OT : Historical Kenya and its land....
Its going to be a slow week, so have some time for research. :-) Lets us be fair to history too when referring to historical and ancestry land topics. So how much Land did KE "steal " from its neighbours like Somalia, Sudan, Uganda, Tanzania upon the 1963 indepence of the country and recognition of its international borders? Seems the problem creators were the 1884 berlin conference and the division of Africa while this map of 1895 shows a very strange, funny looking KE. Seems Uganda extended all the way upto kikuyu area. http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images3/africalargemap.jpg Am researching maps, if you find any links to old maps, pls share. Rgds.
This is the strangest looking map. All copies should be destroyed. Hope this does not get in to the hands of one Yoweri Museveni. That aside, I will not like a Kenya that looks like what I see in this map.
A map of 1808, where is KE? Now who owns what? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Africa_1808.jpg On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:48 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Its going to be a slow week, so have some time for research. :-)
Lets us be fair to history too when referring to historical and ancestry land topics. So how much Land did KE "steal " from its neighbours like Somalia, Sudan, Uganda, Tanzania upon the 1963 indepence of the country and recognition of its international borders?
Seems the problem creators were the 1884 berlin conference and the division of Africa while this map of 1895 shows a very strange, funny looking KE. Seems Uganda extended all the way upto kikuyu area. http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images3/africalargemap.jpg
Am researching maps, if you find any links to old maps, pls share.
Rgds.
Right now I'm getting kind of disappointed with my research. I can find the map of the Great Ethiopian Empire extending all the way to towards South Africa who by the way were the true fighters of colonialism because Ethiopia was the only country that technically never colonised. I am unable to find any Maasai Community Empire so far except that they emigrated from the Nile. Did they find open lands and call this their ancestry lands? How can they say the Great Rift Valley theirs? Were they the original inhabitants of the land or was some one else here who has claim to historical lands? Even going the basis of this map of 1808, they dont quite exist in any form worth of being put on a map. I can read the words "man eaters" on the map which probably explains the lions but nothing else. My question : Who own Kenya, What makes Kenya a Republic and Whether the constituion means anything? seems is going to lead me on an telling and interesting journey. :-) Over and Out for now. Rgds. On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:55 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
A map of 1808, where is KE? Now who owns what?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Africa_1808.jpg
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:48 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Its going to be a slow week, so have some time for research. :-)
Lets us be fair to history too when referring to historical and ancestry land topics. So how much Land did KE "steal " from its neighbours like Somalia, Sudan, Uganda, Tanzania upon the 1963 indepence of the country and recognition of its international borders?
Seems the problem creators were the 1884 berlin conference and the division of Africa while this map of 1895 shows a very strange, funny looking KE. Seems Uganda extended all the way upto kikuyu area. http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images3/africalargemap.jpg
Am researching maps, if you find any links to old maps, pls share.
Rgds.
Correction: Ethiopia and Liberia are the only African countries that were never colonized --- On Tue, 12/28/10, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OT : Historical Kenya and its land.... To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010, 1:10 PM Right now I'm getting kind of disappointed with my research. I can find the map of the Great Ethiopian Empire extending all the way to towards South Africa who by the way were the true fighters of colonialism because Ethiopia was the only country that technically never colonised. I am unable to find any Maasai Community Empire so far except that they emigrated from the Nile. Did they find open lands and call this their ancestry lands? How can they say the Great Rift Valley theirs? Were they the original inhabitants of the land or was some one else here who has claim to historical lands? Even going the basis of this map of 1808, they dont quite exist in any form worth of being put on a map. I can read the words "man eaters" on the map which probably explains the lions but nothing else. My question : Who own Kenya, What makes Kenya a Republic and Whether the constituion means anything? seems is going to lead me on an telling and interesting journey. :-) Over and Out for now. Rgds. On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:55 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: A map of 1808, where is KE? Now who owns what? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Africa_1808.jpg On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:48 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: Its going to be a slow week, so have some time for research. :-) Lets us be fair to history too when referring to historical and ancestry land topics. So how much Land did KE "steal " from its neighbours like Somalia, Sudan, Uganda, Tanzania upon the 1963 indepence of the country and recognition of its international borders? Seems the problem creators were the 1884 berlin conference and the division of Africa while this map of 1895 shows a very strange, funny looking KE. Seems Uganda extended all the way upto kikuyu area. http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images3/africalargemap.jpg Am researching maps, if you find any links to old maps, pls share. Rgds. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
nope Liberia was a colony in the 1800s .... On 28/12/2010, maina <mamwake@yahoo.com> wrote:
Correction:
Ethiopia and Liberia are the only African countries that were never colonized
--- On Tue, 12/28/10, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OT : Historical Kenya and its land.... To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010, 1:10 PM
Right now I'm getting kind of disappointed with my research. I can find the map of the Great Ethiopian Empire extending all the way to towards South Africa who by the way were the true fighters of colonialism because Ethiopia was the only country that technically never colonised. I am unable to find any Maasai Community Empire so far except that they emigrated from the Nile. Did they find open lands and call this their ancestry lands? How can they say the Great Rift Valley theirs? Were they the original inhabitants of the land or was some one else here who has claim to historical lands? Even going the basis of this map of 1808, they dont quite exist in any form worth of being put on a map. I can read the words "man eaters" on the map which probably explains the lions but nothing else. My question : Who own Kenya, What makes Kenya a Republic and Whether the constituion means anything? seems is going to lead me on an telling and interesting journey. :-)
Over and Out for now.
