How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ?
With so much that the Open Source world has given out for free to the rest of the world, may be it is time we looked at the National GDP value. If I remember the figures, the reason for KE as a dev enviroment was the Ksh500m that was earned as an export figure. And how many jobs have such created ? PS: Free Web Servers and Databases do not count, unless they have a significant impact on the type and industry. Me thots. :-)
Here is another angle, me thots and corrections welcome. I'd be willing to bet with anyone that 100% of the said export software was based on proprietory code and zero from the open source community who are so dependent on free software. Infact, the Open Source Community may be the 100% importers of code and a major detrimental factor to the growth of the KE software industry. I've highlighted some points from the article, dated 5th Jan 2010. Thanks to Kui Kinyanjui for the article. http://allafrica.com/stories/201001051052.html Kenya's rising profile as a software developing nation is set to place the commodity on the country's list of exports this year as companies and governments continue the search for effective cost-cutting tools. Figures from the Ministry of Information reveal the sector raked in over Sh500 million in revenues last year, and that figure is projected to double as the country's profile rises around the world. Currently, Kenya biggest exports are tangible goods such as horticultural exports, tea and soda ash. A shift to virtual software exports would position the country to compete in the same class as India, which makes upwards of Sh4 billion per annum in software exports. Local software manufacturers say they are experiencing an upswing in interest from foreign companies, who are drawn to Kenyan developers due to their ability to churn out cheap but innovative solutions. "Software will also play a major role in helping both the public and private sectors adapt to economic changes quickly and cheaply. The software industry provides a cost effective way of implementing competing requirements such as increasing efficiency, initiating cost reductions and ensuring new regulatory compliance," said Dean Mericka, President of US Operations for Software AG Rgds.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 9:25 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is another angle, me thots and corrections welcome. I'd be willing to bet with anyone that 100% of the said export software was based on proprietory code and zero from the open source community who are so dependent on free software. Infact, the Open Source Community may be the 100% importers of code and a major detrimental factor to the growth of the KE software industry.
Ill give you a classical example here. Fedora and RHEL. Fedora is like the test lab for RHEL, so they just sit pretty, watch new developments and package in RHEL with one or two mods. Opensource grows, their business thrives...
I've highlighted some points from the article, dated 5th Jan 2010. Thanks to Kui Kinyanjui for the article.
http://allafrica.com/stories/201001051052.html
Kenya's rising profile as a software developing nation is set to place the commodity on the country's list of exports this year as companies and governments continue the search for effective cost-cutting tools. Figures from the Ministry of Information reveal the sector raked in over Sh500 million in revenues last year, and that figure is projected to double as the country's profile rises around the world. Currently, Kenya biggest exports are tangible goods such as horticultural exports, tea and soda ash.
A shift to virtual software exports would position the country to compete in the same class as India, which makes upwards of Sh4 billion per annum in software exports. Local software manufacturers say they are experiencing an upswing in interest from foreign companies, who are drawn to Kenyan developers due to their ability to churn out cheap but innovative solutions.
"Software will also play a major role in helping both the public and private sectors adapt to economic changes quickly and cheaply. The software industry provides a cost effective way of implementing competing requirements such as increasing efficiency, initiating cost reductions and ensuring new regulatory compliance," said Dean Mericka, President of US Operations for Software AG
Rgds.
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On 08/11/2010, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is another angle, me thots and corrections welcome. I'd be willing to bet with anyone that 100% of the said export software was based on proprietory code and zero from the open source community who are so dependent on free software. Infact, the Open Source Community may be the 100% importers of code and a major detrimental factor to the growth of the KE software industry.
Aki, The article by Kui Kinyanjui doesnt appear to corroborate your view. Or something in-between the lines passed me by ? That is a highly flammable proposition for you to make even before the real facts have started streaming in. And why do you want to exclude database and web servers from this mix ? Anyway, to each his own. Perhaps, you should look at open source software's contribution to the economy not as direct sales of software packages, but by the expenses foregone in using, say, MySQL instead of M$-SQL, Apache instead of IIS, OpenERP instead of Oracle et cetera The list is almost endless. Your ISP most probably runs a Linux/Solaris/BSD somewhere (everywhere actually), your telephone provider still running yet more instances of these *nix'es and an array of open sorce software; your bank, your cybercafe etc All this open source software helps to bring down the cost of running businesses. So that the BPO, the tea exporter, and even the hotel operator can make more profit by incurring less operating expenses. And thats money in the bank. -- Ndungi Kyalo
Well said my friend @Kyalo. :-) Just a view. All those that you have mentioned as ISPs, Telcos etc using open source to their benefit is excellent and also that they are 100% importers of code. Systems in Kenyan cannot grow unless the first world developes it for us. The Kenyan software development industry, which is an entity on its own, has also generated export value for kenya. How much of the exports is Open Source which was re-defined modified etc to fit specific needs of other countries? I'm struggling to find any data. Rgds. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/11/2010, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is another angle, me thots and corrections welcome. I'd be willing to bet with anyone that 100% of the said export software was based on proprietory code and zero from the open source community who are so dependent on free software. Infact, the Open Source Community may be the 100% importers of code and a major detrimental factor to the growth of the KE software industry.
Aki,
The article by Kui Kinyanjui doesnt appear to corroborate your view. Or something in-between the lines passed me by ? That is a highly flammable proposition for you to make even before the real facts have started streaming in. And why do you want to exclude database and web servers from this mix ? Anyway, to each his own.
Perhaps, you should look at open source software's contribution to the economy not as direct sales of software packages, but by the expenses foregone in using, say, MySQL instead of M$-SQL, Apache instead of IIS, OpenERP instead of Oracle et cetera The list is almost endless.
Your ISP most probably runs a Linux/Solaris/BSD somewhere (everywhere actually), your telephone provider still running yet more instances of these *nix'es and an array of open sorce software; your bank, your cybercafe etc All this open source software helps to bring down the cost of running businesses. So that the BPO, the tea exporter, and even the hotel operator can make more profit by incurring less operating expenses. And thats money in the bank.
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 9:25 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
I've highlighted some points from the article, dated 5th Jan 2010. Thanks to Kui Kinyanjui for the article.
http://allafrica.com/stories/201001051052.html
A shift to virtual software exports would position the country to compete in the same class as India, which makes upwards of Sh4 billion per annum in software exports. Local software manufacturers say they are experiencing an upswing in interest from foreign companies, who are drawn to Kenyan developers due to their ability to churn out cheap but innovative solutions.
The writer of the article unfortunately got their mathematics wrong -- indian software exports are US$40 Billion -- not Sh4 Billion.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:34 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
PS: Free Web Servers and Databases do not count, unless they have a significant impact on the type and industry.
Maybe collecting taxes on microsoft licenses might contribute to gdp ? : <http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2010/10/31/stories/2010103151760100.htm>
I think the govt already collects taxes on imported software. Good idea, I think the govt should also tax open source being used for commercial gains as web servers, databases and software as a solution. Not only is Open Source free, its truely really free of any taxes too at the moment, wow. Never thought of that, from an economic view. Nice one @Ashok. :-) On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:20 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:34 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
PS: Free Web Servers and Databases do not count, unless they have a significant impact on the type and industry.
