Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, certification program for entry level developers
After having spent a pretty significant part of the last year and half recruiting software engineers here in Nairobi it seems to me that on average Kenyan developers already have five or ten time times the number of certifications that developers in the US do. At the same time, based on my technical evaluations of the candidates I've seen, software engineering talent seems to be inversely related to the number of certifications. It has gotten to the point where I count certifications against the candidate when I look at their CV. In my opinion, top developers have a real passion for coding; enough that they spend a lot of their spare time coding or thinking about coding. These are folks that would code even if they weren't paid for it - they do it because they enjoy coding and solving challenging technical problems. A passionate coder would rather spend his/her free time doing extra coding for their employer, working on their own cool side project or contributing to an open source project than taking an exam. I'm not sure if the interest in certifications here is because local employers put a high value on them but my experience in the US is that most top tech employers don't. On the contrary I've seen job ads from Google that explicitly ask for engineers who have contributed to open source projects but I've never seen one ask for certification. For entry level software engineers, it is all about the university program attended. If you graduated from MIT, Stanford or Carnegie Mellon with decent marks you can walk into just about any entry level position at any tech company. The people who get certifications in the US are those that don't have a degree at all. I would be surprised to hear that any Carnegie Mellon CS grads are out getting certifications. Rather than having Carnegie Mellon focusing on this certification program why not have them open up a campus in Nairobi like they are doing in Kigali? As a hiring manager, someone with a degree from Carnegie Mellon Nairobi would jump right to the top of the list over the folks with 20 different certifications. Josh
I tend to agree with your observations. But in Kenya, most employers put a lot of premium in certifications. I guess it is something to do with the caliber of our IT education at the University level; it is not one to be compared with universities like MIT or Stanford. So employers, in addition to basic degrees, want all manner of certifications to prove to them you can do the job. In countries like US, I think a bachelors degree for the top universities would be enough. And as you said, the best coders are not good coders because of university education, but because it is a passion for them. I don't think you can learn valuable coding skills in class. The class can teach you the basics, the rest in just your interest and passion. Many coders I know are self taught, from early ages. Any much said, I believe the stakeholders needs to look an IT education in our universities. The curriculum is dated, and the kind of graduates the churn can't cut it in the corporate market. University education seems to have been too commercialized in Kenya, with Universities taking over the whole of city center with their 'campuses.'
@Josh, Thank you very much for the further clarification now coming from a recruiter's perspective. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Philip Musyoki <pmusyoki@gmail.com> wrote:
I tend to agree with your observations. But in Kenya, most employers put a lot of premium in certifications. I guess it is something to do with the caliber of our IT education at the University level; it is not one to be compared with universities like MIT or Stanford. So employers, in addition to basic degrees, want all manner of certifications to prove to them you can do the job.
In countries like US, I think a bachelors degree for the top universities would be enough. And as you said, the best coders are not good coders because of university education, but because it is a passion for them. I don't think you can learn valuable coding skills in class. The class can teach you the basics, the rest in just your interest and passion. Many coders I know are self taught, from early ages.
Any much said, I believe the stakeholders needs to look an IT education in our universities. The curriculum is dated, and the kind of graduates the churn can't cut it in the corporate market. University education seems to have been too commercialized in Kenya, with Universities taking over the whole of city center with their 'campuses.'
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Philip Certifications are Rad (pun intended) in Network, Server Administration etc etc Not in software development On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Philip Musyoki <pmusyoki@gmail.com> wrote:
I tend to agree with your observations. But in Kenya, most employers put a lot of premium in certifications. I guess it is something to do with the caliber of our IT education at the University level; it is not one to be compared with universities like MIT or Stanford. So employers, in addition to basic degrees, want all manner of certifications to prove to them you can do the job.
In countries like US, I think a bachelors degree for the top universities would be enough. And as you said, the best coders are not good coders because of university education, but because it is a passion for them. I don't think you can learn valuable coding skills in class. The class can teach you the basics, the rest in just your interest and passion. Many coders I know are self taught, from early ages.
Any much said, I believe the stakeholders needs to look an IT education in our universities. The curriculum is dated, and the kind of graduates the churn can't cut it in the corporate market. University education seems to have been too commercialized in Kenya, with Universities taking over the whole of city center with their 'campuses.'