Rgds.
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:55 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
A map of 1808, where is KE? Now who owns what?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Africa_1808.jpg
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:48 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Its going to be a slow week, so have some time for research. :-)
Lets us be fair to history too when referring to historical and ancestry land topics. So how much Land did KE "steal " from its neighbours like Somalia, Sudan, Uganda, Tanzania upon the 1963 indepence of the country and recognition of its international borders?
Seems the problem creators were the 1884 berlin conference and the division of Africa while this map of 1895 shows a very strange, funny looking KE. Seems Uganda extended all the way upto kikuyu area. http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images3/africalargemap.jpg
Am researching maps, if you find any links to old maps, pls share.
Rgds.
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Watson Kambo
I think we are looking at all this all WRONG. And please do correct me if I am wrong since i am no lawyer, but I thought that all land belongs to the Government of Kenya. And we are issued with title deeds as leases of up to 99 years. And in the name of national unity, all citizens are allowed to own land anywhere within the boundaries of Kenya. Where did the emergence of "This is my ancestral land" come from? No one man(or community) should have all that power. Regards.
On 28/12/2010, maina <mamwake@yahoo.com> wrote:
Correction:
Ethiopia and Liberia are the only African countries that were never colonized
--- On Tue, 12/28/10, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OT : Historical Kenya and its land.... To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010, 1:10 PM
Right now I'm getting kind of disappointed with my research. I can find the map of the Great Ethiopian Empire extending all the way to towards South Africa who by the way were the true fighters of colonialism because Ethiopia was the only country that technically never colonised. I am unable to find any Maasai Community Empire so far except that they emigrated from the Nile. Did they find open lands and call this their ancestry lands? How can they�say the Great Rift Valley theirs? Were they the original inhabitants of the land or was some one else here who has claim to historical lands?�Even going the basis of this map of 1808, they dont quite�exist in any form worth of being put on a map. I can read the words "man eaters" on the map which probably explains the lions but nothing else. My question : Who own Kenya,�What�makes Kenya a Republic and Whether the constituion means anything?��seems is going to lead me on an telling and interesting journey. :-)
Over and Out for now.
Rgds.
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:55 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
A map of 1808, where is KE? Now who owns what?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Africa_1808.jpg
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:48 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Its going to be a slow week, so have some time for research. :-)
Lets us be fair to history too when referring to historical and ancestry land topics. So how much Land did KE "steal " from its neighbours like Somalia, Sudan, Uganda, Tanzania�upon the 1963 indepence of the country and recognition of its international borders?
Seems the problem creators were the 1884 berlin conference and the division of Africa while this map of 1895 shows a very strange, funny looking KE. Seems Uganda extended all the way upto kikuyu area. http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images3/africalargemap.jpg
Am researching maps, if you find any links to old maps, pls share.
Rgds.
