Wash,

From zain, please call another zain line, press a digit from the calling phone, you should hear a sound/tone on the other phone. That will show whether DTMF is available in that network.

Tito. 2009/8/18 Steve Muchai <smuchai@gmail.com>

2009/8/18 Odhiambo ワシントン <odhiambo@gmail.com>:

...

Hello Skunks,

Hi Wash,

...

When I was almost hitting my /etc (End of Thinking Capacity), I figured out I could try swapping the Zain line for a safaricom line, just a hunch. I did this and voila! DTMF worked. Now after much testing, I realize that DTMF works from Zain <->Safaricom, from Zain->Telkom but NOT from Zain->Zain. Could this just be a misconfiguration on Zain's systems or a security

Could be be either....IMHO

...

feature that they implemented and know about? Is there a reason a GSM operator would want to block DTMF on their systems?

Probably...may many reasons... :)

...

I am asking this because I have wasted almost 72 hours on this, only to come and realize this "anomaly" on Zain's network. I'm really pissed off with Zain. However the system I am implementing MUST work with Zain so I need some clues before I go knocking on their doors to enable DTMF.

PS: Pinging.... Kennedy Nyarotho, or who was that on this list who knew so much about GSM? :-)

Will help you ping some guys offlist, who'd have much more clue than me ..then you can post your "happily ever after" later.

BR, S _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general

Wash, If you can hear the tones from the destination side, it means they are tx to the destination point. Tried it myself, from Zain-Zain, cannot hear the tones at the destination. Tried for Zain-saf and saf-saf, and saf-Zain, the tones can be heard.. i would come to the same conclusion. Maybe raise it with Zain? Tito. 2009/8/19 Odhiambo ワシントン <odhiambo@gmail.com>

2009/8/19 Njoroge Tito <titonjoroge@gmail.com>

...

Wash,

From zain, please call another zain line, press a digit from the calling phone, you should hear a sound/tone on the other phone. That will show whether DTMF is available in that network.

Hi Tito,

Hearing the tones and having the tones recognized/TX to the destination point are two different things, IMHO but I am no expert in this line. I am serious when I say Zain is not allowing DTMF from Zain to Zain though.

-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "If you have nothing good to say about someone, just shut up!." -- Lucky Dube

_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 6:58 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:

@Wash, they support dtmf, as their voice mail system runs IVR. Have you tried a different codec, or pls check the log of the gateway. It is strongly possible that they dont support dtmf inbound except for their own tools. I had a run in with Kencell a few years ago when designing an inbound data sessions system. They were blocking both CSD and GPRS inbound on their network and it never got resolved. I had to move to safcom for this. And also discovered that most ATMs were using safcom data CSD for their sessions.

@Aki, I will try a different codec and test both Safaricom and Zain. The only reason I will do this is because while testing with Safaricom, I had a "slaky" function on my system in which the end system seemed to not get the correct DTMFs. I'd dial something like 3595 and the system would tell me it got 355995, or something different. So I am open to suggestions still but will get back once I try a different codec anyway. PS: How comes you know all these things? Now I agree with what someone once said here - that Wikipedia uses you as reference point:-) -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "If you have nothing good to say about someone, just shut up!." -- Lucky Dube

Sometimes I feel we burn ourselves out "reinventing the wheel" - even where standards exist. e.g. "JTC 1/SC 6 - Telecommunications and information exchange between systems" <http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_tc_browse.htm?commid=45072> Since should not exclude the possibility that some of the operators could be e-dumping old network equipment here, I would suggest one starts by finding out which, if, any and why an operator is not conforming/compliant with set ISO standards..then take up the matter with CCK/KEBS. Success example? All mobicos "air time meters" are now being inspected to ensure that they are properly calibrated to charge by the international second/minute standard. Thanks to standards setting participation at KEBS+some sharp advocacy:-) regards, Alex

@Wash, been off-air for a while. am amazed at the responses, quite informed. I think Zain are security conscious here coz DTMF is a signalling format- anyone good with the algorithms used (probably disgruntled employees of equipment manufacturer) can hack into the system though its tedious- imagine being in control of Zap/mpesa transfers! I personally know that DTMF can be decoded using the Goertzel algorithm or some other advanced algorithm. i dont think safcom are aware of this vulnerability, but it can be explained coz i think they(Saf n Zain) have contracts with different equipment vendors. I have not delved much into DTMF area but the little have learnt is all out. if that is the Tito i know then you are probably getting the best response this half of the Sahara! @muchai, i am in need of your assistance........concerning IMS Networks, ping me when you are not very busy. thanks n God bless y'all! On 8/20/09, Odhiambo ワシントン <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:

2009/8/19 Njoroge Tito <titonjoroge@gmail.com>

...