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This whole certifications tends to hide the real issue: Can you actually deliver/ship. Your hiring process in my opinion needs to take a new approach. Like create some time, issue out a requirements document, maybe give a preferred language or framework and ask for a result, then let each candidate 'defend' their solution to a small panel. I work primarily on networks and giving a small practical interview (design a network to deliver X using ISIS as your IGP and BGP blah blah blah) followed by a discussion on your design choices rarely fails us get the best candidate/s. another example I used when a friends company needed a consultant was a simple call up so and so and negotiate a new peering/transit agreement, document it and bring results in 3 days. .....so Agosta even in networking apart from the fact that some vendors insist on certified guys working on their equipment, it still doesn't matter, get people that can do the work first. I am firmly in the camp that believes there are other skills that a make a good employee/coder/networker;maybe experience,past projects,attitude etc. Gitau On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Agosta Liko <agostal@gmail.com> wrote:
Philip
Certifications are Rad (pun intended) in Network, Server Administration etc etc
Not in software development
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Philip Musyoki <pmusyoki@gmail.com>wrote:
I tend to agree with your observations. But in Kenya, most employers put a lot of premium in certifications. I guess it is something to do with the caliber of our IT education at the University level; it is not one to be compared with universities like MIT or Stanford. So employers, in addition to basic degrees, want all manner of certifications to prove to them you can do the job.
In countries like US, I think a bachelors degree for the top universities would be enough. And as you said, the best coders are not good coders because of university education, but because it is a passion for them. I don't think you can learn valuable coding skills in class. The class can teach you the basics, the rest in just your interest and passion. Many coders I know are self taught, from early ages.
Any much said, I believe the stakeholders needs to look an IT education in our universities. The curriculum is dated, and the kind of graduates the churn can't cut it in the corporate market. University education seems to have been too commercialized in Kenya, with Universities taking over the whole of city center with their 'campuses.'
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-- **Gitau
Weighty discussion in deed. On one hand it's a great idea. I wouldn't mind being certified myself (and take a photo or 2 with those x-mass glitters during graduation). On the other hand I don't know who would ask me for the certificate. I've never heard nor read of any software company even the giants like google, amazon, FB, ... requesting for a software engineering certificate. Will the government (for instance) require a local software company to have it's developers certified? Will Microsoft have to proove it's Windows/MS Office devs are certified with this certification before selling software to goverment? If it becomes a requirement for a local developer/company, then it's fair to say that it should apply across the board. I do get the spirit behind the certification. However lets also be weary of issues that might come along with it. O_o? BTW: Mr. Kukubo, the IT industry survey was great. I'm looking forward to more. ________________________________ From: John Gitau <jgitau@gmail.com> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, certification program for entry level developers This whole certifications tends to hide the real issue: Can you actually deliver/ship. Your hiring process in my opinion needs to take a new approach. Like create some time, issue out a requirements document, maybe give a preferred language or framework and ask for a result, then let each candidate 'defend' their solution to a small panel. I work primarily on networks and giving a small practical interview (design a network to deliver X using ISIS as your IGP and BGP blah blah blah) followed by a discussion on your design choices rarely fails us get the best candidate/s. another example I used when a friends company needed a consultant was a simple call up so and so and negotiate a new peering/transit agreement, document it and bring results in 3 days. .....so Agosta even in networking apart from the fact that some vendors insist on certified guys working on their equipment, it still doesn't matter, get people that can do the work first. I am firmly in the camp that believes there are other skills that a make a good employee/coder/networker;maybe experience,past projects,attitude etc. Gitau On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Agosta Liko <agostal@gmail.com> wrote: Philip
Certifications are Rad (pun intended) in Network, Server Administration etc etc
Not in software development
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Philip Musyoki <pmusyoki@gmail.com> wrote:
I tend to agree with your observations. But in Kenya, most employers put a lot of premium in certifications. I guess it is something to do with the caliber of our IT education at the University level; it is not one to be compared with universities like MIT or Stanford. So employers, in addition to basic degrees, want all manner of certifications to prove to them you can do the job.
In countries like US, I think a bachelors degree for the top universities would be enough. And as you said, the best coders are not good coders because of university education, but because it is a passion for them. I don't think you can learn valuable coding skills in class. The class can teach you the basics, the rest in just your interest and passion. Many coders I know are self taught, from early ages.
Any much said, I believe the stakeholders needs to look an IT education in our universities. The curriculum is dated, and the kind of graduates the churn can't cut it in the corporate market. University education seems to have been too commercialized in Kenya, with Universities taking over the whole of city center with their 'campuses.'
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-- **Gitau _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Chipuka is targeted at "entry level" developers, and is meant to help companies in identifying who the Kenyan developers are. In fact, KICTB through Open Data should publish the number of Computer Science and related courses, and you will see how numerous they are compared to the vacancies we have. So yes, it appears that we had to come up with another exam since our learning institutions are churning out managers, rather than developers. Ndemo said that the need for such a concept arose after the KICTB visited
Silicon Valley and marketed the country as a software development destination. Following the visit, firms including IBM came into the country, but found few "employable" developers. "We have been looking at the supply side of things, but no one has been looking the the demand," explained Ndemo.
I agree with @Josh fully, On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
After having spent a pretty significant part of the last year and half recruiting software engineers here in Nairobi it seems to me that on average Kenyan developers already have five or ten time times the number of certifications that developers in the US do. At the same time, based on my technical evaluations of the candidates I've seen, software engineering talent seems to be inversely related to the number of certifications. It has gotten to the point where I count certifications against the candidate when I look at their CV.