Maybe collecting taxes on microsoft licenses might contribute to gdp ? :
< http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2010/10/31/stories/2010103151760100.htm
_______________________________________________
On 8 November 2010 04:30, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the govt already collects taxes on imported software. Good idea, I think the govt should also tax open source being used for commercial gains as web servers, databases and software as a solution.
You would make a bad, baad president :-)
lol! :-)))) I don't want to be a president or anything. Before our listers think that I hate Open source, I don't so no one on this list should shy away from asking the listers on free software or any open source questions etc. I'm just another opinion. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8 November 2010 04:30, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the govt already collects taxes on imported software. Good idea, I think the govt should also tax open source being used for commercial gains as web servers, databases and software as a solution.
You would make a bad, baad president :-)
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:30 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the govt already collects taxes on imported software.
Are you really sure ? do you think the government is collecting taxes on for e.g. windows installations packaged with desktops ? last time i checked it wasnt the case. this is a source taxation issue that companies like microsoft have been using to evade taxes for a long time -- think of it -- you buy a box of imported tissues, you pay taxes for it locally -- not in the country where it was made. -- you buy a license for microsoft windows with your desktop -- and the taxes for that go ...where .... ? no one knows right now the money is pocketed by microsoft ... they run their 'windows licensing' operations from tax havens like ireland while actually pretending to be an american company to make use of double taxation treaties to not pay taxes at source
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:30 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the govt already collects taxes on imported software. Good idea, I think the govt should also tax open source being used for commercial gains as web servers, databases and software as a solution. Not only is Open Source free, its truely really free of any taxes too at the moment, wow.
how about taxing oxygen ... since its free, everyones breathing it and converting it into energy ;-)
@Ashok, I hear oxygen too is charged for when breathing difficulties occur. But we are disgressing from the thread which was about the National GDP value of Open Source. At the moment I can summarise as follows : 1) 100% free software under the open source world is imported. 0% has any GDP value. 2) 100% of proprietory software developed in kenyan is exported and earned Kenya at least Ksh 500m in 2009. There is a big imbalance. Rgds. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:45 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:30 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the govt already collects taxes on imported software. Good idea, I think the govt should also tax open source being used for commercial gains as web servers, databases and software as a solution. Not only is Open Source free, its truely really free of any taxes too at the moment, wow.
how about taxing oxygen ... since its free, everyones breathing it and converting it into energy ;-)
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:53 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
But we are disgressing from the thread which was about the National GDP value of Open Source. At the moment I can summarise as follows : 1) 100% free software under the open source world is imported. 0% has any GDP value. 2) 100% of proprietory software developed in kenyan is exported and earned Kenya at least Ksh 500m in 2009.
You are basing statements on possibly inaccurate information, and fundamentally wrong assumptions on how gdp is calculated. for e.g. -- there are people developing custom software (using propreitary and open source tools ) for domestic consumption-- how can you not count that as part of a gdp valuation ? -- there is no evidence to suggest that 100% of proprietary software is exported. it would mean 100% of software is worthy of export or even domestic use -- does that statement make any sense at all -- given the amount of crap software out there ... -- you can build proprietary software with oss components .... do you have the inside knowledge of every software exported in 2009 -- that it did not use any open source tools or items ? Finally "imports" should really be considered as a cost if you are actually paying for it --- in the case of 'open source' you are doing a technology transfer free of charge. if you fail to understand and make use of existing knowledge -- you have lost the opportunity cost no fixed assets or revenue.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Ashok Hariharan <ashok@parliaments.info>wrote:
-- there are people developing custom software (using propreitary and open source tools ) for domestic consumption-- how can you not count that as part of a gdp valuation ?
I think the country does not earn any revenue from imported free software. Kenya may be loosing out on billions of shillings in uncollected taxes from free software that is being used in commercial enviroments. I think now that we are loosing out more than we are gaining. Not sure on this though.
-- there is no evidence to suggest that 100% of proprietary software is exported. it would mean 100% of software is worthy of export or even domestic use -- does that statement make any sense at all -- given the amount of crap software out there ...
There is also no evidence to support that any free imported software actually made it as a export. I think a really dumb nation out there would want to buy something they too can easily download and customize.
-- you can build proprietary software with oss components .... do you have the inside knowledge of every software exported in 2009 -- that it did not use any open source tools or items ?
I dont have any insider knowlegde.
Finally "imports" should really be considered as a cost if you are actually paying for it --- in the case of 'open source' you are doing a technology transfer free of charge. if you fail to understand and make use of existing knowledge -- you have lost the opportunity cost no fixed assets or revenue.
In other words, you become an end user of the free software in the name of technology transfer. We are back to square one.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 1:36 PM, aki wrote:
I think the country does not earn any revenue from imported free software. Kenya may be loosing out on billions of shillings in uncollected taxes from free software that is being used in commercial enviroments. I think now that we are loosing out more than we are gaining. Not sure on this though.
yes, i agree -- you should tax open source software! Surely KRA is well equipped to decide who to tax in the absence of a seller, buyer, and evidence of a financial purchase. Of course they will need to start by taxing the known offenders/ parties who are bundling and selling licenses locally (e.g. microsoft).
Finally "imports" should really be considered as a cost if you are actually paying for it --- in the case of 'open source' you are doing a technology transfer free of charge. if you fail to understand and make use of existing knowledge -- you have lost the opportunity cost no fixed assets or revenue. In other words, you become an end user of the free software in the name of technology transfer. We are back to square one.
Yes, if you want to become an end-user/consumer you will become one -- its got nothing to do with open source or proprietary software or about software at all.
@Ashok, I really like your kra comment. Open source is a ghost when it comes to taxes. lol! :-))) On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 2:26 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 1:36 PM, aki wrote:
I think the country does not earn any revenue from imported free software. Kenya may be loosing out on billions of shillings in uncollected taxes from free software that is being used in commercial enviroments. I think now that we are loosing out more than we are gaining. Not sure on this though.
yes, i agree -- you should tax open source software! Surely KRA is well equipped to decide who to tax in the absence of a seller, buyer, and evidence of a financial purchase.
Hello Aki, Ashok, KRA already taxes Open Source through the consumption tax VAT. Any company that is tax compliant will issue a tax invoice for services rendered (whether related to Open Source or Proprietary software). So services rendered to companies using Open Source are taxed at 6%. Services include software development, installation, customisation, consulting etc. Please note that duty on Any media containing computer software is exempt. (Inserted by Legal Notice No. 2 of 15th September 2005 ) http://www.revenue.go.ke/customs/pdf/Fifth_Schedule_Exemptions.pdf Thus an Ubuntu CD imported into the country should not pay any duty. -----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Reply-to: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 14:49:26 +0300 @Ashok, I really like your kra comment. Open source is a ghost when it comes to taxes. lol! :-))) On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 2:26 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info> wrote: On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 1:36 PM, aki wrote: > I think the country does not earn any revenue from imported free software. > Kenya may be loosing out on billions of shillings in uncollected taxes from > free software that is being used in commercial enviroments. I think now that > we are loosing out more than we are gaining. Not sure on this though. > yes, i agree -- you should tax open source software! Surely KRA is well equipped to decide who to tax in the absence of a seller, buyer, and evidence of a financial purchase. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke -- Regards, Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
To agree with Joe, a few weeks ago I got charged 5% withholding tax for doing a simple PHP/MySQL website running on Apache on a Linux server hosted by Access Kenya. This was under the label "Professional Services". On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com>wrote:
Hello Aki, Ashok,
KRA already taxes Open Source through the consumption tax VAT. Any company that is tax compliant will issue a tax invoice for services rendered (whether related to Open Source or Proprietary software). So services rendered to companies using Open Source are taxed at 6%.