Wash,

Can you confirm if your gateway supports out of band DTMF?

GSM architecture allows for both inband (the ones you can hear) and out of band DTMF (you cannot hear these). For out of band DTMF, your modem/gateway would need to support out of band DTMF for proper detection.

Tito,

I wish I was in a position to answer you correctly on your question but I am not a telecomms engineer so I know I can't. Looking at the DTMF parameters configuration, I can only see DTMF types - Alphanum and Signal. Not sure what is what there:-) However, on the destination, I can see the option to enable/disable "out of band" DTMF. My argument is only based on the actual situation I am in - mostly from the actual tests I carried out. I'll have to read volumes to be able to answer you. My GSM gateway is a 2N Voice Blue Enterprise, Model 505204E. It has 4 MC39i Siemens GSM phones inside it, thus it takes 4 SIM cards. Maybe you can check it out at www.2n.cz, but what my concern was about is the fact that from my testing:

*From Zain --> Zain, DTMF not working* From Zain --> Safaricom, DTMF working From Zain --> Telkom, DTMF working From Safaricom --> Safaricom, DTMF working *From Safaricom --> Zain, DTMF not working * @Aki, I have tried changing the codecs between G.711 ALAW 64k and G.711 ULAW 64k (for those are the ones supported between the GSM and the PBX) but that did not change the equation. At least I don't have a codecs mismatch:)

@Muchai, have you managed to ping those folks at Zain? I'd be most grateful since this project is taking all my time.

-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "If you have nothing good to say about someone, just shut up!." -- Lucky Dube

-- People should know when they are conquered.

2009/8/19 Odhiambo ワシントン odhiambo@gmail.com

@Aki,

PS: How comes you know all these things? Now I agree with what someone once said here - that Wikipedia uses you as reference point:-)

Hi @Wash, thnks for the compliment, the knowledge comes from tinkering with technology. :-) Since I joined skunkslist, I've seen kenya has a lot of tech talent on this list from mail server and internet gurus as your self, to networks to coders or anywhere technology can happen. Skunkslist is a pool of extremely talented people and I hope it continues to be a sharing platform like this. When the door sign says " come in and you shall not be judged on appearance nor affiliations etc ", we have set forth a precedent that not even politicans can dream of. A platform to be treasured and protected thanks to the founders of the list. Yesterday, while offlist with Stephen Ndungu's query about GSM and QOS, I saw the talent pool that this country has. Bernard Mwagiru is one heck of a telco layer guy. This guy, like many on the list, eats and drinks technology... :-) What we need is more active contributions from other tech gurus who can make the platform even more interesting. And they are plenty on this list. *They need to become more active and skunkslist will become the Wikipedia of tech sector in this country.* So this compliment goes out to all those on the list who take time to contribute and create awareness of technology through problem discussions in open discussions. Great one! :-) Me few words......

2009/8/24 Daniel kamau <kamaud@gmail.com>

Odhiambo ,

DTMF tones are enabled on our Zain MSC-S. It’s not restricted to our interconnect partners as he has reported, but it also works from Zain to Zain.

Hi Daniel, What is MSC-S? ;-) I can bet my life that DTMF does not work from Zain to Zain. I have a Zain engineer trying to find a solution to this problem since I reported but we are still at square 1 since last week.

I made a test call; Zain-to-Zain and DTMF was being sent. Attached are the traces to prove this.

Oh, really. Where are the traces (not that I even know how to read them!)? Anyway, if you want proof, please call 0732 325666 from a Zain line and follow the prompts. My test extensions is 3504 or 3340. Try and get me on any of them (*3504 or *3340). You will for sure be sent to a fallback extension (for a Hunt Group) because the DTMF will not do. Once this fails, you can call me on my Zain number (0733 744121) and I will put a Safaricom line on the same system and let you call it and run/compare the same tests. It's not a bluff.

