And this is the reason I really hate working for Kenyans... Lemme explain: When we left college, we was so psyched to do free lance jobs,,, making websites, programming etc.. But Kenyans dont want to pay ... And this forced us to get formal employment cos life was abit uncertain... What is it about Kenyans and paying as a goodwill gesture and not as a forced gesture ?? 1. a major bus company contracted us to make a website about 4 years ago,, they wanted flash animations, a section for comments, flashy adverts and even animated Map routes showing buses traveling on their routes across a Map of Nairobi.. we whipped up 3 quick scheme demos , and even added about 3 animated bus routes and a fictional speech and motto commitment: the sons of that major bus company tried to steal the templates off the flash disk <so they could get others to finish it or they themselves could finish it>- but we were quick enough to stop that. The project went underwater a few weeks after that. 2. a campaigning MP contacted us to make him a website that his supporters could post comments, pledges and send contribution - that meant a PayPal like website or Mpesa tied system. commitment: we asked for a commitment of 7k to avoid such time wastage as previous jobs. That was the last communication. === Conclusion : I dont know what contracts most of us have got, but from that one year, speaking for myself - I met so many Kenyan Company owners who are *very allergic* to paying for services they contract start-ups to do for them... And if they do, most cases have to be wrestled, before they claim a fault in your software and push to pay less... Ironically, startups provide such solutions very cheaply ! == @Moses You may see the Ministry of Information, 7th or 10th floor- about the venues you can pursue to bring that employer to justice.. The ICT board also resides there.

Phares, I'm not sure the law has been passed as yet. On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:

Option 3. Take him to court. A bounced cheque is a crime. Take his bank to task for not freezing his account and forwarding his name to CBK...

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:37 PM, ndungu stephen <ndungustephen@gmail.com>wrote:

...

And this is the reason I really hate working for Kenyans...

Lemme explain:

When we left college, we was so psyched to do free lance jobs,,, making websites, programming etc..

But Kenyans dont want to pay ... And this forced us to get formal employment cos life was abit uncertain...

What is it about Kenyans and paying as a goodwill gesture and not as a forced gesture ??

1. a major bus company contracted us to make a website about 4 years ago,, they wanted flash animations, a section for comments, flashy adverts and even animated Map routes showing buses traveling on their routes across a Map of Nairobi.. we whipped up 3 quick scheme demos , and even added about 3 animated bus routes and a fictional speech and motto

commitment: the sons of that major bus company tried to steal the templates off the flash disk <so they could get others to finish it or they themselves could finish it>- but we were quick enough to stop that.

The project went underwater a few weeks after that.

2. a campaigning MP contacted us to make him a website that his supporters could post comments, pledges and send contribution - that meant a PayPal like website or Mpesa tied system.

commitment: we asked for a commitment of 7k to avoid such time wastage as previous jobs. That was the last communication.

===

Conclusion : I dont know what contracts most of us have got, but from that one year, speaking for myself - I met so many Kenyan Company owners who are *very allergic* to paying for services they contract start-ups to do for them...

And if they do, most cases have to be wrestled, before they claim a fault in your software and push to pay less...

Ironically, startups provide such solutions very cheaply !

== @Moses You may see the Ministry of Information, 7th or 10th floor- about the venues you can pursue to bring that employer to justice.. The ICT board also resides there.

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-- With Regards,

Phares Kariuki

| T: +254 734 810 802 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares |

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Hello Moses. If you have some form of a contract then YOU are liable to be PAID threats or no threats, Period!

Get a good lawyer to advise you. Even for free My reasoning This guy may love law suits and maybe is used to compromising law keepers(judges etc) if costs of taking you to court will be more than costs of paying you, he wont think about it.In fact thinking about it more, he wont take you to court, he is just bluffing. If he cant pay you he cant pay his lawyer either :-) But get a lawyer to advise you anyway based on what you agreed. Few of us here are lawyers and would just lead you to doom..... On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Mash <kihahu@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Phares, I'm not sure the law has been passed as yet.

Its actually the Finance Act of 2005 and came fully into operation in 1st Jan 2006. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet

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-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- God is not an excuse for lack of discipline -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.