Services include software development, installation, customisation, consulting etc.
Please note that duty on Any media containing computer software is exempt. (Inserted by Legal Notice No. 2 of 15th September 2005 ) http://www.revenue.go.ke/customs/pdf/Fifth_Schedule_Exemptions.pdf
Thus an Ubuntu CD imported into the country should not pay any duty.
-----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Reply-to: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 14:49:26 +0300
@Ashok, I really like your kra comment. Open source is a ghost when it comes to taxes. lol! :-)))
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 2:26 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote: On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 1:36 PM, aki wrote: > I think the country does not earn any revenue from imported free software. > Kenya may be loosing out on billions of shillings in uncollected taxes from > free software that is being used in commercial enviroments. I think now that > we are loosing out more than we are gaining. Not sure on this though. >
yes, i agree -- you should tax open source software! Surely KRA is well equipped to decide who to tax in the absence of a seller, buyer, and evidence of a financial purchase.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards,
Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Hello All, I meant to say 16% VAT not 6%. My apologies.. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> To: joe.njeru@gmail.com, Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 15:24:25 +0300 To agree with Joe, a few weeks ago I got charged 5% withholding tax for doing a simple PHP/MySQL website running on Apache on a Linux server hosted by Access Kenya. This was under the label "Professional Services". On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com> wrote: Hello Aki, Ashok, KRA already taxes Open Source through the consumption tax VAT. Any company that is tax compliant will issue a tax invoice for services rendered (whether related to Open Source or Proprietary software). So services rendered to companies using Open Source are taxed at 6%. Services include software development, installation, customisation, consulting etc. Please note that duty on Any media containing computer software is exempt. (Inserted by Legal Notice No. 2 of 15th September 2005 ) http://www.revenue.go.ke/customs/pdf/Fifth_Schedule_Exemptions.pdf Thus an Ubuntu CD imported into the country should not pay any duty. -----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Reply-to: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 14:49:26 +0300 @Ashok, I really like your kra comment. Open source is a ghost when it comes to taxes. lol! :-))) On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 2:26 PM, <ashok +skunkworks@parliaments.info> wrote: On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 1:36 PM, aki wrote: > I think the country does not earn any revenue from imported free software. > Kenya may be loosing out on billions of shillings in uncollected taxes from > free software that is being used in commercial enviroments. I think now that > we are loosing out more than we are gaining. Not sure on this though. > yes, i agree -- you should tax open source software! Surely KRA is well equipped to decide who to tax in the absence of a seller, buyer, and evidence of a financial purchase. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke -- Regards, Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke -- Regards, Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com> wrote:
KRA already taxes Open Source through the consumption tax VAT. Any company that is tax compliant will issue a tax invoice for services rendered (whether related to Open Source or Proprietary software). So services rendered to companies using Open Source are taxed at 6%. Services include software development, installation, customisation, consulting etc.
Isnt this also called 'withholding tax' ? this is a service tax which you will be charged whether you are implementing open source or propreitary software -- its got no co-relation to the end user license.
Hello Ashok, Here the law is grey. Withholding tax should be charged for consulting work at 5%. However, the VAT Act also includes Software Development as a service. So, were you to provide consultancy i.e Development of an Open Source Migration Plan the client will retain 5% for onward transfer to KRA and issue you with a Withholding Tax certificate. If you were to undertake 'Develop an Open Office plugin for importing XYZ data' you should charge 16% VAT for that. My point is that Open Source pays taxes just like Proprietary Software. -----Original Message----- From: ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info To: joe.njeru@gmail.com, Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 15:29:18 +0300 On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com> wrote:
KRA already taxes Open Source through the consumption tax VAT. Any company that is tax compliant will issue a tax invoice for services rendered (whether related to Open Source or Proprietary software). So services rendered to companies using Open Source are taxed at 6%. Services include software development, installation, customisation, consulting etc.
Isnt this also called 'withholding tax' ? this is a service tax which you will be charged whether you are implementing open source or propreitary software -- its got no co-relation to the end user license. -- Regards, Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
I'm just adding my final thots to this thread. @Skunks mailing list can take up the whole day.... :-) 1) Despite paying VAT on Open Source as a service, I believe that kenya is still losing out in one way other another on free software. Considering that the business tax on software transactions. Eg a database software cost 5000USD, sold at 5500USD. That 500USD is subject to profit taxes while free software is a big loss for the country, when used in commercial enviroments. 2) It seems there are very few people who really take Open Source and do something with it. It is also time that the Open Source community gave back to the same benefit that it got as "grants". 3) With many free chances given to such developers, we should be now budding with real and unique applications. Open Source has given most of the complete platforms possibly that 90% of the work has already been done. That 10% needs to be generated and at a fast pace. 4) The need to move away from creating eg Social websites ( that look good in conferences but have no real financial value ) and move towards say eg the business sector in the form of Web Applications. Dependency on free software is more harmful to us than we may be willing to accept. Rgds.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:34 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
1) Despite paying VAT on Open Source as a service, I believe that kenya is still losing out in one way other another on free software. Considering that the business tax on software transactions. Eg a database software cost 5000USD, sold at 5500USD. That 500USD is subject to profit taxes while free software is a big loss for the country, when used in commercial enviroments.
And where do you think that 5000 USD is coming from ... ? perhaps there is a magic tree in Kenya sprouting dollar bills with mr.benjamin franklin on it ... and what about profit taxes for the 5000 USD ? you are paying 5000 usd for a commercial license for which there are no profit taxes paid locally by the seller. If you replace "open source" with "licensed software" in all your below statements -- you might reach the same conclusion. perhaps the problem isnt anything to do with the software being free / bought or pirated, but how you have used it and how you've been taught to use it and other factors like incentives / regulatory environment etc.
2) It seems there are very few people who really take Open Source and do something with it. It is also time that the Open Source community gave back to the same benefit that it got as "grants".
3) With many free chances given to such developers, we should be now budding with real and unique applications. Open Source has given most of the complete platforms possibly that 90% of the work has already been done. That 10% needs to be generated and at a fast pace.
> 4) The need to move away from creating eg Social websites ( that look good
in conferences but have no real financial value ) and move towards say eg the business sector in the form of Web Applications.
Dependency on free software is more harmful to us than we may be willing to accept.
