Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, , certification program for entry level developers
Mike, now that I know you have a bunch of certificates my respect for your technical skills has dropped a couple of notches. Seriously though even if Chipuka can accurately measure coding skills then it would just help weed out the job applicants who can't do loops and arrays. However, the problem isn't that I can't weed those folks out already. I have become quite good at eliminating under qualified candidates early on in the recruiting process. The real problem is that the overall number of applicants in Nairobi who are able to pass my screening tests is relatively small. Creating another certification by itself doesn't bring up the skill level of the average Kenyan software developer it just tells you which ones are not skilled and which ones are. The real focus should be on getting more developers that have the necessary skills. This can be done through better training at the university level and before (university is really too late start), on the job training etc... Some will argue that adding the certification will help the educational programs focus on the right skills but if that is really the goal then wouldn't it be easier to just work directly with the universities and schools to improve their curriculum and teaching? My experience with big tests is that you just push to people to study for the test and they don't end up with a deep understanding of the subject matter. I hope I don't sound overly negative on the skill level of Kenyan software engineers. We have hired a team of really top notch Kenyan developers at Bridge who are doing fantastic work and have taught me a lot. Most of them gained their skills studying at local universities and working at local software companies. I just don't think that there are enough engineers at that level to support even the current local demand let alone enough for IBM to come in and hire hundreds of them for BPO. Josh On 2/14/2012 9:47 AM, skunkworks-request@lists.my.co.ke wrote:
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:17:54 +0300 From: Michael Pedersen<sku@kaal.dk> To:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, certification program for entry level developers Message-ID:<4F39FC92.3070506@kaal.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Josh,
I agree and disagree at the same time;-)
I agree that certificates generally are being abused or does not really say anything in Kenya, in many cases you simply get a certificate for nothing. "Certificate that person X has participated in activity Y" - it tells you nothing other than that person was able to actually show up for whatever was happening. In true spirit of Generation Y (aka. the Trophy generation - everyone gets a trophy). Within my limited time in Kenya I have personally already acquired two "certificates", without having to demonstrate any understanding or skill-level.
I disagree that that Chipuka is the same thing - or at least it is not intended to be (lets see when it goes live), the significant difference here is that it requires you do demonstrate hands-on developer skills - as mentioned earlier it is of-course important to know exactly what those requirements, when evaluating any potential staff.
I have witnessed quite a few Kenyan IT-graduates, who did not understand loops and arrays i.e. the very basics of programming, how that is even possible is almost a mystery to me. My best guess is that either there are too few hands-on assignments in the university, or everything is "group-work" and that each group has 1-2 people who understands how to code, and the rest are just free-riding - anyway I don't know.
.. Michael Pedersen
in my opinion, Universities are not designed to produce good programmers. they are to produce all round thinkers. So a certification program would help to attract people interested in narrow skills that can then be tested away from the noise of other courses irrelevant to the recruiter.....I still see it as a very necessary thing. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
Mike, now that I know you have a bunch of certificates my respect for your technical skills has dropped a couple of notches.
Seriously though even if Chipuka can accurately measure coding skills then it would just help weed out the job applicants who can't do loops and arrays. However, the problem isn't that I can't weed those folks out already. I have become quite good at eliminating under qualified candidates early on in the recruiting process. The real problem is that the overall number of applicants in Nairobi who are able to pass my screening tests is relatively small. Creating another certification by itself doesn't bring up the skill level of the average Kenyan software developer it just tells you which ones are not skilled and which ones are. The real focus should be on getting more developers that have the necessary skills. This can be done through better training at the university level and before (university is really too late start), on the job training etc...
Some will argue that adding the certification will help the educational programs focus on the right skills but if that is really the goal then wouldn't it be easier to just work directly with the universities and schools to improve their curriculum and teaching? My experience with big tests is that you just push to people to study for the test and they don't end up with a deep understanding of the subject matter.
I hope I don't sound overly negative on the skill level of Kenyan software engineers. We have hired a team of really top notch Kenyan developers at Bridge who are doing fantastic work and have taught me a lot. Most of them gained their skills studying at local universities and working at local software companies. I just don't think that there are enough engineers at that level to support even the current local demand let alone enough for IBM to come in and hire hundreds of them for BPO.
Josh
On 2/14/2012 9:47 AM, skunkworks-request@lists.my.**co.ke<skunkworks-request@lists.my.co.ke>wrote:
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:17:54 +0300 From: Michael Pedersen<sku@kaal.dk> To:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, certification program for entry level developers Message-ID:<4F39FC92.3070506@**kaal.dk <4F39FC92.3070506@kaal.dk>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Josh,
I agree and disagree at the same time;-)
I agree that certificates generally are being abused or does not really say anything in Kenya, in many cases you simply get a certificate for nothing. "Certificate that person X has participated in activity Y" - it tells you nothing other than that person was able to actually show up for whatever was happening. In true spirit of Generation Y (aka. the Trophy generation - everyone gets a trophy). Within my limited time in Kenya I have personally already acquired two "certificates", without having to demonstrate any understanding or skill-level.
I disagree that that Chipuka is the same thing - or at least it is not intended to be (lets see when it goes live), the significant difference here is that it requires you do demonstrate hands-on developer skills - as mentioned earlier it is of-course important to know exactly what those requirements, when evaluating any potential staff.
I have witnessed quite a few Kenyan IT-graduates, who did not understand loops and arrays i.e. the very basics of programming, how that is even possible is almost a mystery to me. My best guess is that either there are too few hands-on assignments in the university, or everything is "group-work" and that each group has 1-2 people who understands how to code, and the rest are just free-riding - anyway I don't know.
