Re: [Skunkworks] The best testing platforms which give the worst results
@Phares I am afraid I have to come to the defense of @Solomon and start by saying Internet Explorer sucks. It doesn't matter if IE has 65% of the market or not it sill sucks. to get FF or Chrome or safari onto your windows pc you must intentionally go in and download it but IE i found on your PC by default so that would be the 1st reason why its still the most popular. now if you have been following browser usage for years you will notice IE is loosing ground. Now the reason anyone on this list may not know that IE sucks is coz they don't bother to write code from scratch using CSS. When a developer pulls Joomla/Drupal etc off the web and installs it what they don't know is that the developers have gone through the headache just to make it work correctly in IE. So even though you use it you have no idea they have had to come up with work-arounds to handle IE Bugs. right now i am working on an online game canvass (from scratch) and the same code works on all browsers except IE. so when I am done i will have to do make a ie specific CSS version to take care of the bugs found in IE so I can cater for the 65% of internet users... it makes me sooo mad. Rule of the thumb when developing web applications. If you want to hack it for real, rule says develop on Firefox (which will work in chrome and others) then write another version of the CSS to handle IE bugs and wrap it like so... <!--[if IE]> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="ie-only.css" /> <![endif]--> for IE 5 specific <!--[if IE 5]> <link href="IE-5-SPECIFIC.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"> <![endif]--> for IE 6 specific <!--[if IE 6]> <link href="IE-6-SPECIFIC.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"> <![endif]--> for IE 7 specific <!--[if IE 7]> <link href="IE-7-SPECIFIC.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"> <![endif]--> IE 8 added this meta tag to make things easier for us. As you well know a site may look okay in ie7 and breaks in ie8 so to solve that you need to add this to your meta tags <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=EmulateIE7" /> This makes ie 8 behave like ie 7 All in all, If you wanna know why developers are so frustrated with IE? Its not coz its a microsoft product its because of bugs like this: http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html SKYPE: sobbayi US: +1 202 297 6831 +1 202 470 0525 KE: +254 722 627 691 http://blog.sobbayi.com http://sobbayi.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phares Kariuki" <pkariuki@gmail.com> To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:32:14 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] The best testing platforms which give the worst results Well my point was and still remains, Internet Explorer sucks Unfortunately, you have not provided any concrete data to back up your argument. Currently IE has around 65% of the market share, so as a web developer, it would be terribly imprudent to disregard it. Secondly, IE has several benefits (one of them being seamless integration with Windows, Sharepoint is not as fluid on Firefox). I'm preaching for IE, however there is a concrete reason why they currently have lead market share. -- With Regards, Phares Kariuki | T: +254 734 810 802 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares |
From the years, I have come to totally agree IE really really sucks.
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
@Phares I am afraid I have to come to the defense of @Solomon and start by saying Internet Explorer sucks. It doesn't matter if IE has 65% of the market or not it sill sucks. to get FF or Chrome or safari onto your windows pc you must intentionally go in and download it but IE i found on your PC by default so that would be the 1st reason why its still the most popular. now if you have been following browser usage for years you will notice IE is loosing ground.
Now the reason anyone on this list may not know that IE sucks is coz they don't bother to write code from scratch using CSS. When a developer pulls Joomla/Drupal etc off the web and installs it what they don't know is that the developers have gone through the headache just to make it work correctly in IE. So even though you use it you have no idea they have had to come up with work-arounds to handle IE Bugs.
right now i am working on an online game canvass (from scratch) and the same code works on all browsers except IE. so when I am done i will have to do make a ie specific CSS version to take care of the bugs found in IE so I can cater for the 65% of internet users... it makes me sooo mad.
Rule of the thumb when developing web applications. If you want to hack it for real, rule says develop on Firefox (which will work in chrome and others) then write another version of the CSS to handle IE bugs and wrap it like so...
<!--[if IE]> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="ie-only.css" /> <![endif]-->
for IE 5 specific <!--[if IE 5]> <link href="IE-5-SPECIFIC.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"> <![endif]-->
for IE 6 specific <!--[if IE 6]> <link href="IE-6-SPECIFIC.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"> <![endif]-->
for IE 7 specific <!--[if IE 7]> <link href="IE-7-SPECIFIC.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"> <![endif]-->
IE 8 added this meta tag to make things easier for us. As you well know a site may look okay in ie7 and breaks in ie8 so to solve that you need to add this to your meta tags
<meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=EmulateIE7" />
This makes ie 8 behave like ie 7
All in all, If you wanna know why developers are so frustrated with IE? Its not coz its a microsoft product its because of bugs like this:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html
SKYPE: sobbayi US: +1 202 297 6831 +1 202 470 0525 KE: +254 722 627 691
http://blog.sobbayi.com http://sobbayi.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Phares Kariuki" <pkariuki@gmail.com> To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:32:14 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] The best testing platforms which give the worst results
Well my point was and still remains, Internet Explorer sucks
Unfortunately, you have not provided any concrete data to back up your argument. Currently IE has around 65% of the market share, so as a web developer, it would be terribly imprudent to disregard it. Secondly, IE has several benefits (one of them being seamless integration with Windows, Sharepoint is not as fluid on Firefox). I'm preaching for IE, however there is a concrete reason why they currently have lead market share. -- With Regards,
Phares Kariuki
| T: +254 734 810 802 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares |
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
Couldn't have put it better Steve,I remember back in the days designing what I thought was a beautiful website only for it to fall apart when testing in IE especially IE6 because of its bugs and very poor compliance to web standards.I learnt the hard way to put hacks in the CSS code because no web designer or developer can ignore the dominance of IE, however buggy it is.