In my opinion, top developers have a real passion for coding; enough that they spend a lot of their spare time coding or thinking about coding. These are folks that would code even if they weren't paid for it - they do it because they enjoy coding and solving challenging technical problems.
I think that the best thing this board can do is allow those seeking certifications to work on actual problems over a period of time with qualified software engineers on real projects in their preferred languages / frameworks / tool sets. Then the more experienced guys can give their assessment(s) of the candidates attached to them on different criteria as part of getting the certifications. The main idea is to let the prospective applicants put their coding skills to practice. This in my opinion is absolutely essential in not only programming but any other field where one is willing to gain mastery. Martin. A passionate coder would rather spend his/her free time doing extra coding
for their employer, working on their own cool side project or contributing to an open source project than taking an exam.
I'm not sure if the interest in certifications here is because local employers put a high value on them but my experience in the US is that most top tech employers don't. On the contrary I've seen job ads from Google that explicitly ask for engineers who have contributed to open source projects but I've never seen one ask for certification. For entry level software engineers, it is all about the university program attended. If you graduated from MIT, Stanford or Carnegie Mellon with decent marks you can walk into just about any entry level position at any tech company. The people who get certifications in the US are those that don't have a degree at all. I would be surprised to hear that any Carnegie Mellon CS grads are out getting certifications. Rather than having Carnegie Mellon focusing on this certification program why not have them open up a campus in Nairobi like they are doing in Kigali? As a hiring manager, someone with a degree from Carnegie Mellon Nairobi would jump right to the top of the list over the folks with 20 different certifications.
Josh
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Thanks for the comments. I am just coming onto nation tv with Larry Madowo on PM live starting at 12.15pm live. I will be talking about this and as he is on the mailing list too, he already seen many of your comments. My twitter handle is @pkukubo and larry's is @larrymadowo. Regards On Monday, February 13, 2012, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with @Josh fully,
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
After having spent a pretty significant part of the last year and half
recruiting software engineers here in Nairobi it seems to me that on average Kenyan developers already have five or ten time times the number of certifications that developers in the US do. At the same time, based on my technical evaluations of the candidates I've seen, software engineering talent seems to be inversely related to the number of certifications. It has gotten to the point where I count certifications against the candidate when I look at their CV.
In my opinion, top developers have a real passion for coding; enough
that they spend a lot of their spare time coding or thinking about coding. These are folks that would code even if they weren't paid for it - they do it because they enjoy coding and solving challenging technical problems.
I think that the best thing this board can do is allow those seeking certifications to work on actual problems over a period of time with qualified software engineers on real projects in their preferred languages / frameworks / tool sets. Then the more experienced guys can give their assessment(s) of the candidates attached to them on different criteria as part of getting the certifications.
The main idea is to let the prospective applicants put their coding skills to practice. This in my opinion is absolutely essential in not only programming but any other field where one is willing to gain mastery. Martin.
A passionate coder would rather spend his/her free time doing extra
coding for their employer, working on their own cool side project or contributing to an open source project than taking an exam.
I'm not sure if the interest in certifications here is because local
employers put a high value on them but my experience in the US is that most top tech employers don't. On the contrary I've seen job ads from Google that explicitly ask for engineers who have contributed to open source projects but I've never seen one ask for certification. For entry level software engineers, it is all about the university program attended. If you graduated from MIT, Stanford or Carnegie Mellon with decent marks you can walk into just about any entry level position at any tech company. The people who get certifications in the US are those that don't have a degree at all. I would be surprised to hear that any Carnegie Mellon CS grads are out getting certifications. Rather than having Carnegie Mellon focusing on this certification program why not have them open up a campus in Nairobi like they are doing in Kigali? As a hiring manager, someone with a degree from Carnegie Mellon Nairobi would jump right to the top of the list over the folks with 20 different certifications.
Josh
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-- Paul Kukubo Chief Executive Officer, Kenya ICT Board PO Box 27150 - 00100 Nairobi, Kenya 12th Floor, Teleposta Towers Koinange Street Tel +254 20 2089061, +254 20 2211960 Fax: +254 20 2211962 website: www.ict.go.ke local content project: www.tandaa.co.ke, www.facebook.com/tandaakenya twitter:@tandaaKENYA BPO Project: www. doitinkenya.co.ke Digital Villages Project: www.pasha.co.ke personal contacts _______________ Cell: + 254 717 180001 skype: kukubopaul googletalk: pkukubo personal blog: www.paulkukubo.co.ke personal twitter: @pkukubo ____________________ Vision: Kenya becomes a top ten global ICT hub Mission: To champion and actively enable Kenya to adopt and exploit ICT, through promotion of partnerships, investments and infrastructure growth for socio economic enrichment
Would someone record this and share? I guess most folks like me will not be in a position to watch this program during work time. I agree with Josh - I graduated from a local university in Kenya 3 of my colleagues joined Microsoft straight as SDEs/SDETs without any experience nor certification (except college & side projects) and strong passion for developing. The recruitment process was pretty rigorous and focused mostly on problem solving, decent coding, and underlying knowledge of computer science fundermentals. Despite graduating from a local univeristy today they all work on projects with the Stanfords, CMUs, MITs etc and are doing great. So I dont believe in being any inferior in skills/knowlege to the MITs of this world. Its all about passion for developing software that will take you to greater heights. regards, R. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Paul Kukubo <pkukubo@ict.go.ke> wrote:
Thanks for the comments.