.. Michael Pedersen
______________________________**_________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/skunkworks<http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks> ------------
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-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
@Joram, For us to move forward we have to analyse what the 'big boys' are doing and do it better or localize it. What you said is not 100% correct because am sure all universities specifically for a computer science course which is more general, when approaching the end of the course, students are usually given an opportunity to specialize ie choose units that have a particular path (unless we are talking about a university outside the world). For those who are considerate of our brothers/ sisters who wont make it to the university, then thats a good challenge to Paul, ie why not take the basics of the curriculum to high schools? FYI, the person who did the architecture and programming of one of the best opensource SMS platform never attended college and currently he consults for one of the top organization in the world. Please lets focus on the objectives of why we need the certification/ curriculum/ course!!! On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:
in my opinion, Universities are not designed to produce good programmers. they are to produce all round thinkers. So a certification program would help to attract people interested in narrow skills that can then be tested away from the noise of other courses irrelevant to the recruiter.....I still see it as a very necessary thing.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
Mike, now that I know you have a bunch of certificates my respect for your technical skills has dropped a couple of notches.
Seriously though even if Chipuka can accurately measure coding skills then it would just help weed out the job applicants who can't do loops and arrays. However, the problem isn't that I can't weed those folks out already. I have become quite good at eliminating under qualified candidates early on in the recruiting process. The real problem is that the overall number of applicants in Nairobi who are able to pass my screening tests is relatively small. Creating another certification by itself doesn't bring up the skill level of the average Kenyan software developer it just tells you which ones are not skilled and which ones are. The real focus should be on getting more developers that have the necessary skills. This can be done through better training at the university level and before (university is really too late start), on the job training etc...
Some will argue that adding the certification will help the educational programs focus on the right skills but if that is really the goal then wouldn't it be easier to just work directly with the universities and schools to improve their curriculum and teaching? My experience with big tests is that you just push to people to study for the test and they don't end up with a deep understanding of the subject matter.
I hope I don't sound overly negative on the skill level of Kenyan software engineers. We have hired a team of really top notch Kenyan developers at Bridge who are doing fantastic work and have taught me a lot. Most of them gained their skills studying at local universities and working at local software companies. I just don't think that there are enough engineers at that level to support even the current local demand let alone enough for IBM to come in and hire hundreds of them for BPO.
Josh
On 2/14/2012 9:47 AM, skunkworks-request@lists.my.**co.ke<skunkworks-request@lists.my.co.ke>wrote:
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:17:54 +0300 From: Michael Pedersen<sku@kaal.dk> To:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, certification program for entry level developers Message-ID:<4F39FC92.3070506@**kaal.dk <4F39FC92.3070506@kaal.dk>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Josh,
I agree and disagree at the same time;-)
I agree that certificates generally are being abused or does not really say anything in Kenya, in many cases you simply get a certificate for nothing. "Certificate that person X has participated in activity Y" - it tells you nothing other than that person was able to actually show up for whatever was happening. In true spirit of Generation Y (aka. the Trophy generation - everyone gets a trophy). Within my limited time in Kenya I have personally already acquired two "certificates", without having to demonstrate any understanding or skill-level.
I disagree that that Chipuka is the same thing - or at least it is not intended to be (lets see when it goes live), the significant difference here is that it requires you do demonstrate hands-on developer skills - as mentioned earlier it is of-course important to know exactly what those requirements, when evaluating any potential staff.
I have witnessed quite a few Kenyan IT-graduates, who did not understand loops and arrays i.e. the very basics of programming, how that is even possible is almost a mystery to me. My best guess is that either there are too few hands-on assignments in the university, or everything is "group-work" and that each group has 1-2 people who understands how to code, and the rest are just free-riding - anyway I don't know.
.. Michael Pedersen
______________________________**_________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/skunkworks<http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks> ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/**viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94<http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94> ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Kind Regards, Wilson B.
Just an addition, I did a Computer Science degree and still stand by what I said above. We learnt general concepts of computing, dabbled with several platforms and ushered into the world. From there we were on our own. Some became great programmers, some of us bailed. But nothing in that curriculum prepared me to be a great anything. It exposed me to all and left the rest to me On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Wilson Bandi <bandson67@gmail.com> wrote:
@Joram,
For us to move forward we have to analyse what the 'big boys' are doing and do it better or localize it. What you said is not 100% correct because am sure all universities specifically for a computer science course which is more general, when approaching the end of the course, students are usually given an opportunity to specialize ie choose units that have a particular path (unless we are talking about a university outside the world).
For those who are considerate of our brothers/ sisters who wont make it to the university, then thats a good challenge to Paul, ie why not take the basics of the curriculum to high schools? FYI, the person who did the architecture and programming of one of the best opensource SMS platform never attended college and currently he consults for one of the top organization in the world.
Please lets focus on the objectives of why we need the certification/ curriculum/ course!!!
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:
in my opinion, Universities are not designed to produce good programmers. they are to produce all round thinkers. So a certification program would help to attract people interested in narrow skills that can then be tested away from the noise of other courses irrelevant to the recruiter.....I still see it as a very necessary thing.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
Mike, now that I know you have a bunch of certificates my respect for your technical skills has dropped a couple of notches.
Seriously though even if Chipuka can accurately measure coding skills then it would just help weed out the job applicants who can't do loops and arrays. However, the problem isn't that I can't weed those folks out already. I have become quite good at eliminating under qualified candidates early on in the recruiting process. The real problem is that the overall number of applicants in Nairobi who are able to pass my screening tests is relatively small. Creating another certification by itself doesn't bring up the skill level of the average Kenyan software developer it just tells you which ones are not skilled and which ones are. The real focus should be on getting more developers that have the necessary skills. This can be done through better training at the university level and before (university is really too late start), on the job training etc...
Some will argue that adding the certification will help the educational programs focus on the right skills but if that is really the goal then wouldn't it be easier to just work directly with the universities and schools to improve their curriculum and teaching? My experience with big tests is that you just push to people to study for the test and they don't end up with a deep understanding of the subject matter.
