Will .Net kill JAVA .... someday ??
There has been some debate about whether .Net will kill Java some day @ http://www.linkedin.com/groupAnswers?viewQuestionAndAnswers=&gid=43315&discu... My position is that .Net will not and does not need to kill Java. So no flames ..... Here are some comments posted that concur with my own observations & sentiments .. ________ Ashish Kaila<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=6141554&authToken=wFJ8&authType=name> As much as I wish, .NET will not entirely replace Java - is what seems to be the case. .NET is not so much prevalent in mobile space as Java is. Many players such as IBM and Google are still pushing for Java as for non-MS OS Java is the only major managed platform (I still don't think Mono is anything beyond concept level yet and not ready for enterprise apps certainly and the sole reason for many shops to use linux is to prevent licensing cost). Eclipse has certainly prolonged Java's lifespan coupled with Java -> JavaScript tools that Google uses for its web suite such as maps. ________ Derrick Haller<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=14077990&authToken=y8PC&authType=name> Until .NET can run on a UNIX/Linux machine it will never "kill" java. I feel Oracle will do more damage to java than .NET. I believe they have already announced they rae not supporting older versions of Java. .NET will run on the majority of windows platforms while Java will do the same with UNIX although I do agree that Java has not made nearly as many enhancements to their architecture compared with .NET__________ Brian H. Madsen [MVP]<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=5883345&authToken=Wm2n&authType=name> Horses for courses.... as any tradesman would tell you, it's about using the right tool for the job. Insofar as will .Net "kill" JAVA - then i don't think so. Will more and more users migrate from JAVA to .Net? yes, certainly so - especially with adoption rates as high as they are these days. So, why don't I think it will "kill" it off - well, corporations has invested millions upon millions on systems that these days are vital to either their core products, services or simply their internal systems - as we well know, there's houndreds and thousands of legacy systems in place today that rates back to before .Net was even here. These systems are still actively being used and modules are built to extend their initial implementation reason. What i am very pleased by, is that there's whole communities out there today that focuses solely on adapting .Net to their base systems - be it MONO or other similar platforms. This tells me that .Net is definitely here to stay. _______ Aaron Erickson<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1891482&authToken=X0jq&authType=name> James, please forgive me, but is not Java now an Oracle product? Oracle has an absolutley horrible reputation in the area of developer support. If anything, Oracle tends to destroy programming platforms, not help them. As for various versions of .NET, it simply is not true that each version is substantially different. 2.0 added generics to the core framework, 3.0 added WCF, WPF, WF, and a few other APIs, 3.5 added LINQ, 4.0 added dynamic. The ecosystem around .NET is amazingly large, yet, the core bits (IL) you run an app with have not changed all that dramatically since .NET 1.0. To say they are different is to really misrepresent what has happened. MS has a core product, it's called .NET, and it is on it's 4th major release. As for the language debate, I addressed that earlier. C# and Java will co-evolve. Even Java people will say that C# is ahead right now, but Java will probably catch up at some point. Obj-C will recede, and a mobile framework that enables you to program the iPhone/Droid/etc. with a common language (again, probably both C# and Java) will emerge. Simply too much economic incentive to take mainstream development languages and techniques to the mobile form factor. Monotouch has already proven technical viability. Java moving there too is only a matter of time. ____________ Vadim Katsman<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=3353777&authToken=q3G7&authType=name> Looking comments of this discussion, it actually reminded me the grand phylosophical discussion - Java vs. Microsoft - I really refer to 2 main threads of development architectures, design patterns, tool families, run-time frameworks, deployment strategies, toolsets, languages, libraries etc. - what really constitutes one platform vs. another. Since .Net Framework is a most modern (for the tme being) platform on Microsoft line, the question is asked about lifespan Java vs. .Net but it is really a question about Java path vs. path following Microsoft development vision, ideology and platform, and one of potential values of this discussion is to review and validate development trends - for newbies to select the path (which is really career determining decision), for others to adjust long-term commitments.