Re: [Skunkworks] Kebs targets makers of software with quality rules
To all those who are against reinventing the wheel, i will give you a simple illustration: Take these two apps: for those who have been around since the early days of mysql, remember "mysql front". this App was the main interface to the mysql database but thank God for Indians. they went ahead and developed "mysqlyog". years later mysql front couldn't compete simply coz these indian fellows reinvented the wheel and gave us mysqlyog. These two applications did exactly the same thing but mysqlyog capitalized on mysql fronts weaknesses. They turn to development on win32 api an produced a lighter and faster front end to mysql. eventually almost everyone stopped using mysql front and turned to mysqlyog. i dont thinks its in production any more @Peter I am afraid I still have to agree with Aki on this one... 1. you say Kenya produces software for intl market? eg isys and verviant. don't these guys have offices in Denmark/USA or rather they seem to be like local partners for these foreign companies? That to me isn't local software. 2. Even though code reuse is inevitable eg like in c++ I would use the STL which comes as part of the core language is one argument to that. I write an algorithm that does task X then when I need task X i would get that algorithm and use it. Is a better form of code reuse Code reuse however doesn't mean downloading an entire app and choosing your favorite theme and pluggins and using them. That is simply using software, period!!! don't need to be a genius to do that. code reuse simply means bundling code into classes or reusable objects and not entire applications. 3. One thing you should note is that the international software market isn't hard to penetrate coz what the international software market want to see is demo software or sample code. But the thing is Kenyan Software developers don't have original apps to even use as demos and that why Kenyan developers are having problems. You cant use a borrowed App as a demo. Then I have had the privilege of spending a lot of my time jumping between USA and today and with time you tend to notice differences. I noticed in USA (not just IT industry but all) the people want the government to stay out of the way. while in Kenya we want the government to do things for us. 4. How does one have the nerve to call themselves a software developer and yet they cannot develop anything from scratch? How can you be a developer when you cant even optimize your own code. When google adopted the code for mysql they modified it, fixed bugs, patched up the code and contributed part of it back to main code base. How many developers here fr example those that use Joomla or drupal a lot. how many of these have rooted out bugs or improved the code and sent the modifications back to the source. If any developer who uses those apps does that let us know. I will start with myself. many years ago I used to use phpcollab and found very many bugs. I went in fixed them and sent the changes back to the developers. Kenyan developers need to step up the plate to earn the 100% Kenyan made mark. SKYPE: sobbayi US: +1 202 297 6831 +1 202 470 0525 KE: +254 722 627 691 http://blog.sobbayi.com http://sobbayi.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Karunyu" <pkarunyu@gmail.com> To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 3:33:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Kebs targets makers of software with quality rules My point: concluding that Kenya does not produce software for the local or international market simply because of the prevalent use of FREEWARE, is, for lack of a more polite word, a fallacy. Aki, you are making one large assumption: That the reason Kenya does not produce software for the local or international market is because of code reuse. Here are my thoughts; 1. Kenya does produce software for the local and international market, two outfits come to mind, iSys and Vervient 2. Code reuse is inevitable, unless you want to start by writing your own BIOS, device drivers, OS, compiler, web server etc. Assuming you drive a toyota camry, can not the same argument you are making be applied to it? (they tend to reuse the same powertrains) 3. Finally, the fact that Kenya does not produce software for the international market can be attributed to several variables, not just FREEWARE, for example: a. The local software market is still relatively 'virgin' such that the few companies that do produce software for it are satisfied b. The international software market is relatively hard to penetrate such that local companies find it easier to stick to the local c. Kenyans have peculiar coding habits d. "Tunaomba serikali itusaidie" e. FREEWARE f. etc _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
To all those who are against reinventing the wheel, i will give you a simple illustration:
Take these two apps: for those who have been around since the early days of mysql, remember "mysql front". this App was the main interface to the mysql database but thank God for Indians. they went ahead and developed "mysqlyog". years later mysql front couldn't compete simply coz these indian fellows reinvented the wheel and gave us mysqlyog. These two applications did exactly the same thing but mysqlyog capitalized on mysql fronts weaknesses. They turn to development on win32 api an produced a lighter and faster front end to mysql. eventually almost everyone stopped using mysql front and turned to mysqlyog. i dont thinks its in production any more
@Steve, I agree with you 100% that we at some stage need to take the code bull by the horns and re-write and contribute towards the larger code community. We all need to re-write apps from scratch to put our stamp on the map.
