Hi all. Much has been said on this forum about government, organisations and companies not giving much work to developers who do are not companies. having spoken to a few people who could give the contracts etc., i understood them to say that the concerns were that their concerns are:- 1. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers level of quality. 2. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers delivery time - that they will deliver everything they say they will at the appointed time 3. That they require too much supervision 4. That they over promise. 5. The development of a website/application requires several competences - designer, IA, developer, integrator etc. The contention is that you guys don't/won't work together as a team. Here's a question: If an organisation/ company was to decide to do a call for entries/ tender of sorts for a significant web project to be delivered by a team of freelance individuals from this forum, can it be done? The sub-parts of these question are:- a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless? b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate) c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you? d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this? Here's my thinking. A lot of the developers and other related professionals here are passionate and really good at what they do, and they often just need a chance. Not everyone can be employed by the 3mice etc of this world and so its a challenge to give everyone a chance. Given the concerns expressed by the client group, the onus is on interested people here to prove to them that the model of contracting individual freelance professionals here is a workable one. I know one organisation that would be interested in trying it out. So before they make a further move, I bring the idea here to you and ask, what is possible? -- Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com
Actually it's the ICT Board that needs a senior staff member with knowledge on the subject in order to offer leadership. This has been lacking for a long time. On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Al Kags<alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
Much has been said on this forum about government, organisations and companies not giving much work to developers who do are not companies. having spoken to a few people who could give the contracts etc., i understood them to say that the concerns were that their concerns are:-
1. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers level of quality. 2. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers delivery time - that they will deliver everything they say they will at the appointed time 3. That they require too much supervision 4. That they over promise. 5. The development of a website/application requires several competences - designer, IA, developer, integrator etc. The contention is that you guys don't/won't work together as a team.
Here's a question:
If an organisation/ company was to decide to do a call for entries/ tender of sorts for a significant web project to be delivered by a team of freelance individuals from this forum, can it be done?
The sub-parts of these question are:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
Here's my thinking. A lot of the developers and other related professionals here are passionate and really good at what they do, and they often just need a chance. Not everyone can be employed by the 3mice etc of this world and so its a challenge to give everyone a chance.
Given the concerns expressed by the client group, the onus is on interested people here to prove to them that the model of contracting individual freelance professionals here is a workable one.
I know one organisation that would be interested in trying it out. So before they make a further move, I bring the idea here to you and ask,
what is possible?
-- Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
Colleagues,
From Alex's rejoinder and from Barrack's response under a variated subject line, I am left with no choice but to think that this team does not have the capacity to work together as a team viz my specific questions - not without government leadership from what I understand.
I notice that no one bothered to answer the questions as asked and so on the specific matters I raise, I am not able to know whether or not this team has any capacity that I or the organisations I mentioned may need. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but the following questions have not been addressed:- a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless? b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate) c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you? d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this? To this end, it occurs to me that the easiest option is to simply ask for companies to express interest and go that "usual route"? Interestingly a number of companies have been quick to send me expressions of interest (which defeats the purpose, if the original proposition was to give developers who are freelancers a chance? By the way: I really do think we should not create an impression that government should hand-hold the ICT industry in terms of enterprise development. That should be the role of entrepreneurs. Government should be following the money makers - not the other way round. My views. Cheers. Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:29 AM, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>wrote:
Actually it's the ICT Board that needs a senior staff member with knowledge on the subject in order to offer leadership. This has been lacking for a long time.
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Al Kags<alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
Much has been said on this forum about government, organisations and companies not giving much work to developers who do are not companies. having spoken to a few people who could give the contracts etc., i understood them to say that the concerns were that their concerns are:-
1. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers level of quality. 2. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers delivery time - that they will deliver everything they say they will at the appointed time 3. That they require too much supervision 4. That they over promise. 5. The development of a website/application requires several competences - designer, IA, developer, integrator etc. The contention is that you guys don't/won't work together as a team.
Here's a question:
If an organisation/ company was to decide to do a call for entries/ tender of sorts for a significant web project to be delivered by a team of freelance individuals from this forum, can it be done?