(either to switch either way or to stay if both paths are viable). While .Net Framework is the best development platform to date offered by Microsoft (and I stayed in Micrsoft camp for at least 15 years), it will be replaced with something else in future (it is not matter of "if" but "when"), but this is rather to advantage of the overall platform, which is not .Net but tuned to current delivery targets DNIA architecture - distributed network internet architecture - a platform to develop and maintain enterprise solutions, which happen to require today to become RIA, but tomorrow it will be something else (such as pointed out in other comments mobile applications). I have on my machine all Visual Studios since 1998 and evolving together with Microsoft vision was a relatively smooth process - what we do today has very direct, natural and consistent roots from earlier technologies - COM/DCOM/COM+/WSDL, DAO/RDO/ADO/ADO.Net etc. - and because of it is maintained by one company all of these are supported to date. Just few weeks ago I was assisting the client with migration from NT40 to W2K3 and exposing legacy COM+ application as web services - the best testament of long life time of the development thread today called .Net but in reality part of long rooted, historically stable and would be supported in future vision to build modern solutions at all levels. __________ Brian Bass<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=9399040&authToken=EPyn&authType=name> While I am an avid C# programmer I have also been consulting for over 10 years and have found the reverse to be true. Because Java was the hot language in the early 90s there is a big glut of Java developers already out in the marketplace. Also, those old developers are now managers and directors of IT. Recently I found out an old employers director of IT was once a Java developer and has now mandated that all new programming is to be developed in Java. I worked at Nokia a couple of years ago and was on one of the only .Net teams there. The rest were Java. It is almost as if it is a religious war when you talk about Java vs .Net. I recently defended .Net to people and the fact is always that .Net kills Java in speed tests, lines of code and time to market all the way around. If the business world was only forward thinking all projects would be developed in C#. But in the balance sheet world Java requires no money for licensing, has more open source add ins and there are more Java developers so you don't have to pay them as much as a .Net developer. The business director has to ask - will this software do the same thing as the other language and the answer is usually yes. Then the director has to ask some questions - What have we been using in the past? Is it worth it to change? Would hardware be a limitation - Wintel or Sun? and many other business specific questions. Java seems to be winning out in that arena because it is hard to put a dollar value on performance and productivity. I also recently worked at a non-profit and they used projects from colleges to enhance their websites. The colleges would turn out AJAX with Java Beans and Hibernate web apps. I converted them to ASP.Net AJAX and found that the college kids of today are being taught by their professors that Java is the top language. These professors are ones who got their degrees at the height of Java. But, if the college kids were smart they would learn .Net instead and be able to command a higher salary in the marketplace. So I don't think Java is going to be killed any time soon. I think the old systems will always be put on an upgrade path to the next version of the language they were originally developed in. It is the new development where .Net should win, but that is all based on whether the client is from a Java world or Microsoft world. The fact is there are more people that come from a Java world than .Net. There are more shops that utilize Java. I just look at all of the open source projects and Google APIs and can see that Google is a little anti-Microsoft in their tools. It is frustrating because .Net is soo much better than Java and Google is ignoring a growing segment of developers. I think the turning point will be Windows 7 penetration. Since the OS is popular and shops are actually willing to migrate old NT servers to Windows 7 the .Net Framework is ready, willing and able to be utilized. Over the years the Java operating systems will lug behind even more and will eventually fade away. Maybe in 20 years there will be new languages, but I am willing to bet the .Net framework is here to stay and will eventually dominate the software and web industries. __________ Jeff Potts<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=41531057&authToken=PoJF&authType=name> "Does anyone agree or disagree? ==> Larry Ellison et. al. are going to train customers and favor Oracle (aka proprietary) over Java for BI, BPM, etc. That is not good news for Java." --------------------------------------------------------------------- It may or may not affect JAVA. Then again, Oracle's proprietary development system is not a broad-based development language. It has a specific focus, and it has been around for long enough that if elimination was the motive, JAVA would be past history. And, as for Bill Gates being the son of the Devil, some anti-establishment types consider Oracle to be the Seventh Level of Hell. I've been developing Microsoft apps since Windows was version 2.0. In that time I've seen all the trends that have popped up between then and now. There is a big enough "maverick" contingent out there that will absolutely refuse to follow any path forged by a big, evil corporation bent on profit (perish the thought) no matter how much easier it makes their lives. One only need to look at the fact that Borland and Delphi are still around (and still have a sizable application/developer base) to see the absolute worst that could happen to JAVA. JAVA isn't going anywhere far. So don't fret. <http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=10018040&authToken=IGDj&authType=name>
Interesting..............as a developer I always think its good to have an open mind. use the right tool for the right job. If C# does the job for you, use it. If its Assembly, then go ahead and use it. On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Murigi Muraya <mmskunkworks@gmail.com>wrote:
There has been some debate about whether .Net will kill Java some day @ http://www.linkedin.com/groupAnswers?viewQuestionAndAnswers=&gid=43315&discu...