Iwe funzo kwetu, na wengine kama sisi. Never lift a finger to do anything without a signed contract in place. Business is business.

My advice? 50% payment upfront. Remain professional, never burn bridges. Sign contracts and use a lawyer if you can. On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Tony Gacheru <tonyg@arcnetkenya.com> wrote:

Better still don’t do anything….. let others do it for you and get paid.

*From:* skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke [mailto: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke] *On Behalf Of *Rad! *Sent:* Friday, May 14, 2010 4:21 PM *To:* Skunkworks Mailing List *Subject:* Re: [Skunkworks] Need advice

Iwe funzo kwetu, na wengine kama sisi. Never lift a finger to do anything without a signed contract in place. Business is business.

-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by *MailScanner* <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and is believed to be clean.

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-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- God is not an excuse for lack of discipline -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.

Heheheh @ Sam Just make sure Kampalans don't demand you pay them upfront as the developer before taking prospective projects coz you are Kenyan! All this happens I guess coz Kenya has and is graduating to another level and a cost has to be paid for the Market to transform and break even. Why... currently if one demands a down payment or a certain amount for projects, the consumers always play around mainly because we have numerous people around 'scavenging' for the jobs and are willing to work at 1/4 your proposed amount just to win the job. Its time for us to change our mentality and stay firm with Business Ethics.Be your brothers keeper.Tommorow you will be on that seat! Chris_w. dabnix@gmail.com On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Sam Nzau <sampishabby@gmail.com> wrote:

Man, man, man...what is it with us Kenyans?? This has happened to me numberless times:

1. In Nov last year a rich couple was starting a BIG restaurant just opposite Methodist church(commonly known as Methodist roundabout) on your way to kawangware. the restaurant is called Pumulla restaurant or something close to that. So the woman approached me through a friend, she needed a complete integrated restaurant POS(front office, waiters, kitchen, accounts, stock control and everything else). So we met at the site, discussed for around 3 hrs until we concluded that i do the job ASAP. I tried to explain to her that doing the system from scratch would be costly and time consuming but to her "Money was not the problem!". what she wanted was the system then i would say how much i wanted(i had mentioned 150k). I trusted her cos i could see big things happening on site, mean the type of work which was going on plus the ride she had was no joke. So i begun the job, no down payment no nothing with only huge promises in my pocket! within like two weeks of regular phone conversions(using my airtime) and meetings(Burning my fuel) i came up with a 90% working demo. They were both very very excited and sure thats what they wanted. I was also very happy knowing i was about to eat with chop sticks! a week, or so, later i had finished the remaining bit, so i called the lady and informed her that the job was over. Ever since....the rest is history buddies. eight months later whenever i call, if im lucky my call is picked, they are always in meetings, or out of town, or they'll call later.

2. Dec last year another lady called(she had read an advert i posted in the daily nation selling a Pos) so this time she wanted to know whether i can develop a system for her drycleaning business in Madaraka shopping centre(CLEANWORLD DRYCLEANERS) (just next to Kutwa club). so i said why not. We meet discuseed everything including the specifications and payments. we agreed i should come up with a demo the get my first instalment. thats is a small system, so within like 7 days i deliverd the completed system! we installed on her comp, i trained and they begun data entry. When i asked for the down payment problems begun. "U know i hav to discuss with my partiner , , u know i hav to use it for atleast two months to ascertain, u know, u know"....the rest is history...7 months and still waiting, no single cent

3.

4.

I had to get of freelance. im employed in Kampala now. Kenyans Lets change

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Mash <kihahu@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Phares, I'm not sure the law has been passed as yet.

Its actually the Finance Act of 2005 and came fully into operation in 1st Jan 2006. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet

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Pole Moses, welcome to this part of business. I hope you take this opportunity to learn. In future, it would help to have a detailed terms of service that you include in the proposal and contract and keep refering to if/when the client brings headache. On 14 May 2010 17:18, Sam Nzau <sampishabby@gmail.com> wrote:

hehehe chris, what are u sayings? "Kampalans" and good when it comes to paying though they kinda fear us Kenyans. They deal with us with caution

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Chris W. <dabnix@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Heheheh @ Sam Just make sure Kampalans don't demand you pay them upfront as the developer before taking prospective projects coz you are Kenyan!

