Thnks guys for the response. Unfortunately I don't have the time to discover yet another "Open Source" system while could be the same people who probably get funding from off-shoot of some unknown or undeclared enterprise. Some food for thought for the Open and Free software evangelists... your highly valued UNIX based kernel ( FREE ) is the biggest billion dollar industry today. I know understand why Wall-Street-Protests are gaining recognition. Cheers. :-)

@Alan Which is very spineless of them. Big software corp taking advantage of opensource with a rep of giving very little back. @Aki You can try Darwin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) Its apple's attempt at harvesting more from opensource effort and its available on other x86 machines _______________________________________________ *Good judgement comes from Experience.* *Most of that comes from Bad Judgement.* _______________________________________________ * * 2011/11/11 Alan Orth <alan.orth@gmail.com>

Hey,

What Apple is doing with Mac OS X is completely legal. They're using code from the *BSD projects (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc), which are all licensed under the BSD license. The BSD license is not like the GPL; it allows you to use open-source code commercially without releasing your modifications to the source code. That's why corporations like BSD-licensed code and fear the GPL. ;)

Alan

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:30 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Thnks guys for the response. Unfortunately I don't have the time to discover yet another "Open Source" system while could be the same people who probably get funding from off-shoot of some unknown or undeclared enterprise. Some food for thought for the Open and Free software evangelists... your highly valued UNIX based kernel ( FREE ) is the biggest billion dollar industry today. I know understand why Wall-Street-Protests are gaining recognition. Cheers. :-) _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------

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Why restrict it? Not rocket science - if you control the hardware then you can optimize your code for the same. You don't need to worry about other manufacturers. This is why Macs just work. BIOS, drivers, etc are written and optimized for one set of known hardware. There will never be surprises. On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:01 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

@Alan,

The issues are not about legalities. I can install FreeBSD and M$ on any machine I choose, why restrict me on MAC? Even at Enterprise level, I still have a choice on hardware when it comes to M$. Why make a super proprietary OS system and super restrict it to specific hardware?

I'm still waiting to read comments from fellow Open and Free Software groups that can deny they own at least one device of the most restrictive devices and system. :-)

Rgds.

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Alan Orth <alan.orth@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hey,

What Apple is doing with Mac OS X is completely legal. They're using code from the *BSD projects (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc), which are all licensed under the BSD license. The BSD license is not like the GPL; it allows you to use open-source code commercially without releasing your modifications to the source code. That's why corporations like BSD-licensed code and fear the GPL. ;)

Alan

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:30 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Thnks guys for the response. Unfortunately I don't have the time to discover yet another "Open Source" system while could be the same people who probably get funding from off-shoot of some unknown or undeclared enterprise. Some food for thought for the Open and Free software evangelists... your highly valued UNIX based kernel ( FREE ) is the biggest billion dollar industry today. I know understand why Wall-Street-Protests are gaining recognition. Cheers. :-)

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Hehe.. @Rad. Wacha uwongo. :-) Then compare hardware costs? On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

Why restrict it?

Not rocket science - if you control the hardware then you can optimize your code for the same. You don't need to worry about other manufacturers.

This is why Macs just work. BIOS, drivers, etc are written and optimized for one set of known hardware. There will never be surprises.

@aki, Heh, it boils down to differing opinions of the word "freedom." ;) GPL's definition of freedom is a "viral" one, meaning that derivatives of GPL software must also be be GPL. To the BSD people this is restrictive. BSD's definition is a less-restrictive freedom, in that you can do "whatever the fuck" you want to do with it, including print it on a roll of toilet paper and wipe your ___ with it. You can also choose to give back if you want. There is no obligation. :) Also, while they're similar UNIX-like OSes, FreeBSD and Mac OS X don't share much more than the kernel. Apple's userland is heavily modified, and the windowing environment is as proprietary as they come. Darwin's only useful if you're into computer science research basically! Alan On 11/11/2011 12:01 PM, aki wrote:

@Alan,

The issues are not about legalities. I can install FreeBSD and M$ on any machine I choose, why restrict me on MAC? Even at Enterprise level, I still have a choice on hardware when it comes to M$. Why make a super proprietary OS system and super restrict it to specific hardware?

I'm still waiting to read comments from fellow Open and Free Software groups that can deny they own at least one device of the most restrictive devices and system. :-)

Rgds.