What I did realise from yesterday's contributions was that there was a serious incentive problem and mostly , if not all, coders are dependent on what clients want. Economics and lack of financial support/self financial support, marketing, availability, client pressure to be as free as possible cost wise, smaller modules approach is what is driving kenyan coders not to do more. I think Murigi brought out what may be the most important , i.e the lack of success of fully commercial apps is due to SOLO approaches. I can also fully relate to his approach and I think many others too. Though am still a learner , I can already see there are many obstacles ahead. For me as of now, the target is to develop a serious software/web development company within the next 2 years or start a training academy/school for budding programmers with involvement from other senior kenyan programmers/retired programmers. *I now see the solution as this :* - For the first 2 years, software developers/coders need to get together very frequently in mashups/commercial mashups. We need to start defining what the mashups are about. The main core are the 4 major programming languages so each mashup will be different. These mashups meets are not about competing but about coming together ( even via mail, messenger etc ) and adopting various strategies and ideas. These mashups can also be used as a web/software developer business meet, where clients can table projects while the mashups target to complete them commercially. - Software/web developers association within 2-4 years, runs parallel with mashups. Creation of this is critical, and code/business lessons learned from mashups will allow some financial contributions to go to the asociation to start of a developer community re-write code. This will allow upcoming coders to get involved in re-write projects while also put the association on the map and hopefully marketing itself to get funding towards its code re-write goals. Either way, we are all stagnant with SOLO approaches and I think there is no harm in first attempting the frequent mashups/commercial mashups. Can we make this happen? If we start today, a year from now we maybe looking back at a very successful startup and wondering why this was not done. Incase it fails, at least we shall have learnt why and try a better approach. Those with experience with mashups, kindly share your thoughts. Me thots. :-)
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 7:57 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
- Software/web developers association within 2-4 years, runs parallel with mashups. Creation of this is critical, and code/business lessons learned from mashups will allow some financial contributions to go to the asociation to start of a developer community re-write code. This will allow upcoming coders to get involved in re-write projects while also put the association on the map and hopefully marketing itself to get funding towards its code re-write goals.
Formal 'Associations' are too unproductive (=boring) for software engineers. Formal stuff works better for software entrepreneurs and firms / organizations. These are the kinds of settings that discuss standards. Steve has insights I concur with => You do not need or use a crowd to get a project going - just start with 2 or at most 3 focused developers. There is stuff he is working on with someone who is just as if not more competent than he is. Developer communities are the informal associations that work best to complement Projects that Pay developers to do what they love. Good example below: Please forward to .Net consultants looking to be more COOPERATIVE (= less Solo Moving) and to learn (c#asp.net) from others and to get or provide skills or support for their own or other projects. 1. Are you willing to sublet space in Westlands for your own (1 to 12 month) projects? If so, for how much? If not in Westlands, then where? 2. What kinds of standards and practices (e.g. certification, code reviews) will you provide to improve the quality of work to be forthcoming from our 'associations'? 3. What would you pay for the kind software or solutions you build or customize? 4. Do you have good experience with Microsoft SQL, SharePoint, Dynamics (CRM and Navision)? If not what kind of help do you need to master ANY one of these technologies? E-Mail: c-sharp-asp.net@saltech.co.ke
@Murigi, thanks for the info. my opinion below : On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Murigi Muraya <mmskunkworks@gmail.com>wrote:
Formal 'Associations' are too unproductive (=boring) for software engineers. Formal stuff works better for software entrepreneurs and firms / organizations. These are the kinds of settings that discuss standards.