All this happens I guess coz Kenya has and is graduating to another level and a cost has to be paid for the Market to transform and break even.

Why... currently if one demands a down payment or a certain amount for projects, the consumers always play around mainly because we have numerous people around 'scavenging' for the jobs and are willing to work at 1/4 your proposed amount just to win the job.

Its time for us to change our mentality and stay firm with Business Ethics.Be your brothers keeper.Tommorow you will be on that seat!

Chris_w. dabnix@gmail.com

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Sam Nzau <sampishabby@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Man, man, man...what is it with us Kenyans?? This has happened to me numberless times:

1. In Nov last year a rich couple was starting a BIG restaurant just opposite Methodist church(commonly known as Methodist roundabout) on your way to kawangware. the restaurant is called Pumulla restaurant or something close to that. So the woman approached me through a friend, she needed a complete integrated restaurant POS(front office, waiters, kitchen, accounts, stock control and everything else). So we met at the site, discussed for around 3 hrs until we concluded that i do the job ASAP. I tried to explain to her that doing the system from scratch would be costly and time consuming but to her "Money was not the problem!". what she wanted was the system then i would say how much i wanted(i had mentioned 150k). I trusted her cos i could see big things happening on site, mean the type of work which was going on plus the ride she had was no joke. So i begun the job, no down payment no nothing with only huge promises in my pocket! within like two weeks of regular phone conversions(using my airtime) and meetings(Burning my fuel) i came up with a 90% working demo. They were both very very excited and sure thats what they wanted. I was also very happy knowing i was about to eat with chop sticks! a week, or so, later i had finished the remaining bit, so i called the lady and informed her that the job was over. Ever since....the rest is history buddies. eight months later whenever i call, if im lucky my call is picked, they are always in meetings, or out of town, or they'll call later.

2. Dec last year another lady called(she had read an advert i posted in the daily nation selling a Pos) so this time she wanted to know whether i can develop a system for her drycleaning business in Madaraka shopping centre(CLEANWORLD DRYCLEANERS) (just next to Kutwa club). so i said why not. We meet discuseed everything including the specifications and payments. we agreed i should come up with a demo the get my first instalment. thats is a small system, so within like 7 days i deliverd the completed system! we installed on her comp, i trained and they begun data entry. When i asked for the down payment problems begun. "U know i hav to discuss with my partiner , , u know i hav to use it for atleast two months to ascertain, u know, u know"....the rest is history...7 months and still waiting, no single cent

3.

4.

I had to get of freelance. im employed in Kampala now. Kenyans Lets change

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com>wrote:

...

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Mash <kihahu@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Phares, I'm not sure the law has been passed as yet.

Its actually the Finance Act of 2005 and came fully into operation in 1st Jan 2006. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet

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-- Gichingiri Kuria _________________________________________ www.website.co.ke / www.sokoletu.co.ke

You have a solid defence. Your delivery of the product was to be based on a consideration, which obligation he has failed to meet. My advice is you must have always have a contract.Having the contract is not enough though, your agreement must also be enforceable, one you can actually act on. Alot of business agreements sound good on paper but when the crisis actually arises, other considerations like reputation,business relations and money hinder the enforceability of the penalties of the agreement, rendering it useless. Tumezoea! This is the typical Kenyan scenario and its built upon the following Kenyan myths: 1. Software should be free, you can just download it from the net! 2. There is always a developer out there who costs less. 3. Kenyan software products are not as reliable as foreign products, especially on support. Further, the state seeks to protect consumers;the assumption is the provider knows enough to protect himself . In our fledgling ICT industry, most coders are exactly that, just coders with little or no knowledge on business processes. The few that have had the guts to accept that inspite their technological brilliance, they lack the skill to develop a product lifecycle, business processes, marketing et al and have partnered with friends or collegues with these skillsets are the so called ICT market leaders. Their products may not be so brilliant, but the delivery and structures around them are. Third,I believe the biggest hinderance is the fact that most of us behave as if there is not enough of the pie to go around hence the undercutting. Africa is the new Asia people, and here is where all the IT billionaires are going to be made. If your solution or idea is really that good or novel, take time to grow it and give it structure on which to stand. On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Sam Nzau <sampishabby@gmail.com> wrote:

hehehe chris, what are u sayings? "Kampalans" and good when it comes to paying though they kinda fear us Kenyans. They deal with us with caution