Hello Aki, My final submission on this discussion. On point 1: VAT on software is 16% of the value of the software. If the developer of the database software is Kenyan then 100% stays in Kenya (Developer 84% + Treasury 16%). [ Good ] If the developer is Microsoft, Oracle etc then the distributor will keep about 20% and the rest is sent to Redmond or Redwood Shores. 64% of the value of all foreign sourced proprietary software leaves the country. [Not So Good - foreign exchange? Balance of Payments? ] Open Source. 0% leaves the country. 16% of services rendered goes to Treasury. 84% goes to Open Source service providers. [ Best ] Enough said. -----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Reply-to: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:34:24 +0300 I'm just adding my final thots to this thread. @Skunks mailing list can take up the whole day.... :-) 1) Despite paying VAT on Open Source as a service, I believe that kenya is still losing out in one way other another on free software. Considering that the business tax on software transactions. Eg a database software cost 5000USD, sold at 5500USD. That 500USD is subject to profit taxes while free software is a big loss for the country, when used in commercial enviroments. 2) It seems there are very few people who really take Open Source and do something with it. It is also time that the Open Source community gave back to the same benefit that it got as "grants". 3) With many free chances given to such developers, we should be now budding with real and unique applications. Open Source has given most of the complete platforms possibly that 90% of the work has already been done. That 10% needs to be generated and at a fast pace. 4) The need to move away from creating eg Social websites ( that look good in conferences but have no real financial value ) and move towards say eg the business sector in the form of Web Applications. Dependency on free software is more harmful to us than we may be willing to accept. Rgds. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke -- Regards, Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
So Aki would you rather pay $5500 for software and jenga uchumi yetu than get a free one that does exactly the same thing? Software prices are overrated bwana, the issue here is pay for a service e.g if you have a business,make profits using open source and pay your taxes, rather than not being able to do your business because you cant afford the softwar. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com>wrote:
Hello Aki,
My final submission on this discussion.
On point 1:
VAT on software is 16% of the value of the software.
If the developer of the database software is Kenyan then 100% stays in Kenya (Developer 84% + Treasury 16%). [ Good ]
If the developer is Microsoft, Oracle etc then the distributor will keep about 20% and the rest is sent to Redmond or Redwood Shores. 64% of the value of all foreign sourced proprietary software leaves the country. [Not So Good - foreign exchange? Balance of Payments? ]
Open Source. 0% leaves the country. 16% of services rendered goes to Treasury. 84% goes to Open Source service providers. [ Best ]
Enough said. -----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Reply-to: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:34:24 +0300
I'm just adding my final thots to this thread. @Skunks mailing list can take up the whole day.... :-)
1) Despite paying VAT on Open Source as a service, I believe that kenya is still losing out in one way other another on free software. Considering that the business tax on software transactions. Eg a database software cost 5000USD, sold at 5500USD. That 500USD is subject to profit taxes while free software is a big loss for the country, when used in commercial enviroments.
2) It seems there are very few people who really take Open Source and do something with it. It is also time that the Open Source community gave back to the same benefit that it got as "grants".
3) With many free chances given to such developers, we should be now budding with real and unique applications. Open Source has given most of the complete platforms possibly that 90% of the work has already been done. That 10% needs to be generated and at a fast pace.
4) The need to move away from creating eg Social websites ( that look good in conferences but have no real financial value ) and move towards say eg the business sector in the form of Web Applications.
Dependency on free software is more harmful to us than we may be willing to accept.
Rgds. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards,
Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- www.golavish.com - The travel and leisure www.raccuddasys.com - code Development issues
Back to the initial statement by Aki: I would be interested to know what research has been done to show what kind of software has been made in Kenya and exported outside, and earned us how much Dollars. I think that is the crux of your argument. So please advise me, what research and by whom? Can you please provide the figures? Did I miss something here? In the mean time, we have ready information to show you that the local open source community has provided quite a bit of code to the global open source community, right here at skunkworks. Just that this may not be considered as an export, but a major contribution all the same. Need examples? Evans On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com>wrote:
Hello Aki,
My final submission on this discussion.
On point 1:
VAT on software is 16% of the value of the software.
If the developer of the database software is Kenyan then 100% stays in Kenya (Developer 84% + Treasury 16%). [ Good ]
If the developer is Microsoft, Oracle etc then the distributor will keep about 20% and the rest is sent to Redmond or Redwood Shores. 64% of the value of all foreign sourced proprietary software leaves the country. [Not So Good - foreign exchange? Balance of Payments? ]
Open Source. 0% leaves the country. 16% of services rendered goes to Treasury. 84% goes to Open Source service providers. [ Best ]
Enough said. -----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Reply-to: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:34:24 +0300
I'm just adding my final thots to this thread. @Skunks mailing list can take up the whole day.... :-)
1) Despite paying VAT on Open Source as a service, I believe that kenya is still losing out in one way other another on free software. Considering that the business tax on software transactions. Eg a database software cost 5000USD, sold at 5500USD. That 500USD is subject to profit taxes while free software is a big loss for the country, when used in commercial enviroments.
2) It seems there are very few people who really take Open Source and do something with it. It is also time that the Open Source community gave back to the same benefit that it got as "grants".
3) With many free chances given to such developers, we should be now budding with real and unique applications. Open Source has given most of the complete platforms possibly that 90% of the work has already been done. That 10% needs to be generated and at a fast pace.
4) The need to move away from creating eg Social websites ( that look good in conferences but have no real financial value ) and move towards say eg the business sector in the form of Web Applications.
Dependency on free software is more harmful to us than we may be willing to accept.
Rgds. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards,
Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Hello @Evans. some thots inline. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Back to the initial statement by Aki: I would be interested to know what research has been done to show what kind of software has been made in Kenya and exported outside, and earned us how much Dollars. I think that is the crux of your argument. So please advise me, what research and by whom? Can you please provide the figures? Did I miss something here?
I based my comments on the article by BD and I do not have the breakdown of the exported software and the platforms. I came up empty of any other articles that could have the information.
In the mean time, we have ready information to show you that the local open source community has provided quite a bit of code to the global open source community, right here at skunkworks. Just that this may not be considered as an export, but a major contribution all the same. Need examples? Evans
Please go ahead and share the inspirations that Open Source in KE is not limited to end usage. Rgds.
Indeed. Please provide us with examples. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Back to the initial statement by Aki: I would be interested to know what research has been done to show what kind of software has been made in Kenya and exported outside, and earned us how much Dollars. I think that is the crux of your argument. So please advise me, what research and by whom? Can you please provide the figures? Did I miss something here? In the mean time, we have ready information to show you that the local open source community has provided quite a bit of code to the global open source community, right here at skunkworks. Just that this may not be considered as an export, but a major contribution all the same. Need examples? Evans
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com>wrote:
Hello Aki,
My final submission on this discussion.
On point 1:
VAT on software is 16% of the value of the software.
If the developer of the database software is Kenyan then 100% stays in Kenya (Developer 84% + Treasury 16%). [ Good ]
If the developer is Microsoft, Oracle etc then the distributor will keep about 20% and the rest is sent to Redmond or Redwood Shores. 64% of the value of all foreign sourced proprietary software leaves the country. [Not So Good - foreign exchange? Balance of Payments? ]
Open Source. 0% leaves the country. 16% of services rendered goes to Treasury. 84% goes to Open Source service providers. [ Best ]
Enough said. -----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Reply-to: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:34:24 +0300
I'm just adding my final thots to this thread. @Skunks mailing list can take up the whole day.... :-)
1) Despite paying VAT on Open Source as a service, I believe that kenya is still losing out in one way other another on free software. Considering that the business tax on software transactions. Eg a database software cost 5000USD, sold at 5500USD. That 500USD is subject to profit taxes while free software is a big loss for the country, when used in commercial enviroments.