I hope I don't sound overly negative on the skill level of Kenyan software engineers. We have hired a team of really top notch Kenyan developers at Bridge who are doing fantastic work and have taught me a lot. Most of them gained their skills studying at local universities and working at local software companies. I just don't think that there are enough engineers at that level to support even the current local demand let alone enough for IBM to come in and hire hundreds of them for BPO.
Josh
On 2/14/2012 9:47 AM, skunkworks-request@lists.my.**co.ke<skunkworks-request@lists.my.co.ke>wrote:
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:17:54 +0300 From: Michael Pedersen<sku@kaal.dk> To:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, certification program for entry level developers Message-ID:<4F39FC92.3070506@**kaal.dk <4F39FC92.3070506@kaal.dk>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Josh,
I agree and disagree at the same time;-)
I agree that certificates generally are being abused or does not really say anything in Kenya, in many cases you simply get a certificate for nothing. "Certificate that person X has participated in activity Y" - it tells you nothing other than that person was able to actually show up for whatever was happening. In true spirit of Generation Y (aka. the Trophy generation - everyone gets a trophy). Within my limited time in Kenya I have personally already acquired two "certificates", without having to demonstrate any understanding or skill-level.
I disagree that that Chipuka is the same thing - or at least it is not intended to be (lets see when it goes live), the significant difference here is that it requires you do demonstrate hands-on developer skills - as mentioned earlier it is of-course important to know exactly what those requirements, when evaluating any potential staff.
I have witnessed quite a few Kenyan IT-graduates, who did not understand loops and arrays i.e. the very basics of programming, how that is even possible is almost a mystery to me. My best guess is that either there are too few hands-on assignments in the university, or everything is "group-work" and that each group has 1-2 people who understands how to code, and the rest are just free-riding - anyway I don't know.
.. Michael Pedersen
______________________________**_________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/skunkworks<http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks> ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/**viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94<http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94> ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Kind Regards,
Wilson B.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
Good addition but have you ever asked yourself if the the 'great programmers' from your class got an additonal certification to become 'great', or because of interest/ passion learnt on their own using the taught concepts in class or maybe you missed some classes/ units? Am sure you didnt do all the units from your department and must have gotten an option to choose some and leave others when you started your 3rd year through to 4th year and from the look of things your project was a ............... management system/ software. Lets get back to reality. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:
Just an addition, I did a Computer Science degree and still stand by what I said above. We learnt general concepts of computing, dabbled with several platforms and ushered into the world. From there we were on our own. Some became great programmers, some of us bailed. But nothing in that curriculum prepared me to be a great anything. It exposed me to all and left the rest to me
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Wilson Bandi <bandson67@gmail.com> wrote:
@Joram,
For us to move forward we have to analyse what the 'big boys' are doing and do it better or localize it. What you said is not 100% correct because am sure all universities specifically for a computer science course which is more general, when approaching the end of the course, students are usually given an opportunity to specialize ie choose units that have a particular path (unless we are talking about a university outside the world).
For those who are considerate of our brothers/ sisters who wont make it to the university, then thats a good challenge to Paul, ie why not take the basics of the curriculum to high schools? FYI, the person who did the architecture and programming of one of the best opensource SMS platform never attended college and currently he consults for one of the top organization in the world.
Please lets focus on the objectives of why we need the certification/ curriculum/ course!!!
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:
in my opinion, Universities are not designed to produce good programmers. they are to produce all round thinkers. So a certification program would help to attract people interested in narrow skills that can then be tested away from the noise of other courses irrelevant to the recruiter.....I still see it as a very necessary thing.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
Mike, now that I know you have a bunch of certificates my respect for your technical skills has dropped a couple of notches.
Seriously though even if Chipuka can accurately measure coding skills then it would just help weed out the job applicants who can't do loops and arrays. However, the problem isn't that I can't weed those folks out already. I have become quite good at eliminating under qualified candidates early on in the recruiting process. The real problem is that the overall number of applicants in Nairobi who are able to pass my screening tests is relatively small. Creating another certification by itself doesn't bring up the skill level of the average Kenyan software developer it just tells you which ones are not skilled and which ones are. The real focus should be on getting more developers that have the necessary skills. This can be done through better training at the university level and before (university is really too late start), on the job training etc...
Some will argue that adding the certification will help the educational programs focus on the right skills but if that is really the goal then wouldn't it be easier to just work directly with the universities and schools to improve their curriculum and teaching? My experience with big tests is that you just push to people to study for the test and they don't end up with a deep understanding of the subject matter.
I hope I don't sound overly negative on the skill level of Kenyan software engineers. We have hired a team of really top notch Kenyan developers at Bridge who are doing fantastic work and have taught me a lot. Most of them gained their skills studying at local universities and working at local software companies. I just don't think that there are enough engineers at that level to support even the current local demand let alone enough for IBM to come in and hire hundreds of them for BPO.
Josh
On 2/14/2012 9:47 AM, skunkworks-request@lists.my.**co.ke<skunkworks-request@lists.my.co.ke>wrote:
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:17:54 +0300 From: Michael Pedersen<sku@kaal.dk> To:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, certification program for entry level developers Message-ID:<4F39FC92.3070506@**kaal.dk <4F39FC92.3070506@kaal.dk>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Josh,
I agree and disagree at the same time;-)
I agree that certificates generally are being abused or does not really say anything in Kenya, in many cases you simply get a certificate for nothing. "Certificate that person X has participated in activity Y" - it tells you nothing other than that person was able to actually show up for whatever was happening. In true spirit of Generation Y (aka. the Trophy generation - everyone gets a trophy). Within my limited time in Kenya I have personally already acquired two "certificates", without having to demonstrate any understanding or skill-level.