My position is that .Net will not and does not need to kill Java. So no flames .....
Here are some comments posted that concur with my own observations & sentiments ..
________
Ashish Kaila<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=6141554&authToken=wFJ8&authType=name> As much as I wish, .NET will not entirely replace Java - is what seems to be the case. .NET is not so much prevalent in mobile space as Java is. Many players such as IBM and Google are still pushing for Java as for non-MS OS Java is the only major managed platform (I still don't think Mono is anything beyond concept level yet and not ready for enterprise apps certainly and the sole reason for many shops to use linux is to prevent licensing cost). Eclipse has certainly prolonged Java's lifespan coupled with Java -> JavaScript tools that Google uses for its web suite such as maps. ________
Derrick Haller<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=14077990&authToken=y8PC&authType=name> Until .NET can run on a UNIX/Linux machine it will never "kill" java. I feel Oracle will do more damage to java than .NET. I believe they have already announced they rae not supporting older versions of Java. .NET will run on the majority of windows platforms while Java will do the same with UNIX although I do agree that Java has not made nearly as many enhancements to their architecture compared with .NET__________
Brian H. Madsen [MVP]<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=5883345&authToken=Wm2n&authType=name> Horses for courses....
as any tradesman would tell you, it's about using the right tool for the job.
Insofar as will .Net "kill" JAVA - then i don't think so. Will more and more users migrate from JAVA to .Net? yes, certainly so - especially with adoption rates as high as they are these days.
So, why don't I think it will "kill" it off - well, corporations has invested millions upon millions on systems that these days are vital to either their core products, services or simply their internal systems - as we well know, there's houndreds and thousands of legacy systems in place today that rates back to before .Net was even here. These systems are still actively being used and modules are built to extend their initial implementation reason.
What i am very pleased by, is that there's whole communities out there today that focuses solely on adapting .Net to their base systems - be it MONO or other similar platforms. This tells me that .Net is definitely here to stay. _______
Aaron Erickson<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1891482&authToken=X0jq&authType=name> James, please forgive me, but is not Java now an Oracle product? Oracle has an absolutley horrible reputation in the area of developer support. If anything, Oracle tends to destroy programming platforms, not help them.
As for various versions of .NET, it simply is not true that each version is substantially different. 2.0 added generics to the core framework, 3.0 added WCF, WPF, WF, and a few other APIs, 3.5 added LINQ, 4.0 added dynamic. The ecosystem around .NET is amazingly large, yet, the core bits (IL) you run an app with have not changed all that dramatically since .NET 1.0. To say they are different is to really misrepresent what has happened.
MS has a core product, it's called .NET, and it is on it's 4th major release.
As for the language debate, I addressed that earlier. C# and Java will co-evolve. Even Java people will say that C# is ahead right now, but Java will probably catch up at some point. Obj-C will recede, and a mobile framework that enables you to program the iPhone/Droid/etc. with a common language (again, probably both C# and Java) will emerge. Simply too much economic incentive to take mainstream development languages and techniques to the mobile form factor. Monotouch has already proven technical viability. Java moving there too is only a matter of time. ____________
Vadim Katsman<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=3353777&authToken=q3G7&authType=name> Looking comments of this discussion, it actually reminded me the grand phylosophical discussion - Java vs. Microsoft - I really refer to 2 main threads of development architectures, design patterns, tool families, run-time frameworks, deployment strategies, toolsets, languages, libraries etc. - what really constitutes one platform vs. another.