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Watson Kambo _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
In my search so far , which is not that far on a time scale i.e around 2000 years ago, there are major movements of people in West, East and Central Africa . I think I finally have the structure in place now to begin the research proper. 1) The Bantu people : Farmers and agriculture ( migration patterns between 1000-800BC, starting around the Areas near Benin, West Africa. ) 2) The Nilotic People : Pastoralists and fishermen 3) The Cushitic people : Semi-Nomadic, pastoralists. Lets see how it goes and whether any DNA studies have been done by historians on major movements of people in Africa. Surely at this early time in research and reading the various articles, it seems no one can claim to have been in Kenya first because there are movements of people and kenya did not exist either. The interesting question to me is this : The Maasai community are pastoralists and have stuck to their traditions and customs, when did they become farmers that land ownership become important? I can understand the grazing part but people who historically have no fixed place as home?. Therefore any area that is fit for grazing can be called "our land", a similar theme used by the colonialists to grab land in Africa. Did the 1), 2) and 3) above use the same grabbing ideas and this land got passed down in ancestry? Also something of interest is the grazing of Maasai cattle in parts of City of Nairobi say eg during droughts. Are there bylaws carried forward that allowed this grazing based on old agreements between the city, govt and the Maasai Community? Me time journey and any corrections are most welcome. :-)
Well it turns out that there are people out there who did some DNA testing in 2003. This lady has done some ground breaking work in other areas too. Evidence for "Eve" In April of this year, Sarah Tishkoff of the University of Maryland and a team of coworkers reported genetic analyses of more than 600 living Tanzanians from 14 different tribes and four linguistic groups. They analyzed mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA)—the tool of choice for tracing ancestry because it is inherited only through the mother as part of the ovum. The number of mutations that have accumulated in mtDNA is a rough measure of the time that has passed since that lineage first appeared. The owner of the first modern human mtDNA (by definition, a woman) is often referred to as "Eve," although many women of that time are likely to have shared similar mtDNA. Tishkoff and her colleagues chose to investigate East African peoples for specific reasons. The number of linguistic and cultural differences is unusually high in the region, as is the variation in physical appearance—East Africans are tall or short, darker-skinned or lighter-skinned, round-faced or narrow-faced, and so on. This observation suggested that the genetic composition of the population is highly diverse, and as expected, the team found substantial variation in the mtDNA. In fact, members of five of the lineages showed an exceptionally high number of mutations compared with other populations, indicating that these East African lineages are of great antiquity. Identified by tribal affiliation, these are: the Sandawe, who speak a "click" language related to that of the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert; the Burunge and Gorowaa, who migrated to Tanzania from Ethiopia within the last five thousand years; and the Maasai and the Datog, who probably originated in the Sudan. The efforts of the University of Maryland group reflect a substantially larger database and more certain geographic origins for its subjects than earlier mtDNA studies. Further, the work by Tishkoff's team reveals that these five East African populations have even older origins than the !Kung San of southern Africa, who previously had the oldest known mtDNA "These samples showed really deep, old lineages with lots of genetic diversity," Tishkoff says. "They are the oldest lineages identified to date. And that fact makes it highly likely that 'Eve' was an East or Northeast African. My guess is that the region of Ethiopia or the Sudan is where modern humans originated." By assuming that mtDNA mutates at a constant rate, Tishkoff's team estimated that the oldest lineages in their study originated 170,000 years ago, although she cautions that the method only gives an approximate date. Nonetheless, this finding is neatly congruent with new fossil evidence http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/2003/11/we-are-all-africans/3
@aki....This should be of interest to you http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1212_021213_journeyofman_2.h... On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 11:58 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Well it turns out that there are people out there who did some DNA testing in 2003. This lady has done some ground breaking work in other areas too.
Evidence for "Eve"
In April of this year, Sarah Tishkoff of the University of Maryland and a team of coworkers reported genetic analyses of more than 600 living Tanzanians from 14 different tribes and four linguistic groups. They analyzed mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA)—the tool of choice for tracing ancestry because it is inherited only through the mother as part of the ovum. The number of mutations that have accumulated in mtDNA is a rough measure of the time that has passed since that lineage first appeared. The owner of the first modern human mtDNA (by definition, a woman) is often referred to as "Eve," although many women of that time are likely to have shared similar mtDNA.
Tishkoff and her colleagues chose to investigate East African peoples for specific reasons. The number of linguistic and cultural differences is unusually high in the region, as is the variation in physical appearance—East Africans are tall or short, darker-skinned or lighter-skinned, round-faced or narrow-faced, and so on. This observation suggested that the genetic composition of the population is highly diverse, and as expected, the team found substantial variation in the mtDNA. In fact, members of five of the lineages showed an exceptionally high number of mutations compared with other populations, indicating that these East African lineages are of great antiquity. Identified by tribal affiliation, these are: the Sandawe, who speak a "click" language related to that of the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert; the Burunge and Gorowaa, who migrated to Tanzania from Ethiopia within the last five thousand years; and the Maasai and the Datog, who probably originated in the Sudan. The efforts of the University of Maryland group reflect a substantially larger database and more certain geographic origins for its subjects than earlier mtDNA studies. Further, the work by Tishkoff's team reveals that these five East African populations have even older origins than the !Kung San of southern Africa, who previously had the oldest known mtDNA
"These samples showed really deep, old lineages with lots of genetic diversity," Tishkoff says. "They are the oldest lineages identified to date. And that fact makes it highly likely that 'Eve' was an East or Northeast African. My guess is that the region of Ethiopia or the Sudan is where modern humans originated."