I disagree that that Chipuka is the same thing - or at least it is not intended to be (lets see when it goes live), the significant difference here is that it requires you do demonstrate hands-on developer skills - as mentioned earlier it is of-course important to know exactly what those requirements, when evaluating any potential staff.
I have witnessed quite a few Kenyan IT-graduates, who did not understand loops and arrays i.e. the very basics of programming, how that is even possible is almost a mystery to me. My best guess is that either there are too few hands-on assignments in the university, or everything is "group-work" and that each group has 1-2 people who understands how to code, and the rest are just free-riding - anyway I don't know.
.. Michael Pedersen
______________________________**_________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/skunkworks<http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks> ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/**viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94<http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94> ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Kind Regards,
Wilson B.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Kind Regards, Wilson B.
Which is why I think it would be wrong to lock people out simply coz they need a degree to become great programmers. Why cant someone straight from highschool with no ability to go to campus just get the certification that legitimises him without having to be subjected to discrimination because he has nothing to show? And as the industry grows, and people are required in the hundreds, then the certification can be a cut off point. and if that guy straight out of high school doesnt have a paper he will be locked out In a market where demand outstrips supply papers dont matter but when the tables turn, employers turn to papers. Someone mentioned that great engineers in the US are not hired through papers, i dont believe this. Plus the market is flooded with graduates. Give the certification a chance and see where it heads to On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Wilson Bandi <bandson67@gmail.com> wrote:
Good addition but have you ever asked yourself if the the 'great programmers' from your class got an additonal certification to become 'great', or because of interest/ passion learnt on their own using the taught concepts in class or maybe you missed some classes/ units? Am sure you didnt do all the units from your department and must have gotten an option to choose some and leave others when you started your 3rd year through to 4th year and from the look of things your project was a ............... management system/ software.
Lets get back to reality.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:
Just an addition, I did a Computer Science degree and still stand by what I said above. We learnt general concepts of computing, dabbled with several platforms and ushered into the world. From there we were on our own. Some became great programmers, some of us bailed. But nothing in that curriculum prepared me to be a great anything. It exposed me to all and left the rest to me
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Wilson Bandi <bandson67@gmail.com>wrote:
@Joram,
For us to move forward we have to analyse what the 'big boys' are doing and do it better or localize it. What you said is not 100% correct because am sure all universities specifically for a computer science course which is more general, when approaching the end of the course, students are usually given an opportunity to specialize ie choose units that have a particular path (unless we are talking about a university outside the world).
For those who are considerate of our brothers/ sisters who wont make it to the university, then thats a good challenge to Paul, ie why not take the basics of the curriculum to high schools? FYI, the person who did the architecture and programming of one of the best opensource SMS platform never attended college and currently he consults for one of the top organization in the world.
Please lets focus on the objectives of why we need the certification/ curriculum/ course!!!
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:
in my opinion, Universities are not designed to produce good programmers. they are to produce all round thinkers. So a certification program would help to attract people interested in narrow skills that can then be tested away from the noise of other courses irrelevant to the recruiter.....I still see it as a very necessary thing.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
Mike, now that I know you have a bunch of certificates my respect for your technical skills has dropped a couple of notches.
Seriously though even if Chipuka can accurately measure coding skills then it would just help weed out the job applicants who can't do loops and arrays. However, the problem isn't that I can't weed those folks out already. I have become quite good at eliminating under qualified candidates early on in the recruiting process. The real problem is that the overall number of applicants in Nairobi who are able to pass my screening tests is relatively small. Creating another certification by itself doesn't bring up the skill level of the average Kenyan software developer it just tells you which ones are not skilled and which ones are. The real focus should be on getting more developers that have the necessary skills. This can be done through better training at the university level and before (university is really too late start), on the job training etc...
Some will argue that adding the certification will help the educational programs focus on the right skills but if that is really the goal then wouldn't it be easier to just work directly with the universities and schools to improve their curriculum and teaching? My experience with big tests is that you just push to people to study for the test and they don't end up with a deep understanding of the subject matter.
I hope I don't sound overly negative on the skill level of Kenyan software engineers. We have hired a team of really top notch Kenyan developers at Bridge who are doing fantastic work and have taught me a lot. Most of them gained their skills studying at local universities and working at local software companies. I just don't think that there are enough engineers at that level to support even the current local demand let alone enough for IBM to come in and hire hundreds of them for BPO.
Josh
On 2/14/2012 9:47 AM, skunkworks-request@lists.my.**co.ke<skunkworks-request@lists.my.co.ke>wrote:
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:17:54 +0300 From: Michael Pedersen<sku@kaal.dk> To:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, certification program for entry level developers Message-ID:<4F39FC92.3070506@**kaal.dk <4F39FC92.3070506@kaal.dk>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Josh,
I agree and disagree at the same time;-)
I agree that certificates generally are being abused or does not really say anything in Kenya, in many cases you simply get a certificate for nothing. "Certificate that person X has participated in activity Y" - it tells you nothing other than that person was able to actually show up for whatever was happening. In true spirit of Generation Y (aka. the Trophy generation - everyone gets a trophy). Within my limited time in Kenya I have personally already acquired two "certificates", without having to demonstrate any understanding or skill-level.
I disagree that that Chipuka is the same thing - or at least it is not intended to be (lets see when it goes live), the significant difference here is that it requires you do demonstrate hands-on developer skills - as mentioned earlier it is of-course important to know exactly what those requirements, when evaluating any potential staff.
I have witnessed quite a few Kenyan IT-graduates, who did not understand loops and arrays i.e. the very basics of programming, how that is even possible is almost a mystery to me. My best guess is that either there are too few hands-on assignments in the university, or everything is "group-work" and that each group has 1-2 people who understands how to code, and the rest are just free-riding - anyway I don't know.
