Pesa za sumbua roho yani....Through a WorldBank sponsorship programme, court records are now digitized
So all the talk shows about ICT and investments in KE blah, blah have boiled down to this: The above lyric is from Malaika. Kenya has no money for innovation, just lip service and people earning salaries to put forward the wonderful ideas of innovation. Go find yourself an NGO and create your human-life saving app. Watch the pitfalls. :-)
From the KICTB website:
*The judiciary leading in ICT adoption *The judiciary is leading other government agencies and ministries in adoption of ICT. This has been achieved through private-public partnerships with Google, Safaricom and other partners. Through a WorldBank sponsorship programme, court records are now digitized. The digitization process employs 200 young Kenyans in a permanent basis and has digitised 35 million records. In addition, the WorldBank donated laptops that has been given to judges. Other initiatives by the judiciary include use of Teleconferencing in the court sittings and judgments. Through a partnership with Safaricom, Judges can now have court sessions between Nairobi and Mombasa law courts without physically being present. This speeds up the process and saves time and money that would have been used travelling. The National Council for Law Reporting,Kenya ICT board, the National Assembly and Government press are now in a public private partnership with Google. The partnership sees Google digitizing all more than 5000 editions of the Kenya Gazette. The digital archive is fully searchable and is available by searching for the “Kenya Gazette” on Google Books. Google’s mission in digitizing the service is to enrich their Kenya search index.
@aki, digitized records = quick trial times + less corruption. I hope they digitize Kenyan title deeds soon On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 4:08 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
So all the talk shows about ICT and investments in KE blah, blah have boiled down to this: The above lyric is from Malaika. Kenya has no money for innovation, just lip service and people earning salaries to put forward the wonderful ideas of innovation. Go find yourself an NGO and create your human-life saving app. Watch the pitfalls. :-)
From the KICTB website:
*The judiciary leading in ICT adoption
*The judiciary is leading other government agencies and ministries in adoption of ICT. This has been achieved through private-public partnerships with Google, Safaricom and other partners. Through a WorldBank sponsorship programme, court records are now digitized. The digitization process employs 200 young Kenyans in a permanent basis and has digitised 35 million records. In addition, the WorldBank donated laptops that has been given to judges.
Other initiatives by the judiciary include use of Teleconferencing in the court sittings and judgments. Through a partnership with Safaricom, Judges can now have court sessions between Nairobi and Mombasa law courts without physically being present. This speeds up the process and saves time and money that would have been used travelling.
The National Council for Law Reporting,Kenya ICT board, the National Assembly and Government press are now in a public private partnership with Google. The partnership sees Google digitizing all more than 5000 editions of the Kenya Gazette. The digital archive is fully searchable and is available by searching for the “Kenya Gazette” on Google Books. Google’s mission in digitizing the service is to enrich their Kenya search index.
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Just pasting my reply as I'd replied to another thread. "am not going to comment much, seems while we were all asleep or thinking of innovation, Google and World Bank funding has taken a kenyan project right under our noses and is digitizing. And one can view the Kenya Gazette in Google books? Did you know this, because I can only imagine a third world country always whinning about no money ( opps, sorry money lost through well, e.g. corruption ) and therefore inviting investments through loan which the kenyan public will have to pay back for? At the same time, we are being given lip service on innovative ways to improve KE? This is pure hypocrisy! On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Humphrey Ngoiya <hngoiya@yahoo.co.uk>wrote:
@aki, digitized records = quick trial times + less corruption. I hope they digitize Kenyan title deeds soon
@aki, Ill reserve calling you a Troll to another day. Have you heard of Kenya Law Reports? On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 4:55 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Just pasting my reply as I'd replied to another thread.
"am not going to comment much, seems while we were all asleep or thinking of innovation, Google and World Bank funding has taken a kenyan project right under our noses and is digitizing. And one can view the Kenya Gazette in Google books? Did you know this, because I can only imagine a third world country always whinning about no money ( opps, sorry money lost through well, e.g. corruption ) and therefore inviting investments through loan which the kenyan public will have to pay back for? At the same time, we are being given lip service on innovative ways to improve KE? This is pure hypocrisy!
On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Humphrey Ngoiya <hngoiya@yahoo.co.uk>wrote:
@aki, digitized records = quick trial times + less corruption. I hope they digitize Kenyan title deeds soon
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-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”* ~ Alex Carey ~ Tel No: 0x2af23696
@areba, have heard of them and also aware that some of the online initiative was already online a few years ago. So where did Google and World Bank funding come from? And more importantly, why is there no Kenyan developer/software company in the process of producing an innovative digitization process? Troll, lets handle that another day. :-) On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 5:11 PM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
@aki, Ill reserve calling you a Troll to another day. Have you heard of Kenya Law Reports?
seriously @aki, just so i get it clearly, are you complaining that : a) Google and WB / IMF are providing funding instead of local entrepreneurs or b) that google and WB are NOT providing funding for local entrepreneurs to digitize.... On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 5:17 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@areba, have heard of them and also aware that some of the online initiative was already online a few years ago. So where did Google and World Bank funding come from? And more importantly, why is there no Kenyan developer/software company in the process of producing an innovative digitization process?
Troll, lets handle that another day. :-) On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 5:11 PM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
@aki, Ill reserve calling you a Troll to another day. Have you heard of Kenya Law Reports?
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-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”* ~ Alex Carey ~ Tel No: 0x2af23696
@Areba. Bottomline is this : *a) Google is providing a digitization platform * Who choose Google as the platform? Why has the digitization platform not been done locally and to innovative visions by local software/developer companies? *b) World Bank Funding the project :* Why is the WB funding the project? Does it mean we have no money to do it ourselves?
@ Wash, on b, I think we are stil a developing country whose level of 'sustaining' herself, can't 'materialize' unless a big brother extends an olive hand/support. I can feel your concern on this matter. On 31/05/2011, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Areba. Bottomline is this :
*a) Google is providing a digitization platform *
Who choose Google as the platform? Why has the digitization platform not been done locally and to innovative visions by local software/developer companies?
*b) World Bank Funding the project :*
Why is the WB funding the project? Does it mean we have no money to do it ourselves?
Aki, The World Bank is funding the project because we have no money. Remember our budget deficits? And organizations like the World Bank and IMF exist to do this. I think it is not only Kenya that gets World Bank and donor assistance but almost every other country in the world, be it Ireland, Turkey, Argentina. I think it is a bit naive for you to think we can do it all and fund it ourselves. We are not yet at that level or development, as much as you like to talk about local solutions. It my opinion what you talk about is almost what I would call tertiary needs, and we are yet to meet our basic needs like food and education. Don't over-analyze these things. You get frustrated by the way the world is.
My main question is this type of funding is whether it is being used to promote greater self sufficiency or increased dependency. Why did we not hear of them hiring trained Kenyan youth with appropriate skills to do the work? Or better yet providing support for a training program for sustainable skills development? On 5/31/11, Philip Musyoki <pmusyoki@gmail.com> wrote:
Aki,
The World Bank is funding the project because we have no money. Remember our budget deficits? And organizations like the World Bank and IMF exist to do this. I think it is not only Kenya that gets World Bank and donor assistance but almost every other country in the world, be it Ireland, Turkey, Argentina. I think it is a bit naive for you to think we can do it all and fund it ourselves. We are not yet at that level or development, as much as you like to talk about local solutions. It my opinion what you talk about is almost what I would call tertiary needs, and we are yet to meet our basic needs like food and education.
Don't over-analyze these things. You get frustrated by the way the world is.
-- Crystal "Naliaka" Watley Kigoni Executive Director Voices of Africa for Sustainable Development crystal@voicesofafrica.org http://www.voicesofafrica.org/ Twitter: VOA4SD Skype: crystal.naliaka Facebook group: Voices of Africa<http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_103722386364001&ap=1#%21/group.php?gid=139035902779599> Facebook cause: Voices of Africa<http://www.causes.com/causes/102634-voices-of-africa-for-sustainable-development?recruiter_id=16731206> YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/CrystalKigoni LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=20585778&trk=tab_pro> "You must be the change you wish to see" - Gandhi
To some extend you have a point @aki, But on the other hand a foreign company should have a right to introduce a solution to the market and implement it. So unless you can show me one local company that was denied this opportunity, good work google. On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 5:32 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Areba. Bottomline is this :
*a) Google is providing a digitization platform *
Who choose Google as the platform? Why has the digitization platform not been done locally and to innovative visions by local software/developer companies?
*b) World Bank Funding the project :*
Why is the WB funding the project? Does it mean we have no money to do it ourselves?