The sub-parts of these question are:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
Here's my thinking. A lot of the developers and other related professionals here are passionate and really good at what they do, and they often just need a chance. Not everyone can be employed by the 3mice etc of this world and so its a challenge to give everyone a chance.
Given the concerns expressed by the client group, the onus is on interested people here to prove to them that the model of contracting individual freelance professionals here is a workable one.
I know one organisation that would be interested in trying it out. So before they make a further move, I bring the idea here to you and ask,
what is possible?
-- Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
Al Kags I propose that one of the skunkworks meetings be set aside to discuss this Agenda since you have raised very valid issues despite the fact that we didn't answer you, i am sure Alex is really good at such issues as well as other skunks on the list, i do a lot of training on project management and am willing to deliver a free talk given the chance, your presence would also be handy to moderate the discussion alongside Alex and probably Evans Ikua , because i saw it among the writeups on your blog (al kags .com), what do the rest think? My Thoughts On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Al Kags <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Colleagues,
From Alex's rejoinder and from Barrack's response under a variated subject line, I am left with no choice but to think that this team does not have the capacity to work together as a team viz my specific questions - not without government leadership from what I understand.
I notice that no one bothered to answer the questions as asked and so on the specific matters I raise, I am not able to know whether or not this team has any capacity that I or the organisations I mentioned may need. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but the following questions have not been addressed:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
To this end, it occurs to me that the easiest option is to simply ask for companies to express interest and go that "usual route"? Interestingly a number of companies have been quick to send me expressions of interest (which defeats the purpose, if the original proposition was to give developers who are freelancers a chance?
By the way: I really do think we should not create an impression that government should hand-hold the ICT industry in terms of enterprise development. That should be the role of entrepreneurs. Government should be following the money makers - not the other way round. My views.
Cheers.
Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:29 AM, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>wrote:
Actually it's the ICT Board that needs a senior staff member with knowledge on the subject in order to offer leadership. This has been lacking for a long time.
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Al Kags<alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
Much has been said on this forum about government, organisations and companies not giving much work to developers who do are not companies. having spoken to a few people who could give the contracts etc., i understood them to say that the concerns were that their concerns are:-
1. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers level of quality. 2. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers delivery time - that they will deliver everything they say they will at the appointed time 3. That they require too much supervision 4. That they over promise. 5. The development of a website/application requires several competences - designer, IA, developer, integrator etc. The contention is that you guys don't/won't work together as a team.
Here's a question:
If an organisation/ company was to decide to do a call for entries/ tender of sorts for a significant web project to be delivered by a team of freelance individuals from this forum, can it be done?
The sub-parts of these question are:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
Here's my thinking. A lot of the developers and other related professionals here are passionate and really good at what they do, and they often just need a chance. Not everyone can be employed by the 3mice etc of this world and so its a challenge to give everyone a chance.
Given the concerns expressed by the client group, the onus is on interested people here to prove to them that the model of contracting individual freelance professionals here is a workable one.
I know one organisation that would be interested in trying it out. So before they make a further move, I bring the idea here to you and ask,
what is possible?
-- Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- Barrack O. Otieno ISSEN CONSULTING Tel: +254721325277 +254733206359 http://projectdiscovery.or.ke To give up the task of reforming society is to give up ones responsibility as a free man. Alan Paton, South Africa
Hi Al, some of us are not developers on the list but layer 1-4, so unfortunately cannot respond to your query. If your project queries ever cover the above layers, please do not hesitate to raise the queries. Rgds.