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Alan Orth <alan.orth@gmail.com <mailto:alan.orth@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hey,

What Apple is doing with Mac OS X is completely legal. They're using code from the *BSD projects (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc), which are all licensed under the BSD license. The BSD license is not like the GPL; it allows you to use open-source code commercially without releasing your modifications to the source code. That's why corporations like BSD-licensed code and fear the GPL. ;)

Alan

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:30 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com <mailto:aki275@gmail.com>> wrote: > Thnks guys for the response. Unfortunately I don't have the time to discover > yet another "Open Source" system while could be the same people who probably > get funding from off-shoot of some unknown or undeclared enterprise. Some > food for thought for the Open and Free software evangelists... your highly > valued UNIX based kernel ( FREE ) is the biggest billion dollar industry > today. > I know understand why Wall-Street-Protests are gaining recognition. > Cheers. :-)

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-- Alan Orth alan.orth@gmail.com http://alaninkenya.org http://mjanja.co.ke "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone." -Bjarne Stroustrup, inventor of C++

Mind if i ask why there's so much of an issue regarding Mac OS? I've done some checking in to the differences between a high spec Hackintosh and a High Spec Mac. There is a difference. And i know this as much as the next person who's done his / her research on the matter. Mac OS is written to work with the Apple Hardware. This was true with the Motorola chipset and is as true now. The next phase will involve a completely new generation of Mac's i'm putting my bet on Summer 2012 with the A7 or A8 processors working at probably what would be the eventual double of a quad i7 or more. Apple has always had the mind to be different. What will set them apart now is going to be as revolutionary as the G5 in it's day. While we're talking about different ways to work with OSX on a machine, VMWare is another option. There's an open install somewhere on the torrent-scapes which also entails how to install OSX as though it's running native on your PC from boot. While i agree that there is usage of Unix, keep in mind, that they're using the same Kernel you have access to. The primary difference is the development of the way they're using it and that's what they're selling, as of October 26th 2007, Mac OS X was declared a flavor of Unix. Albeit it's not a free version, it is still a flavor. Wikipedia: *Mac OS X* (pronounced /ˈmæk ˌoʊ ˌɛs ˈtɛn/<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English> )[7] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#cite_note-ten_not_x-6> is a series of Unix <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix>-based operating systems<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system>and graphical user interfaces <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_user_interface>developed, marketed, and sold by Apple Inc. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.> Since 2002, Mac OS X has been included with all new Macintosh<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh>computer systems. Mac OS X is based upon the Mach kernel<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_kernel> .[13] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#cite_note-12> Certain parts from FreeBSD <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD>'s and NetBSD<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBSD>'s implementation of Unix <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix> were incorporated in NeXTSTEP <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXTSTEP>, the core of Mac OS X. NeXTSTEP was the object-oriented operating system<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_operating_system>developed by Steve Jobs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs>' company NeXT<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT>after he left Apple in 1985. [14] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#cite_note-13> While Jobs was away from Apple, Apple tried to create a "next-generation" OS through the Taligent <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taligent>, Copland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_%28operating_system%29>and Gershwin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gershwin_operating_system> projects, with little success.[15]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#cite_note-14> Eventually, NeXT's OS, then called OPENSTEP<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStep>, was selected to be the basis for Apple's next OS, and Apple purchased NeXT outright.[16] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#cite_note-15> Steve Jobs returned to Apple as interim CEO, and later became CEO, shepherding the transformation of the programmer-friendly OPENSTEP into a system that would be adopted by Apple's primary market of home users and creative professionals. The project was first known as *Rhapsody<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhapsody_%28operating_system%29> * and was later renamed to *Mac OS X*.[17]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#cite_note-16> Mac OS X Server 1.x, was incompatible with software designed for the original Mac OS and had no support for Apple's own IEEE 1394 interface<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1394_interface>(FireWire). Mac OS X 10.x included more backward compatibility <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_compatibility> and functionality by including the Carbon API<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_API>as well as FireWire support. As the operating system evolved, it moved away from the legacy Mac OS to an emphasis on new "digital lifestyle" applications such as the iLife <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILife> suite, enhanced business applications (iWork <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IWork>), and integrated home entertainment (the Front Row<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_Row_%28software%29>media center). [18] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#cite_note-17> Each version also included modifications to the general interface, such as the brushed metal<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushed_Metal_%28interface%29>appearance added in version 10.3, the non-pinstriped titlebar appearance in version 10.4, and in 10.5 the removal of the previous brushed metal styles in favor of the "Unified" gradient window style.[19]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#cite_note-18> [20] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#cite_note-19> Given that you now Know that ( info above ) can you still argue that you're buying a Free System? there's a lot that's gone in to it. I'll be here all week if you have any more questions. * W.* On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:42 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

@Alan,

Do you mean the same "free" kernel that just grossed billions in revenues? So remove the kernel, will the OS function? I'm certain the device will have an unsmiling face on boot-up.