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Thank you for your insights. For me , Google just become a bit unpopular entity because it provided a platform solution to the Kenyan Govt which sidelined the local talent ( not included are data entry operators ). While the WB funding would also have gone towards creating the kind of visions and platforms that kenya needs which would involve local developers and software companies, it could have been a good start towards an innovative partnership. I think that the Min of Information, The KICTB and those who were involved in the project allocation MUST never again use the words LOCAL INNOVATION nor should they approach kenyans in the dev sector for any talk shows on such matters. They are banned from using such words in public because lip service on kenyan innovation is just that. While the winner is the kenyan public because of the digitization, more and more kenyan developers/software companies are forced to become brokers of external software to survive. This digitization project has just proved that either the World Bank does not give a cahoots on local innovation and could care less or that it did not trust local innovation, thus Google was the most likely option. Google too should have rejected the offer to be involved in any dev projects in KE, as am sure it is aware of the level of developers in the country. Either way, there should have been local consultation on the project. Me thots. :-)
@aki now i understand you. Recommended reading: Confessions of an economic hitman by John Perkins. Be under no illusions as to the objectives of the so called Brenton Woods Institutions brother..... That said, Its (sadly) an open market. On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 6:04 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for your insights. For me , Google just become a bit unpopular entity because it provided a platform solution to the Kenyan Govt which sidelined the local talent ( not included are data entry operators ). While the WB funding would also have gone towards creating the kind of visions and platforms that kenya needs which would involve local developers and software companies, it could have been a good start towards an innovative partnership.
I think that the Min of Information, The KICTB and those who were involved in the project allocation MUST never again use the words LOCAL INNOVATION nor should they approach kenyans in the dev sector for any talk shows on such matters. They are banned from using such words in public because lip service on kenyan innovation is just that.
While the winner is the kenyan public because of the digitization, more and more kenyan developers/software companies are forced to become brokers of external software to survive. This digitization project has just proved that either the World Bank does not give a cahoots on local innovation and could care less or that it did not trust local innovation, thus Google was the most likely option. Google too should have rejected the offer to be involved in any dev projects in KE, as am sure it is aware of the level of developers in the country. Either way, there should have been local consultation on the project.
Me thots. :-)
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-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”* ~ Alex Carey ~ Tel No: 0x2af23696
I think I finally understand the level of how bad the developer industry in kenya really is, in my amateur opinion : - World bank cannot be accused of trying to protect the loans given to countries, as corruption and track records of governments has more to do with this. So whatever selections take place are done with such conditions in mind. -Kenyan govt (tech sector-Min of Info, KICTB and the rest) has no money, it is flat broke when it comes to the developer/software industry and can only make show appearences or be seen with successful companies/organizations that it played no part whatsoever in. So the best attempt that the industry can expect is a BIG NOTHING!. period. Until the World Bank gives some money for projects, it really is utterly useless. Generally, these depts operate as brokers and are also passing on the culture. - The over-rated and wishful thinking of local innovation dream and syndrome is just for those who can finance it themselves. The rest 99% are barely surviving in the industry through being self innovative enough to survive in a very bad environment of pirated software, shortcuts and no access to any funds. - Borrowing money from local banks at the high rates almost makes it impossible to use the facilities. With no money to build on a successful business, any start-ups are doomed within a very short time. -In come the VC mentality, which means that your project can get off the ground. However, VCs are looking at very unique business plans and projection, it would be a very rare ocassion that something in Africa really takes off. So remains the NGO types of mentality as the final option for finding funding, again a rare thing which may last for a short period. *Gentlemen, Ladies of the KE developer world.* - How can we raise local capital? I have no answer to this because we have been left to our own means.
My only concern with this whole google digitizing government data business is in ownership of the digitized data. A week ago i tried to download map data for Nairobi from google mapmaker and lets just say the hoops they make you jump and the questions i was required to answer to access data that I had helped collate sickened me. i resorted to get it elsewhere.So does google own the kenya gazzette data or does the government? can I download any issue of the Kenya gazzette? Doesn't appear so. On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 7:44 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I finally understand the level of how bad the developer industry in kenya really is, in my amateur opinion :
- World bank cannot be accused of trying to protect the loans given to countries, as corruption and track records of governments has more to do with this. So whatever selections take place are done with such conditions in mind.
-Kenyan govt (tech sector-Min of Info, KICTB and the rest) has no money, it is flat broke when it comes to the developer/software industry and can only make show appearences or be seen with successful companies/organizations that it played no part whatsoever in. So the best attempt that the industry can expect is a BIG NOTHING!. period. Until the World Bank gives some money for projects, it really is utterly useless. Generally, these depts operate as brokers and are also passing on the culture.
- The over-rated and wishful thinking of local innovation dream and syndrome is just for those who can finance it themselves. The rest 99% are barely surviving in the industry through being self innovative enough to survive in a very bad environment of pirated software, shortcuts and no access to any funds.
- Borrowing money from local banks at the high rates almost makes it impossible to use the facilities. With no money to build on a successful business, any start-ups are doomed within a very short time.
-In come the VC mentality, which means that your project can get off the ground. However, VCs are looking at very unique business plans and projection, it would be a very rare ocassion that something in Africa really takes off. So remains the NGO types of mentality as the final option for finding funding, again a rare thing which may last for a short period.
*Gentlemen, Ladies of the KE developer world.*
- How can we raise local capital? I have no answer to this because we have been left to our own means.
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@Aki, Recommended reading - The world is flat - Thomas Friedman. Google also employs Kenyans. And please explain why "local" capital is better than any other form of capital. Kenyan companies need to rise up and become competitive in a global world, especially in delivery. I have my reservations about giving jobs to a local company,simply because its Kenyan. The company first has to prove its ability to deliver successfully, and not do a substandard job like many of the Kenyan construction companies. Being local should give it an advantage, but not the job. Regards, Tito. On 31 May 2011 19:44, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I finally understand the level of how bad the developer industry in kenya really is, in my amateur opinion :
- World bank cannot be accused of trying to protect the loans given to countries, as corruption and track records of governments has more to do with this. So whatever selections take place are done with such conditions in mind.
-Kenyan govt (tech sector-Min of Info, KICTB and the rest) has no money, it is flat broke when it comes to the developer/software industry and can only make show appearences or be seen with successful companies/organizations that it played no part whatsoever in. So the best attempt that the industry can expect is a BIG NOTHING!. period. Until the World Bank gives some money for projects, it really is utterly useless. Generally, these depts operate as brokers and are also passing on the culture.
- The over-rated and wishful thinking of local innovation dream and syndrome is just for those who can finance it themselves. The rest 99% are barely surviving in the industry through being self innovative enough to survive in a very bad environment of pirated software, shortcuts and no access to any funds.
- Borrowing money from local banks at the high rates almost makes it impossible to use the facilities. With no money to build on a successful business, any start-ups are doomed within a very short time.
-In come the VC mentality, which means that your project can get off the ground. However, VCs are looking at very unique business plans and projection, it would be a very rare ocassion that something in Africa really takes off. So remains the NGO types of mentality as the final option for finding funding, again a rare thing which may last for a short period.
*Gentlemen, Ladies of the KE developer world.*
- How can we raise local capital? I have no answer to this because we have been left to our own means.
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Kenya will take 2 years to pass such a budget - we are still trying to settle IDPs - and how easy has that gone ? When google first said they are going to check into kenya in 2007; i remember a meeting between them and Dr. Ndemo, and the world bank representative was their - and their mission was clear - information (they collect it, they peddle it - its their business) Mabbe they felt that the pace we are moving into "digitizing" was not quick enough; so they decided to do it themselves - I dont see any harm in that..
@Tito, thanks for the comment. I can really elaborate more on this thread but am going to reserve my comments and ask you to first differentiate between a goods market and a skills market. You will arrive to the same conclusion as I have and even more that while I enjoy writing the small level of coding I do and saw a vision for what KE can really achieve, it's all bollocks!. And the buck falls right at the govt doorstep for lack of , where primarily it's main focus is private sector performances brokerage services to peg growth and investments while itself has no freakin clue of even to vet for the development of high tech companies that will form the baseline for any visions. Its quite close to a marketing scam, just look at the awards given to kenyan companies that have Vision 2030 from the the KICTB site. To give you a basic idea, just take the example of e-Govt. Just as the World Bank/Google relationship made the digitization process possible with almost 200 kenyan data operators ( yeah, data entry and scanning of documents is considered a high tech affair in KE, as therefore provided employment ), the core system that needed kenyan innovation was out of reach because of one primary reason. The e-Govt sector is broke financially but full of bogus words like "innovation, skills and visions", and World Bank would only pick an international vendor to fulfill the project commitments. I'm sure the same mentality has been done with other ICT programs run by the govt, but worhtwhile looking into. Who designed the core software system for the KRA, Importers etc? So no kenyan software developer/company will ever design and implement a high level system. This is etched in stone. Try changing that, and we can then talk about how global the kenyan software deveopers can really go. As far as local capital goes, it is very important that we are able to do something about this if the industry will ever grow. Else, the only successful ones will be those who can self finance and have the ability to pull through some initial rough times. Asante. :-) On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Njoroge Tito <titonjoroge@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki,
Recommended reading - The world is flat - Thomas Friedman.
Google also employs Kenyans.
And please explain why "local" capital is better than any other form of capital.
Kenyan companies need to rise up and become competitive in a global world, especially in delivery. I have my reservations about giving jobs to a local company,simply because its Kenyan. The company first has to prove its ability to deliver successfully, and not do a substandard job like many of the Kenyan construction companies. Being local should give it an advantage, but not the job.
Regards, Tito.