I am just coming onto nation tv with Larry Madowo on PM live starting at 12.15pm live. I will be talking about this and as he is on the mailing list too, he already seen many of your comments.
My twitter handle is @pkukubo and larry's is @larrymadowo.
Regards
On Monday, February 13, 2012, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with @Josh fully,
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
After having spent a pretty significant part of the last year and half
recruiting software engineers here in Nairobi it seems to me that on average Kenyan developers already have five or ten time times the number of certifications that developers in the US do. At the same time, based on my technical evaluations of the candidates I've seen, software engineering talent seems to be inversely related to the number of certifications. It has gotten to the point where I count certifications against the candidate when I look at their CV.
In my opinion, top developers have a real passion for coding; enough
that they spend a lot of their spare time coding or thinking about coding. These are folks that would code even if they weren't paid for it - they do it because they enjoy coding and solving challenging technical problems.
I think that the best thing this board can do is allow those seeking certifications to work on actual problems over a period of time with qualified software engineers on real projects in their preferred languages / frameworks / tool sets. Then the more experienced guys can give their assessment(s) of the candidates attached to them on different criteria as part of getting the certifications.
The main idea is to let the prospective applicants put their coding skills to practice. This in my opinion is absolutely essential in not only programming but any other field where one is willing to gain mastery. Martin.
A passionate coder would rather spend his/her free time doing extra
coding for their employer, working on their own cool side project or contributing to an open source project than taking an exam.
I'm not sure if the interest in certifications here is because local
employers put a high value on them but my experience in the US is that most top tech employers don't. On the contrary I've seen job ads from Google that explicitly ask for engineers who have contributed to open source projects but I've never seen one ask for certification. For entry level software engineers, it is all about the university program attended. If you graduated from MIT, Stanford or Carnegie Mellon with decent marks you can walk into just about any entry level position at any tech company. The people who get certifications in the US are those that don't have a degree at all. I would be surprised to hear that any Carnegie Mellon CS grads are out getting certifications. Rather than having Carnegie Mellon focusing on this certification program why not have them open up a campus in Nairobi like they are doing in Kigali? As a hiring manager, someone with a degree from Carnegie Mellon Nairobi would jump right to the top of the list over the folks with 20 different certifications.
Josh
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-- Paul Kukubo Chief Executive Officer, Kenya ICT Board PO Box 27150 - 00100 Nairobi, Kenya
12th Floor, Teleposta Towers Koinange Street
Tel +254 20 2089061, +254 20 2211960 Fax: +254 20 2211962 website: www.ict.go.ke local content project: www.tandaa.co.ke, www.facebook.com/tandaakenya twitter:@tandaaKENYA BPO Project: www. doitinkenya.co.ke Digital Villages Project: www.pasha.co.ke
personal contacts _______________
Cell: + 254 717 180001
skype: kukubopaul googletalk: pkukubo personal blog: www.paulkukubo.co.ke personal twitter: @pkukubo
____________________ Vision: Kenya becomes a top ten global ICT hub
Mission: To champion and actively enable Kenya to adopt and exploit ICT, through promotion of partnerships, investments and infrastructure growth for socio economic enrichment
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- "Change is slow and gradual. It requires hardwork, a bit of luck, a fair amount of self-sacrifice and a lot of patience." Roy.
Listers There is a healthy debate going on here and actually the coments are all being sent through to our project team. Thank you all for the candid comments. This forum is represents crucial stakeholders of this project. Some people feel certification is a waste of time because good developers are always proven in action. Others feel that this is an important initiative because they have faced the challenges of poor execution. Let me share the sentiments we have. Our research suggests we have substantial skills gaps. Many Employers feel we have to fix the basics. Most of the better software developers feel there is no need for this. I also notice a strand of discussion that is about self drive. I wonder, what does the evidence out there suggest? Are our software developers cutting their teeth on writing machine code, writing software to operate hardware? extending operating system functionality? writing large scale systems? If you have some case studies out there, kindly share. We are looking for case studies of large software teams working together with some specialization? The packaged software business globally is 300 Billion USD odd, according to IDC. This excludes the downloadable apps business and bespoke software developer business done on a client need basis., much of it done on open source platforms, a huge business too. Asante. Paul Kukubo CEO, Kenya ICT Board On Monday, February 13, 2012, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote:
Would someone record this and share? I guess most folks like me will not be in a position to watch this program during work time.
