://mwangy.posterous.com
participants (10)
-
Bogi Benga -
Dennis Kioko -
hellen masita -
James Nzomo -
Kinuthia Ngugi -
Mark Mwangi -
Njoroge Tito -
Odhiambo Washington -
Steve Obbayi -
Timothy Mutugi