Some thoughts for those who find it difficult to seperate a goods market and skills market. This is a story of Joe ( a self employed Vegetable Seller - a typical kenyan economy ) and Harry ( a self employed automotive mechanic - not many around these days ) *Monday:* Joe: Sold 20 tomatoes, 5 cabbages, 10 carrots and went home with a daily profit of Ksh 500. This was net profit, after removing transport and supply goods. Harry: Got a client who wants an engine overhaul done. Starts off by removing all the components in the engine bay. NO MONEY MADE. Has to depend on some inputs to sustain daily *Tuesday:* Joe: Sold 50 tomatoes, 10 cabbages, 50 carrots and went home with a daily profit of Ksh 1500. This was net profit, after removing transport and supply goods Harry: Still on the same engine. Now ready to use a crane to hoist the engine out. By the evening the engine is dismantled to begin the process of overhaul. NO MONEY MADE. Has to depend on some inputs to sustain daily *Wednesday:* Joe: Sold 20 tomatoes, 50 cabbages, 50 carrots and went home with a daily profit of Ksh 1500. This was net profit, after removing transport and supply goods Harry: Still on the same engine. Sends the blocks to engineers to re-bore, while buys all the parts necessary for the overhaul. Then ensure a final clean of the entire engine components, lays out everything out to start assembly. NO MONEY MADE. Has to depend on some inputs to sustain daily *Thursday:* Joe: Sold 10 tomatoes, 5 cabbages, 5 carrots and went home with a daily profit of Ksh 250. This was net profit, after removing transport and supply goods Harry: Completes assembly of the engine and now begins to put everything back together until later that night. NO MONEY MADE. Has to depend on some inputs to sustain daily *Friday:* Joe: Sold 100 tomatoes, 50 cabbages, 50 carrots and went home with a daily profit of Ksh 2500. This was net profit, after removing transport and supply goods Harry: Starts up the engine, everything is smooth, no over-heating or the rest of problems. Raises a labour cost of 25,000/- , the client will pay the full amount/balance within 5-10 days, after they are satisfied with the work done.
Aki, Quick question, how, without donor funding VC etc, do you propose to have this system up and running? There is a paper I wrote on the subject, will share with you in a while... What you are talking about is akin to sitting down with a shotgun and forcing the Mona Lisa out of Da Vinci (well, at the time, probably his Giant Crossbow, but that's neither here nor there). The Kenya ICT Board has more than one mandate. Accessibility of the KG from the early years is more important in the grand scheme of things than *who* does it, if you lok at collective good.... You can work on getting entrepreneurs in other sectors. Even then, the KG is really Kenya Government property by it's very nature, and should you feel sufficiently motivated to create such a system, why not? I'm sure the government will not frown on a local system that works.... Isn't that the purpose of the national datacenter? -- With Regards, Phares Kariuki | T: +254 734 810 802 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
@ aki Now using your anecdotal - is what some of us find it difficult to achieve... January a multi-million kenya shilling company tells you do make a program for them (or web portal). you take the specs and start working on it. you have/hire your own work force to achieve. no money yet February the specs change; they add more stuff; they want a database and comments. you put your work force to task. no money yet. but you are paying the programmers. March they want google maps added in their contact page so guys can find them. you speak/get permission from google and do that too. no money yet. April they want you to digitize some of their documents so the top managers can access them from around the world. you prepare the necessary web securities etc and add that too. no money yet. May something else added. no money yet. June, July, August, September, By December, you have a webportal to match Yahoo/MSN in features. No money yet. January next year - Time for pay. Time for a demo. Some top woman exec is not really happy about the color; You work on that too. Your invoice is delayed. February Apparently the funds are not allocated to pay you for your services..But meanwhile, they can be using the web-portal while we wait for the end of fiscal year; which comes in June. June They have used the webportal; you have changed the small issues they raised. And the CEO is transferred to another country; or the PS (if working for Gova) is shuffled by Kibaki to another ministry. August They decide that your company is too expensive and decide to look for another contractor. Or the government ministry decides that the 'webportal' is not up to international standards; the previous PS had a different view; the new PS will source for international tenders. === @ Aki And that is why.
@aki you invariably fail to appreciate a couple of things: 1: The Kenyan Identity is very fluid. Michael Joseph may even be Kenyan, or that gentleman who emigrated from australia in the seventies (or more practically the mzungu guy who worked his butt off and travelled by road from zimbabwe to nanyuki to establish what is now a multi million dollar farm. 2: Being fluid therefore means unless an empirical method of determining kenyan-ness, there are no absolutes. You may claim to be more kenyan than the asian that emigrated to build the railway but your ancestors probably got some other thong wearing natives that are more Kenyan than you... 3: That said, Kenya does not exist in isolation, you only need to look at the predicament facing the Colonel up north, or what transpired in Ivory coast. We are producers and consumers of services to and from the "NOT LOCAL".
From what i get then, you are interested in us Seeking local funds, to fund local developers, to develop applications for government so that services can be cheaper to locals..... Is it just me seeing an absurdity in this logic?
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:14 PM, ndungu stephen <ndungustephen@gmail.com>wrote:
@ aki
Now using your anecdotal - is what some of us find it difficult to achieve...
January a multi-million kenya shilling company tells you do make a program for them (or web portal). you take the specs and start working on it. you have/hire your own work force to achieve. no money yet
February
the specs change; they add more stuff; they want a database and comments. you put your work force to task. no money yet. but you are paying the programmers.
March
they want google maps added in their contact page so guys can find them. you speak/get permission from google and do that too. no money yet.
April
they want you to digitize some of their documents so the top managers can access them from around the world. you prepare the necessary web securities etc and add that too. no money yet.
May something else added. no money yet.
June, July, August, September,
By December, you have a webportal to match Yahoo/MSN in features. No money yet.
January next year - Time for pay.
Time for a demo. Some top woman exec is not really happy about the color; You work on that too. Your invoice is delayed.
February
Apparently the funds are not allocated to pay you for your services..But meanwhile, they can be using the web-portal while we wait for the end of fiscal year; which comes in June.
June
They have used the webportal; you have changed the small issues they raised. And the CEO is transferred to another country; or the PS (if working for Gova) is shuffled by Kibaki to another ministry.
August
They decide that your company is too expensive and decide to look for another contractor. Or the government ministry decides that the 'webportal' is not up to international standards; the previous PS had a different view; the new PS will source for international tenders.
=== @ Aki And that is why.
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-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”* ~ Alex Carey ~ Tel No: 0x2af23696
China has been one strong advocate and supporter of local through their censorship which bans most "Foreign"software, however, what we have in China are clones of successful ideas supported by a large user base
yes Dennis, but this is china we are talking about. even 0.05 percent VAT in china is a totally different ball game. On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Dennis Kioko <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:
China has been one strong advocate and supporter of local through their censorship which bans most "Foreign"software, however, what we have in China are clones of successful ideas supported by a large user base _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”* ~ Alex Carey ~ Tel No: 0x2af23696
Thanks for your comments. @Phares, can the govt borrow from local banks ( which rake in billions in profits anyway ) to fund its development visions? Why the World Bank? @Ndungu, points well raised. I read what its says, don't bother with any govt projects. @Brianiac, going by your first point, you mean the mzungu guy was conning locals about free fertile land and that he would bring development to the village in the form of water, education, a clinic, missionaries and roads? You're kidding me right! You mean to say that he raked in his billions while the land locals were only given the basic necessities of life and became casual labourers = did you see the connection between WB/Google/Ke e-govt project and 200 kenyans as the data clerks ? :-))) Rgds. :-)
On your question to phares, ... One word: INFLATION : - google it. onto the legitimacy of who is "Kenyan" and who is not... here is a quick one. Is a naturalized kenyan any less Kenyan than a kenyan by birth? sounds like double standards to me, exactly the same problem ailing the country. We either enforce a lock down on citizenship, and suffer the consequences, or open up knowing well the implications both short and long term. On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 8:08 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for your comments.
@Phares, can the govt borrow from local banks ( which rake in billions in profits anyway ) to fund its development visions? Why the World Bank?
@Ndungu, points well raised. I read what its says, don't bother with any govt projects.
@Brianiac, going by your first point, you mean the mzungu guy was conning locals about free fertile land and that he would bring development to the village in the form of water, education, a clinic, missionaries and roads? You're kidding me right! You mean to say that he raked in his billions while the land locals were only given the basic necessities of life and became casual labourers = did you see the connection between WB/Google/Ke e-govt project and 200 kenyans as the data clerks ? :-)))
Rgds. :-)
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-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”* ~ Alex Carey ~ Tel No: 0x2af23696
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 10:18 PM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
On your question to phares, ... One word: INFLATION : - google it.
What does the digitization project have to do with inflation? Sorry mate, have to disagree with you on this one without knowledge of specifics and that we also don't know why the govt did not take up local loans to handle such a project? You guess is as good as mine.
onto the legitimacy of who is "Kenyan" and who is not... here is a quick one. Is a naturalized kenyan any less Kenyan than a kenyan by birth? sounds like double standards to me, exactly the same problem ailing the country. We either enforce a lock down on citizenship, and suffer the consequences, or open up knowing well the implications both short and long term.