*But how do we intend to create more programmers and more awareness of programming in the 4 major languages or popular ones without any structure? Structure will mean something that takes the form of very regular mashups, an association and or even any organised manner where whatever software/web programmers can look for support, discuss, strategize on ideas and take the commercial aspects to higher levels . To me without this structure, where do people start from and maintain continuity?* ** *One key factor of achieving any large scale success with anything has always been co-ordinated, organized team work. The idea is not to introduce red tape or bureaucracy, rather get away from it and get moving. And I think the sector does not have many options either. We soon need to embrace an organised system or continue facing code outsourcing. To many who are resourceful, code does not have to take place locally if those advantages and conditions do not exist, there are plenty of places that are willing to do it or get it. We also need to comeup with how to go about paying programmers to re-write code and also start developing solutions for what would work locally. * On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Murigi Muraya <mmskunkworks@gmail.com>wrote: Developer communities are the informal associations that work best to complement Projects that Pay developers to do what they love. Good example below: Please forward to .Net consultants looking to be more COOPERATIVE (= less Solo Moving) and to learn (c#asp.net) from others and to get or provide skills or support for their own or other projects. 1. Are you willing to sublet space in Westlands for your own (1 to 12 month) projects? If so, for how much? If not in Westlands, then where? 2. What kinds of standards and practices (e.g. certification, code reviews) will you provide to improve the quality of work to be forthcoming from our 'associations'? 3. What would you pay for the kind software or solutions you build or customize? 4. Do you have good experience with Microsoft SQL, SharePoint, Dynamics (CRM and Navision)? If not what kind of help do you need to master ANY one of these technologies? *The above is a good example of a .Net language, though you may need to clarify about Point 1 ? . What about other languages like php, java etc? Can they also not operate under a single umbrella? * Rgds.
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 3:45 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
@Murigi, thanks for the info. my opinion below :
*One key factor of achieving any large scale success with anything has always been co-ordinated, organized team work....*
= = This is what software firms / organizations are about. Developers hate meetings. So some of us have to do (Business) meetings for developers otherwise they would have little business (projects) to speak of. http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html What is most ridiculous in Kenya is developers not occasionally getting together to lift each other up - skill and reputation (business) wise - resulting in few notable apps to speak off - which probably exist in many developer heads & hard drives in Kenya. If Wesley did not have good PR skills, would never have come across him in some online publications. If Conrad was not into answering obscure developer questions online, who would have recognized his skills out there? *The above is a good example of a .Net language, though you may need to
clarify about Point 1 ? . What about other languages like php, java etc? Can they also not operate under a single umbrella?*
It is part of the Java / FOSS culture to engage in MS bashing. This is the reason why most .Net developers are not interested in skunkworks. Many started out as hard core FOSSists until work (not college) got them into .Net. As such many of them also work with PHP. One told me last week they have no time for types who know nothing about .Net but specialize on negative commentary about anything MS. Now, guess who is doing most enterprise (intranet and extranet) apps in Kenya today?
*Corrections welcome :-)* On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Murigi Muraya <mmskunkworks@gmail.com>wrote:
What is most ridiculous in Kenya is developers not occasionally getting together to lift each other up - skill and reputation (business) wise - resulting in few notable apps to speak off - which probably exist in many developer heads & hard drives in Kenya.
*I don't consider myself a developer and not for another 2 years at least, thus my involvement is based more about what the future holds. * *Murigi, what you describe above is self inflicting suicide if developers are doing these things. It benefits no one and neither is anyone going to hit at some magic wand app that will change their lives over night. Such things belong in a " fairy tale " or a distant mirage. Reality is we have to struggle 10 times more than other countries to even get where they are with apps etc and chances are even greater that the app has already been done.* ** *As " under dogs " from a developing country who have more to prove than necessary, unless we change and become atheletes, that recognition is not going to happen. We don't have an iota of code out there neither do we have commercial apps that would place us anywhere.* *Why would we choose such a self destructive path? What excatly is causing these problems? What are the solutions?* ** *I definately see the strengths of software developers/coders/etc association where all java, php, .net, c++, c can come together under one umbrella and a common cause, with guidance from those in the industry.*
*The above is a good example of a .Net language, though you may need to
clarify about Point 1 ? . What about other languages like php, java etc? Can they also not operate under a single umbrella?*
It is part of the Java / FOSS culture to engage in MS bashing. This is the reason why most .Net developers are not interested in skunkworks. Many started out as hard core FOSSists until work (not college) got them into .Net. As such many of them also work with PHP. One told me last week they have no time for types who know nothing about .Net but specialize on negative commentary about anything MS. Now, guess who is doing most enterprise (intranet and extranet) apps in Kenya today?