I agree with Josh - I graduated from a local university in Kenya 3 of my colleagues joined Microsoft straight as SDEs/SDETs without any experience nor certification (except college & side projects) and strong passion for developing. The recruitment process was pretty rigorous and focused mostly on problem solving, decent coding, and underlying knowledge of computer science fundermentals. Despite graduating from a local univeristy today they all work on projects with the Stanfords, CMUs, MITs etc and are doing great.
So I dont believe in being any inferior in skills/knowlege to the MITs of this world. Its all about passion for developing software that will take you to greater heights.
regards, R. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Paul Kukubo <pkukubo@ict.go.ke> wrote:
Thanks for the comments.
I am just coming onto nation tv with Larry Madowo on PM live starting at
12.15pm live. I will be talking about this and as he is on the mailing list too, he already seen many of your comments.
My twitter handle is @pkukubo and larry's is @larrymadowo.
Regards
On Monday, February 13, 2012, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>
wrote:
I agree with @Josh fully,
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
After having spent a pretty significant part of the last year and
half recruiting software engineers here in Nairobi it seems to me that on average Kenyan developers already have five or ten time times the number of certifications that developers in the US do. At the same time, based on my technical evaluations of the candidates I've seen, software engineering talent seems to be inversely related to the number of certifications. It has gotten to the point where I count certifications against the candidate when I look at their CV.
In my opinion, top developers have a real passion for coding; enough
that they spend a lot of their spare time coding or thinking about coding. These are folks that would code even if they weren't paid for it - they do it because they enjoy coding and solving challenging technical problems.
I think that the best thing this board can do is allow those seeking certifications to work on actual problems over a period of time with qualified software engineers on real projects in their preferred languages / frameworks / tool sets. Then the more experienced guys can give their assessment(s) of the candidates attached to them on different criteria as part of getting the certifications.
The main idea is to let the prospective applicants put their coding skills to practice. This in my opinion is absolutely essential in not only programming but any other field where one is willing to gain mastery. Martin.
A passionate coder would rather spend his/her free time doing extra
coding for their employer, working on their own cool side project or contributing to an open source project than taking an exam.
I'm not sure if the interest in certifications here is because local
employers put a high value on them but my experience in the US is that most top tech employers don't. On the contrary I've seen job ads from Google that explicitly ask for engineers who have contributed to open source projects but I've never seen one ask for certification. For entry level software engineers, it is all about the university program attended. If you graduated from MIT, Stanford or Carnegie Mellon with decent marks you can walk into just about any entry level position at any tech company. The people who get certifications in the US are those that don't have a degree at all. I would be surprised to hear that any Carnegie Mellon CS grads are out getting certifications. Rather than having Carnegie Mellon focusing on this certification program why not have them open up a campus in Nairobi like they are doing in Kigali? As a hiring manager, someone with a degree from Carnegie Mellon Nairobi would jump right to the top of the list over the folks with 20 different certifications.
Josh
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Paul Kukubo Chief Executive Officer, Kenya ICT Board PO Box 27150 - 00100 Nairobi, Kenya
12th Floor, Teleposta Towers Koinange Street
Tel +254 20 2089061, +254 20 2211960 Fax: +254 20 2211962 website: www.ict.go.ke local content project: www.tandaa.co.ke, www.facebook.com/tandaakenya twitter:@tandaaKENYA BPO Project: www. doitinkenya.co.ke Digital Villages Project: www.pasha.co.ke
personal contacts _______________
Cell: + 254 717 180001
skype: kukubopaul googletalk: pkukubo personal blog: www.paulkukubo.co.ke personal twitter: @pkukubo
____________________ Vision: Kenya becomes a top ten global ICT hub
Mission: To champion and actively enable Kenya to adopt and exploit ICT, through promotion of partnerships, investments and infrastructure growth for socio economic enrichment
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- "Change is slow and gradual. It requires hardwork, a bit of luck, a fair amount of self-sacrifice and a lot of patience."
Roy.