Rgds.

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:28 PM, Alan Orth <alan.orth@gmail.com> wrote:

...

@aki,

Heh, it boils down to differing opinions of the word "freedom." ;)

GPL's definition of freedom is a "viral" one, meaning that derivatives of GPL software must also be be GPL. To the BSD people this is restrictive. BSD's definition is a less-restrictive freedom, in that you can do "whatever the fuck" you want to do with it, including print it on a roll of toilet paper and wipe your ___ with it. You can also choose to give back if you want. There is no obligation. :)

Also, while they're similar UNIX-like OSes, FreeBSD and Mac OS X don't share much more than the kernel. Apple's userland is heavily modified, and the windowing environment is as proprietary as they come. Darwin's only useful if you're into computer science research basically!

Alan

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Guys, we can go as much into the license and technicalities or the so called hardware advances of the totally closed system. Of course such customised views will produce very good and high spec products, but the shame is that the Open and Free Ware world have embraced the totally closed system with a religious passion. I'd think the biggest offenders are those who know the kernel well enough to know that they are over paying and the the ideals of the closed system goes against their passion for open or free software. If you are not religious enough or share a passion about what Open Standards, Systems and the core of Free Software foundations are, then this thread is not going anywhere. So far I've read justifications for a closed system, and that there is a middle ground for the third world. I support pro-closed system because it takes me a long time to put together a code for a specific function so it gives me a chance to appreciate how much efforts have gone into any OS or software production. However, If I supported Open Systems, I'd do it with the same passion. The bottomline is this : Learn OpenSource+FreeWare>Become Good at Open Source+FreeWare>Love the Unix Kernel>Buy and Sell Services on the Unix Kernel>Finally, buy the most expensive and closed system! @Alan, Care to comment on why iTunes and IPhone apps are so restrictive? Cheers. :-) On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Alan Orth <alan.orth@gmail.com> wrote:

@aki,

FreeBSD and Mac OS X both use kernels which are derived from Mach ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel)), but the two are only cousins. Also, the kernel is only a very small part of the operating system.

Mac OS X is much more than just a "pretty" version of FreeBSD!

I'm curious... what got you thinking about running OS X on your netbook in the first place? :)

Alan

Nope, am talking about those who are trying to tell the world about "Open-ness" while at the same time embracing "closed-ness". :-) On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:31 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

...

The bottomline is this :

Learn OpenSource+FreeWare>Become Good at Open Source+FreeWare>Love the Unix Kernel>Buy and Sell Services on the Unix Kernel>Finally, buy the most expensive and closed system!

Are you talking about yourself ?

Freedom of choice should allow one to purchase the OS and install as preferred, within the license requirements. I've been denied that individual right. What freedoms are you referring to? M$ as a proprietary vendor give me the freedom to make choices on hardware, what choice do I have with MAC? A case of technology totalitarianism. * * On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Ashok Hariharan <ashok@parliaments.info>wrote:

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:45 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Nope, am talking about those who are trying to tell the world about "Open-ness" while at the same time embracing "closed-ness". :-)

so its a "moral" issue ? well ... its freedom of choice ...whether you drink tap water or bottled water or both is upto you. i dont really care.

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:22 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

Freedom of choice should allow one to purchase the OS and install as preferred, within the license requirements. I've been denied that individual right. What freedoms are you referring to? M$ as a proprietary vendor give me the freedom to make choices on hardware, what choice do I have with MAC? A case of technology totalitarianism. * *

You had the freedom of choice not to buy it, just like the manufacture had a freedom of choice to sell a system pm specific hardware... you couldnt do a simple search before buying on whether it can be installed on any other computer ? You sound like the guy who I met at the airport once who was trying to take a flight to America. He was not allowed to board the plane because he didnt have a visa. I remember him threatening to sue the airline because they hadnt told him a visa was required when he bought the ticket !

I don't understand your argument. If you don't like MacOS s/w or hardware, who is forcing you to buy? Apple have every right to put restrictions, no matter how arbitrary to their software. It is THEIRS not OURS. This is like buying a probox and then complaining it doesn't have a v12 engine. On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:51 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:34 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info>wrote:

...

You had the freedom of choice not to buy it, just like the manufacture had a freedom of choice to sell a system pm specific hardware... you couldnt do a simple search before buying on whether it can be installed on any other computer ?