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Chris W. <dabnix@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Heheheh @ Sam Just make sure Kampalans don't demand you pay them upfront as the developer before taking prospective projects coz you are Kenyan!

All this happens I guess coz Kenya has and is graduating to another level and a cost has to be paid for the Market to transform and break even.

Why... currently if one demands a down payment or a certain amount for projects, the consumers always play around mainly because we have numerous people around 'scavenging' for the jobs and are willing to work at 1/4 your proposed amount just to win the job.

Its time for us to change our mentality and stay firm with Business Ethics.Be your brothers keeper.Tommorow you will be on that seat!

Chris_w. dabnix@gmail.com

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Sam Nzau <sampishabby@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Man, man, man...what is it with us Kenyans?? This has happened to me numberless times:

1. In Nov last year a rich couple was starting a BIG restaurant just opposite Methodist church(commonly known as Methodist roundabout) on your way to kawangware. the restaurant is called Pumulla restaurant or something close to that. So the woman approached me through a friend, she needed a complete integrated restaurant POS(front office, waiters, kitchen, accounts, stock control and everything else). So we met at the site, discussed for around 3 hrs until we concluded that i do the job ASAP. I tried to explain to her that doing the system from scratch would be costly and time consuming but to her "Money was not the problem!". what she wanted was the system then i would say how much i wanted(i had mentioned 150k). I trusted her cos i could see big things happening on site, mean the type of work which was going on plus the ride she had was no joke. So i begun the job, no down payment no nothing with only huge promises in my pocket! within like two weeks of regular phone conversions(using my airtime) and meetings(Burning my fuel) i came up with a 90% working demo. They were both very very excited and sure thats what they wanted. I was also very happy knowing i was about to eat with chop sticks! a week, or so, later i had finished the remaining bit, so i called the lady and informed her that the job was over. Ever since....the rest is history buddies. eight months later whenever i call, if im lucky my call is picked, they are always in meetings, or out of town, or they'll call later.

2. Dec last year another lady called(she had read an advert i posted in the daily nation selling a Pos) so this time she wanted to know whether i can develop a system for her drycleaning business in Madaraka shopping centre(CLEANWORLD DRYCLEANERS) (just next to Kutwa club). so i said why not. We meet discuseed everything including the specifications and payments. we agreed i should come up with a demo the get my first instalment. thats is a small system, so within like 7 days i deliverd the completed system! we installed on her comp, i trained and they begun data entry. When i asked for the down payment problems begun. "U know i hav to discuss with my partiner , , u know i hav to use it for atleast two months to ascertain, u know, u know"....the rest is history...7 months and still waiting, no single cent

3.

4.

I had to get of freelance. im employed in Kampala now. Kenyans Lets change

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com>wrote:

...

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Mash <kihahu@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Phares, I'm not sure the law has been passed as yet.

Its actually the Finance Act of 2005 and came fully into operation in 1st Jan 2006. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet

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And I believe there are also many more cases out there similar to Mine and Sam's issues with dealing with the Kenyan Entrepreneur and their efforts to go IT <for free!!!>... And it is for this reason that I advocate we <starting from skunkworks> have to change and come up with new business rulings when dealing with clients - just like in the US Silicon valley- nothing is done without the good faith of patents and contracts. I know many start-ups are willing to submit to the terms of the client - but what if all Kenyan IT community decided "*no commitment, no work*" ? I believe with such a *motto* spread across the *IT community*, the Kenyan Entrepreneur will be forced to change, and if not - they are welcome to seek avenues of downloading what they want for free <goodluck with that !!!> or buying it for big bucks from the western world <at least they will have paid for it>... This would avoid making programmers spend a lot of wasted time coding and also earn respect - This will avoid situations of their IT nephews downloading a cracked demo of the same software from the internet, a few weeks to completion of your 8 month job ! - Because, if the Entrepreneur felt they wanted to download it or they can get the service for free, they should not have approached you in the first place to do the job !!!