Since .Net Framework is a most modern (for the tme being) platform on Microsoft line, the question is asked about lifespan Java vs. .Net but it is really a question about Java path vs. path following Microsoft development vision, ideology and platform, and one of potential values of this discussion is to review and validate development trends - for newbies to select the path (which is really career determining decision), for others to adjust long-term commitments.(either to switch either way or to stay if both paths are viable).
While .Net Framework is the best development platform to date offered by Microsoft (and I stayed in Micrsoft camp for at least 15 years), it will be replaced with something else in future (it is not matter of "if" but "when"), but this is rather to advantage of the overall platform, which is not .Net but tuned to current delivery targets DNIA architecture - distributed network internet architecture - a platform to develop and maintain enterprise solutions, which happen to require today to become RIA, but tomorrow it will be something else (such as pointed out in other comments mobile applications).
I have on my machine all Visual Studios since 1998 and evolving together with Microsoft vision was a relatively smooth process - what we do today has very direct, natural and consistent roots from earlier technologies - COM/DCOM/COM+/WSDL, DAO/RDO/ADO/ADO.Net etc. - and because of it is maintained by one company all of these are supported to date.
Just few weeks ago I was assisting the client with migration from NT40 to W2K3 and exposing legacy COM+ application as web services - the best testament of long life time of the development thread today called .Net but in reality part of long rooted, historically stable and would be supported in future vision to build modern solutions at all levels. __________
Brian Bass<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=9399040&authToken=EPyn&authType=name> While I am an avid C# programmer I have also been consulting for over 10 years and have found the reverse to be true. Because Java was the hot language in the early 90s there is a big glut of Java developers already out in the marketplace. Also, those old developers are now managers and directors of IT. Recently I found out an old employers director of IT was once a Java developer and has now mandated that all new programming is to be developed in Java. I worked at Nokia a couple of years ago and was on one of the only .Net teams there. The rest were Java. It is almost as if it is a religious war when you talk about Java vs .Net.
I recently defended .Net to people and the fact is always that .Net kills Java in speed tests, lines of code and time to market all the way around. If the business world was only forward thinking all projects would be developed in C#. But in the balance sheet world Java requires no money for licensing, has more open source add ins and there are more Java developers so you don't have to pay them as much as a .Net developer. The business director has to ask - will this software do the same thing as the other language and the answer is usually yes. Then the director has to ask some questions - What have we been using in the past? Is it worth it to change? Would hardware be a limitation - Wintel or Sun? and many other business specific questions. Java seems to be winning out in that arena because it is hard to put a dollar value on performance and productivity.
I also recently worked at a non-profit and they used projects from colleges to enhance their websites. The colleges would turn out AJAX with Java Beans and Hibernate web apps. I converted them to ASP.Net AJAX and found that the college kids of today are being taught by their professors that Java is the top language. These professors are ones who got their degrees at the height of Java. But, if the college kids were smart they would learn .Net instead and be able to command a higher salary in the marketplace.
So I don't think Java is going to be killed any time soon. I think the old systems will always be put on an upgrade path to the next version of the language they were originally developed in. It is the new development where .Net should win, but that is all based on whether the client is from a Java world or Microsoft world. The fact is there are more people that come from a Java world than .Net. There are more shops that utilize Java. I just look at all of the open source projects and Google APIs and can see that Google is a little anti-Microsoft in their tools. It is frustrating because .Net is soo much better than Java and Google is ignoring a growing segment of developers.
I think the turning point will be Windows 7 penetration. Since the OS is popular and shops are actually willing to migrate old NT servers to Windows 7 the .Net Framework is ready, willing and able to be utilized. Over the years the Java operating systems will lug behind even more and will eventually fade away. Maybe in 20 years there will be new languages, but I am willing to bet the .Net framework is here to stay and will eventually dominate the software and web industries. __________
Jeff Potts<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=41531057&authToken=PoJF&authType=name> "Does anyone agree or disagree? ==> Larry Ellison et. al. are going to train customers and favor Oracle (aka proprietary) over Java for BI, BPM, etc. That is not good news for Java."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It may or may not affect JAVA. Then again, Oracle's proprietary development system is not a broad-based development language. It has a specific focus, and it has been around for long enough that if elimination was the motive, JAVA would be past history.