Suppose I don't like the aluminium crap housing and the hardware specs, as a technologist what are my options of creating my own system and specs running MAC OS?

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In that case Aki, why not use a tractor's engine in a probox? * W.* On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:04 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

Did you know that should I choose to, I can purchase a V12 engine and install it in a probox? Every hear of customization? :-)

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I don't understand your argument.

If you don't like MacOS s/w or hardware, who is forcing you to buy?

Apple have every right to put restrictions, no matter how arbitrary to their software. It is THEIRS not OURS.

This is like buying a probox and then complaining it doesn't have a v12 engine.

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@Aki. If this is such a big issue to you, i'm sure there's people who can customize a distribution and help re-write it to look and feel like Mac OS. That way the distro remains open and free to be installed.. anywhere. * W.* On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

This debate makes no sense.

MacOS X is licensed, not owned software.

You are licensed to use it. It is not yours.

Therefore if Apple say you must stand on your head in the morning before logging on -- guess what -- hop to it.

You cannot agree to the license and then start complaining later.

You knew what it said going in.

Whether the license terms make sense or not is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote:

...

In that case Aki, why not use a tractor's engine in a probox? * W.*

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:04 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Did you know that should I choose to, I can purchase a V12 engine and install it in a probox? Every hear of customization? :-)

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I don't understand your argument.

If you don't like MacOS s/w or hardware, who is forcing you to buy?

Apple have every right to put restrictions, no matter how arbitrary to their software. It is THEIRS not OURS.

This is like buying a probox and then complaining it doesn't have a v12 engine.

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On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:42 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

@Rad, it is the same M$ that allowed us as earlier hardware people to push the processors, memory and various hardware cards to the extremes. Evidence of after market cpu cooling kits was just the beginning. Who is this list has not pushed the CPUs to double speeds while gaming or video rendering, whilst having an external fan cooling the chipsets that heated to almost extreme heats? Has this been left to MAC OS, the tech world would have been left behind for many years.

wha ?? overclocking has very little to do with Microsoft, and all to do with the bios firmware (and the cpu and the gpu) .

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:18 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

Obviously apps running on M$ and overclocking in BIOS. How does one overclock a MAC...or is it still too backward to allow control of its hardware too? ;-)

No idea -- google is your friend.

Microsoft has nothing to do with overclocking, they're a software company. Overclocking is a function of the machine's hardware... specifically the CPU and the motherboard chipset. Furthermore, it's not a given all PCs support overclocking. If your device's CPU doesn't have modifiable clock multipliers then you're out of luck. Intel sells the "K" series CPUs (Core i7-2600K) which explicitly support overclocking. AMD has a similar overclock-friendly CPU line. These days Apple hardware uses Intel CPUs, but the ability to overclock is not "free", just like 75% of the other PCs out there... You can't overclock the Atom processor in your Netbook, but I don't hear you whining about that. Alan On 11/11/2011 04:33 PM, aki wrote:

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:26 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info <mailto:ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:18 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com <mailto:aki275@gmail.com>> wrote:

Obviously apps running on M$ and overclocking in BIOS. How does one overclock a MAC...or is it still too backward to allow control of its hardware too? ;-)

No idea -- google is your friend.

you've never done it on a MAC?! shocking discovery. So your MAC just looks good? Thank M$ and Intel for allowing you experience what hardware and over clocking is... :-)

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And please do not forget that you get 2 miserable USB ports. I hear no whining about this either. ;-) On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:58 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

@Alan, am quite aware of what runs where on a computer, even if you overclock, the OS has to run the apps. When I make postings here, its under the assumption that the reader already knows where and how the overclocking is done. Can a MAC be overclocked? Infact, with the new machines, the HDD and battery is built into the case. What will you then access? Firewire 800 in a daisy chain config? I also don't hear you whining about the price comparison either, especially on hardware. :-)

...

@james You're right, I should have quickly googled that. I shouldn't have said it as it detracted from my point. I was trying to point out that Apple is not special; there are many system vendors out there which don't explicitly support overclocking, it's not just Apple. So what. it doesn't mean you can't. I'm sure someone has done it. @aki You seem to have me pegged as a Mac user and a supporter of closed systems... I use Linux exclusively on my laptop and desktop, a personally-compiled CyanogenMod on my phone, OpenWRT on my router, I push code to github almost daily, and I donate $$$ to open-source software projects. I'm not the enemy, man! This conversation is all over the place... it's kinda counter productive. Alan On 11/11/2011 05:03 PM, James Nzomo wrote:

@Alan No overclocking on atom processors? Only on Core i7? Your fact checking abilities leave alot to be desired!