Kumbe tz been the custom! Commitment before one writes even a single line is a must plus a signed requirements specification.If you take shortcuts,be ready for trouble. On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:

Maybe IT professionals need to have minimum guidelines like other professions on what to charge. And anyone who goes below that is penalised by the community when caught....

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 2:22 PM, ndungu stephen <ndungustephen@gmail.com>wrote:

...

And I believe there are also many more cases out there similar to Mine and Sam's issues with dealing with the Kenyan Entrepreneur and their efforts to go IT <for free!!!>...

And it is for this reason that I advocate we <starting from skunkworks> have to change and come up with new business rulings when dealing with clients - just like in the US Silicon valley- nothing is done without the good faith of patents and contracts.

I know many start-ups are willing to submit to the terms of the client - but what if all Kenyan IT community decided "*no commitment, no work*" ?

I believe with such a *motto* spread across the *IT community*, the Kenyan Entrepreneur will be forced to change, and if not - they are welcome to seek avenues of downloading what they want for free <goodluck with that !!!> or buying it for big bucks from the western world <at least they will have paid for it>...

This would avoid making programmers spend a lot of wasted time coding and also earn respect -

This will avoid situations of their IT nephews downloading a cracked demo of the same software from the internet, a few weeks to completion of your 8 month job !

- Because, if the Entrepreneur felt they wanted to download it or they can get the service for free, they should not have approached you in the first place to do the job !!!

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-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- God is not an excuse for lack of discipline -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.

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Great idea! Someone can actually make some money doing this. You can think of the following revenue streams: - Charge the fraudster businesses to be taken off the list of shame. - Auction the solutions on the site - etc etc Any other ideas? Olive trees are important. They represent everything that roots us, anchors us, identifies us and locates us in this world - whether it be belonging to a family, a community, a tribe, a nation, a religion or, most of all, a place called home. - Thomas Friedman - "The Lexus And The Olive Tree" ________________________________ From: NDUNGU STEPHEN MAINA P15/2727/2007 <ndungu.stephen@students.uonbi.ac.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 9:21:20 AM Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Need advice wow, i thought it was my PR or something that was wrong and clients go AWOL on me when i ask for a commitment fee kumbe it's the MO!! The most hilarious one was my own primary school! they needed an accounting system. i assumed they wouldn't think of skipping on me because, come on? my own primary school! now i'm singing a different song. And another client who we met at a prominent restaurant along loita street and had a heavy business lunch as we did requirements gathering on a bulk sms website he wanted and supposedly wanted it "as soon as yesterday!". we left and he told us not to worry over the bill eti "we should go and start coding". later that week i went to the joint and the ka dude waiter still had the bill waiting for me to pick! the client has since been in "Kuwait" and will "communicate ASAP!" and "We should go on building the site he will pay us a lump sum fee plus bonus!" The Sheer Nerve! Maybe we should start a List of Shame of Companies/Individiuals who skip on you when you ask for some down payment! Including details of what made them skip so that other devs can be wary of them? -- regards, S.N.Maina ExtremeGrafixDesign Ltd. www.creativepitome.com steve@creativepitome.com P.O BOX 193 Ngong Hills +254726489,+254771461638

*@Stephen: is such a noble Idea you beaming here, Americans soar up high in INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY DEVELOPERS. an African writer said AFRICA KILLS HER OWN SUN, AND WE DO we are the developers and the same thieves we are fighting here so the only way is a REGULATING BODY that will leave open source open, proprietary sacred. but dude is a huddle way up but in the end it shall be done.* * OPINION* On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Haggai Nyang <haggai.nyang@gmail.com>wrote:

Oh yes! List of shame lazima...I definitely second that!

Quite a number of mails of late of guys whose deals have gone bust due to someone skipping on payment....it's time we took some definitive action on this!