And, as for Bill Gates being the son of the Devil, some anti-establishment types consider Oracle to be the Seventh Level of Hell.
I've been developing Microsoft apps since Windows was version 2.0. In that time I've seen all the trends that have popped up between then and now. There is a big enough "maverick" contingent out there that will absolutely refuse to follow any path forged by a big, evil corporation bent on profit (perish the thought) no matter how much easier it makes their lives. One only need to look at the fact that Borland and Delphi are still around (and still have a sizable application/developer base) to see the absolute worst that could happen to JAVA.
JAVA isn't going anywhere far. So don't fret.
<http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=10018040&authToken=IGDj&authType=name> _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet
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Ahhh the grand old debate. I would have quickly agreed with you, but Oracle has bought Sun, which own's Java, thus Oracle now has Java. In the short run I dont expect much difference, but in the long run I do expect Oracle to spin Java toward it's product line. I wouldn't be surprised if Oracle tries to build an entire suite of development tools for developers: Databases (Oracle now has MySQL), Programming Language (They have Java), Enterprise solutions (J2EE), Web Applications (GlassFish Server, ...), Operating System (Solaris), ... Time will tell... --- On Sun, 1/17/10, Kenn Lisudza <kennlisudza@gmail.com> wrote: From: Kenn Lisudza <kennlisudza@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Will .Net kill JAVA .... someday ?? To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 1:04 PM Interesting..............as a developer I always think its good to have an open mind. use the right tool for the right job. If C# does the job for you, use it. If its Assembly, then go ahead and use it. On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Murigi Muraya <mmskunkworks@gmail.com> wrote: There has been some debate about whether .Net will kill Java some day @ http://www.linkedin.com/groupAnswers?viewQuestionAndAnswers=&gid=43315&discu... My position is that .Net will not and does not need to kill Java. So no flames ..... Here are some comments posted that concur with my own observations & sentiments .. ________ Ashish Kaila As much as I wish, .NET will not entirely replace Java - is what seems to be the case. .NET is not so much prevalent in mobile space as Java is. Many players such as IBM and Google are still pushing for Java as for non-MS OS Java is the only major managed platform (I still don't think Mono is anything beyond concept level yet and not ready for enterprise apps certainly and the sole reason for many shops to use linux is to prevent licensing cost). Eclipse has certainly prolonged Java's lifespan coupled with Java -> JavaScript tools that Google uses for its web suite such as maps. ________ Derrick Haller Until .NET can run on a UNIX/Linux machine it will never "kill" java. I feel Oracle will do more damage to java than .NET. I believe they have already announced they rae not supporting older versions of Java. .NET will run on the majority of windows platforms while Java will do the same with UNIX although I do agree that Java has not made nearly as many enhancements to their architecture compared with .NET__________ Brian H. Madsen [MVP] Horses for courses.... as any tradesman would tell you, it's about using the right tool for the job. Insofar as will .Net "kill" JAVA - then i don't think so. Will more and more users migrate from JAVA to .Net? yes, certainly so - especially with adoption rates as high as they are these days. So, why don't I think it will "kill" it off - well, corporations has invested millions upon millions on systems that these days are vital to either their core products, services or simply their internal systems - as we well know, there's houndreds and thousands of legacy systems in place today that rates back to before .Net was even here. These systems are still actively being used and modules are built to extend their initial implementation reason. What i am very pleased by, is that there's whole communities out there today that focuses solely on adapting .Net to their base systems - be it MONO or other similar platforms. This tells me that .Net is definitely here to stay. _______ Aaron Erickson James, please forgive me, but is not Java now an Oracle product? Oracle has an absolutley horrible reputation in the area of developer support. If anything, Oracle tends to destroy programming platforms, not help them. As for various versions of .NET, it simply is not true that each version is substantially different. 