Not sure how the thread has disgressed to this discussion of who is kenyan and who, so probably we should put the discussion up for another day. But, maybe we should also ask the BPO sector in Kenya how they feel about the digitization project since they put their investments where their mouths are. Anyone on this list a BPO and would care to share some thoughts?
My last one on this: Inflation came in as an answer to "why not borrow internally to fund all those projects", there is a certain threshold beyond which borrowing internally is bad for the economy bro. Context ma broda! On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:10 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 10:18 PM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
On your question to phares, ... One word: INFLATION : - google it.
What does the digitization project have to do with inflation? Sorry mate, have to disagree with you on this one without knowledge of specifics and that we also don't know why the govt did not take up local loans to handle such a project? You guess is as good as mine.
onto the legitimacy of who is "Kenyan" and who is not... here is a quick one. Is a naturalized kenyan any less Kenyan than a kenyan by birth? sounds like double standards to me, exactly the same problem ailing the country. We either enforce a lock down on citizenship, and suffer the consequences, or open up knowing well the implications both short and long term.
Not sure how the thread has disgressed to this discussion of who is kenyan and who, so probably we should put the discussion up for another day. But, maybe we should also ask the BPO sector in Kenya how they feel about the digitization project since they put their investments where their mouths are. Anyone on this list a BPO and would care to share some thoughts?
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”* ~ Alex Carey ~ Tel No: 0x2af23696
@Areba, I too would like to know why we borrow from the World Bank and not local banks, some knowledge and specifics will enlighten us more on the intricate things. Also am hoping for some feedback from any onlist Kenyan BPO, who will probably know the real costs of a digitization exercise since it seems local developers/software companies have not been allowed anywhere near the project. Asante. :-) On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:16 PM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
My last one on this:
Inflation came in as an answer to "why not borrow internally to fund all those projects", there is a certain threshold beyond which borrowing internally is bad for the economy bro. Context ma broda!
@Aki Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not prudent for the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a shortage of credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the mwananchi. Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive to get the same debt for both SME's and individuals... And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't affect the credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are becoming more pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are forced to talk to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc.... At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local economy stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit. My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, it's that historically, the funds were misused.... On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:27 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Areba, I too would like to know why we borrow from the World Bank and not local banks, some knowledge and specifics will enlighten us more on the intricate things. Also am hoping for some feedback from any onlist Kenyan BPO, who will probably know the real costs of a digitization exercise since it seems local developers/software companies have not been allowed anywhere near the project.
Asante. :-)
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:16 PM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
My last one on this:
Inflation came in as an answer to "why not borrow internally to fund all those projects", there is a certain threshold beyond which borrowing internally is bad for the economy bro. Context ma broda!
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards, Phares Kariuki | T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
@Phares, I spent the better part of last night looking into my question i.e why govts borrow from World Bank and not local banks and the nearest answers I came across is the fact that govts borrowing from the World Bank do so below market rates as the primary reason. While kenyans are supposed to borrow from commercial banks at 14%-19%, it is possible that the World Bank lends at 4%-7% to the kenyan govt and therefore opens the system to monetary manipulation. I had no idea this is how deep we would end up on a simple thread as this one. This is probably why you do not see the digitization project sponsered by Kenya Commercial Bank, Barclays, Stanbic and the rest. There is nothing stopping the govt from using local banks to setup the e-govt digitization projects. However, what has been clearly demontsrated by the KICTB ( not sure if they processed the digitization project ) is the complete lack of confidence in our BPO and developer/software local market. And this is exactly what I've been writing all along. As long as we have to "depend" on external loans, they will have pre-conditions that no company locally can fullfill. The only pre-conditions a local company can fullfil are e.g. supply of hardware. In closing, I still stand by my views that while WB/Google/KE e-govt is a good idea, let those who were involved never use the words like innovation to preach what can be done to develop a high tech sector. Maybe if we look closely at NASA, one may understand what we really want to do in terms of incubation, funds injections by govt, etc. So we are basically back to square one, which is : empty rhetoric, VCs can save us, Brokers from the WB and many others who are inter-connected. Why did the e-Govt not use the e-govt process to spur local growth of high tech companies? On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki
Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not prudent for the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a shortage of credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the mwananchi. Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive to get the same debt for both SME's and individuals...
And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't affect the credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are becoming more pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are forced to talk to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc....
At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local economy stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit.
My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, it's that historically, the funds were misused....
Aki i totally agree with you. I believe we have local capacity both financial and technical to undertake such a project. The main issue is about interests. I suspect Wb main agenda is to increase our national debt, they have been at it again since 2003 and the idea is to have next few generations to work for them. As for google its hard to tell but am sure its one of their long term strategic moves. Question is, do we as Kenyans have long term plans for our country? On 6/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares, I spent the better part of last night looking into my question i.e why govts borrow from World Bank and not local banks and the nearest answers I came across is the fact that govts borrowing from the World Bank do so below market rates as the primary reason. While kenyans are supposed to borrow from commercial banks at 14%-19%, it is possible that the World Bank lends at 4%-7% to the kenyan govt and therefore opens the system to monetary manipulation. I had no idea this is how deep we would end up on a simple thread as this one.
This is probably why you do not see the digitization project sponsered by Kenya Commercial Bank, Barclays, Stanbic and the rest. There is nothing stopping the govt from using local banks to setup the e-govt digitization projects. However, what has been clearly demontsrated by the KICTB ( not sure if they processed the digitization project ) is the complete lack of confidence in our BPO and developer/software local market. And this is exactly what I've been writing all along. As long as we have to "depend" on external loans, they will have pre-conditions that no company locally can fullfill. The only pre-conditions a local company can fullfil are e.g. supply of hardware.
In closing, I still stand by my views that while WB/Google/KE e-govt is a good idea, let those who were involved never use the words like innovation to preach what can be done to develop a high tech sector. Maybe if we look closely at NASA, one may understand what we really want to do in terms of incubation, funds injections by govt, etc.
So we are basically back to square one, which is : empty rhetoric, VCs can save us, Brokers from the WB and many others who are inter-connected. Why did the e-Govt not use the e-govt process to spur local growth of high tech companies?
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki
Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not prudent for the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a shortage of credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the mwananchi. Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive to get the same debt for both SME's and individuals...
And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't affect the credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are becoming more pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are forced to talk to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc....
At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local economy stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit.
My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, it's that historically, the funds were misused....
@Kahugu National debt will be a constant if there is prudent use of the credit facility... We should only ask for loans when we *need* to... It's like what happened with the Mortgage Crisis in the US... Everyone blamed the bank, but the individual who took the loan should have ensured that he can pay, when he took the loan... Don't blame the world bank for increasing debt, blame the finance minister for silly fiscal policy. On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
Aki i totally agree with you. I believe we have local capacity both financial and technical to undertake such a project. The main issue is about interests. I suspect Wb main agenda is to increase our national debt, they have been at it again since 2003 and the idea is to have next few generations to work for them. As for google its hard to tell but am sure its one of their long term strategic moves. Question is, do we as Kenyans have long term plans for our country?
On 6/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares, I spent the better part of last night looking into my question i.e why govts borrow from World Bank and not local banks and the nearest answers I came across is the fact that govts borrowing from the World Bank do so below market rates as the primary reason. While kenyans are supposed to borrow from commercial banks at 14%-19%, it is possible that the World Bank lends at 4%-7% to the kenyan govt and therefore opens the system to monetary manipulation. I had no idea this is how deep we would end up on a simple thread as this one.
This is probably why you do not see the digitization project sponsered by Kenya Commercial Bank, Barclays, Stanbic and the rest. There is nothing stopping the govt from using local banks to setup the e-govt digitization projects. However, what has been clearly demontsrated by the KICTB ( not sure if they processed the digitization project ) is the complete lack of confidence in our BPO and developer/software local market. And this is exactly what I've been writing all along. As long as we have to "depend" on external loans, they will have pre-conditions that no company locally can fullfill. The only pre-conditions a local company can fullfil are e.g. supply of hardware.
In closing, I still stand by my views that while WB/Google/KE e-govt is a good idea, let those who were involved never use the words like innovation to preach what can be done to develop a high tech sector. Maybe if we look closely at NASA, one may understand what we really want to do in terms of incubation, funds injections by govt, etc.
So we are basically back to square one, which is : empty rhetoric, VCs can save us, Brokers from the WB and many others who are inter-connected. Why did the e-Govt not use the e-govt process to spur local growth of high tech companies?
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki
Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not prudent for the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a shortage of credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the mwananchi. Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive to get the same debt for both SME's and individuals...
And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't affect the credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are becoming more pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are forced to talk to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc....
At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local economy stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit.
My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, it's that historically, the funds were misused....
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards, Phares Kariuki | T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
Exactly @ phares, like the huge tens of billions we are soon going to owe china for a brand new Nuclear Power station. /:-( On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
@Kahugu
National debt will be a constant if there is prudent use of the credit facility... We should only ask for loans when we *need* to...
