From: hellenmasita@hotmail.com
To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:37:37 +0300
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
@steve,
i agree, using just the timing advance and serving Cell may give to wide an area for estimation, but that is why i said we get some readings for 6 of the strongest neighboring cells that the mobile station can sense!!!!
option 1
so far, this is what i am considering;
attenuation on the air interface can be estimated using engineering models, depending on whether it is a rural or urban site, given the attenuation, can we not estimate the distance from the other cells and use this to narrow the possible location.the challenge with this idea is that most engineering models come inbuilt into specific expensive software and might not flexible to be used as stand alone
option 2,
About the vectors, even without the attenuation model, give that i can get the coordinates of all the sites and azimuths of the sectors(where they are pointing) of the serving cell, how about if we draw vectors and check the points of intersection and areas falling within this points.
option 3
use both of the above together
excuse my drawing, but see what i mean, if sites B to F are the six strongest neighbors, we could use them to narrow down the location.....
> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:21:24 +0300
> From: steve@sobbayi.com
> To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
>
> Guys don't worry about about the complexities, Its easy once you get used to the laws and properties of numbers
> and shapes
>
>
>
> ----- "Timothy Mutugi" <timothymutugi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ....ok @washi, it is just that I have been called a n00b before and
> > so
> > I am feeling kinda shy and embarrassed and "shame-on-me" to as what
> > this triangulation thing is all about...
> >
> > ....I did home economics and so perhaps the only thing I can
> > triangulate is a samosa because it looks triangular...
> >
> > On 8/22/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > LOL!!!!
> > >
> > > @Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your
> > *skunk*
> > > skin<LOL>
> > >
> > > Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been
> > present in
> > > a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi
> > > <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > >> ?
> > >>
> > >> I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very
> > >> skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-)
> > >>
> > >> Timo.
> > >>
> > >> On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
> > >> > There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on
> > GSM and
> > >> BTS
> > >> > etc, The solution here is common to
> > >> > that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming.
> > Hope you
> > >> > understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric
> > transformations.
> > >> >
> > >> > Nways, here goes
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three
> > or
> > >> > more
> > >> > points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors
> > of the
> > >> > location of the device.
> > >> > Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results
> > will
> > >> > intersect at two possible vectors.
> > >> >
> > >> > which brings me to the second method
> > >> >
> > >> > 2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the
> > angle
> > >> between
> > >> > the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third
> > points
> > >> of
> > >> > the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two
> > BTS
> > >> stations.
> > >> > This should get you good reading.
> > >> >
> > >> > Steve
> > >> >
> > >> > ----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can
> > get.
> > >> You
> > >> >> can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision.
> > Normaly,
> > >> timing
> > >> >> advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS,
> > TA 1
> > >> means
> > >> >> 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's
> > >> >> coverage
> > >> >> is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has
> > a
> > >> >> 90deg
> > >> >> beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like
> > 10km
> > >> >> across
> > >> >> that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS,
> > but in
> > >> which
> > >> >> direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All
> > the
> > >> >> best
> > >> >> though.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita <
> > >> hellenmasita@hotmail.com
> > >> >> > wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> Hi skunks/skunkettes,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical
> > forum...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an
> > upper
> > >> hand????
> > >> >> please :)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> i want to try and create an application for triangulating a
> > mobile
> > >> phone.
> > >> >> i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to
> > the
> > >> floor.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> *******************
> > >> >> In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is
> > >> >> normally
> > >> >> supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are
> > standardized.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> these reports contain the following,
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. signal level of 6 best neignbours
> > >> >> 2. signal quality\level of serving cell
> > >> >> 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The
> > distance
> > >> >> (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving
> > cell
> > >> >> (Sector)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can
> > tell
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> general direction of a user. however i would like to use the
> > other
> > >> >> measurements to narrow down the location
> > >> >>
> > >> >> *************************
> > >> >>
> > >> >> The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone
> > that
> > >> does
> > >> >> not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome
> > among
> > >> >> things.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> regards,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Hellen
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> Skunkworks mailing list
> > >> >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> > >> >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> > >> >> ------------
> > >> >> Skunkworks Rules
> > >> >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94
> > >> >> ------------
> > >> >> Other services @ http://my.co..ke
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________ Skunkworks
> > mailing list
> > >> >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> > >> >> http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> > ------------
> > >> >> Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94
> > >> >> ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Skunkworks mailing list
> > >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> > >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> > >> ------------
> > >> Skunkworks Rules
> > >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94
> > >> ------------
> > >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > > Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
> > > Nairobi,KE
> > > +254733744121/+254722743223
> > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
> > > I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
> > > Please consider the environment before printing this email.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Skunkworks mailing list
> > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> > http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> > ------------
> > Skunkworks Rules
> > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94
> > ------------
> > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
> _______________________________________________
> Skunkworks mailing list
> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> ------------
> Skunkworks Rules
> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94
> ------------
> Other services @ http://my.co.ke
i agree, using just the timing advance and serving Cell may give to wide an area for estimation, but that is why i said we get some readings for 6 of the strongest neighboring cells that the mobile station can sense!!!!
option 1
so far, this is what i am considering;
attenuation on the air interface can be estimated using engineering models, depending on whether it is a rural or urban site, given the attenuation, can we not estimate the distance from the other cells and use this to narrow the possible location.the challenge with this idea is that most engineering models come inbuilt into specific expensive software and might not flexible to be used as stand alone
option 2,
About the vectors, even without the attenuation model, give that i can get the coordinates of all the sites and azimuths of the sectors(where they are pointing) of the serving cell, how about if we draw vectors and check the points of intersection and areas falling within this points.
option 3
use both of the above together
excuse my drawing, but see what i mean, if sites B to F are the six strongest neighbors, we could use them to narrow down the location.....
> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:21:24 +0300
> From: steve@sobbayi.com
> To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Discussion: Triangulation in GSM
>
> Guys don't worry about about the complexities, Its easy once you get used to the laws and properties of numbers
> and shapes
>
>
>
> ----- "Timothy Mutugi" <timothymutugi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ....ok @washi, it is just that I have been called a n00b before and
> > so
> > I am feeling kinda shy and embarrassed and "shame-on-me" to as what
> > this triangulation thing is all about...
> >
> > ....I did home economics and so perhaps the only thing I can
> > triangulate is a samosa because it looks triangular...
> >
> > On 8/22/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > LOL!!!!
> > >
> > > @Mutugi - if you have no idea, then it's time you shed off your
> > *skunk*
> > > skin<LOL>
> > >
> > > Anyway, the way @Obbayi, put it out, you surely need to have been
> > present in
> > > a classroom where they taught engineering mathematics.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 15:40, Timothy Mutugi
> > > <timothymutugi@gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > >> ?
> > >>
> > >> I have no idea of what is being discussed here, but it sounds very
> > >> skunk-like and highly technical...good post, keep it up:-)
> > >>
> > >> Timo.
> > >>
> > >> On 10/13/11, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
> > >> > There are two ways of doing this. Although I am not an expert on
> > GSM and
> > >> BTS
> > >> > etc, The solution here is common to
> > >> > that which I would commonly use in 2D/3D graphics programming.
> > Hope you
> > >> > understand a bit of linear algebra and geometric
> > transformations.
> > >> >
> > >> > Nways, here goes
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. The direction doesn't matter, If you can get readings of three
> > or
> > >> > more
> > >> > points as zero vectors then you can compute the resulting vectors
> > of the
> > >> > location of the device.
> > >> > Using two initial zero vectors wont work as your computed results
> > will
> > >> > intersect at two possible vectors.
> > >> >
> > >> > which brings me to the second method
> > >> >
> > >> > 2. Using your trigonometry skills, you can calculate the the
> > angle
> > >> between
> > >> > the two fixed known points of the BTS and the two possible third
> > points
> > >> of
> > >> > the resulting two triads based on the distance of at least two
> > BTS
> > >> stations.
> > >> > This should get you good reading.
> > >> >
> > >> > Steve
> > >> >
> > >> > ----- "Kinuthia Ngugi" <kinuthia.ngugi@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> Am afraid in GSM, the TA and serving cell is as narrow as it can
> > get.
> > >> You
> > >> >> can not hope to have more than half a kilometer precision.
> > Normaly,
> > >> timing
> > >> >> advance goes in units of 550m, so TA 0 means 550m form the BTS,
> > TA 1
> > >> means
> > >> >> 1..1KM, so and on. Then there is the issue of how wide a cell's
> > >> >> coverage
> > >> >> is; you could be having a BTS on a hill with an antenna that has
> > a
> > >> >> 90deg
> > >> >> beamwidth in the far field....that could mean a span of like
> > 10km
> > >> >> across
> > >> >> that field, so even if the TA tells you are 3km from the BTS,
> > but in
> > >> which
> > >> >> direction? North or South or East? such are the challenges. All
> > the
> > >> >> best
> > >> >> though.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM, hellen masita <
> > >> hellenmasita@hotmail.com
> > >> >> > wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> Hi skunks/skunkettes,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> in line with an earlier discussion on this being a technical
> > forum...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> May i call upon your help without monetary gains taking an
> > upper
> > >> hand????
> > >> >> please :)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> i want to try and create an application for triangulating a
> > mobile
> > >> phone.
> > >> >> i am at a loss on where to start....really!!! so i throw it to
> > the
> > >> floor.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> *******************
> > >> >> In a GSM network with than one vendor a proprietary software is
> > >> >> normally
> > >> >> supplied to handle their equipment including the BTS.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Mobile phones however send Measurement reports which are
> > standardized.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> these reports contain the following,
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. signal level of 6 best neignbours
> > >> >> 2. signal quality\level of serving cell
> > >> >> 3. the BTS can determine the Timing Advance of the Mobile(The
> > distance
> > >> >> (usually a range) the mobile is from the bts) as well as serving
> > cell
> > >> >> (Sector)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Now, with just the Timing Advance (TA) and Serving cell , i can
> > tell
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> general direction of a user. however i would like to use the
> > other
> > >> >> measurements to narrow down the location
> > >> >>
> > >> >> *************************
> > >> >>
> > >> >> The significance of this is that it a network can track a phone
> > that
> > >> does
> > >> >> not have a GPS. it would make phone thefts less bothersome
> > among
> > >> >> things.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If guys discuss it for a bit, i'm sure i'll find my footing,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> regards,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Hellen
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> Skunkworks mailing list
> > >> >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> > >> >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> > >> >> ------------
> > >> >> Skunkworks Rules
> > >> >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94
> > >> >> ------------
> > >> >> Other services @ http://my.co..ke
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________ Skunkworks
> > mailing list
> > >> >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> > >> >> http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> > ------------
> > >> >> Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94
> > >> >> ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Skunkworks mailing list
> > >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> > >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> > >> ------------
> > >> Skunkworks Rules
> > >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94
> > >> ------------
> > >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > > Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
> > > Nairobi,KE
> > > +254733744121/+254722743223
> > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
> > > I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
> > > Please consider the environment before printing this email.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Skunkworks mailing list
> > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> > http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> > ------------
> > Skunkworks Rules
> > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94
> > ------------
> > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
> _______________________________________________
> Skunkworks mailing list
> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
> ------------
> Skunkworks Rules
> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94
> ------------
> Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke