Reading .doc files from PHP is a real pain! I hope Python has an easier way of doing it. On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
That is fine, have never had an interest in Sudoku but I can learn the rules. Draughts on the other hand is more familiar.
The problem proposed by @Collins look more appealing since it is something most people can identify with. I might be wrong.
Martin.
On 6/27/12, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
draughts i meant
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I was about to suggest something more challenging that really pushed the limits of the language like a sudoku solver. Or rudimentary draughs
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com
wrote:
Ok, so everyone is scared sh!$ of coming up with a sample problem.... here is a sample problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- start.
Input form: collect personal data: name, date of birth, photo, place of birth and two upload fields, a photo and a .doc short description.
Output. 1: An ID design in PNG format with all these inbuilt... (forget fancy layout, just the elements positioned in a single .png file.
end.
evaluation: =>lines of code: =>external libraried (reinventing the wheel) =>clarity of the design. => maintainability...
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Rad, I tend to believe that this is a factor or the language itself since it makes it kind-of intuitive to build these frameworks in particular languages as opposed to others (sort-of some languages give a finer grain along which to work on.)
The most obvious example that comes to my mind is django which was originally written in PHP but development was ditched mid-way when the going really became uncomfortable and the project had to be restarted in Python. The same applies to RoR.
Martin.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com>
wrote:
That is precisely what i am suggesting.
As for your example of complete cms - almost all languages have application frameworks, component libraries, reusable modules. Isn't productivity a factor of these rather than the languages themselves?
On 27 Jun 2012 10:16, "Martin Chiteri" <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: > > @Peter, > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> Once in a while, Something at the back of my mind nudges me to
learn
>> Python, and the statements from @Dennis make this nudge a bit >> stronger. But >> this nudge has not acquired critical mass so it remains on my bucket >> list. >> >> Seeing as I work better with facts and figures, let me pose these >> questions to @Dennis and @Martin: >> >> 1. @Martin, you use the term "a lot less effort", in the choice >> between PHP and Python, can you provide an example, specific or >> general, >> that demonstrates in a measurable way that Python requires less >> effort that >> PHP to do the same thing? > > > I have seen complete C.M.Ss done in Python in 260 lines of code or > less. This includes all the instructions used to access the database, > the > admin interface but excluding the mark-up (html templates) and client > side > scripts (javascript). > >> >> 2. @Dennis, you say that you were able to achieve something using >> 10s >> LOCs in Python as opposed to 100s LOC in PHP, could you provide a bit >> more >> detailed example? >> > @Rad > > Someone can propose a problem and those who want can attack it with > different solutions in say PERL, JAVA, C#, VB.Net, Delphi, Ruby, PHP, > Python, etc. That might give a more objective measurement, no? > >> >> I am not asking for justification on which one is better, I just you >> to explain in a bit more detail, so that I can see this issue from >> your >> perspective. >> >> >> > > Martin. > > -- > "There are two types of programming languages: Those that people > complain about and those people don't use." [ Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ > 0x ] > >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Martin Chiteri >> <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Well, >>> >>> @Phares, if you looked at my first remarks I made it clear that at >>> the end of the day, it really does not matter what language(s) you >>> use. I >>> will say this again in summary. What you achieve with your tools is >>> almost >>> entirely a factor of: >>> >>> 1) Your knowledge and experience with it and the associated >>> tool(s), >>> 2) Your understanding of the problem set and probably how you >>> decide >>> to approach it in its earliest stages. >>> >>> There might be more reasons but am not really interested in them at >>> this point. If everything else I say is irrelevant, at least don't >>> forget >>> the two premises above. >>> >>> What you should understand is that language choices have never been >>> rational choices as much as we would expect them to be. Most of the >>> time, we >>> have to make compromises even though it might be obvious that there >>> are >>> better ways to accomplish our tasks. For example you will see a huge >>> Python >>> shop like Google chose the Dalvik V.M (yeah that is right) as the >>> main >>> platform for the Android family of devices simply because it has a >>> syntax >>> which closely resembles that of the JAVA programming language. The >>> idea was >>> to hook onto the large community that had grown around JAVA. The >>> software >>> development market place works in more or less same fashion. >>> >>> I also never contradicted the fact that you can build awesome >>> applications in the said "inferior" languages. Facebook / Wordpress >>> / Flickr >>> / Joomla / SugarCRM among others are great examples. My main point >>> is that >>> it takes *A LOT LESS effort* to do so in other languages and tools >>> for >>> average developers. That is what @Dennis was highlighting which sort >>> of got >>> lost in the point of who is right and who is wrong. I would bet >>> money that >>> if Facebook was to be reWritten from scratch for instance, chances >>> are high >>> that it will not be done in PHP. At the moment, it actually works as >>> an >>> extension of PHP written in highly optimized C++ executing as an >>> Apache >>> module for reasons of performance. >>> >>> Fact: Microsoft would rather have developers to not write more code >>> in either VB6 and even VB.NET preferrably over C# though this is a >>> decision >>> not in their hands right now. I can't find links to articles but it >>> is >>> Microsoft that started the campaign, "Friends don't let friends >>> program in >>> V.B 6" in an attempt to kill the product. That speaks volumes >>> ....... >>> >>> <offTopic> Arguments against UNIX ( and C by extension) are >>> degenerative since the "more dominant" Windows / most other >>> compilers are >>> either modeled or were originally designed after the former. The >>> Windows >>> program is written in C (a native on UNIX), most systems' >>> programming will >>> be done in C and most of the "Interesting stuff" always happens on >>> UNIX >>> (think Linux and Macs ...). Microsoft used to support their version >>> of UNIX >>> called XENIX before they made it big with Win ..... </offTopic> >>> >>> Martin. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:50 PM, <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm inclined to agree with Collins + Conrad and disagree with >>>> Martin >>>> + Dennis. Human nature never changes, there's an old adage that a >>>> bad >>>> workman blames his tools. >>>> >>>> I am not a seasoned software developer, however, I have a few >>>> cases >>>> I can explore. >>>> >>>> [1] When I was in high school, we had a system that was written in >>>> the early 90's that was used to manage and run conduct/grades for >>>> the >>>> students. That system run until last year, close to 17 years later. >>>> It was >>>> written in dBase. Easy to maintain, stable, easy to back up. It >>>> worked. It >>>> was finally replaced last year by a system running on PHP as web >>>> functionality was requested by the teachers. >>>> >>>> [2] Facebook - the worlds largest social network still uses PHP. >>>> It >>>> works. I'm sure none of the language purists here refuse to use >>>> Facebook on >>>> account of its platform. We have technically 'superior' platforms. >>>> Additionally, if a job opening at Facebook for senior PHP developer >>>> at >>>> Facebook opened up, I'm quite sure some of the disdain for the >>>> language >>>> would be sacrificed on account of the exposure. >>>> >>>> [3] VB6 has a longer shelf life than Windows XP >>>> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-sti... >>>> >>>> My point is that there is more to software development than choice >>>> of language. When looking at OS architecture, one can make the case >>>> that >>>> UNIX based operating systems are better. Nobody really cares, >>>> desktop battle >>>> is dominated by the 'inferior' Windows Platform. Software >>>> developers often >>>> get lost in analysis paralysis, trying to figure out the best tool >>>> to use >>>> for a particular problem, forgetting that they are consulted to >>>> solve a >>>> problem. Nobody (users) care what language your application is >>>> built on. >>>> They care that it works. Toyota's are the most popular cars in >>>> Kenya, they >>>> are *not* the best cars. When building an app, it might make more >>>> sense to >>>> use VB as opposed to Python if its not a web based application (if >>>> it runs >>>> on Windows, integration is better and you have a steeper learning >>>> curve for >>>> developers). >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Kenya >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com> >>>> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke >>>> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:41:49 >>>> To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>>> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> >>>> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Friends don't let friends code in VB or >>>> PHP. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Skunkworks mailing list >>>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>>> ------------ >>>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> Skunkworks Rules >>>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>>> ------------ >>>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Skunkworks mailing list >>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Regards, >> Peter Karunyu >> ------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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