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 18:26, Bernard Owuor <b_owuor@yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Great idea! Someone can actually make some money doing this.

You can think of the following revenue streams:

- Charge the fraudster businesses to be taken off the list of shame. - Auction the solutions on the site - etc etc

Any other ideas?

Olive trees are important. They represent everything that roots us, anchors us, identifies us and locates us in this world - whether it be belonging to a family, a community, a tribe, a nation, a religion or, most of all, a place called home. - Thomas Friedman - "The Lexus And The Olive Tree"

------------------------------ *From:* NDUNGU STEPHEN MAINA P15/2727/2007 < ndungu.stephen@students.uonbi.ac.ke> *To:* Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> *Sent:* Mon, May 17, 2010 9:21:20 AM

*Subject:* Re: [Skunkworks] Need advice

wow, i thought it was my PR or something that was wrong and clients go AWOL on me when i ask for a commitment fee kumbe it's the MO!! The most hilarious one was my own primary school! they needed an accounting system. i assumed they wouldn't think of skipping on me because, come on? my own primary school! now i'm singing a different song. And another client who we met at a prominent restaurant along loita street and had a heavy business lunch as we did requirements gathering on a bulk sms website he wanted and supposedly wanted it "as soon as yesterday!". we left and he told us not to worry over the bill eti "we should go and start coding". later that week i went to the joint and the ka dude waiter still had the bill waiting for me to pick! the client has since been in "Kuwait" and will "communicate ASAP!" and "We should go on building the site he will pay us a lump sum fee plus bonus!" The Sheer Nerve! Maybe we should start a List of Shame of Companies/Individiuals who skip on you when you ask for some down payment! Including details of what made them skip so that other devs can be wary of them? -- regards, S.N.Maina ExtremeGrafixDesign Ltd. www.creativepitome.com steve@creativepitome.com P.O BOX 193 Ngong Hills +254726489,+254771461638

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-- MICHAEL A. AKUNGA (+254) 0726 174 815 michaelakunga@gmail.com michaelakunga@yahoo.com

I second Simon idea, instead of duplicating sites! My mapeni mawili! On 18/05/2010, Simon Mbuthia <simon.mbuthia@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe we just discovered something else that gotissuez.com can be used for...

On 18 May 2010 11:32, MICHAEL AKUNGA <michaelakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

...

*@Stephen: is such a noble Idea you beaming here, Americans soar up high in INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY DEVELOPERS. an African writer said AFRICA KILLS HER OWN SUN, AND WE DO we are the developers and the same thieves we are fighting here so the only way is a REGULATING BODY that will leave open source open, proprietary sacred. but dude is a huddle way up but in the end it shall be done.*

* OPINION*

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Haggai Nyang <haggai.nyang@gmail.com>wrote:

...

Oh yes! List of shame lazima...I definitely second that!

Quite a number of mails of late of guys whose deals have gone bust due to someone skipping on payment....it's time we took some definitive action on this!

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 18:26, Bernard Owuor <b_owuor@yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Great idea! Someone can actually make some money doing this.

You can think of the following revenue streams:

- Charge the fraudster businesses to be taken off the list of shame. - Auction the solutions on the site - etc etc

Any other ideas?

Olive trees are important. They represent everything that roots us, anchors us, identifies us and locates us in this world - whether it be belonging to a family, a community, a tribe, a nation, a religion or, most of all, a place called home. - Thomas Friedman - "The Lexus And The Olive Tree"

------------------------------ *From:* NDUNGU STEPHEN MAINA P15/2727/2007 < ndungu.stephen@students.uonbi.ac.ke> *To:* Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> *Sent:* Mon, May 17, 2010 9:21:20 AM