.. Michael Pedersen
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-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
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-- Kind Regards,
Wilson B.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Kind Regards,
Wilson B.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
Me thinks Give the certification a chance. In essence it is evident from the discussion that graduate or not if you do not have an understanding of programming then it is pointless to even discuss about the degree. on the other hand passion for coding is good problem is there's no way to quantify nor determine if it exists in the human being in focus. Truth is the numbers graduating from campus is much more than the available jobs and as such we cannot say we have a shortage of graduates. A couple of pointers - most graduates "major" in anything else apart from programming (web or otherwise) - most graduates have their projects done by programmers in the field - IT graduates do not actually specialize as everything is taught to every one, points of specialization have a hazy grouping ie desktop applications on one hand and branded programming, web programming is in another cluster all together, i thought programming is programming irrespective of desktop or web. - currently languages in "heavy" use are .net, php, java, javascript, c++, but you will find other "funny" languages in the same mix. this is to mean that by the time of graduation a student has been introduced to a whole myriad of languages he/she has no clue of their innards if not their strong points. recommendation The certification becomes a purely hands on type of exam even if it takes 3-4months to complete the exams, that way there can be a way to say that the holder of this paper can do a,b,c etc hence in an interview there's wasting time. me thoughts
By the way on another note, if this certification is purely for software development, how different is it from the ones offered by sun microsystems. A programming concept is a programming concept whether learnt in java or python etc..... Infact the concepts introduced by sun ms usually put a professional at a more advanced level to easily understand other languages because only the syntax will change and java has proven to be a language that can program most applications on a variety of platforms. Or in another perspective does it mean that a good java programmer cannot program a php application when he is given about 2 weeks to study the libraries and syntax? if your answer is no then you need to come back to reality. WB. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Nd'wex Common <flexycat@gmail.com> wrote:
Me thinks Give the certification a chance.
In essence it is evident from the discussion that graduate or not if you do not have an understanding of programming then it is pointless to even discuss about the degree. on the other hand passion for coding is good problem is there's no way to quantify nor determine if it exists in the human being in focus. Truth is the numbers graduating from campus is much more than the available jobs and as such we cannot say we have a shortage of graduates.
A couple of pointers
- most graduates "major" in anything else apart from programming (web or otherwise) - most graduates have their projects done by programmers in the field - IT graduates do not actually specialize as everything is taught to every one, points of specialization have a hazy grouping ie desktop applications on one hand and branded programming, web programming is in another cluster all together, i thought programming is programming irrespective of desktop or web. - currently languages in "heavy" use are .net, php, java, javascript, c++, but you will find other "funny" languages in the same mix. this is to mean that by the time of graduation a student has been introduced to a whole myriad of languages he/she has no clue of their innards if not their strong points.
recommendation The certification becomes a purely hands on type of exam even if it takes 3-4months to complete the exams, that way there can be a way to say that the holder of this paper can do a,b,c etc hence in an interview there's wasting time.
me thoughts
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-- Kind Regards, Wilson B.
@Joram, allow me to disagree with you on a number of points. *1. "Someone mentioned that great engineers in the US are not hired through papers, i don't believe this..."* I have been working for clients in US for a while now and not once did one ask for my degree papers or any other certs, they just wanted to see what i have done before. Secondly, I keep a very close eye on careers.stackoverflow.com, and in all the posts I have checked out, most do not ask for a degree or some other certification. They ask for core programming skills. * 2. "Plus the market is flooded with graduates..."* I am not sure I understand what you mean by this. Is the Kenyan market flooded by graduates? Yes. Are graduates the same as programmers? Hell No! Just because someone has gone through a BBIT or CIS degree programme does not make one a programmer. Writing programs makes one a programmer! The more you code, the more likely you are to become better. Is the US market flooded by graduates? I don't know. What I do know is that Computer Science graduates from Universities and colleges in US are selling like hot cakes, according to this CNN story<http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/12/opinion/rushkoff-write-code/index.html>. And this<http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2012/01/05/n_computer_science_jobs.cnnmoney/>one and this<http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/07/technology/tech_engineers_wanted/index.htm> . *3. "In a market where demand outstrips supply papers dont matter but when the tables turn, employers turn to papers..."* Do you mean that when the number of job seekers exceeds the available positions, then employers turn to papers? Well, since we are talking about programmers here, have you heard of the Joel Test<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html>? Specifically rule number 11. The employers who use papers to grade programmers are misguided. I would bet that the big software houses in .ke, Cellulant, Craft Silicon et al place a premium on programmers who have the core skills over those who have fancy papers. 4. "*I did a Computer Science degree and still stand by what I said above. We learnt general concepts of computing, dabbled with several platforms and ushered into the world. From there we were on our own. Some became great programmers, some of us bailed. But nothing in that curriculum prepared me to be a great anything. It exposed me to all and left the rest to me...*" And this is where I think our Universities have it wrong. A couple of years back, *students *from MIT would come to Strathmore University to teach Java programming. The recent AI and ML classes which several skunks took part in reveal just how deep those guys go when teaching. Still don't believe me? Check out this iOS programming course from Stanford<http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs193p/cgi-bin/drupal/>. You simply cant get this level of detail in our local colleges and Universities due to their misguided belief that lecturers teach you 20% and 80% you learn on your own. This learning of general concepts and dabbling in several platforms is what is messing up our graduates. They know a little of everything, and thus are not good in any. *5. "in my opinion, Universities are not designed to produce good programmers. they are to produce all round thinkers...*" I think this a very wrong approach. It is the reason no University in Kenya has sent its students to India or Russia to teach Java programming to students there. Its the same reason we don't see any "*holy sh*t! that is awesome* <http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/technology/rtn08_exoskeleton/>" innovations in .ke. Universities make us all round in VB 5, 6, C, C++, Java, PHP, HTML such that we don't master any of them to become of any use to Josh, IBM or Skynet. *Solution *1. Pick one platform/language, teach it to students from first year to 5th year. Go into as much detail as possible. 2. Hand pick any high school student interested in computers, ship them off to a 3 month summer camp @ mLab and teach them programming. 3. Give laptops to anyone with half a mind interest in computers. 4. Sit back and watch as interesting things happen. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:
Which is why I think it would be wrong to lock people out simply coz they need a degree to become great programmers.