_______________________________________________

*Good judgement comes from Experience.* *Most of that comes from Bad Judgement.* _______________________________________________ ** * * **

2011/11/11 aki <aki275@gmail.com <mailto:aki275@gmail.com>>

And please do not forget that you get 2 miserable USB ports. I hear no whining about this either. ;-)

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:58 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com <mailto:aki275@gmail.com>> wrote:

@Alan, am quite aware of what runs where on a computer, even if you overclock, the OS has to run the apps. When I make postings here, its under the assumption that the reader already knows where and how the overclocking is done. Can a MAC be overclocked? Infact, with the new machines, the HDD and battery is built into the case. What will you then access? Firewire 800 in a daisy chain config? I also don't hear you whining about the price comparison either, especially on hardware. :-)

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@Ashok, just moving away a bit from the thread. What do you use linux for? Is it because it's free or because you love take the piss out of trying to figure out why things don't work as well as they should? What's the catch because am trying to think how it would be possible to try and get funding from venture capitalists e.g for free rent or even free energy. Someone needs to update us why the software industry is supposed to be free thus removing any level playing fields for many developers while everything else is pegged to commerce. How does the various funding to free linux work, where does the money come from? Anyone share insights. :-)

Mac is meant for people who want a good experience that works, not for the overclocking type.

And your point is..? On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:45 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

@Ashok, the only reason that you and others use linux/unix kernel for "free" is because of the hard work of student activists and the hacker activist communities in the early 90's that were anti- corporate. Keep in mind that the student and hacker activists have a roof over their heads because their govts provide the infrastructure, make enough money to pay for bills etc. However, it seems the concept of free software to open software is big business too. Some of the funds and grants contributors may also be DOD funded programs, the same DOD that produces weapons and technologies that kill worldwide. Other fundings could well be from unknown sources, including donations that are looking for tax exemptions.

The example of this is the issues between Ubuntu and Mint. Why the Ubuntu founder and financier does not think about creating free energy for South Africa is baffling. Energy costs that are driving poverty further. I also don't see the concept of Open Hardware that will be available for free thus reducing the poverty gaps.

I only see economic mischief in the so called open source/free software that the final frontier i.e Africa is trying so hard to embrace. Nothing is free.

Corrections welcome. :-)

Rgds.

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@Aki, Why the fixation with OSX? All the large scale enterprise IT providers have this.... HPUX, AIX from IBM, Solaris from SUN, which only work with their own RISC based CPU's. At the end of the day, for stability you need ecosystem control. Problem with Linux & Windows is that they are designed for *everyone* so you lose stability. On a lighter note, the HP Envy was designed to mimic the MacBook Pro in everything but OS... So you may not have Mac Envy, but your PC manufacturer does. On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:45 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

@Ashok, the only reason that you and others use linux/unix kernel for "free" is because of the hard work of student activists and the hacker activist communities in the early 90's that were anti- corporate. Keep in mind that the student and hacker activists have a roof over their heads because their govts provide the infrastructure, make enough money to pay for bills etc. However, it seems the concept of free software to open software is big business too. Some of the funds and grants contributors may also be DOD funded programs, the same DOD that produces weapons and technologies that kill worldwide. Other fundings could well be from unknown sources, including donations that are looking for tax exemptions.

The example of this is the issues between Ubuntu and Mint. Why the Ubuntu founder and financier does not think about creating *free energy for South Africa* is baffling. Energy costs that are driving poverty further. I also don't see the concept of Open Hardware that will be available for free thus reducing the poverty gaps.

I only see economic mischief in the so called open source/free software that the final frontier i.e Africa is trying so hard to embrace. Nothing is free.

Corrections welcome. :-)

Rgds.

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@Phares, inline below: :-) On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:

@Aki,

Why the fixation with OSX? All the large scale enterprise IT providers have this.... HPUX, AIX from IBM, Solaris from SUN, which only work with their own RISC based CPU's. At the end of the day, for stability you need ecosystem control. Problem with Linux & Windows is that they are designed for *everyone* so you lose stability.

The above are high end niche and cannot be categorised as popular operating systems.

On a lighter note, the HP Envy was designed to mimic the MacBook Pro in everything but OS... So you may not have Mac Envy, but your PC manufacturer does.

The Hp Envy and mac mini probook have almost similar prices. However when you purchase the Hp, it can run the popular Osés without any limitations whatsoever. You may not find the most upto date drivers etc but you can get it to work. Not Operating system look-alikes but the actual ones. Now why would hard-core unix lovers on open standards embrace totaly closed technology is also another question?

Inline below: :-) On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 12:11 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:45 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

...

@Ashok, the only reason that you and others use linux/unix kernel for "free" is because of the hard work of student activists and the hacker activist communities in the early 90's that were anti- corporate. Keep in mind that the student and hacker activists have a roof over their heads because their govts provide the infrastructure, make enough money to pay for bills etc.

However, it seems the concept of free software to open software is big

...

business too. Some of the funds and grants contributors may also be DOD funded programs, the same DOD that produces weapons and technologies that kill worldwide.

i hope you dont use or support any of the following appliances or technologies as they were all funded by the evil DOD : - microwave - gps - jet engine - satellite technology .....

Unlike your freeware, there are no pretenders in the above list. The commercial aspects are known, and we use the technology knowing what exactly the impacts are.

actually you should not even be reading this , since the internet itself was a DOD project.

...

Other fundings could well be from unknown sources, including donations that are looking for tax exemptions.

...

The example of this is the issues between Ubuntu and Mint. Why the Ubuntu founder and financier does not think about creating *free energy for South Africa* is baffling.

your ideas on what someone should be doing or not with their time and money is baffling to say the least.

lol! this is funny. I can imagine the visit to space would have been an eye opener for the founder of ubuntu. However, poverty and the wide gaps is not one of them. Freetime or another avenue to declare tax breaks? Your guess is as good as mine. :-)

Mac OS X is a high end niche product that many people have decided to pay for and purchase. The problem with Open Source is lack of clear goals, as you will discover when you try to install TV cards fro your Linux box. Gnome 3 is another example. A lot of effort is invested in matters that really do not improve userbility but which are meant to give more freedom. At some point, people find that they would rather do away with the freedom for efficiency. The same a toll road - fewer exits and entries (freedom) , costly (tolls) for efficiency. And some aspects of this free linux have been funded by the same DOD and other non-free companies. Most of the time, Open Source is used as a cost cutting measure to crowd source a solution, or to make it widely adopted for other benefits eg Android to sell Google Services

TV cards that were supported previously stop working in updates of the same distribution, hence lack of a goal. Why should an aupdate break functionality? Linux is notorious for this. Also that Realtek wireless drivers were available for Linux, but were left out as been "unclean" hence every kernel update meant recompling the drivers for wireless to work. They were eventually included as from some sub-kernel number. We all Gnome 3 is a pain, as it sought out to fix what was not broken in Gnome 2 , and actually reduced configuration opetions hence going against the notion of offering more freedom.

I think Apple has made the right decision for the systems. I don't see the point of even trying to support OS X on different platforms, as the unique synergy of hardware and software is what make their products do unique. They are trying to avoid Android-nization of their system, where we have so many different manufacturers with different flavours of one OS that is has become a nightmare to manage or to even update. When Apple releases a new OS, it is applied to al supported devices, but for Android, the experience is far from that, with different upgrade timelines for each manufacturer. Another important factor is that it is just easy to support uniform system. For those who have experiences Apple Support, they will attest that it is one of the best support systems in the entire consumer industry, and no other company can mtach that. If you don't like Apple or OS X or even iOS, get a Dell.

On 14 November 2011 14:02, James Nzomo <kazikubwa@gmail.com> wrote:

@Kiosh sorry I posted before reading your reply * * *"TV cards that were supported previously stop working in updates of the same distribution, hence lack of a goal."* lol. Then going by the same flawed reasoning, Apple & M$ also lack goals because there are numerous components (both SW and HW) that have lost compatibility because of upgrades on their OSes.

*

* *"Why should an aupdate break functionality? Linux is notorious for this"* All systems must break some functionality in order to provide improvements But you forget that Apple is the most notorious for this. How backward compatible do you think their products are compared with other platforms? Can you run a 2004 app

This I agree, but they do not do it in such a notorious manner as Linux which will do it every 6 months. At least other OS have a longer release cyclye and often provide backword compatibility for a number of new versions.

Drivers (& 3rd party apps) are maintained by their respective package maintainers. It is up to them to make sure their stuff is compatible with the latest Kernels NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Here lies the folly, The Kerne does not exist alone, and has to make sure that it supports the end user , who use hardware made by same firms. If a driver exists, all efforts should be made to include it, even if it does not meet criteria. Such should be so for critical hardware such as networking and display. The other issues should be sorted through lobbying.

About Gnome3, your issue is too general/ambiguous. Gnome3 topic is very wide. What do you find difficult to configure in GNOME3?