-- Paul Kukubo Chief Executive Officer, Kenya ICT Board PO Box 27150 - 00100 Nairobi, Kenya 12th Floor, Teleposta Towers Koinange Street Tel +254 20 2089061, +254 20 2211960 Fax: +254 20 2211962 website: www.ict.go.ke local content project: www.tandaa.co.ke, www.facebook.com/tandaakenya twitter:@tandaaKENYA BPO Project: www. doitinkenya.co.ke Digital Villages Project: www.pasha.co.ke personal contacts _______________ Cell: + 254 717 180001 skype: kukubopaul googletalk: pkukubo personal blog: www.paulkukubo.co.ke personal twitter: @pkukubo ____________________ Vision: Kenya becomes a top ten global ICT hub Mission: To champion and actively enable Kenya to adopt and exploit ICT, through promotion of partnerships, investments and infrastructure growth for socio economic enrichment
Paul, Indeed the basics have to be set. I would like to echo what a couple of other listers have suggested which is to have this weakness sorted out at the university level. The content of the certification may be embedded into the university course... However this brings another problem of how many potential Kenyan software developers who might not make it to university due to the ridiculous cut-off points. 8~( Regarding specialization... IMO this will happen as the industry grows (at it's natural pace of demand & supply). I see more specialization now than 5 years ago. Most of the budding software developers are very resourceful and eager to learn. Passion is key as other listers put it. I think most of the software companies in Kenya that have been founded in Kenya (not an extension of established international software companies) are in the start-up stage or just emerging from this stage. They're yet to get to a point of mature processes, and without these mature processes it's difficult to have specialization in place. Based on that I will share one of my experiences on how an idea was transformed into a product while building a larger team & a path to specialization: One of the software projects I've worked on involves a mobile backup solution. In the beginning I had to advice and design everything: From the various mobile platforms & SIM software, to the servers running from Amazon and Google. However the project has matured more and processes are being put in place. It is much easier to get more specialized developers into the team now. It is difficult to find them but if we get a passionate, self driven individual, we train and offer them a part of the returns of the business so that they feel like they're part of the company. This is one way to keep great software developers whom we've spent resources in naturing. O_O ________________________________ From: Paul Kukubo <pkukubo@ict.go.ke> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Cc: alewela <alewela@ict.go.ke> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, certification program for entry level developers Listers There is a healthy debate going on here and actually the coments are all being sent through to our project team. Thank you all for the candid comments. This forum is represents crucial stakeholders of this project. Some people feel certification is a waste of time because good developers are always proven in action. Others feel that this is an important initiative because they have faced the challenges of poor execution. Let me share the sentiments we have. Our research suggests we have substantial skills gaps. Many Employers feel we have to fix the basics. Most of the better software developers feel there is no need for this. I also notice a strand of discussion that is about self drive. I wonder, what does the evidence out there suggest? Are our software developers cutting their teeth on writing machine code, writing software to operate hardware? extending operating system functionality? writing large scale systems? If you have some case studies out there, kindly share. We are looking for case studies of large software teams working together with some specialization? The packaged software business globally is 300 Billion USD odd, according to IDC. This excludes the downloadable apps business and bespoke software developer business done on a client need basis., much of it done on open source platforms, a huge business too. Asante. Paul Kukubo CEO, Kenya ICT Board On Monday, February 13, 2012, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote:
Would someone record this and share? I guess most folks like me will not be in a position to watch this program during work time. I agree with Josh - I graduated from a local university in Kenya 3 of my colleagues joined Microsoft straight as SDEs/SDETs without any experience nor certification (except college & side projects) and strong passion for developing. The recruitment process was pretty rigorous and focused mostly on problem solving, decent coding, and underlying knowledge of computer science fundermentals. Despite graduating from a local univeristy today they all work on projects with the Stanfords, CMUs, MITs etc and are doing great. So I dont believe in being any inferior in skills/knowlege to the MITs of this world. Its all about passion for developing software that will take you to greater heights. regards, R. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Paul Kukubo <pkukubo@ict.go.ke> wrote:
Thanks for the comments.
I am just coming onto nation tv with Larry Madowo on PM live starting at 12.15pm live. I will be talking about this and as he is on the mailing list too, he already seen many of your comments.
My twitter handle is @pkukubo and larry's is @larrymadowo.
Regards
On Monday, February 13, 2012, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with @Josh fully,
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Josh Handley <josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
After having spent a pretty significant part of the last year and half recruiting software engineers here in Nairobi it seems to me that on average Kenyan developers already have five or ten time times the number of certifications that developers in the US do. At the same time, based on my technical evaluations of the candidates I've seen, software engineering talent seems to be inversely related to the number of certifications. It has gotten to the point where I count certifications against the candidate when I look at their CV.
In my opinion, top developers have a real passion for coding; enough that they spend a lot of their spare time coding or thinking about coding. These are folks that would code even if they weren't paid for it - they do it because they enjoy coding and solving challenging technical problems.
I think that the best thing this board can do is allow those seeking certifications to work on actual problems over a period of time with qualified software engineers on real projects in their preferred languages / frameworks / tool sets. Then the more experienced guys can give their assessment(s) of the candidates attached to them on different criteria as part of getting the certifications.
The main idea is to let the prospective applicants put their coding skills to practice. This in my opinion is absolutely essential in not only programming but any other field where one is willing to gain mastery. Martin.