2.0 added generics to the core framework, 3.0 added WCF, WPF, WF, and a few other APIs, 3.5 added LINQ, 4.0 added dynamic. The ecosystem around .NET is amazingly large, yet, the core bits (IL) you run an app with have not changed all that dramatically since .NET 1.0. To say they are different is to really misrepresent what has happened. MS has a core product, it's called .NET, and it is on it's 4th major release. As for the language debate, I addressed that earlier. C# and Java will co-evolve. Even Java people will say that C# is ahead right now, but Java will probably catch up at some point. Obj-C will recede, and a mobile framework that enables you to program the iPhone/Droid/etc. with a common language (again, probably both C# and Java) will emerge. Simply too much economic incentive to take mainstream development languages and techniques to the mobile form factor. Monotouch has already proven technical viability. Java moving there too is only a matter of time. ____________ Vadim Katsman Looking comments of this discussion, it actually reminded me the grand phylosophical discussion - Java vs. Microsoft - I really refer to 2 main threads of development architectures, design patterns, tool families, run-time frameworks, deployment strategies, toolsets, languages, libraries etc. - what really constitutes one platform vs. another. Since .Net Framework is a most modern (for the tme being) platform on Microsoft line, the question is asked about lifespan Java vs. .Net but it is really a question about Java path vs. path following Microsoft development vision, ideology and platform, and one of potential values of this discussion is to review and validate development trends - for newbies to select the path (which is really career determining decision), for others to adjust long-term commitments.(either to switch either way or to stay if both paths are viable). While .Net Framework is the best development platform to date offered by Microsoft (and I stayed in Micrsoft camp for at least 15 years), it will be replaced with something else in future (it is not matter of "if" but "when"), but this is rather to advantage of the overall platform, which is not .Net but tuned to current delivery targets DNIA architecture - distributed network internet architecture - a platform to develop and maintain enterprise solutions, which happen to require today to become RIA, but tomorrow it will be something else (such as pointed out in other comments mobile applications). I have on my machine all Visual Studios since 1998 and evolving together with Microsoft vision was a relatively smooth process - what we do today has very direct, natural and consistent roots from earlier technologies - COM/DCOM/COM+/WSDL, DAO/RDO/ADO/ADO.Net etc. - and because of it is maintained by one company all of these are supported to date. Just few weeks ago I was assisting the client with migration from NT40 to W2K3 and exposing legacy COM+ application as web services - the best testament of long life time of the development thread today called .Net but in reality part of long rooted, historically stable and would be supported in future vision to build modern solutions at all levels. __________ Brian Bass While I am an avid C# programmer I have also been consulting for over 10 years and have found the reverse to be true. Because Java was the hot language in the early 90s there is a big glut of Java developers already out in the marketplace. Also, those old developers are now managers and directors of IT. Recently I found out an old employers director of IT was once a Java developer and has now mandated that all new programming is to be developed in Java. I worked at Nokia a couple of years ago and was on one of the only .Net teams there. The rest were Java. It is almost as if it is a religious war when you talk about Java vs .Net. I recently defended .Net to people and the fact is always that .Net kills Java in speed tests, lines of code and time to market all the way around. If the business world was only forward thinking all projects would be developed in C#. But in the balance sheet world Java requires no money for licensing, has more open source add ins and there are more Java developers so you don't have to pay them as much as a .Net developer. The business director has to ask - will this software do the same thing as the other language and the answer is usually yes. Then the director has to ask some questions - What have we been using in the past? Is it worth it to change? Would hardware be a limitation - Wintel or Sun? and many other business specific questions. Java seems to be winning out in that arena because it is hard to put a dollar value on performance and productivity. I also recently worked at a non-profit and they used projects from colleges to enhance their websites. The colleges would turn out AJAX with Java Beans and Hibernate web apps. I converted them to ASP.Net AJAX and found that the college kids of today are being taught by their professors that Java is the top language. These professors are ones who got their degrees at the height of Java. But, if the college kids were smart they would learn .Net instead and be able to command a higher salary in the marketplace. So I don't think Java is going to be killed any time soon. I think the old systems will always be put on an upgrade path to the next version of the language they were originally developed in. It is the new development where .Net should win, but that is all based on whether the client is from a Java world or Microsoft