Why cant someone straight from highschool with no ability to go to campus just get the certification that legitimises him without having to be subjected to discrimination because he has nothing to show? And as the industry grows, and people are required in the hundreds, then the certification can be a cut off point. and if that guy straight out of high school doesnt have a paper he will be locked out
In a market where demand outstrips supply papers dont matter but when the tables turn, employers turn to papers. Someone mentioned that great engineers in the US are not hired through papers, i dont believe this. Plus the market is flooded with graduates.
Give the certification a chance and see where it heads to
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Wilson Bandi <bandson67@gmail.com> wrote:
Good addition but have you ever asked yourself if the the 'great programmers' from your class got an additonal certification to become 'great', or because of interest/ passion learnt on their own using the taught concepts in class or maybe you missed some classes/ units? Am sure you didnt do all the units from your department and must have gotten an option to choose some and leave others when you started your 3rd year through to 4th year and from the look of things your project was a ............... management system/ software.
Lets get back to reality.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:
Just an addition, I did a Computer Science degree and still stand by what I said above. We learnt general concepts of computing, dabbled with several platforms and ushered into the world. From there we were on our own. Some became great programmers, some of us bailed. But nothing in that curriculum prepared me to be a great anything. It exposed me to all and left the rest to me
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Wilson Bandi <bandson67@gmail.com>wrote:
@Joram,
For us to move forward we have to analyse what the 'big boys' are doing and do it better or localize it. What you said is not 100% correct because am sure all universities specifically for a computer science course which is more general, when approaching the end of the course, students are usually given an opportunity to specialize ie choose units that have a particular path (unless we are talking about a university outside the world).
For those who are considerate of our brothers/ sisters who wont make it to the university, then thats a good challenge to Paul, ie why not take the basics of the curriculum to high schools? FYI, the person who did the architecture and programming of one of the best opensource SMS platform never attended college and currently he consults for one of the top organization in the world.
Please lets focus on the objectives of why we need the certification/ curriculum/ course!!!
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com
wrote:
in my opinion, Universities are not designed to produce good programmers. they are to produce all round thinkers. So a certification program would help to attract people interested in narrow skills that can then be tested away from the noise of other courses irrelevant to the recruiter.....I still see it as a very necessary thing.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
Mike, now that I know you have a bunch of certificates my respect for your technical skills has dropped a couple of notches.
Seriously though even if Chipuka can accurately measure coding skills then it would just help weed out the job applicants who can't do loops and arrays. However, the problem isn't that I can't weed those folks out already. I have become quite good at eliminating under qualified candidates early on in the recruiting process. The real problem is that the overall number of applicants in Nairobi who are able to pass my screening tests is relatively small. Creating another certification by itself doesn't bring up the skill level of the average Kenyan software developer it just tells you which ones are not skilled and which ones are. The real focus should be on getting more developers that have the necessary skills. This can be done through better training at the university level and before (university is really too late start), on the job training etc...
Some will argue that adding the certification will help the educational programs focus on the right skills but if that is really the goal then wouldn't it be easier to just work directly with the universities and schools to improve their curriculum and teaching? My experience with big tests is that you just push to people to study for the test and they don't end up with a deep understanding of the subject matter.
I hope I don't sound overly negative on the skill level of Kenyan software engineers. We have hired a team of really top notch Kenyan developers at Bridge who are doing fantastic work and have taught me a lot. Most of them gained their skills studying at local universities and working at local software companies. I just don't think that there are enough engineers at that level to support even the current local demand let alone enough for IBM to come in and hire hundreds of them for BPO.
Josh
On 2/14/2012 9:47 AM, skunkworks-request@lists.my.**co.ke<skunkworks-request@lists.my.co.ke>wrote:
> Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:17:54 +0300 > From: Michael Pedersen<sku@kaal.dk> > To:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, > certification program for entry level developers > Message-ID:<4F39FC92.3070506@**kaal.dk <4F39FC92.3070506@kaal.dk>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi Josh, > > I agree and disagree at the same time;-) > > I agree that certificates generally are being abused or does not > really > say anything in Kenya, in many cases you simply get a certificate for > nothing. "Certificate that person X has participated in activity Y" > - it > tells you nothing other than that person was able to actually show up > for whatever was happening. In true spirit of Generation Y (aka. the > Trophy generation - everyone gets a trophy). Within my limited time > in > Kenya I have personally already acquired two "certificates", without > having to demonstrate any understanding or skill-level. > > I disagree that that Chipuka is the same thing - or at least it is > not > intended to be (lets see when it goes live), the significant > difference > here is that it requires you do demonstrate hands-on developer > skills - > as mentioned earlier it is of-course important to know exactly what > those requirements, when evaluating any potential staff. > > > I have witnessed quite a few Kenyan IT-graduates, who did not > understand > loops and arrays i.e. the very basics of programming, how that is > even > possible is almost a mystery to me. > My best guess is that either there are too few hands-on assignments > in > the university, or everything is "group-work" and that each group has > 1-2 people who understands how to code, and the rest are just > free-riding - anyway I don't know. > > .. > Michael Pedersen >
______________________________**_________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/skunkworks<http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks> ------------
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-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Kind Regards,
Wilson B.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Kind Regards,
Wilson B.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards, Peter Karunyu -------------------
Peter Karunyu.... awesome points below! I really hope the project team for this is reading all concerns in detail from a neutral perspective not with a mindset of maintaining their jobs or having a project to run. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com> wrote:
@Joram, allow me to disagree with you on a number of points.