A passionate coder would rather spend his/her free time doing extra coding for their employer, working on their own cool side project or contributing to an open source project than taking an exam.
I'm not sure if the interest in certifications here is because local employers put a high value on them but my experience in the US is that most top tech employers don't. On the contrary I've seen job ads from Google that explicitly ask for engineers who have contributed to open source projects but I've never seen one ask for certification. For entry level software engineers, it is all about the university program attended. If you graduated from MIT, Stanford or Carnegie Mellon with decent marks you can walk into just about any entry level position at any tech company. The people who get certifications in the US are those that don't have a degree at all. I would be surprised to hear that any Carnegie Mellon CS grads are out getting certifications. Rather than having Carnegie Mellon focusing on this certification program why not have them open up a campus in Nairobi like they are doing in Kigali? As a hiring manager, someone with a
degree from Carnegie Mellon Nairobi would jump right to the top of the list over the folks with 20 different certifications.
Josh
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Paul Kukubo Chief Executive Officer, Kenya ICT Board PO Box 27150 - 00100 Nairobi, Kenya
12th Floor, Teleposta Towers Koinange Street
Tel +254 20 2089061, +254 20 2211960 Fax: +254 20 2211962 website: www.ict.go.ke local content project: www.tandaa.co.ke, www.facebook.com/tandaakenya twitter:@tandaaKENYA BPO Project: www. doitinkenya.co.ke Digital Villages Project: www.pasha.co.ke
personal contacts _______________
Cell: + 254 717 180001
skype: kukubopaul googletalk: pkukubo personal blog: www.paulkukubo.co.ke personal twitter: @pkukubo
____________________ Vision: Kenya becomes a top ten global ICT hub
Mission: To champion and actively enable Kenya to adopt and exploit ICT, through promotion of partnerships, investments and infrastructure growth for socio economic enrichment
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- "Change is slow and gradual. It requires hardwork, a bit of luck, a fair amount of self-sacrifice and a lot of patience."
Roy.
-- Paul Kukubo Chief Executive Officer, Kenya ICT Board PO Box 27150 - 00100 Nairobi, Kenya 12th Floor, Teleposta Towers Koinange Street Tel +254 20 2089061, +254 20 2211960 Fax: +254 20 2211962 website: www.ict.go.ke local content project: www.tandaa.co.ke, www.facebook.com/tandaakenya twitter:@tandaaKENYA BPO Project: www. doitinkenya.co.ke Digital Villages Project: www.pasha.co.ke personal contacts _______________ Cell: + 254 717 180001 skype: kukubopaul googletalk: pkukubo personal blog: www.paulkukubo.co.ke personal twitter: @pkukubo ____________________ Vision: Kenya becomes a top ten global ICT hub Mission: To champion and actively enable Kenya to adopt and exploit ICT, through promotion of partnerships, investments and infrastructure growth for socio economic enrichment _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Certification - if this is what 'the hiring guys' need to see to give my firm the job- is ok. I hope the only qualifications you will ask for in order to sit for the certification is either a birth cert or a national ID/ passport to prove he/she is human. There we are in tandem *_______________________________________________________________ We must Keep on, * On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 9:47 AM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>wrote:
Paul,
Indeed the basics have to be set. I would like to echo what a couple of other listers have suggested which is to have this weakness sorted out at the university level. The content of the certification may be embedded into the university course... However this brings another problem of how many potential Kenyan software developers who might not make it to university due to the ridiculous cut-off points. 8~(
Regarding specialization... IMO this will happen as the industry grows (at it's natural pace of demand & supply). I see more specialization now than 5 years ago. Most of the budding software developers are very resourceful and eager to learn. Passion is key as other listers put it. I think most of the software companies in Kenya that have been founded in Kenya (not an extension of established international software companies) are in the start-up stage or just emerging from this stage. They're yet to get to a point of mature processes, and without these mature processes it's difficult to have specialization in place. Based on that I will share one of my experiences on how an idea was transformed into a product while building a larger team & a path to specialization:
One of the software projects I've worked on involves a mobile backup solution. In the beginning I had to advice and design everything: From the various mobile platforms & SIM software, to the servers running from Amazon and Google. However the project has matured more and processes are being put in place. It is much easier to get more specialized developers into the team now. It is difficult to find them but if we get a passionate, self driven individual, we train and offer them a part of the returns of the business so that they feel like they're part of the company. This is one way to keep great software developers whom we've spent resources in naturing.
O_O
------------------------------ *From:* Paul Kukubo <pkukubo@ict.go.ke>
*To:* Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> *Cc:* alewela <alewela@ict.go.ke> *Sent:* Monday, February 13, 2012 4:25 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Skunkworks] KICTB "Chipuka": a new software, certification program for entry level developers
Listers
There is a healthy debate going on here and actually the coments are all being sent through to our project team. Thank you all for the candid comments. This forum is represents crucial stakeholders of this project.