world. The fact is there are more people that come from a Java world than .Net. There are more shops that utilize Java. I just look at all of the open source projects and Google APIs and can see that Google is a little anti-Microsoft in their tools. It is frustrating because .Net is soo much better than Java and Google is ignoring a growing segment of developers. I think the turning point will be Windows 7 penetration. Since the OS is popular and shops are actually willing to migrate old NT servers to Windows 7 the .Net Framework is ready, willing and able to be utilized. Over the years the Java operating systems will lug behind even more and will eventually fade away. Maybe in 20 years there will be new languages, but I am willing to bet the .Net framework is here to stay and will eventually dominate the software and web industries. __________ Jeff Potts "Does anyone agree or disagree? ==> Larry Ellison et. al. are going to train customers and favor Oracle (aka proprietary) over Java for BI, BPM, etc. That is not good news for Java." --------------------------------------------------------------------- It may or may not affect JAVA. Then again, Oracle's proprietary development system is not a broad-based development language. It has a specific focus, and it has been around for long enough that if elimination was the motive, JAVA would be past history. And, as for Bill Gates being the son of the Devil, some anti-establishment types consider Oracle to be the Seventh Level of Hell. I've been developing Microsoft apps since Windows was version 2.0. In that time I've seen all the trends that have popped up between then and now. There is a big enough "maverick" contingent out there that will absolutely refuse to follow any path forged by a big, evil corporation bent on profit (perish the thought) no matter how much easier it makes their lives. One only need to look at the fact that Borland and Delphi are still around (and still have a sizable application/developer base) to see the absolute worst that could happen to JAVA. JAVA isn't going anywhere far. So don't fret. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AopdHkqSqKL-dHlQVTMxU1VBdU1BSWJxdy1f... ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general -- Kenn Lisudza Systems Developer Cellulant Kenya LTD. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AopdHkqSqKL-dHlQVTMxU1VBdU1BSWJxdy1f... ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 6:38 PM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ahhh the grand old debate.
The only problem with it this time is that it is set within narrow parameters of whether the first will kill the second while future holds many more possibilities. For example, what if new .Net never gains Open Source market confidence? ("New" since only OSS'd just two months ago this http://tinyurl.com/y9hhga8) Suppose also Java, MySQL, etc.. are all deliberately "silently killed" by new owners to promote their other? Missing on above both are considerations of trust. Yes, companies can change their approaches genuinely or otherwise, purchase other hitherto trusted firms but "trust" is never transferable therefore customers' confidence in new owners never guaranteed. Who knows? A new firm could just spring up from literally "nowhere" and become the new killer of both .Net and Java. Going by past predictions, surprises await http://preview.tinyurl.com/ybnqmvs respectfully, Alex
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>wrote:
...
Going by past predictions, surprises await http://preview.tinyurl.com/ybnqmvs
...
Much as it's almost impossible to predict the future, especially the long-term future, these guys seem to miss it by so far, coz of their interests, which limit their objectivity. Cool stuff! Joseph.
Actually JAVA will take .NET where it belongs "extinction". No offence taken.. On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Joseph Wayodi <jwayodi@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>wrote:
...
Going by past predictions, surprises await http://preview.tinyurl.com/ybnqmvs
...
Much as it's almost impossible to predict the future, especially the long-term future, these guys seem to miss it by so far, coz of their interests, which limit their objectivity.
Cool stuff!
Joseph.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet
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-- Solomon Kariri, Software Developer, Cell: +254736 729 450 Skype: solomonkariri
LOL! On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:43 AM, solomon kariri <solomonkariri@gmail.com>wrote:
Actually JAVA will take .NET where it belongs "extinction". No offence taken..
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Joseph Wayodi <jwayodi@gmail.com>wrote:
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Gakuru Alex < alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
...
Going by past predictions, surprises await http://preview.tinyurl.com/ybnqmvs
...
Much as it's almost impossible to predict the future, especially the long-term future, these guys seem to miss it by so far, coz of their interests, which limit their objectivity.
Cool stuff!