*1. "Someone mentioned that great engineers in the US are not hired through papers, i don't believe this..."* I have been working for clients in US for a while now and not once did one ask for my degree papers or any other certs, they just wanted to see what i have done before.
Secondly, I keep a very close eye on careers.stackoverflow.com, and in all the posts I have checked out, most do not ask for a degree or some other certification. They ask for core programming skills. * 2. "Plus the market is flooded with graduates..."* I am not sure I understand what you mean by this. Is the Kenyan market flooded by graduates? Yes. Are graduates the same as programmers? Hell No! Just because someone has gone through a BBIT or CIS degree programme does not make one a programmer. Writing programs makes one a programmer! The more you code, the more likely you are to become better.
Is the US market flooded by graduates? I don't know. What I do know is that Computer Science graduates from Universities and colleges in US are selling like hot cakes, according to this CNN story<http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/12/opinion/rushkoff-write-code/index.html>. And this<http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2012/01/05/n_computer_science_jobs.cnnmoney/>one and this<http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/07/technology/tech_engineers_wanted/index.htm> .
*3. "In a market where demand outstrips supply papers dont matter but when the tables turn, employers turn to papers..."* Do you mean that when the number of job seekers exceeds the available positions, then employers turn to papers? Well, since we are talking about programmers here, have you heard of the Joel Test<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html>? Specifically rule number 11. The employers who use papers to grade programmers are misguided. I would bet that the big software houses in .ke, Cellulant, Craft Silicon et al place a premium on programmers who have the core skills over those who have fancy papers.
4. "*I did a Computer Science degree and still stand by what I said above. We learnt general concepts of computing, dabbled with several platforms and ushered into the world. From there we were on our own. Some became great programmers, some of us bailed. But nothing in that curriculum prepared me to be a great anything. It exposed me to all and left the rest to me...*" And this is where I think our Universities have it wrong. A couple of years back, *students *from MIT would come to Strathmore University to teach Java programming. The recent AI and ML classes which several skunks took part in reveal just how deep those guys go when teaching. Still don't believe me? Check out this iOS programming course from Stanford<http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs193p/cgi-bin/drupal/>. You simply cant get this level of detail in our local colleges and Universities due to their misguided belief that lecturers teach you 20% and 80% you learn on your own.
This learning of general concepts and dabbling in several platforms is what is messing up our graduates. They know a little of everything, and thus are not good in any.
*5. "in my opinion, Universities are not designed to produce good programmers. they are to produce all round thinkers...*" I think this a very wrong approach. It is the reason no University in Kenya has sent its students to India or Russia to teach Java programming to students there. Its the same reason we don't see any "*holy sh*t! that is awesome* <http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/technology/rtn08_exoskeleton/>" innovations in .ke. Universities make us all round in VB 5, 6, C, C++, Java, PHP, HTML such that we don't master any of them to become of any use to Josh, IBM or Skynet.
*Solution *1. Pick one platform/language, teach it to students from first year to 5th year. Go into as much detail as possible. 2. Hand pick any high school student interested in computers, ship them off to a 3 month summer camp @ mLab and teach them programming. 3. Give laptops to anyone with half a mind interest in computers. 4. Sit back and watch as interesting things happen.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:
Which is why I think it would be wrong to lock people out simply coz they need a degree to become great programmers.
Why cant someone straight from highschool with no ability to go to campus just get the certification that legitimises him without having to be subjected to discrimination because he has nothing to show? And as the industry grows, and people are required in the hundreds, then the certification can be a cut off point. and if that guy straight out of high school doesnt have a paper he will be locked out
In a market where demand outstrips supply papers dont matter but when the tables turn, employers turn to papers. Someone mentioned that great engineers in the US are not hired through papers, i dont believe this. Plus the market is flooded with graduates.
Give the certification a chance and see where it heads to
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Wilson Bandi <bandson67@gmail.com>wrote:
Good addition but have you ever asked yourself if the the 'great programmers' from your class got an additonal certification to become 'great', or because of interest/ passion learnt on their own using the taught concepts in class or maybe you missed some classes/ units? Am sure you didnt do all the units from your department and must have gotten an option to choose some and leave others when you started your 3rd year through to 4th year and from the look of things your project was a ............... management system/ software.
Lets get back to reality.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>wrote:
Just an addition, I did a Computer Science degree and still stand by what I said above. We learnt general concepts of computing, dabbled with several platforms and ushered into the world. From there we were on our own. Some became great programmers, some of us bailed. But nothing in that curriculum prepared me to be a great anything. It exposed me to all and left the rest to me
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Wilson Bandi <bandson67@gmail.com>wrote:
@Joram,
For us to move forward we have to analyse what the 'big boys' are doing and do it better or localize it. What you said is not 100% correct because am sure all universities specifically for a computer science course which is more general, when approaching the end of the course, students are usually given an opportunity to specialize ie choose units that have a particular path (unless we are talking about a university outside the world).
For those who are considerate of our brothers/ sisters who wont make it to the university, then thats a good challenge to Paul, ie why not take the basics of the curriculum to high schools? FYI, the person who did the architecture and programming of one of the best opensource SMS platform never attended college and currently he consults for one of the top organization in the world.
Please lets focus on the objectives of why we need the certification/ curriculum/ course!!!