It's like what happened with the Mortgage Crisis in the US... Everyone blamed the bank, but the individual who took the loan should have ensured that he can pay, when he took the loan... Don't blame the world bank for increasing debt, blame the finance minister for silly fiscal policy.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
Aki i totally agree with you. I believe we have local capacity both financial and technical to undertake such a project. The main issue is about interests. I suspect Wb main agenda is to increase our national debt, they have been at it again since 2003 and the idea is to have next few generations to work for them. As for google its hard to tell but am sure its one of their long term strategic moves. Question is, do we as Kenyans have long term plans for our country?
On 6/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares, I spent the better part of last night looking into my question i.e why govts borrow from World Bank and not local banks and the nearest answers I came across is the fact that govts borrowing from the World Bank do so below market rates as the primary reason. While kenyans are supposed to borrow from commercial banks at 14%-19%, it is possible that the World Bank lends at 4%-7% to the kenyan govt and therefore opens the system to monetary manipulation. I had no idea this is how deep we would end up on a simple thread as this one.
This is probably why you do not see the digitization project sponsered by Kenya Commercial Bank, Barclays, Stanbic and the rest. There is nothing stopping the govt from using local banks to setup the e-govt digitization projects. However, what has been clearly demontsrated by the KICTB ( not sure if they processed the digitization project ) is the complete lack of confidence in our BPO and developer/software local market. And this is exactly what I've been writing all along. As long as we have to "depend" on external loans, they will have pre-conditions that no company locally can fullfill. The only pre-conditions a local company can fullfil are e.g. supply of hardware.
In closing, I still stand by my views that while WB/Google/KE e-govt is a good idea, let those who were involved never use the words like innovation to preach what can be done to develop a high tech sector. Maybe if we look closely at NASA, one may understand what we really want to do in terms of incubation, funds injections by govt, etc.
So we are basically back to square one, which is : empty rhetoric, VCs can save us, Brokers from the WB and many others who are inter-connected. Why did the e-Govt not use the e-govt process to spur local growth of high tech companies?
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki
Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not prudent for the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a shortage of credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the mwananchi. Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive to get the same debt for both SME's and individuals...
And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't affect the credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are becoming more pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are forced to talk to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc....
At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local economy stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit.
My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, it's that historically, the funds were misused....
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards,
Phares Kariuki
| T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”* ~ Alex Carey ~ Tel No: 0x2af23696
ati nuclear power? While we have not exhausted our natural reserves for energy generation! And while Germany are planning to phase theirs out? Do we even know how to get rid of the nuclear waste? Without dumping it off the Somalia coast. We cannot even get rid of our electronic waste correctly. There are misguided people in high places.. Back to topic, i have been involved in some of these Gov projects mentioned in this thread. What i see is that the drivers of these projects are always expecting something for themselves.... something that most local entrepreneurs cannot afford.. This is what china is doing.. http://www.fpif.org/reports/china_in_africa_its_still_the_governance_stupid for the west, the colonialism is still on... How do you expect countries like Britain, with a growth rate of 0.5% make money? http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=192 ./Sam On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:36 AM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote:
Exactly @ phares, like the huge tens of billions we are soon going to owe china for a brand new Nuclear Power station. /:-(
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
@Kahugu
National debt will be a constant if there is prudent use of the credit facility... We should only ask for loans when we *need* to...
It's like what happened with the Mortgage Crisis in the US... Everyone blamed the bank, but the individual who took the loan should have ensured that he can pay, when he took the loan... Don't blame the world bank for increasing debt, blame the finance minister for silly fiscal policy.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
Aki i totally agree with you. I believe we have local capacity both financial and technical to undertake such a project. The main issue is about interests. I suspect Wb main agenda is to increase our national debt, they have been at it again since 2003 and the idea is to have next few generations to work for them. As for google its hard to tell but am sure its one of their long term strategic moves. Question is, do we as Kenyans have long term plans for our country?
On 6/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares, I spent the better part of last night looking into my question i.e why govts borrow from World Bank and not local banks and the nearest answers I came across is the fact that govts borrowing from the World Bank do so below market rates as the primary reason. While kenyans are supposed to borrow from commercial banks at 14%-19%, it is possible that the World Bank lends at 4%-7% to the kenyan govt and therefore opens the system to monetary manipulation. I had no idea this is how deep we would end up on a simple thread as this one.
This is probably why you do not see the digitization project sponsered by Kenya Commercial Bank, Barclays, Stanbic and the rest. There is nothing stopping the govt from using local banks to setup the e-govt digitization projects. However, what has been clearly demontsrated by the KICTB ( not sure if they processed the digitization project ) is the complete lack of confidence in our BPO and developer/software local market. And this is exactly what I've been writing all along. As long as we have to "depend" on external loans, they will have pre-conditions that no company locally can fullfill. The only pre-conditions a local company can fullfil are e.g. supply of hardware.
In closing, I still stand by my views that while WB/Google/KE e-govt is a good idea, let those who were involved never use the words like innovation to preach what can be done to develop a high tech sector. Maybe if we look closely at NASA, one may understand what we really want to do in terms of incubation, funds injections by govt, etc.
So we are basically back to square one, which is : empty rhetoric, VCs can save us, Brokers from the WB and many others who are inter-connected. Why did the e-Govt not use the e-govt process to spur local growth of high tech companies?
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki
Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not prudent for the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a shortage of credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the mwananchi. Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive to get the same debt for both SME's and individuals...
And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't affect the credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are becoming more pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are forced to talk to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc....
At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local economy stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit.
My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, it's that historically, the funds were misused....
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards,
Phares Kariuki
| T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”*
~ Alex Carey ~
Tel No: 0x2af23696
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
@Phares- By national debt I meant how much we owe as a country to other external sources. Whether you take a personal loan or not, rich or poor, you still pay for your national debt. IMF/WB has been known to entice countries to taking cheap loans because they know their irresponsible leaders would not pay back in full. Therefore like all other banks, they own you eventually and by extension US owns you and your whole clan for generations to come. That way they can manipulate and take your country's resources as they wish. It all boils down to slavery/colonisation or how ever you concieve it. @Wachira - I will reiterate this. INTERESTS, INTERESTS, INTERESTS!! There is no money in renewable energy sources, at least not yet. But there is money in maintaining the nuclear plants, security for the nuclear plants, causing panic about the plants etc. Thats the same reason why JP Morgan decided to fund Edison and dropped Nikola Tesla, otherwise we could be having free energy, who knows On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Samuel Wachira <wachirasam@gmail.com>wrote:
ati nuclear power? While we have not exhausted our natural reserves for energy generation! And while Germany are planning to phase theirs out? Do we even know how to get rid of the nuclear waste? Without dumping it off the Somalia coast. We cannot even get rid of our electronic waste correctly.
There are misguided people in high places..
Back to topic, i have been involved in some of these Gov projects mentioned in this thread. What i see is that the drivers of these projects are always expecting something for themselves.... something that most local entrepreneurs cannot afford.. This is what china is doing.. http://www.fpif.org/reports/china_in_africa_its_still_the_governance_stupid for the west, the colonialism is still on... How do you expect countries like Britain, with a growth rate of 0.5% make money? http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=192
./Sam
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:36 AM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
Exactly @ phares, like the huge tens of billions we are soon going to owe china for a brand new Nuclear Power station. /:-(
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com>wrote:
@Kahugu
National debt will be a constant if there is prudent use of the credit facility... We should only ask for loans when we *need* to...
It's like what happened with the Mortgage Crisis in the US... Everyone blamed the bank, but the individual who took the loan should have ensured that he can pay, when he took the loan... Don't blame the world bank for increasing debt, blame the finance minister for silly fiscal policy.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
Aki i totally agree with you. I believe we have local capacity both financial and technical to undertake such a project. The main issue is about interests. I suspect Wb main agenda is to increase our national debt, they have been at it again since 2003 and the idea is to have next few generations to work for them. As for google its hard to tell but am sure its one of their long term strategic moves. Question is, do we as Kenyans have long term plans for our country?
On 6/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares, I spent the better part of last night looking into my question i.e why govts borrow from World Bank and not local banks and the nearest answers I came across is the fact that govts borrowing from the World Bank do so below market rates as the primary reason. While kenyans are supposed to borrow from commercial banks at 14%-19%, it is possible that the World Bank lends at 4%-7% to the kenyan govt and therefore opens the system to monetary manipulation. I had no idea this is how deep we would end up on a simple thread as this one.
This is probably why you do not see the digitization project sponsered by Kenya Commercial Bank, Barclays, Stanbic and the rest. There is nothing stopping the govt from using local banks to setup the e-govt digitization projects. However, what has been clearly demontsrated by the KICTB ( not sure if they processed the digitization project ) is the complete lack of confidence in our BPO and developer/software local market. And this is exactly what I've been writing all along. As long as we have to "depend" on external loans, they will have pre-conditions that no company locally can fullfill. The only pre-conditions a local company can fullfil are e.g. supply of hardware.
In closing, I still stand by my views that while WB/Google/KE e-govt is a good idea, let those who were involved never use the words like innovation to preach what can be done to develop a high tech sector. Maybe if we look closely at NASA, one may understand what we really want to do in terms of incubation, funds injections by govt, etc.