Al, I dont have the answers to all your questions, but would like to comment on the fourth one. d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this? 1. I like the fact that you mention that this is an "untried" model. Meaning that it is new, and therefore requires time and careful thought into how practical it would be. While it is nice to have this proposition, it is also wise to consider the dynamics of freelancing. Most (if not all) freelancers work independently, and in few occasions, as part of a team. Perhaps the reason why people are taking time to respond is because a freelancer needs to be proffessional, and it is best to avoid having to "promise too much" before carefully thinking how workable the model would be. 2. The fact that this is a new model shows that there is a need for this type of interaction between freelancers, which points out a new level of opportunities! 3. If each freelancer would sign an individual contract and get paid individually, wouldnt it be easier then for the company to just contract the freelancers on individual basis instead of the team approach? that way, they eliminate the need to hire a project manager, and use their already existing internal/outsourcing project manager. At the end of the day, its biashara - cutting costs and maximizing profits! 4. When it comes to bidding, of course, the proposing company would critically look at all bidders, and what experience they have, what they have done before etc.....Even if a team of freelancers was to come up with an impressive portfolio - amidst other companies bidding for the project, I would be interested in knowing one thing: Is the need to test the new model so so vital that the team of freelancers would gain some level of leverage in the competition? Regards, Muthoni On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Al Kags <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Colleagues,
From Alex's rejoinder and from Barrack's response under a variated subject line, I am left with no choice but to think that this team does not have the capacity to work together as a team viz my specific questions - not without government leadership from what I understand.
I notice that no one bothered to answer the questions as asked and so on the specific matters I raise, I am not able to know whether or not this team has any capacity that I or the organisations I mentioned may need. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but the following questions have not been addressed:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
To this end, it occurs to me that the easiest option is to simply ask for companies to express interest and go that "usual route"? Interestingly a number of companies have been quick to send me expressions of interest (which defeats the purpose, if the original proposition was to give developers who are freelancers a chance?
By the way: I really do think we should not create an impression that government should hand-hold the ICT industry in terms of enterprise development. That should be the role of entrepreneurs. Government should be following the money makers - not the other way round. My views.
Cheers.
Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:29 AM, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>wrote:
Actually it's the ICT Board that needs a senior staff member with knowledge on the subject in order to offer leadership. This has been lacking for a long time.
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Al Kags<alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
Much has been said on this forum about government, organisations and companies not giving much work to developers who do are not companies. having spoken to a few people who could give the contracts etc., i understood them to say that the concerns were that their concerns are:-
1. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers level of quality. 2. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers delivery time - that they will deliver everything they say they will at the appointed time 3. That they require too much supervision 4. That they over promise. 5. The development of a website/application requires several competences - designer, IA, developer, integrator etc. The contention is that you guys don't/won't work together as a team.
Here's a question:
If an organisation/ company was to decide to do a call for entries/ tender of sorts for a significant web project to be delivered by a team of freelance individuals from this forum, can it be done?
The sub-parts of these question are:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
Here's my thinking. A lot of the developers and other related professionals here are passionate and really good at what they do, and they often just need a chance. Not everyone can be employed by the 3mice etc of this world and so its a challenge to give everyone a chance.
Given the concerns expressed by the client group, the onus is on interested people here to prove to them that the model of contracting individual freelance professionals here is a workable one.
I know one organisation that would be interested in trying it out. So before they make a further move, I bring the idea here to you and ask,
what is possible?
-- Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
Muthoni, Thank you for engaging me at the level that respnds to my queries. I place some responses in your text below: Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Leah Riungu <leah.riungu@gmail.com> wrote:
Al,
I dont have the answers to all your questions, but would like to comment on the fourth one.
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
1. I like the fact that you mention that this is an "untried" model. Meaning that it is new, and therefore requires time and careful thought into how practical it would be. While it is nice to have this proposition, it is also wise to consider the dynamics of freelancing. Most (if not all) freelancers work independently, and in few occasions, as part of a team. Perhaps the reason why people are taking time to respond is because a freelancer needs to be proffessional, and it is best to avoid having to "promise too much" before carefully thinking how workable the model would be.
*This is acceptable. Indeed such a model would requore some thought into the dynamics of freelancing and exploring new ground in how freelancers work together. Of course one of the things to freelance teams is that they would need to get along have worked or interacted together in some level so that they have an understanding of how each works.*
2. The fact that this is a new model shows that there is a need for this type of interaction between freelancers, which points out a new level of opportunities!
*There are two opportunities ready for try out that I am aware of!!*
3. If each freelancer would sign an individual contract and get paid individually, wouldnt it be easier then for the company to just contract the freelancers on individual basis instead of the team approach? that way, they eliminate the need to hire a project manager, and use their already existing internal/outsourcing project manager. At the end of the day, its biashara - cutting costs and maximizing profits!