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Joram Mwinamo < joram.mwinamo@gmail.com> wrote:
in my opinion, Universities are not designed to produce good programmers. they are to produce all round thinkers. So a certification program would help to attract people interested in narrow skills that can then be tested away from the noise of other courses irrelevant to the recruiter.....I still see it as a very necessary thing.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
> Mike, now that I know you have a bunch of certificates my respect > for your technical skills has dropped a couple of notches. > > Seriously though even if Chipuka can accurately measure coding > skills then it would just help weed out the job applicants who can't do > loops and arrays. However, the problem isn't that I can't weed those folks > out already. I have become quite good at eliminating under qualified > candidates early on in the recruiting process. The real problem is that the > overall number of applicants in Nairobi who are able to pass my screening > tests is relatively small. Creating another certification by itself > doesn't bring up the skill level of the average Kenyan software developer > it just tells you which ones are not skilled and which ones are. The real > focus should be on getting more developers that have the necessary skills. > This can be done through better training at the university level and > before (university is really too late start), on the job training etc... > > Some will argue that adding the certification will help the > educational programs focus on the right skills but if that is really the > goal then wouldn't it be easier to just work directly with the universities > and schools to improve their curriculum and teaching? My experience with > big tests is that you just push to people to study for the test and they > don't end up with a deep understanding of the subject matter. > > I hope I don't sound overly negative on the skill level of Kenyan > software engineers. We have hired a team of really top notch Kenyan > developers at Bridge who are doing fantastic work and have taught me a lot. > Most of them gained their skills studying at local universities and > working at local software companies. I just don't think that there are > enough engineers at that level to support even the current local demand let > alone enough for IBM to come in and hire hundreds of them for BPO. > > Josh > > On 2/14/2012 9:47 AM, skunkworks-request@lists.my.**co.ke<skunkworks-request@lists.my.co.ke>wrote: > >> Message: 3 >> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:17:54 +0300 >> From: Michael Pedersen<sku@kaal.dk> >> To:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, >> certification program for entry level developers >> Message-ID:<4F39FC92.3070506@**kaal.dk <4F39FC92.3070506@kaal.dk>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Hi Josh, >> >> I agree and disagree at the same time;-) >> >> I agree that certificates generally are being abused or does not >> really >> say anything in Kenya, in many cases you simply get a certificate >> for >> nothing. "Certificate that person X has participated in activity Y" >> - it >> tells you nothing other than that person was able to actually show >> up >> for whatever was happening. In true spirit of Generation Y (aka. the >> Trophy generation - everyone gets a trophy). Within my limited time >> in >> Kenya I have personally already acquired two "certificates", without >> having to demonstrate any understanding or skill-level. >> >> I disagree that that Chipuka is the same thing - or at least it is >> not >> intended to be (lets see when it goes live), the significant >> difference >> here is that it requires you do demonstrate hands-on developer >> skills - >> as mentioned earlier it is of-course important to know exactly what >> those requirements, when evaluating any potential staff. >> >> >> I have witnessed quite a few Kenyan IT-graduates, who did not >> understand >> loops and arrays i.e. the very basics of programming, how that is >> even >> possible is almost a mystery to me. >> My best guess is that either there are too few hands-on assignments >> in >> the university, or everything is "group-work" and that each group >> has >> 1-2 people who understands how to code, and the rest are just >> free-riding - anyway I don't know. >> >> .. >> Michael Pedersen >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/skunkworks<http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks> > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/**viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94<http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94> > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
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-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
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Josh, Haha nice one, yes I think I have accumulated quite a few certificates over the years, however I would never put them on my C.V. I would rather show my previous work - anyway that works for me since I have a fairly large portfolio of previous-projects. I agree that the Chipuka would not add anything you could not do on your own (screening), but I still believe this holds quite a bit of value - saving me from doing that first level screening could be quite a time-saver. Naturally this all depends on how well received it is going to be, if it turns out that none of the "good" developers get certified then you would still have to do a manual screening and little would be gained. Another point to remember is that you may not always be looking for the "best" developers who can come up with marvelous solutions for everything, for some positions, a junior developer with a solid understanding of basics is more than enough - and I believe that Chipuka _could_ be used for identifying this. Personally I am a fairly technical person, and I am able to do much of the "heavy thinking", i.e. coming up with the structures, frameworks, data-structures etc.. What I need is quite often someone who can follow my lead and "fill out the blanks". Finally you have a valid point, that it would probably be more productive to raise the general level. That is look at the root cause, that there are simply too few "great" developers in Kenya for a major IT-industry. And some sort of "elite" university program might be more helpfull than a(nother) certificate. .. Mike On 2/14/12 11:17 AM, Josh Handley wrote:
Mike, now that I know you have a bunch of certificates my respect for your technical skills has dropped a couple of notches.
Seriously though even if Chipuka can accurately measure coding skills then it would just help weed out the job applicants who can't do loops and arrays. However, the problem isn't that I can't weed those folks out already. I have become quite good at eliminating under qualified candidates early on in the recruiting process. The real problem is that the overall number of applicants in Nairobi who are able to pass my screening tests is relatively small. Creating another certification by itself doesn't bring up the skill level of the average Kenyan software developer it just tells you which ones are not skilled and which ones are. The real focus should be on getting more developers that have the necessary skills. This can be done through better training at the university level and before (university is really too late start), on the job training etc...
Some will argue that adding the certification will help the educational programs focus on the right skills but if that is really the goal then wouldn't it be easier to just work directly with the universities and schools to improve their curriculum and teaching? My experience with big tests is that you just push to people to study for the test and they don't end up with a deep understanding of the subject matter.
I hope I don't sound overly negative on the skill level of Kenyan software engineers. We have hired a team of really top notch Kenyan developers at Bridge who are doing fantastic work and have taught me a lot. Most of them gained their skills studying at local universities and working at local software companies. I just don't think that there are enough engineers at that level to support even the current local demand let alone enough for IBM to come in and hire hundreds of them for BPO.
Josh
participants (6)
-
Joram Mwinamo -
Josh Handley -
Michael Pedersen -
Nd'wex Common -
Peter Karunyu -
Wilson Bandi