*Subject:* Re: [Skunkworks] Need advice

wow, i thought it was my PR or something that was wrong and clients go AWOL on me when i ask for a commitment fee kumbe it's the MO!! The most hilarious one was my own primary school! they needed an accounting system. i assumed they wouldn't think of skipping on me because, come on? my own primary school! now i'm singing a different song. And another client who we met at a prominent restaurant along loita street and had a heavy business lunch as we did requirements gathering on a bulk sms website he wanted and supposedly wanted it "as soon as yesterday!". we left and he told us not to worry over the bill eti "we should go and start coding". later that week i went to the joint and the ka dude waiter still had the bill waiting for me to pick! the client has since been in "Kuwait" and will "communicate ASAP!" and "We should go on building the site he will pay us a lump sum fee plus bonus!" The Sheer Nerve! Maybe we should start a List of Shame of Companies/Individiuals who skip on you when you ask for some down payment! Including details of what made them skip so that other devs can be wary of them? -- regards, S.N.Maina ExtremeGrafixDesign Ltd. www.creativepitome.com steve@creativepitome.com P.O BOX 193 Ngong Hills +254726489,+254771461638

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-- MICHAEL A. AKUNGA (+254) 0726 174 815 michaelakunga@gmail.com michaelakunga@yahoo.com

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-- Solomon Mbũrũ Kamau ***************************************************** Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will graze all the same way to the side of a hill! AND It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous generosity! http://smiley2.wordpress.com http://mburu.sikika.co.ke

Conning people of their money is an art perfect by many Kenyan companies. On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:37 PM, ndungu stephen <ndungustephen@gmail.com>wrote:

And this is the reason I really hate working for Kenyans...

Lemme explain:

When we left college, we was so psyched to do free lance jobs,,, making websites, programming etc..

But Kenyans dont want to pay ... And this forced us to get formal employment cos life was abit uncertain...

What is it about Kenyans and paying as a goodwill gesture and not as a forced gesture ??

1. a major bus company contracted us to make a website about 4 years ago,, they wanted flash animations, a section for comments, flashy adverts and even animated Map routes showing buses traveling on their routes across a Map of Nairobi.. we whipped up 3 quick scheme demos , and even added about 3 animated bus routes and a fictional speech and motto

commitment: the sons of that major bus company tried to steal the templates off the flash disk <so they could get others to finish it or they themselves could finish it>- but we were quick enough to stop that.

The project went underwater a few weeks after that.

2. a campaigning MP contacted us to make him a website that his supporters could post comments, pledges and send contribution - that meant a PayPal like website or Mpesa tied system.

commitment: we asked for a commitment of 7k to avoid such time wastage as previous jobs. That was the last communication.

===

Conclusion : I dont know what contracts most of us have got, but from that one year, speaking for myself - I met so many Kenyan Company owners who are *very allergic* to paying for services they contract start-ups to do for them...

And if they do, most cases have to be wrestled, before they claim a fault in your software and push to pay less...

Ironically, startups provide such solutions very cheaply !

== @Moses You may see the Ministry of Information, 7th or 10th floor- about the venues you can pursue to bring that employer to justice.. The ICT board also resides there.

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On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Edge Networks <edgenetworkskenya@gmail.com>wrote:

Had a similar ordeal with a church website. Finally decided enough was enough and defaced the site with some very explicit stuff to piss them off. Anyway was threatened with legal action but dared them to go ahead since to my understanding the site belonged to me until the client paid for it..... they were shameless in threatening coz they hadnt even paid a deposit.

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Frankline Chitwa <frank.chitwa@gmail.com>wrote:

...

What are you afraid of? If he haasn't paid you, then that measn he hasn't honored you contract, whether written or spoken. Both are enforceable in court. He is liable for fines himself.

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com>wrote:

...

I thought writing cheques which bounce is a criminal offense?

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Moses Katembu <mose.kate@gmail.com>wrote:

...

Just brought a client site down. He is threatening to go to court yet he hasn't paid me and the last time he paid, he gave me two cheques which all bounced. That's was back in February. To make the matter worse i even advanced some money to this guy. Which he promised to pay nxt day, hasn't paid to date.

Some one give me an advice on the way forward. Moses...huyu mtu hana pesa ya kuwin case yoyote! Sue his behind immediately!

Regards Moses

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-- www.golavish.com - The travel and leisure www.raccuddasys.com - code Development issues

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-- Edge Networks P.O Box 9596 - 00100 Tel: +254 20 2020963 Nairobi.

POWERED OUTREACH!

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-- People should know when they are conquered.