*Actually no. The issue of contracting and payment is separate from one of team work. on the contracting and payment front, since the team would be coming in ad-hoc, they would not be coming as one entity but rather as a consortium of entities where each individual = an entity. So this is merely a process issue. On the team work front, the client company would be recognising that they dont have the capacity or the time to manage the project and yet would need to be comfortable that the team is working together to deliver a cohesive high quality product while tapping to the collective for possible innovation and transparency. The team becomes responsible collectively to the delivery of the project to avoid such conversations as: "but I delivered ny bit, you talk to the other guy who hasn't delivered on his.." etc. hence: Collective responsibility, transparency and collective delivery. What a company provides while givig freelance guys access to the opportunity.*
4. When it comes to bidding, of course, the proposing company would critically look at all bidders, and what experience they have, what they have done before etc.....Even if a team of freelancers was to come up with an impressive portfolio - amidst other companies bidding for the project, I would be interested in knowing one thing: Is the need to test the new model so so vital that the team of freelancers would gain some level of leverage in the competition?
*Were this group to elect to try the model out, then this is how I would see it playing out:- 1. Client would announce on this forum a call for expression of interest describing the particulars of the project, what it hopes to achieve and what structure the expression of interest would take. 2. Relevant professionals would seek each other out and form an ad-hoc team and prepare a bid for the project, showing their capacity, experience, knowledge, how they would appraoch the project, by when, and the costs - here broken down to each skillset - etc. 3. Client would review the bids and invite a shortlist for a conversation in greater detail. 4. Client would award the contract to winning team and announce it in this forum. 5. Winning team would then make progress and ensure that members of this forum are aware of what they are doing - perhaps even providing a sandbox where skunkers could follow the progress and input into what they were doing. 6. Winning team would present completed project and collect payment. 7. Skunkworks, winning team and Client would do a bit of a media announcement showing how such a partnership was beneficial and encourage other organisations and companies to adopt similar practice. 7b. Skunkworks would do a post-mortem of how the model worked and how it could be improved. 8. SkunksRace would be offered by the Skunkworks group as a viable way for companies to implement IT projects. ///////// This is my thinking kwa sasa... Al Kags*
Regards, Muthoni
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Al Kags <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Colleagues,
From Alex's rejoinder and from Barrack's response under a variated subject line, I am left with no choice but to think that this team does not have the capacity to work together as a team viz my specific questions - not without government leadership from what I understand.
I notice that no one bothered to answer the questions as asked and so on the specific matters I raise, I am not able to know whether or not this team has any capacity that I or the organisations I mentioned may need. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but the following questions have not been addressed:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
To this end, it occurs to me that the easiest option is to simply ask for companies to express interest and go that "usual route"? Interestingly a number of companies have been quick to send me expressions of interest (which defeats the purpose, if the original proposition was to give developers who are freelancers a chance?
By the way: I really do think we should not create an impression that government should hand-hold the ICT industry in terms of enterprise development. That should be the role of entrepreneurs. Government should be following the money makers - not the other way round. My views.
Cheers.
Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:29 AM, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>wrote:
Actually it's the ICT Board that needs a senior staff member with knowledge on the subject in order to offer leadership. This has been lacking for a long time.
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Al Kags<alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
Much has been said on this forum about government, organisations and companies not giving much work to developers who do are not companies. having spoken to a few people who could give the contracts etc., i understood them to say that the concerns were that their concerns are:-
1. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers level of quality. 2. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers delivery time - that they will deliver everything they say they will at the appointed time 3. That they require too much supervision 4. That they over promise. 5. The development of a website/application requires several competences - designer, IA, developer, integrator etc. The contention is that you guys don't/won't work together as a team.
Here's a question:
If an organisation/ company was to decide to do a call for entries/ tender of sorts for a significant web project to be delivered by a team of freelance individuals from this forum, can it be done?