@Phillip About Apple customer support..Checkout :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Apple_Inc.#Quality_control_and_cus...

Try working with two apps in Gnome 3, and you will see where the problem is. It assumes that a user wants to use only one app, and refuses to provide a work around for those who need a taskbar for switching to two apps. The UI is nice for touch, but we arent there.

_______________________________________________

*Good judgement comes from Experience.* *Most of that comes from Bad Judgement.* _______________________________________________ *

*

2011/11/14 Philip Musyoki <pmusyoki@gmail.com>

...

I think Apple has made the right decision for the systems. I don't see the point of even trying to support OS X on different platforms, as the unique synergy of hardware and software is what make their products do unique.

They are trying to avoid Android-nization of their system, where we have so many different manufacturers with different flavours of one OS that is has become a nightmare to manage or to even update. When Apple releases a new OS, it is applied to al supported devices, but for Android, the experience is far from that, with different upgrade timelines for each manufacturer.

Another important factor is that it is just easy to support uniform system. For those who have experiences Apple Support, they will attest that it is one of the best support systems in the entire consumer industry, and no other company can mtach that.

If you don't like Apple or OS X or even iOS, get a Dell. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------

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Havden't thought of it that way. On 14 November 2011 14:15, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Dennis Kioko <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

...

This I agree, but they do not do it in such a notorious manner as Linux which will do it every 6 months. At least other OS have a longer release cyclye and often provide backword compatibility for a number of new versions.

...

But why do you upgrade the OS every 6 months ? For e.g. if you use a distro like Ubuntu - they have releases with distinct cycles and goals -- the LTS release (currently 10.04 ) and the regular 6 month cycle release (which is like running debian-testing ....and is really a "beta" ) . If you use a LTS release you upgrade every 18 months - and dont break that easy in upgrades.

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I would rather pay top dollar for Mac OS X, get the extra bettery life, protability and usability and not worry about frequent re-configurations - if that is what freedom means.

@Aki, you might find this article by Paul Hamming very interesting [ http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html ] Martin.

First of all, it really amuses me whenever one @Phillip talks about Android. His level of ignorance is (on Android) is amusing, to say the least. Anyway, what I get from Aki is he is wondering why supporters of OSF and all things open and free adopt Apple and its products. My attempt to answer would be because: 1) The solution works Sometimes you want a product that will work first time so you can concentrate on getting productive off the solution/product 2) Few people, at least in Africa, use open source out of principle. 3) Money is not a problem for Apple users http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20092784-71/study-android-users-sad-hicks-... 4) Linux for corporate desktop still wanting This is my own opinion. I have used OpenOffice, LibreOffice but still they are nowhere close to MS Office I attended a training by Oracle where they were making presentations in MS Powerpoint. For a company that for all intents and purposes OWNS OpenOffice, this is very telling. FYI, I have never used a Mac. Nor do I see myself using one soon. Most new laptops come pre-installed with genuine windows. PCLinuxOS is my dual boot. I never really got into the Ubuntu bandwagon As for Iphone, well, again, I havent used. But I have seen instances where my android phone lacks and an iphone wins big time. If these were critical for me, closed or not closed I would go for the Iphone On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 4:25 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

@Martin, thnks. The use of words like bang and olufsen , philips bring back what audio really should have been. There is no denying that Apple falls into that category, but locking down it''s OS to hardware is totally anti-development. This makes it the top most proprietary system, when compared to other paid OSés. If anyone can hack on Unix based platforms, there is no need to be paying top dollar for such. Apple's popularity maybe driven by design but the fact that middle income sectors have grown thus there is money to purchase such devices. In the recent riots in the UK, Apple's products were most wanted, driving a youth culture of devices rather than code.

Rgds.

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:

...

@Aki, you might find this article by Paul Hamming very interesting [ http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html ]

Martin.

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On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:57 AM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:

...

why supporters of OSF and all things open and free adopt Apple and its products.

what is the basis for that statement ? is there some hard evidence to state that conclusively ? i have been hear this from aki -- but its like very many of his other generalizations, nothing more.

+1

from what i have seen many of the adopters of apple products are switching from microsoft windows -- evidence also that iTunes (assuming people buy an ipod or iphone first and then make switch to an apple computer ) does not have a native linux client, but does have a native windows client.

...

2) Few people, at least in Africa, use open source out of principle.