So we are basically back to square one, which is : empty rhetoric, VCs can save us, Brokers from the WB and many others who are inter-connected. Why did the e-Govt not use the e-govt process to spur local growth of high tech companies?
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki
Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not prudent for the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a shortage of credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the mwananchi. Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive to get the same debt for both SME's and individuals...
And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't affect the credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are becoming more pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are forced to talk to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc....
At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local economy stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit.
My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, it's that historically, the funds were misused....
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards,
Phares Kariuki
| T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”*
~ Alex Carey ~
Tel No: 0x2af23696
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
@Kahugu at the end of the day, the country has the option of *not* taking the debt... On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares- By national debt I meant how much we owe as a country to other external sources. Whether you take a personal loan or not, rich or poor, you still pay for your national debt. IMF/WB has been known to entice countries to taking cheap loans because they know their irresponsible leaders would not pay back in full. Therefore like all other banks, they own you eventually and by extension US owns you and your whole clan for generations to come. That way they can manipulate and take your country's resources as they wish. It all boils down to slavery/colonisation or how ever you concieve it.
@Wachira - I will reiterate this. INTERESTS, INTERESTS, INTERESTS!! There is no money in renewable energy sources, at least not yet.
But there is money in maintaining the nuclear plants, security for the nuclear plants, causing panic about the plants etc. Thats the same reason why JP Morgan decided to fund Edison and dropped Nikola Tesla, otherwise we could be having free energy, who knows
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Samuel Wachira <wachirasam@gmail.com>wrote:
ati nuclear power? While we have not exhausted our natural reserves for energy generation! And while Germany are planning to phase theirs out? Do we even know how to get rid of the nuclear waste? Without dumping it off the Somalia coast. We cannot even get rid of our electronic waste correctly.
There are misguided people in high places..
Back to topic, i have been involved in some of these Gov projects mentioned in this thread. What i see is that the drivers of these projects are always expecting something for themselves.... something that most local entrepreneurs cannot afford.. This is what china is doing.. http://www.fpif.org/reports/china_in_africa_its_still_the_governance_stupid for the west, the colonialism is still on... How do you expect countries like Britain, with a growth rate of 0.5% make money? http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=192
./Sam
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:36 AM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
Exactly @ phares, like the huge tens of billions we are soon going to owe china for a brand new Nuclear Power station. /:-(
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com>wrote:
@Kahugu
National debt will be a constant if there is prudent use of the credit facility... We should only ask for loans when we *need* to...
It's like what happened with the Mortgage Crisis in the US... Everyone blamed the bank, but the individual who took the loan should have ensured that he can pay, when he took the loan... Don't blame the world bank for increasing debt, blame the finance minister for silly fiscal policy.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
Aki i totally agree with you. I believe we have local capacity both financial and technical to undertake such a project. The main issue is about interests. I suspect Wb main agenda is to increase our national debt, they have been at it again since 2003 and the idea is to have next few generations to work for them. As for google its hard to tell but am sure its one of their long term strategic moves. Question is, do we as Kenyans have long term plans for our country?
On 6/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares, I spent the better part of last night looking into my question i.e why govts borrow from World Bank and not local banks and the nearest answers I came across is the fact that govts borrowing from the World Bank do so below market rates as the primary reason. While kenyans are supposed to borrow from commercial banks at 14%-19%, it is possible that the World Bank lends at 4%-7% to the kenyan govt and therefore opens the system to monetary manipulation. I had no idea this is how deep we would end up on a simple thread as this one.
This is probably why you do not see the digitization project sponsered by Kenya Commercial Bank, Barclays, Stanbic and the rest. There is nothing stopping the govt from using local banks to setup the e-govt digitization projects. However, what has been clearly demontsrated by the KICTB ( not sure if they processed the digitization project ) is the complete lack of confidence in our BPO and developer/software local market. And this is exactly what I've been writing all along. As long as we have to "depend" on external loans, they will have pre-conditions that no company locally can fullfill. The only pre-conditions a local company can fullfil are e.g. supply of hardware.
In closing, I still stand by my views that while WB/Google/KE e-govt is a good idea, let those who were involved never use the words like innovation to preach what can be done to develop a high tech sector. Maybe if we look closely at NASA, one may understand what we really want to do in terms of incubation, funds injections by govt, etc.
So we are basically back to square one, which is : empty rhetoric, VCs can save us, Brokers from the WB and many others who are inter-connected. Why did the e-Govt not use the e-govt process to spur local growth of high tech companies?
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
> @Aki > > Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not prudent for > the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a shortage of > credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the mwananchi. > Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive to get > the > same debt for both SME's and individuals... > > And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't affect the > credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are becoming more > pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are forced to > talk > to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc.... > > At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local economy > stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit. > > My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, it's that > historically, the funds were misused.... > > > > >
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards,
Phares Kariuki
| T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”*
~ Alex Carey ~
Tel No: 0x2af23696
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards, Phares Kariuki | T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
@Phares, Very true but would take a miracle and political saints for that to happen :) On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
@Kahugu at the end of the day, the country has the option of *not* taking the debt...
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares- By national debt I meant how much we owe as a country to other external sources. Whether you take a personal loan or not, rich or poor, you still pay for your national debt. IMF/WB has been known to entice countries to taking cheap loans because they know their irresponsible leaders would not pay back in full. Therefore like all other banks, they own you eventually and by extension US owns you and your whole clan for generations to come. That way they can manipulate and take your country's resources as they wish. It all boils down to slavery/colonisation or how ever you concieve it.
@Wachira - I will reiterate this. INTERESTS, INTERESTS, INTERESTS!! There is no money in renewable energy sources, at least not yet.
But there is money in maintaining the nuclear plants, security for the nuclear plants, causing panic about the plants etc. Thats the same reason why JP Morgan decided to fund Edison and dropped Nikola Tesla, otherwise we could be having free energy, who knows
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Samuel Wachira <wachirasam@gmail.com>wrote:
ati nuclear power? While we have not exhausted our natural reserves for energy generation! And while Germany are planning to phase theirs out? Do we even know how to get rid of the nuclear waste? Without dumping it off the Somalia coast. We cannot even get rid of our electronic waste correctly.
There are misguided people in high places..
Back to topic, i have been involved in some of these Gov projects mentioned in this thread. What i see is that the drivers of these projects are always expecting something for themselves.... something that most local entrepreneurs cannot afford.. This is what china is doing.. http://www.fpif.org/reports/china_in_africa_its_still_the_governance_stupid for the west, the colonialism is still on... How do you expect countries like Britain, with a growth rate of 0.5% make money? http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=192
./Sam
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:36 AM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
Exactly @ phares, like the huge tens of billions we are soon going to owe china for a brand new Nuclear Power station. /:-(
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com>wrote:
@Kahugu
National debt will be a constant if there is prudent use of the credit facility... We should only ask for loans when we *need* to...
It's like what happened with the Mortgage Crisis in the US... Everyone blamed the bank, but the individual who took the loan should have ensured that he can pay, when he took the loan... Don't blame the world bank for increasing debt, blame the finance minister for silly fiscal policy.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com>wrote:
Aki i totally agree with you. I believe we have local capacity both financial and technical to undertake such a project. The main issue is about interests. I suspect Wb main agenda is to increase our national debt, they have been at it again since 2003 and the idea is to have next few generations to work for them. As for google its hard to tell but am sure its one of their long term strategic moves. Question is, do we as Kenyans have long term plans for our country?
On 6/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: > @Phares, I spent the better part of last night looking into my question i.e > why govts borrow from World Bank and not local banks and the nearest answers > I came across is the fact that govts borrowing from the World Bank do so > below market rates as the primary reason. While kenyans are supposed to > borrow from commercial banks at 14%-19%, it is possible that the World Bank > lends at 4%-7% to the kenyan govt and therefore opens the system to monetary > manipulation. I had no idea this is how deep we would end up on a simple > thread as this one. > > This is probably why you do not see the digitization project sponsered by > Kenya Commercial Bank, Barclays, Stanbic and the rest. There is nothing > stopping the govt from using local banks to setup the e-govt digitization > projects. However, what has been clearly demontsrated by the KICTB ( not > sure if they processed the digitization project ) is the complete lack of > confidence in our BPO and developer/software local market. And this is > exactly what I've been writing all along. As long as we have to "depend" on > external loans, they will have pre-conditions that no company locally can > fullfill. The only pre-conditions a local company can fullfil are e.g. > supply of hardware. > > In closing, I still stand by my views that while WB/Google/KE e-govt is a > good idea, let those who were involved never use the words like innovation > to preach what can be done to develop a high tech sector. Maybe if we look > closely at NASA, one may understand what we really want to do in terms of > incubation, funds injections by govt, etc. > > So we are basically back to square one, which is : empty rhetoric, VCs can > save us, Brokers from the WB and many others who are inter-connected. Why > did the e-Govt not use the e-govt process to spur local growth of high tech > companies? > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote: > >> @Aki >> >> Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not prudent for >> the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a shortage of >> credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the mwananchi. >> Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive to get >> the >> same debt for both SME's and individuals... >> >> And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't affect the >> credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are becoming more >> pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are forced to >> talk >> to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc.... >> >> At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local economy >> stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit. >> >> My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, it's that >> historically, the funds were misused.... >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards,
Phares Kariuki
| T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”*
~ Alex Carey ~
Tel No: 0x2af23696
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards,
Phares Kariuki
| T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
I think we forget our history too fast. The Americans, The British etc are represented by the Facebooks, Googles, Nestles, Unilevers, CocaColas, BPs, Totals, and Shells operating freely in the country just like the East India company walked in through Mombasa in the name of trade. The Chinese are the smartest around in my view. Shut down any fishy foreign companies reaping a profit from your peoples data and skill. And don't apologize for it. Rhetoric about global villages and the world being flat doesn't faze me. Running to the world bank is running to the Americans. And we should stop calling them partners, they are not here to help you. not now not yesterday not ever. I use American products so this is not an anti-american tirade just saying we shouldn't be talking VC, innovation etc. We should first feed everyone with the help of tech. On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares, Very true but would take a miracle and political saints for that to happen :)
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com>wrote:
@Kahugu at the end of the day, the country has the option of *not* taking the debt...