By assuming that mtDNA mutates at a constant rate, Tishkoff's team estimated that the oldest lineages in their study originated 170,000 years ago, although she cautions that the method only gives an approximate date. Nonetheless, this finding is neatly congruent with new fossil evidence
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/2003/11/we-are-all-africans/3
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
more info http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/ On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Nicholas Mutinda <mutindah@gmail.com>wrote:
@aki....This should be of interest to you
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1212_021213_journeyofman_2.h...
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 11:58 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Well it turns out that there are people out there who did some DNA testing in 2003. This lady has done some ground breaking work in other areas too.
Evidence for "Eve"
In April of this year, Sarah Tishkoff of the University of Maryland and a team of coworkers reported genetic analyses of more than 600 living Tanzanians from 14 different tribes and four linguistic groups. They analyzed mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA)—the tool of choice for tracing ancestry because it is inherited only through the mother as part of the ovum. The number of mutations that have accumulated in mtDNA is a rough measure of the time that has passed since that lineage first appeared. The owner of the first modern human mtDNA (by definition, a woman) is often referred to as "Eve," although many women of that time are likely to have shared similar mtDNA.
Tishkoff and her colleagues chose to investigate East African peoples for specific reasons. The number of linguistic and cultural differences is unusually high in the region, as is the variation in physical appearance—East Africans are tall or short, darker-skinned or lighter-skinned, round-faced or narrow-faced, and so on. This observation suggested that the genetic composition of the population is highly diverse, and as expected, the team found substantial variation in the mtDNA. In fact, members of five of the lineages showed an exceptionally high number of mutations compared with other populations, indicating that these East African lineages are of great antiquity. Identified by tribal affiliation, these are: the Sandawe, who speak a "click" language related to that of the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert; the Burunge and Gorowaa, who migrated to Tanzania from Ethiopia within the last five thousand years; and the Maasai and the Datog, who probably originated in the Sudan. The efforts of the University of Maryland group reflect a substantially larger database and more certain geographic origins for its subjects than earlier mtDNA studies. Further, the work by Tishkoff's team reveals that these five East African populations have even older origins than the !Kung San of southern Africa, who previously had the oldest known mtDNA
"These samples showed really deep, old lineages with lots of genetic diversity," Tishkoff says. "They are the oldest lineages identified to date. And that fact makes it highly likely that 'Eve' was an East or Northeast African. My guess is that the region of Ethiopia or the Sudan is where modern humans originated."
By assuming that mtDNA mutates at a constant rate, Tishkoff's team estimated that the oldest lineages in their study originated 170,000 years ago, although she cautions that the method only gives an approximate date. Nonetheless, this finding is neatly congruent with new fossil evidence
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/2003/11/we-are-all-africans/3
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Ok, I think it is time to close this thread because it could take me years to get the info while I'm no Phd or a specialist in the genetics or archaelogoy field. I'm not off the subject and will continue poolay poolay. In summary , the pattern is very clear just after 4 days of basic research. Some-one came from somewhere and went somewhere when at the time there were no borders or states . I see only one thing on the ancestral/historical land issues in that they are as old as the migration of modern humans dating back to thousands of years of conflict and who has the bigger kingdoms etc. Historical claims can go as far as a few thousand years, who will turn the entire world upside down to fix these things that happened that long ago where history can be easily twisted to suit the tellers and generations. For Kenya and because of the 1963 declaration of independence, its borders and all those who are in it as a Nation need to respect the integrity of the constitition that guarantees the rights of every kenyans and also provides for equal representantions of the diverse kenyan population from the majority to the minority. I hope the new constitution has taken into account all the factors, esle we should just revert back to the kingdoms of the historical years. Then, as in the past thousands of years, we can take presents to kingdoms and make land deals/treaties, we can be colonised and become colonisers. Whoever has the best weaponry will lead the kingdom. No cars, no tech, nothing. Life can be so much easier, remove all the borders and states. Let us revert to the pre-historic eras, whoever has the biggest spear wins. Are these choices? Some amatuer thots. :-) Rgds.
participants (6)
-
aki -
maina -
Nicholas Mutinda -
Philip Musyoki -
sospeter＠elimu.co.ke -
Watson Kambo