I would say most people use open source not out of principle but for other reasons (e.g. because it just works / cost of ownership is lower / critical mass etc ). _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------

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Another thing is the the apple store terms and conditions, which effectively bans all FOSS programs, see: All Your Apps Are Belong to Apple. The iPhone Developer Program License Agreement. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/03/iphone-developer-program-license-agree... -- Best Regards, Christian Ledermann <*)))>{ If you save the living environment, the biodiversity that we have left, you will also automatically save the physical environment, too. But If you only save the physical environment, you will ultimately lose both. 1) Don’t drive species to extinction 2) Don’t destroy a habitat that species rely on. 3) Don’t change the climate in ways that will result in the above. }<(((*>

I used the Kalyway install to run Mac OS Leopard on a PC. It works easy if when the processor, motherboard and chipset and all from intel. If not, you may need to do some hacking. Had sound and wireless issues on a laptop with a via chipset. My former neighbour took it further and managed to upgrade to Snow Leopard after a few nights of bloody tears. All this is against Apples terms of use and is the Kalyway guys say its for 'testing purposes only' 2011/11/11 <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:18 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Obviously apps running on M$ and overclocking in BIOS. How does one overclock a MAC...or is it still too backward to allow control of its hardware too? ;-)

No idea -- google is your friend.

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So let me get this right. You're an open source kinda guy. You appreciate being able to tweak systems. You want to be able to run better systems on your machines. You aren't using a Mac. You want a Mac but don't have / won't spend the money to buy one. You're not sure why a large amount of dev's are switching to the Mac OS System. You're not comfortable paying someone who's building a system and it's hardware because it's a proprietary piece of equipment. Instead you'd rather work on an open machine ( PC ) where you'd like to install a closed operating system. You got upset because it wasn't a simple installation. Diagnosis: *You've got Mac Envy. Regarding Mac OS Training. Get on to a torrent site, download the Mac OS Training materials from peachpit, get the terry white training DVD's or the Lynda.com DVD's, train, do some practice exams online. Get on to Prometric, register. **Look for a location to register with, **Pay for your examination. Get the registration details and the date. Go and certify. *On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:18 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

Obviously apps running on M$ and overclocking in BIOS. How does one overclock a MAC...or is it still too backward to allow control of its hardware too? ;-)

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:03 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info>wrote:

...

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:42 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

...

@Rad, it is the same M$ that allowed us as earlier hardware people to push the processors, memory and various hardware cards to the extremes. Evidence of after market cpu cooling kits was just the beginning. Who is this list has not pushed the CPUs to double speeds while gaming or video rendering, whilst having an external fan cooling the chipsets that heated to almost extreme heats? Has this been left to MAC OS, the tech world would have been left behind for many years.

wha ?? overclocking has very little to do with Microsoft, and all to do with the bios firmware (and the cpu and the gpu) .

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Lol ama it not 4wd Sent from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "Rad!" <conradakunga@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:53:09 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Is Apple Hardware and OS the most proprietary systems ? _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke

@Ashok. sounds like you want to pick a fight. If yes, Don't. @Aki. I get what you're saying and i've been open-source since i was 13 ish. If i get you right, you're saying you're uncomfortable about the fact that dev's that you know who work and support the open source tech's are selling out? if that's what you're saying then i've got two takes on this.

From the standpoint of where i think you're coming from and being open source for a while too i strongly feel the loyalty you're talking about. I however am running all the three systems in my work / home environment for different things.

secondly and equally, maybe more important, for the choice others make, it's a free choice, there are no hard and fast rules to who an offender is and who is not, we're not at liberty to make this judgement. * W.* On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:31 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

...

The bottomline is this :

Learn OpenSource+FreeWare>Become Good at Open Source+FreeWare>Love the Unix Kernel>Buy and Sell Services on the Unix Kernel>Finally, buy the most expensive and closed system!

Are you talking about yourself ?

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On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:42 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you mean the same "free" kernel that just grossed billions in revenues? So remove the kernel, will the OS function? I'm certain the device will have an unsmiling face on boot-up.

what is your point ? are you in some way upset that a 'free' kernel was used to generate revenue ? well...you know there are people selling and making revenue from selling (free) water in bottles ...

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:30 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

get funding from off-shoot of some unknown or undeclared enterprise. Some food for thought for the Open and Free software evangelists... your highly valued UNIX based kernel ( FREE ) is the biggest billion dollar industry today.

Are you saying that as if its a bad thing ?

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:24 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:

@Ashok, I guess one should ask those Wall Street Protestors.

now why should i give a damn about those guys ?

What's your take on the MAC OS unable to install on a netbook?  :-)

Should Mac OS be installable on a netbook ?...they don't claim any such capability, so there shouldnt be that expectation either.