*I read an interesting article the other day and the comments from a CEO made a lot of sense. When people are in college, foss is all fine etc but when someone has a family and bills to pay, going out on commercial proprietory systems pays. The problem with foss is that its commercial payback is based on support. That demand for support is reducing as companies are encouraging their inhouse IT people to learn and support such systems and with google, well need I say more....* ** *A further research on the net revealed that 92% of all desktop apps are Microsoft while others hold the other %. So those going after MS in developing countries are people who have been paid to do so through commercial undertakings or partnerships, or have other revenues to sustain their rants or are just plain silly. * ** *There is a bottom line to this. Politics and Economic change will bring good or bad news world over, we are no different. How long before we see that in Africa we are just simple END USERS of commercial games being played out in corporate board rooms out there whether proprietory or open source. We are the test bed of many things so until we write our own code, develop our own OS etc there is no justified reason to build defensive lines just because of systems. **I would add that .Net guys should join skunks and also add their veiws, get a thicker skin and move on to what is more important than rants. * ** *BTW, I'm a FreeBSD believer but I can tell you that even Linux people have a problem with this. I personally do not care, I get my work done and results whether proprietory or open. And now Iphone and steve jobs seem to be a new target, the net is full of articles. :-)* ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **
Reading this thread gives me a feeling of deja vu. Here are my thoughts 1. I have found that most good developers are rarely willing to help their peers when it comes to teaching newbies or expounding at length at something they know well. This is different from answering the odd question. Of course there are exceptions with fellows like Graham and Michael Wakahe but buy and large those who are good at their craft are reluctant to teach 2. This OS/language/platform quibbling is an inevitable stage in growth in the industry, and is a good sign of passion and enthusiasm. But if 5 years later in the industry you are still a hardliner and refuse to acknowledge any view of your own, that to me smacks of myopia and immaturity and I find it difficult to take such people seriously. Complete hypocricy to complain at politicans about PNU/ODM wars and we are no better when it comes to acknowledging alternate views. We have much bigger immediate problems that require our time as opposed to arguing over gcc/ csc or DIR / LS. Nobody cares how sausages are made. They just care that they taste good. 3. I also think the way to prosperity for developers is to come together and share. Whether this is under formal auspices or is informal is neither here nor there. Which is why we set up AfricaDotNet. There are no strings attached and no agendas. Come, present on some technology related topic and listen to others. Meet your peers and share what you know. 4. It behooves any serious individual in the industry to keep a finger on the pulse of the same. Things change. If you are serious you need to move with the change. If you are a PHP guy you should know what's new in PHP 6 and what's so good about it. If you're a java guy you should know what the Grails guys are trying. If you're a .NET guy you should be investigating Silverlight 4. And to make things even more interesting, you should find out what the guys in the other camp are doing and leverage it. Like i tell my team time and time again -- this industry is not monogamous. There is no law that says you must be exclusively in one camp. 5. The only way i see our budding industry succeeding is if we take it seriously as a profession and not a glorified hobby. We must be willing to do things outside our comfort zone. Besides exploring outside our preferred platforms and languages. Software is not just coding. There is analysis, design, documentation, training, quality assurance and support. All these seem to fall by the wayside when it comes to locally developed software. @Aki That 92% statistic I find difficult to believe. It is too high. Could you cite your source? On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:03 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
*Corrections welcome :-)*
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Murigi Muraya <mmskunkworks@gmail.com>wrote:
What is most ridiculous in Kenya is developers not occasionally getting together to lift each other up - skill and reputation (business) wise - resulting in few notable apps to speak off - which probably exist in many developer heads & hard drives in Kenya.