2) It seems there are very few people who really take Open Source and do something with it. It is also time that the Open Source community gave back to the same benefit that it got as "grants".
3) With many free chances given to such developers, we should be now budding with real and unique applications. Open Source has given most of the complete platforms possibly that 90% of the work has already been done. That 10% needs to be generated and at a fast pace.
4) The need to move away from creating eg Social websites ( that look good in conferences but have no real financial value ) and move towards say eg the business sector in the form of Web Applications.
Dependency on free software is more harmful to us than we may be willing to accept.
Rgds. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards,
Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Rad and Aki, can you first provide us with the figures of how much (in shillings or otherwise) of proprietary software was exported from Kenya? Don't try to change the subject here. You have even talked about percentages, where did they come from? Evans On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Indeed.
Please provide us with examples.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Back to the initial statement by Aki: I would be interested to know what research has been done to show what kind of software has been made in Kenya and exported outside, and earned us how much Dollars. I think that is the crux of your argument. So please advise me, what research and by whom? Can you please provide the figures? Did I miss something here? In the mean time, we have ready information to show you that the local open source community has provided quite a bit of code to the global open source community, right here at skunkworks. Just that this may not be considered as an export, but a major contribution all the same. Need examples? Evans
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com>wrote:
Hello Aki,
My final submission on this discussion.
On point 1:
VAT on software is 16% of the value of the software.
If the developer of the database software is Kenyan then 100% stays in Kenya (Developer 84% + Treasury 16%). [ Good ]
If the developer is Microsoft, Oracle etc then the distributor will keep about 20% and the rest is sent to Redmond or Redwood Shores. 64% of the value of all foreign sourced proprietary software leaves the country. [Not So Good - foreign exchange? Balance of Payments? ]
Open Source. 0% leaves the country. 16% of services rendered goes to Treasury. 84% goes to Open Source service providers. [ Best ]
Enough said. -----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Reply-to: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:34:24 +0300
I'm just adding my final thots to this thread. @Skunks mailing list can take up the whole day.... :-)
1) Despite paying VAT on Open Source as a service, I believe that kenya is still losing out in one way other another on free software. Considering that the business tax on software transactions. Eg a database software cost 5000USD, sold at 5500USD. That 500USD is subject to profit taxes while free software is a big loss for the country, when used in commercial enviroments.
2) It seems there are very few people who really take Open Source and do something with it. It is also time that the Open Source community gave back to the same benefit that it got as "grants".
3) With many free chances given to such developers, we should be now budding with real and unique applications. Open Source has given most of the complete platforms possibly that 90% of the work has already been done. That 10% needs to be generated and at a fast pace.
4) The need to move away from creating eg Social websites ( that look good in conferences but have no real financial value ) and move towards say eg the business sector in the form of Web Applications.
Dependency on free software is more harmful to us than we may be willing to accept.
Rgds. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards,
Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
@Evans, et.al. I don't think the nature of this thread was to incite misunderstandings or any misleading threading. Look at what both Aki and Rad are trying to say. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Rad and Aki, can you first provide us with the figures of how much (in shillings or otherwise) of proprietary software was exported from Kenya? Don't try to change the subject here. You have even talked about percentages, where did they come from? Evans
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Indeed.
Please provide us with examples.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Back to the initial statement by Aki: I would be interested to know what research has been done to show what kind of software has been made in Kenya and exported outside, and earned us how much Dollars. I think that is the crux of your argument. So please advise me, what research and by whom? Can you please provide the figures? Did I miss something here? In the mean time, we have ready information to show you that the local open source community has provided quite a bit of code to the global open source community, right here at skunkworks. Just that this may not be considered as an export, but a major contribution all the same. Need examples? Evans
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com>wrote:
Hello Aki,
My final submission on this discussion.
On point 1:
VAT on software is 16% of the value of the software.
If the developer of the database software is Kenyan then 100% stays in Kenya (Developer 84% + Treasury 16%). [ Good ]
If the developer is Microsoft, Oracle etc then the distributor will keep about 20% and the rest is sent to Redmond or Redwood Shores. 64% of the value of all foreign sourced proprietary software leaves the country. [Not So Good - foreign exchange? Balance of Payments? ]
Open Source. 0% leaves the country. 16% of services rendered goes to Treasury. 84% goes to Open Source service providers. [ Best ]
Enough said. -----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Reply-to: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:34:24 +0300
I'm just adding my final thots to this thread. @Skunks mailing list can take up the whole day.... :-)
1) Despite paying VAT on Open Source as a service, I believe that kenya is still losing out in one way other another on free software. Considering that the business tax on software transactions. Eg a database software cost 5000USD, sold at 5500USD. That 500USD is subject to profit taxes while free software is a big loss for the country, when used in commercial enviroments.
2) It seems there are very few people who really take Open Source and do something with it. It is also time that the Open Source community gave back to the same benefit that it got as "grants".
3) With many free chances given to such developers, we should be now budding with real and unique applications. Open Source has given most of the complete platforms possibly that 90% of the work has already been done. That 10% needs to be generated and at a fast pace.
4) The need to move away from creating eg Social websites ( that look good in conferences but have no real financial value ) and move towards say eg the business sector in the form of Web Applications.
Dependency on free software is more harmful to us than we may be willing to accept.
Rgds. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards,
Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- ...and I shall shed my light over dark evil. For the dark things cannot stand the light.
Eh! Chief, Uko na shida gani na mini? If you scroll up you will find I've not said anything about proprietary vs open source software. I'm just asking about these examples you are saying that you have. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Rad and Aki, can you first provide us with the figures of how much (in shillings or otherwise) of proprietary software was exported from Kenya? Don't try to change the subject here. You have even talked about percentages, where did they come from? Evans
@Evans. The figures that I put were based on the article that in 2009 KE earned revenue of Ksh 500m on export of software. The percentages were my assumptions that most likely the export was proprietory code. This thread is more of a developer point of view than actual business figures where we are trying to come up with an understanding that we needed to do more. The only reason that Open Source comes up is because OS is not unique to KE so any developer in the world can download and work. Somehow the thread moved away from the dev perspective and onto other things. But given that OS has already provided many platforms that one can develop on, should we be doing more and or the limitation of the free software a negative impact to the dev enviroment because its free? Rgds. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Rad and Aki, can you first provide us with the figures of how much (in shillings or otherwise) of proprietary software was exported from Kenya? Don't try to change the subject here. You have even talked about percentages, where did they come from? Evans
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:57 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
more and or the limitation of the free software a negative impact to the dev enviroment because its free?
You keep saying using open source software for development has a negative impact on the developer... you seem to be hypothesizing that it has a negative impact on his/her skills ? why ? you have gone over into conjectural paths on gdp and taxation ... but its not clear to me how exactly it has a negative impact ? are you suggesting if i dont use open source software i might actually become more creative ? how so ?
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:14 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 5:57 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
more and or the limitation of the free software a negative impact to the dev enviroment because its free?
You keep saying using open source software for development has a negative impact on the developer... you seem to be hypothesizing that it has a negative impact on his/her skills ? why ? you have gone over into conjectural paths on gdp and taxation ... but its not clear to me how exactly it has a negative impact ?