The sub-parts of these question are:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
Here's my thinking. A lot of the developers and other related professionals here are passionate and really good at what they do, and they often just need a chance. Not everyone can be employed by the 3mice etc of this world and so its a challenge to give everyone a chance.
Given the concerns expressed by the client group, the onus is on interested people here to prove to them that the model of contracting individual freelance professionals here is a workable one.
I know one organisation that would be interested in trying it out. So before they make a further move, I bring the idea here to you and ask,
what is possible?
-- Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
Developers always have extra time late at night to dive on development practices ETC but a lead developer and a Structure that will not exploit Developers and Programmers is not in place !
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Al Kags<alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Colleagues,
From Alex's rejoinder and from Barrack's response under a variated subject line, I am left with no choice but to think that this team does not have the capacity to work together as a team viz my specific questions - not without government leadership from what I understand.
I think this might be considered summarily harsh and conclusive... Hope the Board is not out to prove "how fragmented skunks are":-( It has happened before, and severally... ask why skunkwork@innovation got to be organised Board should not get touchy when their own capacity needs are pointed out...
I notice that no one bothered to answer the questions as asked and so on the specific matters I raise, I am not able to know whether or not this team has any capacity that I or the organisations I mentioned may need. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but the following questions have not been addressed:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
To this end, it occurs to me that the easiest option is to simply ask for companies to express interest and go that "usual route"? Interestingly a number of companies have been quick to send me expressions of interest (which defeats the purpose, if the original proposition was to give developers who are freelancers a chance?
By the way: I really do think we should not create an impression that government should hand-hold the ICT industry in terms of enterprise development. That should be the role of entrepreneurs. Government should be following the money makers - not the other way round. My views.
Cheers.
Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:29 AM, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually it's the ICT Board that needs a senior staff member with knowledge on the subject in order to offer leadership. This has been lacking for a long time.
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Al Kags<alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
Much has been said on this forum about government, organisations and companies not giving much work to developers who do are not companies. having spoken to a few people who could give the contracts etc., i understood them to say that the concerns were that their concerns are:-
1. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers level of quality. 2. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers delivery time - that they will deliver everything they say they will at the appointed time 3. That they require too much supervision 4. That they over promise. 5. The development of a website/application requires several competences - designer, IA, developer, integrator etc. The contention is that you guys don't/won't work together as a team.
Here's a question:
If an organisation/ company was to decide to do a call for entries/ tender of sorts for a significant web project to be delivered by a team of freelance individuals from this forum, can it be done?
The sub-parts of these question are:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
Here's my thinking. A lot of the developers and other related professionals here are passionate and really good at what they do, and they often just need a chance. Not everyone can be employed by the 3mice etc of this world and so its a challenge to give everyone a chance.
Given the concerns expressed by the client group, the onus is on interested people here to prove to them that the model of contracting individual freelance professionals here is a workable one.
I know one organisation that would be interested in trying it out. So before they make a further move, I bring the idea here to you and ask,
what is possible?
-- Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
Alex, Please be aware of my earlier disclaimer: I am not in this conversation or any other speaking on behalf of the Kenya ICT Board or the Government. I happen to be an individual and a citizen professional in Kenya who has individual opinions. only Paul Kukubo and the ICT board Communications Office can speak here or elsewhere for the board and only the PS can speak for govt on this issue in this forum. I speak here on my own behalf. Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>wrote:
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Al Kags<alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Colleagues,
From Alex's rejoinder and from Barrack's response under a variated subject line, I am left with no choice but to think that this team does not have the capacity to work together as a team viz my specific questions - not without government leadership from what I understand.
I think this might be considered summarily harsh and conclusive... Hope the Board is not out to prove "how fragmented skunks are":-( It has happened before, and severally... ask why skunkwork@innovation got to be organised
Board should not get touchy when their own capacity needs are pointed out...
I notice that no one bothered to answer the questions as asked and so on the specific matters I raise, I am not able to know whether or not this team has any capacity that I or the organisations I mentioned may need. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but the following questions have not been addressed:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
To this end, it occurs to me that the easiest option is to simply ask for companies to express interest and go that "usual route"? Interestingly a number of companies have been quick to send me expressions of interest (which defeats the purpose, if the original proposition was to give developers who are freelancers a chance?