I recently came across this script <http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/>, I haven't used it yet but i guess it solves some of the IE headaches On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Edwin Wambua <eddwak@gmail.com> wrote:
Couldn't have put it better Steve,I remember back in the days designing what I thought was a beautiful website only for it to fall apart when testing in IE especially IE6 because of its bugs and very poor compliance to web standards.I learnt the hard way to put hacks in the CSS code because no web designer or developer can ignore the dominance of IE, however buggy it is. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- Best Regards, Paul Njoroge. Skype: njorogepaul
Programming against specific browsers is like washing your eyes with chilli sauce. Nothing but grief can come of it. And contary to what someone has alleged above, WebKit and Gecko are not 100% compatible either. I would encourage guys to program against JavaScript frameworks like JQuery or Ext JS where someone else has done the heavy lifting to make code and stylesheets work well across browsers including those you will invariably forget to test on like Opera On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Paul Njoroge <njorogekamau@gmail.com>wrote:
I recently came across this script <http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/>, I haven't used it yet but i guess it solves some of the IE headaches
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Edwin Wambua <eddwak@gmail.com> wrote:
Couldn't have put it better Steve,I remember back in the days designing what I thought was a beautiful website only for it to fall apart when testing in IE especially IE6 because of its bugs and very poor compliance to web standards.I learnt the hard way to put hacks in the CSS code because no web designer or developer can ignore the dominance of IE, however buggy it is. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- Best Regards, Paul Njoroge.
Skype: njorogepaul
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Programming against specific browsers is like washing your eyes with chilli sauce. Nothing but grief can come of it. And contary to what someone has alleged above, WebKit and Gecko are not 100% compatible either.
WebKit does score 100/100 on the Acid3 Browser Test (http://webkit.org/blog/173/webkit-achieves-acid3-100100-in-public-build/). ~gms
By 100% compatible I meant that if you program against Gecko it is not guaranteed that it will look and work exactly the same on a WebKit browser On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Glenn Sequeira <gsequeira@gmail.com>wrote:
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Programming against specific browsers is like washing your eyes with chilli sauce. Nothing but grief can come of it. And contary to what someone has alleged above, WebKit and Gecko are not 100% compatible either.
WebKit does score 100/100 on the Acid3 Browser Test (http://webkit.org/blog/173/webkit-achieves-acid3-100100-in-public-build/ ).
~gms _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
@Rad, Ithink guys are talking CSS, not javascript. CSS does not have kits to standardize it. A helpful way I found to code CSS for IE6 was * html <your-id/class>{ <Your -css-code> } That targets IE only. Haven't done this for IE7 or IE8 though. But tis the truth, IE is crap. On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
By 100% compatible I meant that if you program against Gecko it is not guaranteed that it will look and work exactly the same on a WebKit browser
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Glenn Sequeira <gsequeira@gmail.com>wrote:
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Programming against specific browsers is like washing your eyes with chilli sauce. Nothing but grief can come of it. And contary to what someone has alleged above, WebKit and Gecko are not 100% compatible either.
WebKit does score 100/100 on the Acid3 Browser Test (http://webkit.org/blog/173/webkit-achieves-acid3-100100-in-public-build/ ).
~gms _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- www.dealcent.com - Your electronics shop www.golavish.com - The travel and leisure www.raccuddasys.com - code Development issues
@Frankline - dig a bit deeper into the JQuery docs -- there's a lot you can do to manipulate CSS On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Frankline Chitwa <frank.chitwa@gmail.com>wrote:
@Rad, Ithink guys are talking CSS, not javascript. CSS does not have kits to standardize it. A helpful way I found to code CSS for IE6 was * html <your-id/class>{ <Your -css-code> }
And to make matters even worse they don't make the inconsistencies consistent, they vary with different versions of ie. I think some guy keeps trying out new things with IE and sends it out to see how the feedback will be, no concern what they loose. Inconsistent inconsistencies is there a single word for this, I don't think there is coz its the last thing one would expect anyone serious and devoted to do. On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
@Frankline - dig a bit deeper into the JQuery docs -- there's a lot you can do to manipulate CSS
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Frankline Chitwa <frank.chitwa@gmail.com
wrote:
@Rad, Ithink guys are talking CSS, not javascript. CSS does not have kits to standardize it. A helpful way I found to code CSS for IE6 was * html <your-id/class>{ <Your -css-code> }
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- Solomon Kariri, Software Developer, Cell: +254736 729 450 Skype: solomonkariri
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Programming against specific browsers is like washing your eyes with chilli sauce. Nothing but grief can come of it. And contary to what someone has alleged above, WebKit and Gecko are not 100% compatible either.
I would encourage guys to program against JavaScript frameworks like JQuery or Ext JS where someone else has done the heavy lifting to make code and stylesheets work well across browsers including those you will invariably forget to test on like Opera
And what if I wanted to write my own JavaScript or CSS "framework"? You don't always need to use a framework. It all depends on what you're trying to do. Frameworks are simply libraries of stuff that you want to reuse in future. And solving the problems of browsers' non-compliance to standards aren't their only "use". The browser developers should just improve their compliance to standards (as many of them are doing), and not leave that job to others. Joseph.
participants (9)
-
Edwin Wambua -
Frankline Chitwa -
Glenn Sequeira -
Joseph Wayodi -
Moses -
Paul Njoroge -
Rad! -
solomon kariri -
Steve Obbayi