@Ashok, if you are not a developer, I'd not expect you to understand my logic on this. Whatever the case, we should give this thread a rest, has taken up too much time.
are you suggesting if i dont use open source software i might actually become more creative ? how so ?
On the contrary, Im saying that you should be doing more on Open Source. Rgds.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:25 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
You keep saying using open source software for development has a negative impact on the developer... you seem to be hypothesizing that it has a negative impact on his/her skills ? why ? you have gone over into conjectural paths on gdp and taxation ... but its not clear to me how exactly it has a negative impact ? @Ashok, if you are not a developer, I'd not expect you to understand my logic on this. Whatever the case, we should give this thread a rest, has taken up too much time.
I dont understand the logic, care to explain without conjecture / analogy ?
@Ashok. The principle is simple. He even said it in the previous thread about NASA. Do more! talk less, contribute more! On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:32 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:25 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
You keep saying using open source software for development has a negative impact on the developer... you seem to be hypothesizing that it has a negative impact on his/her skills ? why ? you have gone over into conjectural paths on gdp and taxation ... but its not clear to me how exactly it has a negative impact ? @Ashok, if you are not a developer, I'd not expect you to understand my logic on this. Whatever the case, we should give this thread a rest, has taken up too much time.
I dont understand the logic, care to explain without conjecture / analogy ? _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- ...and I shall shed my light over dark evil. For the dark things cannot stand the light.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok.
The principle is simple. He even said it in the previous thread about NASA. Do more! talk less, contribute more!
i didnt read the previous thread since it was about NASA.
All cool brother. Just be easy. How's things with you? Watch ( this space ) man! On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:44 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok.
The principle is simple. He even said it in the previous thread about NASA. Do more! talk less, contribute more!
i didnt read the previous thread since it was about NASA. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- ...and I shall shed my light over dark evil. For the dark things cannot stand the light.
Rad, I have absolutely no shida with you brother. But when Aki says the following: *"Here is another angle, me thots and corrections welcome. I'd be willing to bet with anyone that 100% of the said export software was based on proprietory code and zero from the open source community who are so dependent on free software. Infact, the Open Source Community may be the 100% importers of code and a major detrimental factor to the growth of the KE software industry*." I have a right to correct wrong information. He is misinforming the general public and his assumptions are not based on fact. Those facts are the ones that I want him to quote. Dont go quoting a story from a newspaper. That is not necessarily fact. You are a scientist and you should know better. Either give us the facts or take your words back. Evans On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote:
All cool brother.
Just be easy.
How's things with you?
Watch ( this space ) man!
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:44 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok.
The principle is simple. He even said it in the previous thread about NASA. Do more! talk less, contribute more!
i didnt read the previous thread since it was about NASA. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- ...and I shall shed my light over dark evil. For the dark things cannot stand the light.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Yes, but you said "Rad and Aki" which is what i took exception to. You offered to give some examples of community contributions to OSS. I only know of Ushahidi, FrontlineSMS and FreeBSD. What other examples can you give of contributions? On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Rad, I have absolutely no shida with you brother. But when Aki says the following:
*"Here is another angle, me thots and corrections welcome. I'd be willing to bet with anyone that 100% of the said export software was based on proprietory code and zero from the open source community who are so dependent on free software. Infact, the Open Source Community may be the 100% importers of code and a major detrimental factor to the growth of the KE software industry*."
I have a right to correct wrong information. He is misinforming the general public and his assumptions are not based on fact. Those facts are the ones that I want him to quote. Dont go quoting a story from a newspaper. That is not necessarily fact. You are a scientist and you should know better. Either give us the facts or take your words back.
Evans
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote:
All cool brother.
Just be easy.
How's things with you?
Watch ( this space ) man!
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:44 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok.
The principle is simple. He even said it in the previous thread about NASA. Do more! talk less, contribute more!
i didnt read the previous thread since it was about NASA. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- ...and I shall shed my light over dark evil. For the dark things cannot stand the light.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
But Rad, I cant help but see how fast you are to support Aki on this whole thing, knowing which side of the divide you are on. Now that you do know about Ushahidi and the global impact that it has made, can you tell us of a proprietary example that has a similar or bigger global impact, by Kenyan Developers? We are just sharing information here and educating each other. It would be good to know. As Ashok said, Aki must base his hypothesis on some level of fact. He cant just give a blanket statement saying that OS is major detrimental factor to the growth of the local software industry and not support that with fact. To me that seems like trying to sneak in some trojan horse in the minds of listers that may not seem harmful but may put questions about certain issues. Evans I think you guys are trying to sneak in some On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, but you said "Rad and Aki" which is what i took exception to.
You offered to give some examples of community contributions to OSS. I only know of Ushahidi, FrontlineSMS and FreeBSD. What other examples can you give of contributions?
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Rad, I have absolutely no shida with you brother. But when Aki says the following:
*"Here is another angle, me thots and corrections welcome. I'd be willing to bet with anyone that 100% of the said export software was based on proprietory code and zero from the open source community who are so dependent on free software. Infact, the Open Source Community may be the 100% importers of code and a major detrimental factor to the growth of the KE software industry*."
I have a right to correct wrong information. He is misinforming the general public and his assumptions are not based on fact. Those facts are the ones that I want him to quote. Dont go quoting a story from a newspaper. That is not necessarily fact. You are a scientist and you should know better. Either give us the facts or take your words back.
Evans
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote:
All cool brother.
Just be easy.
How's things with you?
Watch ( this space ) man!
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:44 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok.
The principle is simple. He even said it in the previous thread about NASA. Do more! talk less, contribute more!
i didnt read the previous thread since it was about NASA. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- ...and I shall shed my light over dark evil. For the dark things cannot stand the light.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Evans, though I do not see the need to explain my opinion but will do it for the sake of the maintaining the repsect for all devs on the list, I try to maintain myself as an independent and always try to make my contributions on what my thots are. I think you should avoid reading too much into my contributions as mischief. As a potential dev, I also want to see Open Source devs move to newer levels because I believe we are not building enough or not doing enough. Whatever the wars between Open Source and Proprietory is not my business or affair as a dev. I'm quite happy developing on proprietory but I see that my collegues in the open source world have so much potential to do much much more because of their platforms. Collectively, they can do more for kenya than even what the original goals of the original free software were. I think the reason @Rad thought to support me is because of exposure and experience in the dev industry. Me thots. Asante. :-) On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
But Rad, I cant help but see how fast you are to support Aki on this whole thing, knowing which side of the divide you are on. Now that you do know about Ushahidi and the global impact that it has made, can you tell us of a proprietary example that has a similar or bigger global impact, by Kenyan Developers? We are just sharing information here and educating each other. It would be good to know.
As Ashok said, Aki must base his hypothesis on some level of fact. He cant just give a blanket statement saying that OS is major detrimental factor to the growth of the local software industry and not support that with fact.
To me that seems like trying to sneak in some trojan horse in the minds of listers that may not seem harmful but may put questions about certain issues.