We also have IVR applications that work from DTMF and yet they are operational. For instance, 155, 222, etc…I still don’t see why it shouldn’t work.

The only reason mine wouldn't work would be if the GSM gateway I use favors Safaricom rather than Zain but I wonder how it will get to differentiate between them:-) -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "If you have nothing good to say about someone, just shut up!." -- Lucky Dube

2009/8/26 Daniel kamau <kamaud@gmail.com>

Boss i sense ignorance if you are pointing fingers yet you dont even know what MSCS is.Which engineer from zain, am also an engineer from zain

True. I am ignorant on this area as I already mentioned that I am not a telecoms engineer:-) I have been talking to Vincent Mayabi of Zain. I guess you work with him. He's been able to test the system and did not succeed -- same way I did not. Initially he wanted to run a test with older type SIM card - 32KB or something. I have a SIM card which I think might meet that criteria - the old "Yes!" SIM cards. This did not work. Now what he's told me is that: (1) DTMF would only work for me if I was connected to Zain via an E1 (like Call Centres do). I am not sure I can go that direction. (2) I need an equipment that supports out-of-band DTMF. Now, that is another long shot! I have sent a query to the manufacturer to tell me whether the equipment does handle both in-band and out-of-band DTMF. Again, I tried to argue (as a layman) why it is that this GSM gateway would work well in the scenario where I have a Safaricom line in it. In this scenario, calling it from Safaricom, from Zain and from Telkom works okay. BUT when I have a Zain line in it then calling from Zain or Safaricom does not work. He told me that Safaricom must be supporting in-band DTMF while Zain does not. Why? Because that's an internal decision within Zain. If you can help unravel the mystery, I'd be so happy as honestly, implementing this service with a Safaricom line means I have to get a couple of guys who are going to rely on this system to discard their Zain lines and start using Safaricom. I'm talking about 20 people,which I think is significant and that gives me headache elsewhere. Looking forward to your advise as I find this quite confusing. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "If you have nothing good to say about someone, just shut up!." -- Lucky Dube

2009/8/27 Philip Njenga <njengaphilip@gmail.com>

I also tried using DTMF for a project I was doing back in 2006-2007. Like you [odhiambo] I was also using an IP PBX connected with a GSM unit The DTMF was working perfect with a safaricom line but id not work at all with a Zain line. Since i did not 'need' to use the zain line, I never raised the issue with zain [ celtel at that time I guess] engineers then. I just used the Safaricom line. It seemed to me that zain had blocked DTMF on the second leg of a call [the receiveing end] Thats was why their internal IVR systems could work with DTMF but my zain line could not. They were simply not forwarding the DTMF signals on the second leg of the call where my GSM unit lay. I could be wrong and the reason could be very different, that was just my initial thought. It seems this issue has persisted for a long time if guys are still facing the same problem. Either the zain engineers are not aware of this problem or it was set like that intentionally. Can someone in Zain please look at this issue and sort it.

Hi Philip, Zain are urging me to take up an E1 service in order to have my system working. That is a huge cost that I am not ready to incur. Your description seems to rightly point where the problem is and given the communication I am getting from Zain, I am slowly beginning to hate the operator for this simple reason. Perhaps it's time we started considering where to move our eggs as this nest is getting colder... -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "If you have nothing good to say about someone, just shut up!." -- Lucky Dube

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 4:50 PM, James Mutuku <listmutuku@gmail.com> wrote:

@odhiambo...must you use zain?

and on E1 costs...I wonder why they are so expensive. I once had a client who wanted to setup celtel e1. the terms and conditions were just out of this world.

The people I am implementing the system for use Zain. It's a Zain shop. You know the 10 preferred numbers thing, right? So they call one another at 3 bob per minute or something, which turns out very cheap for them so they'd rather use Zain. I cud use Yu, since I hear they have some nice corporate offers, but that would require me to convince the people to drop Zain. You know how difficult dropping a number is, right? Number portability is either not yet decided by CCK or blocked by the operators. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "If you have nothing good to say about someone, just shut up!." -- Lucky Dube