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares- By national debt I meant how much we owe as a country to other external sources. Whether you take a personal loan or not, rich or poor, you still pay for your national debt. IMF/WB has been known to entice countries to taking cheap loans because they know their irresponsible leaders would not pay back in full. Therefore like all other banks, they own you eventually and by extension US owns you and your whole clan for generations to come. That way they can manipulate and take your country's resources as they wish. It all boils down to slavery/colonisation or how ever you concieve it.
@Wachira - I will reiterate this. INTERESTS, INTERESTS, INTERESTS!! There is no money in renewable energy sources, at least not yet.
But there is money in maintaining the nuclear plants, security for the nuclear plants, causing panic about the plants etc. Thats the same reason why JP Morgan decided to fund Edison and dropped Nikola Tesla, otherwise we could be having free energy, who knows
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Samuel Wachira <wachirasam@gmail.com>wrote:
ati nuclear power? While we have not exhausted our natural reserves for energy generation! And while Germany are planning to phase theirs out? Do we even know how to get rid of the nuclear waste? Without dumping it off the Somalia coast. We cannot even get rid of our electronic waste correctly.
There are misguided people in high places..
Back to topic, i have been involved in some of these Gov projects mentioned in this thread. What i see is that the drivers of these projects are always expecting something for themselves.... something that most local entrepreneurs cannot afford.. This is what china is doing.. http://www.fpif.org/reports/china_in_africa_its_still_the_governance_stupid for the west, the colonialism is still on... How do you expect countries like Britain, with a growth rate of 0.5% make money? http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=192
./Sam
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:36 AM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
Exactly @ phares, like the huge tens of billions we are soon going to owe china for a brand new Nuclear Power station. /:-(
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com>wrote:
@Kahugu
National debt will be a constant if there is prudent use of the credit facility... We should only ask for loans when we *need* to...
It's like what happened with the Mortgage Crisis in the US... Everyone blamed the bank, but the individual who took the loan should have ensured that he can pay, when he took the loan... Don't blame the world bank for increasing debt, blame the finance minister for silly fiscal policy.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com>wrote:
> Aki i totally agree with you. I believe we have local capacity both > financial and technical to undertake such a project. The main issue > is > about interests. I suspect Wb main agenda is to increase our national > debt, they have been at it again since 2003 and the idea is to have > next few generations to work for them. As for google its hard to tell > but am sure its one of their long term strategic moves. > Question is, do we as Kenyans have long term plans for our country? > > On 6/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: > > @Phares, I spent the better part of last night looking into my > question i.e > > why govts borrow from World Bank and not local banks and the > nearest answers > > I came across is the fact that govts borrowing from the World Bank > do so > > below market rates as the primary reason. While kenyans are > supposed to > > borrow from commercial banks at 14%-19%, it is possible that the > World Bank > > lends at 4%-7% to the kenyan govt and therefore opens the system to > monetary > > manipulation. I had no idea this is how deep we would end up on a > simple > > thread as this one. > > > > This is probably why you do not see the digitization project > sponsered by > > Kenya Commercial Bank, Barclays, Stanbic and the rest. There is > nothing > > stopping the govt from using local banks to setup the e-govt > digitization > > projects. However, what has been clearly demontsrated by the KICTB > ( not > > sure if they processed the digitization project ) is the complete > lack of > > confidence in our BPO and developer/software local market. And this > is > > exactly what I've been writing all along. As long as we have to > "depend" on > > external loans, they will have pre-conditions that no company > locally can > > fullfill. The only pre-conditions a local company can fullfil are > e.g. > > supply of hardware. > > > > In closing, I still stand by my views that while WB/Google/KE > e-govt is a > > good idea, let those who were involved never use the words like > innovation > > to preach what can be done to develop a high tech sector. Maybe if > we look > > closely at NASA, one may understand what we really want to do in > terms of > > incubation, funds injections by govt, etc. > > > > So we are basically back to square one, which is : empty rhetoric, > VCs can > > save us, Brokers from the WB and many others who are > inter-connected. Why > > did the e-Govt not use the e-govt process to spur local growth of > high tech > > companies? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> @Aki > >> > >> Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not > prudent for > >> the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a > shortage of > >> credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the > mwananchi. > >> Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive > to get > >> the > >> same debt for both SME's and individuals... > >> > >> And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't > affect the > >> credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are > becoming more > >> pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are > forced to > >> talk > >> to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc.... > >> > >> At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local > economy > >> stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit. > >> > >> My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, it's > that > >> historically, the funds were misused.... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
-- With Regards,
Phares Kariuki
| T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
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-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”*
~ Alex Carey ~
Tel No: 0x2af23696
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards,
Phares Kariuki
| T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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-- Regards, Mark Mwangi http://mwangy.posterous.com
Interesting..... On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Mark Mwangi <mwangy@gmail.com> wrote:
I think we forget our history too fast. The Americans, The British etc are represented by the Facebooks, Googles, Nestles, Unilevers, CocaColas, BPs, Totals, and Shells operating freely in the country just like the East India company walked in through Mombasa in the name of trade.
The Chinese are the smartest around in my view. Shut down any fishy foreign companies reaping a profit from your peoples data and skill. And don't apologize for it. Rhetoric about global villages and the world being flat doesn't faze me.
Running to the world bank is running to the Americans. And we should stop calling them partners, they are not here to help you. not now not yesterday not ever. I use American products so this is not an anti-american tirade just saying we shouldn't be talking VC, innovation etc.
We should first feed everyone with the help of tech.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares, Very true but would take a miracle and political saints for that to happen :)
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com>wrote:
@Kahugu at the end of the day, the country has the option of *not* taking the debt...
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com> wrote:
@Phares- By national debt I meant how much we owe as a country to other external sources. Whether you take a personal loan or not, rich or poor, you still pay for your national debt. IMF/WB has been known to entice countries to taking cheap loans because they know their irresponsible leaders would not pay back in full. Therefore like all other banks, they own you eventually and by extension US owns you and your whole clan for generations to come. That way they can manipulate and take your country's resources as they wish. It all boils down to slavery/colonisation or how ever you concieve it.
@Wachira - I will reiterate this. INTERESTS, INTERESTS, INTERESTS!! There is no money in renewable energy sources, at least not yet.
But there is money in maintaining the nuclear plants, security for the nuclear plants, causing panic about the plants etc. Thats the same reason why JP Morgan decided to fund Edison and dropped Nikola Tesla, otherwise we could be having free energy, who knows
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Samuel Wachira <wachirasam@gmail.com>wrote:
ati nuclear power? While we have not exhausted our natural reserves for energy generation! And while Germany are planning to phase theirs out? Do we even know how to get rid of the nuclear waste? Without dumping it off the Somalia coast. We cannot even get rid of our electronic waste correctly.
There are misguided people in high places..