By the way: I really do think we should not create an impression that government should hand-hold the ICT industry in terms of enterprise development. That should be the role of entrepreneurs. Government should be following the money makers - not the other way round. My views.
Cheers.
Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:29 AM, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com
wrote:
Actually it's the ICT Board that needs a senior staff member with knowledge on the subject in order to offer leadership. This has been lacking for a long time.
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Al Kags<alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
Much has been said on this forum about government, organisations and companies not giving much work to developers who do are not companies. having spoken to a few people who could give the contracts etc., i understood them to say that the concerns were that their concerns are:-
1. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers level of
quality.
2. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers delivery time - that they will deliver everything they say they will at the appointed time 3. That they require too much supervision 4. That they over promise. 5. The development of a website/application requires several competences - designer, IA, developer, integrator etc. The contention is that you guys don't/won't work together as a team.
Here's a question:
If an organisation/ company was to decide to do a call for entries/ tender of sorts for a significant web project to be delivered by a team of freelance individuals from this forum, can it be done?
The sub-parts of these question are:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
Here's my thinking. A lot of the developers and other related professionals here are passionate and really good at what they do, and they often just need a chance. Not everyone can be employed by the 3mice etc of this world and so its a challenge to give everyone a chance.
Given the concerns expressed by the client group, the onus is on interested people here to prove to them that the model of contracting individual freelance professionals here is a workable one.
I know one organisation that would be interested in trying it out. So before they make a further move, I bring the idea here to you and ask,
what is possible?
-- Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
Al Kags, Anything is possible but here are my opinions. Freelance developers should be bound to some form of technical business organization. Most developers burn out of projects in 6 to 36 months anyway so unless a non technical organization wants to become a software house.... There must be an institutional system or memory to maintain or improve a software project. Contracted technology firms should be required to train and pay software developers in a way that makes it more probable for them to deliver on what is required. Many find it too expensive to train, certify or hire up to date techies. This means that the contracted firm should also not be underpaid. Training and equipping techies is not cheap at all. Some of us have seen how creative techies can inspire others to produce in projects, informal forums, communities, seminars or classroom settings. Any developer or techie worth noting participates in a technical community or organization that can vouch for their passion, competence and reliability (goodwill). Team members should be consulted before adding anyone to their group. What if a new hire 'stole' your star developer's x? Let us hear about the projects your contacts have in mind and then we can compete in gaining their confidence as individual, community or corporate teams. Since software project requirements are rarely static it should be no surprise that what is initially agreed on rarely comes to pass. Features are cut or modified to finish whatever becomes the software within a specified time period and budget. --------- MM On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Al Kags <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
Much has been said on this forum about government, organisations and companies not giving much work to developers who do are not companies. having spoken to a few people who could give the contracts etc., i understood them to say that the concerns were that their concerns are:-
1. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers level of quality. 2. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers delivery time - that they will deliver everything they say they will at the appointed time 3. That they require too much supervision 4. That they over promise. 5. The development of a website/application requires several competences - designer, IA, developer, integrator etc. The contention is that you guys don't/won't work together as a team.
Here's a question:
If an organisation/ company was to decide to do a call for entries/ tender of sorts for a significant web project to be delivered by a team of freelance individuals from this forum, can it be done?
The sub-parts of these question are:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
Here's my thinking. A lot of the developers and other related professionals here are passionate and really good at what they do, and they often just need a chance. Not everyone can be employed by the 3mice etc of this world and so its a challenge to give everyone a chance.
Given the concerns expressed by the client group, the onus is on interested people here to prove to them that the model of contracting individual freelance professionals here is a workable one.
I know one organisation that would be interested in trying it out. So before they make a further move, I bring the idea here to you and ask,
what is possible?
-- Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
This discussion has been quite intensive and throwing this challenge the way Al Kags did will get us into action-oriented thinking mode. I might not have given this as much thought as some have but I what seems to emerge is that leadership is the issue here. The expertise and the capacity is evidently not. In getting down to it, Crystal Watley seems to be getting closer. Cause after all is said and done it's the action bit that counts. I hope Crystal becomes the first example to show this leadership; getting busy on it now? It's the risky part; not every other persons role (personaly I don't feel upto the task at the moment) but it's the most rewarding... Murigi, Your approach is quite insightful and technical. I'm only wondering who the starter would be. Feels like we're coming back to 'the external hand' again On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Murigi Muraya<mmskunkworks@gmail.com> wrote:
Al Kags,
Anything is possible but here are my opinions.
Freelance developers should be bound to some form of technical business organization. Most developers burn out of projects in 6 to 36 months anyway so unless a non technical organization wants to become a software house.... There must be an institutional system or memory to maintain or improve a software project.
Contracted technology firms should be required to train and pay software developers in a way that makes it more probable for them to deliver on what is required. Many find it too expensive to train, certify or hire up to date techies. This means that the contracted firm should also not be underpaid. Training and equipping techies is not cheap at all.
Some of us have seen how creative techies can inspire others to produce in projects, informal forums, communities, seminars or classroom settings. Any developer or techie worth noting participates in a technical community or organization that can vouch for their passion, competence and reliability (goodwill). Team members should be consulted before adding anyone to their group. What if a new hire 'stole' your star developer's x?
Let us hear about the projects your contacts have in mind and then we can compete in gaining their confidence as individual, community or corporate teams. Since software project requirements are rarely static it should be no surprise that what is initially agreed on rarely comes to pass. Features are cut or modified to finish whatever becomes the software within a specified time period and budget.
---------
MM
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Al Kags <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
Much has been said on this forum about government, organisations and companies not giving much work to developers who do are not companies. having spoken to a few people who could give the contracts etc., i understood them to say that the concerns were that their concerns are:-
1. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers level of quality. 2. They cannot be assured of the freelance developers delivery time - that they will deliver everything they say they will at the appointed time 3. That they require too much supervision 4. That they over promise. 5. The development of a website/application requires several competences - designer, IA, developer, integrator etc. The contention is that you guys don't/won't work together as a team.
Here's a question:
If an organisation/ company was to decide to do a call for entries/ tender of sorts for a significant web project to be delivered by a team of freelance individuals from this forum, can it be done?
The sub-parts of these question are:-
a) Can you form a team consisting of Project Manager (to assure everything is done in time, guide the proposal making etc); Designer (who does outstanding designs in CSS); Developer(s) who can work well with Google Aps - integrate Gmaps etc into the site; mobile developer to develop mobile apps, etc; integrator to ensure that the site is seamless?
b) Can your team come together and bid for the project in detail - including what you can put together, timelines, budgets, documentations etc? (Each member of the team would sign a contract and would be paid as an individual for their quoted rate)
c) Can the team that wins the bid implement the project in such a seamless and timely manner, delivering such high quality that the project can stand up as a model that the government, organisations and companies can use to contract you?
d) Being that this is such an untried model, would the other developers in the skunkworks arena support the winning team to ensure that they succeed in delivering the project at the highest possible quality and within the exact time they promised to do so? If yes, what is the structure that skunkworks would use to do this?
Here's my thinking. A lot of the developers and other related professionals here are passionate and really good at what they do, and they often just need a chance. Not everyone can be employed by the 3mice etc of this world and so its a challenge to give everyone a chance.
Given the concerns expressed by the client group, the onus is on interested people here to prove to them that the model of contracting individual freelance professionals here is a workable one.
I know one organisation that would be interested in trying it out. So before they make a further move, I bring the idea here to you and ask,
what is possible?
-- Al Kags ----------------------- Founder, The Desturi Trust http://www.alkags.com _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- Samuel Waithaka http://www.brighterdayweb.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/waithaka http://www.brighterdayweb.com/seo-articles.xml http://www.brighterdayweb.com/news.xml
participants (8)
-
aki -
Al Kags -
Barrack Otieno -
Benjamin -
Gakuru Alex -
Leah Riungu -
Murigi Muraya -
Samuel Waithaka