*I don't consider myself a developer and not for another 2 years at least, thus my involvement is based more about what the future holds. *
*Murigi, what you describe above is self inflicting suicide if developers are doing these things. It benefits no one and neither is anyone going to hit at some magic wand app that will change their lives over night. Such things belong in a " fairy tale " or a distant mirage. Reality is we have to struggle 10 times more than other countries to even get where they are with apps etc and chances are even greater that the app has already been done.* ** *As " under dogs " from a developing country who have more to prove than necessary, unless we change and become atheletes, that recognition is not going to happen. We don't have an iota of code out there neither do we have commercial apps that would place us anywhere.*
*Why would we choose such a self destructive path? What excatly is causing these problems? What are the solutions?* ** *I definately see the strengths of software developers/coders/etc association where all java, php, .net, c++, c can come together under one umbrella and a common cause, with guidance from those in the industry.*
*The above is a good example of a .Net language, though you may need
to clarify about Point 1 ? . What about other languages like php, java etc? Can they also not operate under a single umbrella?*
It is part of the Java / FOSS culture to engage in MS bashing. This is the reason why most .Net developers are not interested in skunkworks. Many started out as hard core FOSSists until work (not college) got them into .Net. As such many of them also work with PHP. One told me last week they have no time for types who know nothing about .Net but specialize on negative commentary about anything MS. Now, guess who is doing most enterprise (intranet and extranet) apps in Kenya today?
*I read an interesting article the other day and the comments from a CEO made a lot of sense. When people are in college, foss is all fine etc but when someone has a family and bills to pay, going out on commercial proprietory systems pays. The problem with foss is that its commercial payback is based on support. That demand for support is reducing as companies are encouraging their inhouse IT people to learn and support such systems and with google, well need I say more....* ** *A further research on the net revealed that 92% of all desktop apps are Microsoft while others hold the other %. So those going after MS in developing countries are people who have been paid to do so through commercial undertakings or partnerships, or have other revenues to sustain their rants or are just plain silly. * ** *There is a bottom line to this. Politics and Economic change will bring good or bad news world over, we are no different. How long before we see that in Africa we are just simple END USERS of commercial games being played out in corporate board rooms out there whether proprietory or open source. We are the test bed of many things so until we write our own code, develop our own OS etc there is no justified reason to build defensive lines just because of systems. **I would add that .Net guys should join skunks and also add their veiws, get a thicker skin and move on to what is more important than rants. * ** *BTW, I'm a FreeBSD believer but I can tell you that even Linux people have a problem with this. I personally do not care, I get my work done and results whether proprietory or open. And now Iphone and steve jobs seem to be a new target, the net is full of articles. :-)*
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki That 92% statistic I find difficult to believe. It is too high. Could you cite your source?
@Rad, I read the article months ago, will look it up and provide the source asap. If the figures are in dispute, what are they currently at? Cheers. :-)
I don't know the exact figure, but I'm finding it difficult to swallow that out of every 100 desktop apps, only 8 are exclusively on Mac, Unix and Linux. Given that apple has about 10% market share I winder about that 8% http://www.lockergnome.com/blade/2009/10/15/apple-market-share-continues-to-... On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:16 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki That 92% statistic I find difficult to believe. It is too high. Could you cite your source?
@Rad, I read the article months ago, will look it up and provide the source asap. If the figures are in dispute, what are they currently at?
Cheers. :-)
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Local ware does not necessarily have to be non free, I think local freeware will be a really good deal. On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know the exact figure, but I'm finding it difficult to swallow that out of every 100 desktop apps, only 8 are exclusively on Mac, Unix and Linux. Given that apple has about 10% market share I winder about that 8% http://www.lockergnome.com/blade/2009/10/15/apple-market-share-continues-to-...
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:16 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki That 92% statistic I find difficult to believe. It is too high. Could you cite your source?
@Rad, I read the article months ago, will look it up and provide the source asap. If the figures are in dispute, what are they currently at?
Cheers. :-)
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On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:23 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know the exact figure, but I'm finding it difficult to swallow that out of every 100 desktop apps, only 8 are exclusively on Mac, Unix and Linux. Given that apple has about 10% market share I winder about that 8% http://www.lockergnome.com/blade/2009/10/15/apple-market-share-continues-to-...
I think thats 10% of the US market for apple... their worldwide market share is much lower i guess (probably lower than even linux market share...)
participants (6)
-
aki -
ashok+skunkworks＠parliaments.info -
Murigi Muraya -
Rad! -
solomon kariri -
Steve Obbayi