Evans
I think you guys are trying to sneak in some
Alright Aki, have it your way. I have no problem with healthy argument. In the mean time am waiting for proprietary earth-shattering examples from Kenya. Peace. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:51 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
Evans, though I do not see the need to explain my opinion but will do it for the sake of the maintaining the repsect for all devs on the list, I try to maintain myself as an independent and always try to make my contributions on what my thots are. I think you should avoid reading too much into my contributions as mischief. As a potential dev, I also want to see Open Source devs move to newer levels because I believe we are not building enough or not doing enough. Whatever the wars between Open Source and Proprietory is not my business or affair as a dev. I'm quite happy developing on proprietory but I see that my collegues in the open source world have so much potential to do much much more because of their platforms. Collectively, they can do more for kenya than even what the original goals of the original free software were.
I think the reason @Rad thought to support me is because of exposure and experience in the dev industry.
Me thots.
Asante. :-)
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
But Rad, I cant help but see how fast you are to support Aki on this whole thing, knowing which side of the divide you are on. Now that you do know about Ushahidi and the global impact that it has made, can you tell us of a proprietary example that has a similar or bigger global impact, by Kenyan Developers? We are just sharing information here and educating each other. It would be good to know.
As Ashok said, Aki must base his hypothesis on some level of fact. He cant just give a blanket statement saying that OS is major detrimental factor to the growth of the local software industry and not support that with fact.
To me that seems like trying to sneak in some trojan horse in the minds of listers that may not seem harmful but may put questions about certain issues.
Evans
I think you guys are trying to sneak in some
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
@Evans, Asante. From me, my target is to try to the best of my knowlegde and experience on many tech platforms to come up with things that make more localised sense on the network layer. Maybe they will work or not the market will decide, no one is paying my bills or time to develop any of the projects so there are many late night hours going into this. But there is a drive to make it work locally. That is an imperative to me. :-) On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Alright Aki, have it your way. I have no problem with healthy argument. In the mean time am waiting for proprietary earth-shattering examples from Kenya. Peace.
Chief, I've not stated my position and i find your insistence that i am supporting Aki puzzling. How? There is no mischief in my inquiring for additional examples over and above the ones I know. You my friend are chasing ghosts that are simply not there. Or is it that I am not allowed to ask? For the record I believe both Open Source and proprietary software has its place and there is plenty of room for both. and I don't recall any law stating that i must exclusively support one camp or the other. I am a happy and unapologetic consumer of OSS and proprietary software.
From past experience this issue attracts practitioners completely paralyzed and unwilling to give the opposing camp a fair listen. This thread just proves it. Which is why i no longer participate in these open source vs proprietary debates. Minds are already made up. Its like a Christian arguing with a Muslim about religion. Minds are already made up.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
But Rad, I cant help but see how fast you are to support Aki on this whole thing, knowing which side of the divide you are on. Now that you do know about Ushahidi and the global impact that it has made, can you tell us of a proprietary example that has a similar or bigger global impact, by Kenyan Developers? We are just sharing information here and educating each other. It would be good to know.
As Ashok said, Aki must base his hypothesis on some level of fact. He cant just give a blanket statement saying that OS is major detrimental factor to the growth of the local software industry and not support that with fact.
To me that seems like trying to sneak in some trojan horse in the minds of listers that may not seem harmful but may put questions about certain issues.
Evans
I think you guys are trying to sneak in some
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, but you said "Rad and Aki" which is what i took exception to.
You offered to give some examples of community contributions to OSS. I only know of Ushahidi, FrontlineSMS and FreeBSD. What other examples can you give of contributions?
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Rad, I have absolutely no shida with you brother. But when Aki says the following:
*"Here is another angle, me thots and corrections welcome. I'd be willing to bet with anyone that 100% of the said export software was based on proprietory code and zero from the open source community who are so dependent on free software. Infact, the Open Source Community may be the 100% importers of code and a major detrimental factor to the growth of the KE software industry*."
I have a right to correct wrong information. He is misinforming the general public and his assumptions are not based on fact. Those facts are the ones that I want him to quote. Dont go quoting a story from a newspaper. That is not necessarily fact. You are a scientist and you should know better. Either give us the facts or take your words back.
Evans
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com>wrote:
All cool brother.
Just be easy.
How's things with you?
Watch ( this space ) man!
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:44 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok.
The principle is simple. He even said it in the previous thread about NASA. Do more! talk less, contribute more!
i didnt read the previous thread since it was about NASA. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- ...and I shall shed my light over dark evil. For the dark things cannot stand the light.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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Correction -- sue attracts practitioners completely completely *POLARIZED,* not paralyzed On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Chief,
I've not stated my position and i find your insistence that i am supporting Aki puzzling. How? There is no mischief in my inquiring for additional examples over and above the ones I know. You my friend are chasing ghosts that are simply not there. Or is it that I am not allowed to ask?
For the record I believe both Open Source and proprietary software has its place and there is plenty of room for both. and I don't recall any law stating that i must exclusively support one camp or the other. I am a happy and unapologetic consumer of OSS and proprietary software.
From past experience this issue attracts practitioners completely paralyzed and unwilling to give the opposing camp a fair listen. This thread just proves it. Which is why i no longer participate in these open source vs proprietary debates. Minds are already made up. Its like a Christian arguing with a Muslim about religion. Minds are already made up.
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
But Rad, I cant help but see how fast you are to support Aki on this whole thing, knowing which side of the divide you are on. Now that you do know about Ushahidi and the global impact that it has made, can you tell us of a proprietary example that has a similar or bigger global impact, by Kenyan Developers? We are just sharing information here and educating each other. It would be good to know.
As Ashok said, Aki must base his hypothesis on some level of fact. He cant just give a blanket statement saying that OS is major detrimental factor to the growth of the local software industry and not support that with fact.
To me that seems like trying to sneak in some trojan horse in the minds of listers that may not seem harmful but may put questions about certain issues.
Evans
I think you guys are trying to sneak in some
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, but you said "Rad and Aki" which is what i took exception to.
You offered to give some examples of community contributions to OSS. I only know of Ushahidi, FrontlineSMS and FreeBSD. What other examples can you give of contributions?
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Rad, I have absolutely no shida with you brother. But when Aki says the following:
*"Here is another angle, me thots and corrections welcome. I'd be willing to bet with anyone that 100% of the said export software was based on proprietory code and zero from the open source community who are so dependent on free software. Infact, the Open Source Community may be the 100% importers of code and a major detrimental factor to the growth of the KE software industry*."
I have a right to correct wrong information. He is misinforming the general public and his assumptions are not based on fact. Those facts are the ones that I want him to quote. Dont go quoting a story from a newspaper. That is not necessarily fact. You are a scientist and you should know better. Either give us the facts or take your words back.
Evans
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com>wrote:
All cool brother.
Just be easy.
How's things with you?
Watch ( this space ) man!