Joseph.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet
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-- Solomon Kariri,
Software Developer, Cell: +254736 729 450 Skype: solomonkariri
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Insightful, cutting edge analysis indeed! On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:43 AM, solomon kariri <solomonkariri@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually JAVA will take .NET where it belongs "extinction". No offence taken..
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Joseph Wayodi <jwayodi@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
...
Going by past predictions, surprises await http://preview.tinyurl.com/ybnqmvs
...
Much as it's almost impossible to predict the future, especially the long-term future, these guys seem to miss it by so far, coz of their interests, which limit their objectivity.
Cool stuff!
Joseph.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet
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-- Solomon Kariri,
Software Developer, Cell: +254736 729 450 Skype: solomonkariri
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Insightful, cutting edge analysis indeed!
But of course! Unhelpful questions ("will .NET kill Java") call for equally unhelpful responses. Yin begets Yang, and the universe maintains its balance. Saidi On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:51 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Insightful, cutting edge analysis indeed!
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:43 AM, solomon kariri <solomonkariri@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually JAVA will take .NET where it belongs "extinction". No offence taken..
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Joseph Wayodi <jwayodi@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Gakuru Alex <
alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>
wrote:
...
Going by past predictions, surprises await http://preview.tinyurl.com/ybnqmvs
...
Much as it's almost impossible to predict the future, especially the long-term future, these guys seem to miss it by so far, coz of their interests, which limit their objectivity.
Cool stuff!
Joseph.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet
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-- Solomon Kariri,
Software Developer, Cell: +254736 729 450 Skype: solomonkariri
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On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Murigi Muraya <mmskunkworks@gmail.com> wrote:
There has been some debate about whether .Net will kill Java some day @ http://www.linkedin.com/groupAnswers?viewQuestionAndAnswers=&gid=43315&discu...
My position is that .Net will not and does not need to kill Java. So no flames .....
.NET is cute but not really viable for most open source deployments and also for linux / unix deployments ... and that is a critical factor for many. You've got a look at not just java ... but other programming stacks built on top of it ... e.g. Groovy/Grails ... JRuby ... Jython etc..
I disagree with such sweeping generalizations. It's not about 'cuteness'. It's about the ability to develop usable, real world software. There is plenty of software in the *nix ecosystem running on .NET (using the Mono runtime) - MonoTouch - Banshee - Unity3D - Beagle - F-Spot - Tomboy There's an entire list here http://www.mono-project.com/Software On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:17 AM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Murigi Muraya <mmskunkworks@gmail.com> wrote:
There has been some debate about whether .Net will kill Java some day @
http://www.linkedin.com/groupAnswers?viewQuestionAndAnswers=&gid=43315&discu...
My position is that .Net will not and does not need to kill Java. So no
flames .....
.NET is cute but not really viable for most open source deployments and also for linux / unix deployments ... and that is a critical factor for many. You've got a look at not just java ... but other programming stacks built on top of it ... e.g. Groovy/Grails ... JRuby ... Jython etc.. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet
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On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:48 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I disagree with such sweeping generalizations. It's not about 'cuteness'. It's about the ability to develop usable, real world software. There is plenty of software in the *nix ecosystem running on .NET (using the Mono runtime)
MonoTouch Banshee Unity3D Beagle F-Spot Tomboy
There's an entire list here http://www.mono-project.com/Software
I didnt mean to generalize ... but that list is a good example in terms of large scale adoption . there are mostly desktop tools ... some of which are not bad (e.g. F-Spot ... a picasa clone for linux) ... some are quite awful (e.g Beagle ...). It does not really indicate anything beyond feasibility (certainly not large scale adoption). There are almost no web-frameworks or public deployments using mono to run web-apps. The problem with feasibility is there are many other mature environments on linux -- that dont come with the microsoft millstone around their necks (which is why the list of projects for mono is quite thin). When i used it last it did seem like a nice platform for building for cross-platform desktop apps (which is why is said "cute") ...though getting it running properly on linux was quite a problem.
participants (9)
-
ashok+skunkworks＠parliaments.info -
Gakuru Alex -
Joseph Wayodi -
Kenn Lisudza -
Murigi Muraya -
Rad! -
saidimu apale -
solomon kariri -
wesley kirinya