Back to topic, i have been involved in some of these Gov projects mentioned in this thread. What i see is that the drivers of these projects are always expecting something for themselves.... something that most local entrepreneurs cannot afford.. This is what china is doing.. http://www.fpif.org/reports/china_in_africa_its_still_the_governance_stupid for the west, the colonialism is still on... How do you expect countries like Britain, with a growth rate of 0.5% make money? http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=192
./Sam
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:36 AM, [ Brainiac ] <arebacollins@gmail.com>wrote:
Exactly @ phares, like the huge tens of billions we are soon going to owe china for a brand new Nuclear Power station. /:-(
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com>wrote:
> @Kahugu > > National debt will be a constant if there is prudent use of the > credit facility... We should only ask for loans when we *need* to... > > It's like what happened with the Mortgage Crisis in the US... > Everyone blamed the bank, but the individual who took the loan should have > ensured that he can pay, when he took the loan... Don't blame the world bank > for increasing debt, blame the finance minister for silly fiscal policy. > > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Kahugu Isaac <ikahugu@gmail.com>wrote: > >> Aki i totally agree with you. I believe we have local capacity both >> financial and technical to undertake such a project. The main issue >> is >> about interests. I suspect Wb main agenda is to increase our >> national >> debt, they have been at it again since 2003 and the idea is to have >> next few generations to work for them. As for google its hard to >> tell >> but am sure its one of their long term strategic moves. >> Question is, do we as Kenyans have long term plans for our country? >> >> On 6/2/11, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: >> > @Phares, I spent the better part of last night looking into my >> question i.e >> > why govts borrow from World Bank and not local banks and the >> nearest answers >> > I came across is the fact that govts borrowing from the World Bank >> do so >> > below market rates as the primary reason. While kenyans are >> supposed to >> > borrow from commercial banks at 14%-19%, it is possible that the >> World Bank >> > lends at 4%-7% to the kenyan govt and therefore opens the system >> to monetary >> > manipulation. I had no idea this is how deep we would end up on a >> simple >> > thread as this one. >> > >> > This is probably why you do not see the digitization project >> sponsered by >> > Kenya Commercial Bank, Barclays, Stanbic and the rest. There is >> nothing >> > stopping the govt from using local banks to setup the e-govt >> digitization >> > projects. However, what has been clearly demontsrated by the KICTB >> ( not >> > sure if they processed the digitization project ) is the complete >> lack of >> > confidence in our BPO and developer/software local market. And >> this is >> > exactly what I've been writing all along. As long as we have to >> "depend" on >> > external loans, they will have pre-conditions that no company >> locally can >> > fullfill. The only pre-conditions a local company can fullfil are >> e.g. >> > supply of hardware. >> > >> > In closing, I still stand by my views that while WB/Google/KE >> e-govt is a >> > good idea, let those who were involved never use the words like >> innovation >> > to preach what can be done to develop a high tech sector. Maybe if >> we look >> > closely at NASA, one may understand what we really want to do in >> terms of >> > incubation, funds injections by govt, etc. >> > >> > So we are basically back to square one, which is : empty rhetoric, >> VCs can >> > save us, Brokers from the WB and many others who are >> inter-connected. Why >> > did the e-Govt not use the e-govt process to spur local growth of >> high tech >> > companies? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Phares Kariuki < >> pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> >> @Aki >> >> >> >> Especially in an economy that's developing like ours, it's not >> prudent for >> >> the government to take loans from the local banks. We have a >> shortage of >> >> credit, if the government borrows it's more attractive than the >> mwananchi. >> >> Reduce loans available to the citizen, and make it more expensive >> to get >> >> the >> >> same debt for both SME's and individuals... >> >> >> >> And the government does borrow from local banks, when it won't >> affect the >> >> credit available to the nation. The reason mortgages etc are >> becoming more >> >> pervasive is because the banks, to bolster their business are >> forced to >> >> talk >> >> to the individual. We now have banks offering pasha loans etc.... >> >> >> >> At the end of the day, the Government borrowing from the local >> economy >> >> stunts other sectors of the economy that depend on that credit. >> >> >> >> My problem with World Bank funding is not the funding itself, >> it's that >> >> historically, the funds were misused.... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > > -- > With Regards, > > Phares Kariuki > > | T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | > Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ | > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”*
~ Alex Carey ~
Tel No: 0x2af23696
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- With Regards,
Phares Kariuki
| T: +254 720 406 093 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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-- Regards,
Mark Mwangi
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 21:43, Mark Mwangi <mwangy@gmail.com> wrote:
I think we forget our history too fast. The Americans, The British etc are represented by the Facebooks, Googles, Nestles, Unilevers, CocaColas, BPs, Totals, and Shells operating freely in the country just like the East India company walked in through Mombasa in the name of trade.
The Chinese are the smartest around in my view. Shut down any fishy foreign companies reaping a profit from your peoples data and skill. And don't apologize for it. Rhetoric about global villages and the world being flat doesn't faze me.
I love this bit about the Chinese. The road construction company doing Thika Rd super-highway is called China Wu Yi. I am told it goes by the local name of "China woiiiiiiiiiiiii" - at the end of every project the Chinese undertake, they leave the citizen of that country crying "wuiiiiiiiii", "woiyeeee".. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
*National Debt vs Foreign debt argument.* * * *Q1: Why borrow from WB and not Kenyan Banks?* When you borrow locally, you are essentially getting money from the market, thus you are stiffing purchasing power parity. This means you are mopping money from the markets thus meaning there are more goods and no/little money. When you borrow abroad, you are immediately adding money into the economy, and run the risk of loosing more in the future through interest and loan repayment. Means more money today, less goods*.* * * *The key is, what policy the government is pursuing at that time (of borrowing). Typically, loans from abroad mature after several years, 20, 30 or even 40 years! Local commercial bank loans mature in 2, 5, 8, max 15 years. Local loans cannot be differed! This helps in checking inflation (now you understand what Areba is talking about?). * * * *A ballooning local debt is a bigger threat to GDP than a ballooning foreign debt.* *Q2: Why do we get loans from China and not WB, USA/Britain and Kenyan Banks?* The cost of borrowing is high in Kenya. Its very cheap in China. In the US and WB its relative. Now, Chinese offer cheaper technical expertise while doing the same, the WB dispenses expensive technical personnel thus inflating the cost. Think about the flopped Kenya Railways privatization by the WB. The Chinese would have built us new rail network by now. *When you default on the Chinese loans, they don't send you to credit reference bureaus, they simply come for your oil or natural resources. When you default on WB/USA/Bristish loans, they lower your credit rating thus you cant borrow at cheaper cost no more/you top up your loan to repay your loan! Now thats why we keep going to the east with our bowls.* My 2 cents On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com>wrote:
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 21:43, Mark Mwangi <mwangy@gmail.com> wrote:
I think we forget our history too fast. The Americans, The British etc are represented by the Facebooks, Googles, Nestles, Unilevers, CocaColas, BPs, Totals, and Shells operating freely in the country just like the East India company walked in through Mombasa in the name of trade.
The Chinese are the smartest around in my view. Shut down any fishy foreign companies reaping a profit from your peoples data and skill. And don't apologize for it. Rhetoric about global villages and the world being flat doesn't faze me.
About your statements below:
*When you default on the Chinese loans, they don't send you to credit reference bureaus, they simply come for your oil or natural resources.*
Is that why the Chinese took away our giraffes and hyenas ?
I'm not privy to the agreements between .KE and .CN, but the default is true, they come for your natural wealth (except the people, they have many of these). On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 1:25 PM, ndungu stephen <ndungustephen@gmail.com>wrote:
About your statements below:
*When you default on the Chinese loans, they don't send you to credit reference bureaus, they simply come for your oil or natural resources.*
Is that why the Chinese took away our giraffes and hyenas ?
Gentlemen, we have not even gone deep into the system of KPLC prepaid meters and the backend pre-paid cards generation system. I find it very disturbing that whatever tech sector you look at, its the same story, World Bank financed and international vendors. While at the same time, the govt in the tech sector has encouraged a double standards policy. They can come to an event and preach innovation, VC and investor culture, we are all been taken as fools. There is only one thing to do: shut them out so that they can stop preaching these illitrate ideas. They are more than welcome to preach to some WB official or international vendors. So, thanks to this wonderful forum, we have pushed questions until we have a clearer picture. The bottomline is this : *Tano Tano....bei ya mwananchi* is the real kenyan economy, so don't fool yourself that some VC or mobile operator will fund your ideas. These people in govt are only using you to create an marketing image to further their own policies. One day you will wake up and realise this, unfortunately a bit too late. This is another reason why you find that the amount of innovative apps are so scarce. However, please note that my view is not a professional vone, so please research well. In my amateur opinion, the only time a VC or investor maybe interested in you is if your company has a certain turnover. Therefore, at this point you should take advantage of the partnership and grow. For me, I think my next web application will be a filter plugin for browsers : remove words like innovation and kenya completely from all internet results. Enjoy coding and lets see what comes up in the future.
im guessing the initiative to digitize did not come from GOK but as a proposal to GOK by google. (correct me if im wrong), which would place it alongside other efforts that have been in oplace to digitize. Which leads credence to the question: So if it came from some software company that was innovative enough to think of it to grow its core business, why demand some piece of the action just because you belong to Kenya. Kinda reminds me of the bad Mugabe policies on farmlands transfer to blacks... as for the funding, thats a moral issue. there is soo much we are funding that we ought not to that even talking about it causes me migraines. starting from a certain board to explore ways of establishing nuclear power in the country...... On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 5:32 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Areba. Bottomline is this :
*a) Google is providing a digitization platform *
Who choose Google as the platform? Why has the digitization platform not been done locally and to innovative visions by local software/developer companies?
*b) World Bank Funding the project :*
Why is the WB funding the project? Does it mean we have no money to do it ourselves?
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”* ~ Alex Carey ~ Tel No: 0x2af23696
participants (16)
-
[ Brainiac ] -
aki -
bernard kioko -
Crystal Watley Kigoni -
Dennis Kioko -
Humphrey Ngoiya -
Kahugu Isaac -
Mark Mwangi -
ndungu stephen -
Njoroge Tito -
Odhiambo Washington -
Peter Osotsi -
Phares Kariuki -
Philip Musyoki -
Samuel Wachira -
Solomon Mburu Kamau