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:44 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Watchman <skunkingrahim@gmail.com> wrote: > @Ashok. > > The principle is simple. He even said it in the previous thread about NASA. > Do more! talk less, contribute more! >
i didnt read the previous thread since it was about NASA. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- ...and I shall shed my light over dark evil. For the dark things cannot stand the light.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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@Evans, I started of my second sentence with " I'd be willing to bet with anyone.........". If I had hard facts, 'i'd definatley backup with those facts. Again, my argument was based on my view on a developer perspective and I think you maybe taking this out of context. You have also not highlighted my compliment comment to @Joe on his use of Open Source to create localised software of which I was completely impressed. Again, let me clarify that this thread is a developer perspective. My mistake is that I did not mark it as one, something that I've learnt and will be adding such to my future thread contributions. Would you still like me to re-tract my words? Rgds. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
Rad, I have absolutely no shida with you brother. But when Aki says the following:
*"Here is another angle, me thots and corrections welcome. I'd be willing to bet with anyone that 100% of the said export software was based on proprietory code and zero from the open source community who are so dependent on free software. Infact, the Open Source Community may be the 100% importers of code and a major detrimental factor to the growth of the KE software industry*."
I have a right to correct wrong information. He is misinforming the general public and his assumptions are not based on fact. Those facts are the ones that I want him to quote. Dont go quoting a story from a newspaper. That is not necessarily fact. You are a scientist and you should know better. Either give us the facts or take your words back.
Evans
Aki, You are misleading people on Open Source. 1.) - Govt spent atleast KES. 182,981,263 on proprietary licenses in 2006/2007 financial year. These results are to be found in the LPA (Linux Professional Association) study "Government of Kenya Software Procurement Research Report - 5 September, 2008" - by 2030 the cost of software would cost the government shillings 7.5 Billion - How much in terms of foreign exchange + license fees has this country saved by using Open Source tools? How much have you saved? - How many developers earn money from freelance work using Open Source tools in Kenya off freelancer.com, guru.com etc? 2.) - That statistic is fake. No 1 consumer of Kenyan proprietary software are Kenyan's themselves. 3.) Please read on the different Open Source licenses. Look at GPL and see what it entails. -----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> Reply-to: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:53:11 +0300 @Ashok, I hear oxygen too is charged for when breathing difficulties occur. But we are disgressing from the thread which was about the National GDP value of Open Source. At the moment I can summarise as follows : 1) 100% free software under the open source world is imported. 0% has any GDP value. 2) 100% of proprietory software developed in kenyan is exported and earned Kenya at least Ksh 500m in 2009. There is a big imbalance. Rgds. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:45 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info> wrote: On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:30 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: > I think the govt already collects taxes on imported software. Good idea, I > think the govt should also tax open source being used for commercial > gains as web servers, databases and software as a solution. Not only is Open > Source free, its truely really free of any taxes too at the moment, wow. how about taxing oxygen ... since its free, everyones breathing it and converting it into energy ;-) _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke -- Regards, Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
@Joe, thnks for the correction. some points inline. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com>wrote:
Aki,
You are misleading people on Open Source.
Trying my best not to be misleading.
1.) - Govt spent atleast KES. 182,981,263 on proprietary licenses in 2006/2007 financial year. These results are to be found in the LPA (Linux Professional Association) study "Government of Kenya Software Procurement Research Report - 5 September, 2008" - by 2030 the cost of software would cost the government shillings 7.5 Billion
I'd assume that LPA and the others are looking at the Govt sector for commercial business just like proprietory software. So the game is on competition because Open Source wants to provide free software backed by commercial aspects on service delivery. Knowing very little towards how the govt funds its procurements in this sector, would it be correct to say that the funding of such proprietory systems is part of the world bank donor system or does the govt pay outright for such. If the projects are donor funded, then there will be conditions to be met and software will be defined within those conditions. If this is the case, did Open Source fall short of not being able to provide tried and tested software systems, maybe saying funds us to develop and we will install/commision such projects? I cannot know these details, so a bit difficult to comment beyond such. So am just asking again. Which developer or company had come out with unique software, based on open source, to serve the local enviroment to match or exceed the proprietory competition? What are the prices of such software for the kenyan market?
Hello AKi, Let me respond inline in brown -----Original Message----- From: aki <aki275@gmail.com> To: joe.njeru@gmail.com, Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] How much of Open Source Free Software contributes towards Kenya's National GDP ? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 14:24:51 +0300 @Joe, thnks for the correction. some points inline. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com> wrote: Aki, You are misleading people on Open Source. Trying my best not to be misleading. 1.) - Govt spent atleast KES. 182,981,263 on proprietary licenses in 2006/2007 financial year. These results are to be found in the LPA (Linux Professional Association) study "Government of Kenya Software Procurement Research Report - 5 September, 2008" - by 2030 the cost of software would cost the government shillings 7.5 Billion I'd assume that LPA and the others are looking at the Govt sector for commercial business just like proprietory software. So the game is on competition because Open Source wants to provide free software backed by commercial aspects on service delivery. This is very correct. One of LPA's core mandate is to advocate for its members, by leveling the playing field in regards to FOSS software in Government procurement. We have been engaging with the PPOA - Public Procurement Oversight Authority to sensitize them on the options available for Govt software procurement. Knowing very little towards how the govt funds its procurements in this sector, would it be correct to say that the funding of such proprietory systems is part of the world bank donor system or does the govt pay outright for such. If the projects are donor funded, then there will be conditions to be met and software will be defined within those conditions. If this is the case, did Open Source fall short of not being able to provide tried and tested software systems, maybe saying funds us to develop and we will install/commision such projects? I cannot know these details, so a bit difficult to comment beyond such. This is a question that I cannot answer as I am not privy to the bilateral assistance documents. However, please note that only about 3% of Kenya Govt Budget comes for 'donors' so lets be realistic on its impact. So am just asking again. Which developer or company had come out with unique software, based on open source, to serve the local enviroment to match or exceed the proprietory competition? What are the prices of such software for the kenyan market? This is difficult information to come by due to Kenyan's habits of hiding everything financial. I will volunteer one product that one of the companies i'm involved in. It has developed over the last 7 years using Open Source tools - its an Insurance ERP software running in Kenya and Zambia. For further information please contact me directly. And yes, we have paid MySQL licenses so that we can bundle it together. -- Regards, Joe Murithi Njeru Linux User: #361092 SIP: joe.njeru@ekiga.net Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com
@Joe, I must congratulate you on developing open source into a localized versions which am sure made them quite affordable to your clients. 7 years is a long time, so I'm sure that the final product bears very little resemblence to anything out there on open source. Asante and great stuff. :-) On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Joe Murithi Njeru <joe.njeru@gmail.com>wrote:
Hello AKi,
Let me respond inline in brown
This is a question that I cannot answer as I am not privy to the bilateral assistance documents. However, please note that only about 3% of Kenya Govt Budget comes for 'donors' so lets be realistic on its impact. So am just asking again. Which developer or company had come out with unique software, based on open source, to serve the local enviroment to match or exceed the proprietory competition? What are the prices of such software for the kenyan market? This is difficult information to come by due to Kenyan's habits of hiding everything financial. I will volunteer one product that one of the companies i'm involved in. It has developed over the last 7 years using Open Source tools - its an Insurance ERP software running in Kenya and Zambia. For further information please contact me directly. And yes, we have paid MySQL licenses so that we can bundle it together.
-- Regards,
Joe Murithi Njeru
participants (11)
-
[ Brainiac ] -
aki -
Ashok Hariharan -
ashok+skunkworks＠parliaments.info -
Evans Ikua -
Frankline Chitwa -
Joe Murithi Njeru -
Ndungi Kyalo -
Peter Karunyu -
Rad! -
Watchman