Some people feel certification is a waste of time because good developers are always proven in action. Others feel that this is an important initiative because they have faced the challenges of poor execution.
Let me share the sentiments we have. Our research suggests we have substantial skills gaps. Many Employers feel we have to fix the basics. Most of the better software developers feel there is no need for this. I also notice a strand of discussion that is about self drive.
I wonder, what does the evidence out there suggest? Are our software developers cutting their teeth on writing machine code, writing software to operate hardware? extending operating system functionality? writing large scale systems? If you have some case studies out there, kindly share. We are looking for case studies of large software teams working together with some specialization?
The packaged software business globally is 300 Billion USD odd, according to IDC. This excludes the downloadable apps business and bespoke software developer business done on a client need basis., much of it done on open source platforms, a huge business too.
Asante. Paul Kukubo CEO, Kenya ICT Board
On Monday, February 13, 2012, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote:
Would someone record this and share? I guess most folks like me will not be in a position to watch this program during work time.
I agree with Josh - I graduated from a local university in Kenya 3 of my colleagues joined Microsoft straight as SDEs/SDETs without any experience nor certification (except college & side projects) and strong passion for developing. The recruitment process was pretty rigorous and focused mostly on problem solving, decent coding, and underlying knowledge of computer science fundermentals. Despite graduating from a local univeristy today they all work on projects with the Stanfords, CMUs, MITs etc and are doing great.
So I dont believe in being any inferior in skills/knowlege to the MITs of this world. Its all about passion for developing software that will take you to greater heights.
regards, R. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Paul Kukubo <pkukubo@ict.go.ke> wrote:
Thanks for the comments.
I am just coming onto nation tv with Larry Madowo on PM live starting
at 12.15pm live. I will be talking about this and as he is on the mailing list too, he already seen many of your comments.
My twitter handle is @pkukubo and larry's is @larrymadowo.
Regards
On Monday, February 13, 2012, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>
wrote:
I agree with @Josh fully,
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Josh Handley < josh@bridgeinternationalacademies.com> wrote:
After having spent a pretty significant part of the last year and
half recruiting software engineers here in Nairobi it seems to me that on average Kenyan developers already have five or ten time times the number of certifications that developers in the US do. At the same time, based on my technical evaluations of the candidates I've seen, software engineering talent seems to be inversely related to the number of certifications. It has gotten to the point where I count certifications against the candidate when I look at their CV.
In my opinion, top developers have a real passion for coding;
enough that they spend a lot of their spare time coding or thinking about coding. These are folks that would code even if they weren't paid for it - they do it because they enjoy coding and solving challenging technical problems.
I think that the best thing this board can do is allow those seeking certifications to work on actual problems over a period of time with qualified software engineers on real projects in their preferred languages / frameworks / tool sets. Then the more experienced guys can give their assessment(s) of the candidates attached to them on different criteria as part of getting the certifications.
The main idea is to let the prospective applicants put their coding skills to practice. This in my opinion is absolutely essential in not only programming but any other field where one is willing to gain mastery. Martin.
A passionate coder would rather spend his/her free time doing extra
coding for their employer, working on their own cool side project or contributing to an open source project than taking an exam.
I'm not sure if the interest in certifications here is because local
employers put a high value on them but my experience in the US is that most top tech employers don't. On the contrary I've seen job ads from Google that explicitly ask for engineers who have contributed to open source projects but I've never seen one ask for certification. For entry level software engineers, it is all about the university program attended. If you graduated from MIT, Stanford or Carnegie Mellon with decent marks you can walk into just about any entry level position at any tech company. The people who get certifications in the US are those that don't have a degree at all. I would be surprised to hear that any Carnegie Mellon CS grads are out getting certifications. Rather than having Carnegie Mellon focusing on this certification program why not have them open up a campus in Nairobi like they are doing in Kigali? As a hiring manager, someone with a degree from Carnegie Mellon Nairobi would jump right to the top of the list over the folks with 20 different certifications.
Josh
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Paul Kukubo Chief Executive Officer, Kenya ICT Board PO Box 27150 - 00100 Nairobi, Kenya
12th Floor, Teleposta Towers Koinange Street
Tel +254 20 2089061, +254 20 2211960 Fax: +254 20 2211962 website: www.ict.go.ke local content project: www.tandaa.co.ke, www.facebook.com/tandaakenya twitter:@tandaaKENYA BPO Project: www. doitinkenya.co.ke Digital Villages Project: www.pasha.co.ke
personal contacts _______________
Cell: + 254 717 180001
skype: kukubopaul googletalk: pkukubo personal blog: www.paulkukubo.co.ke personal twitter: @pkukubo
____________________ Vision: Kenya becomes a top ten global ICT hub
Mission: To champion and actively enable Kenya to adopt and exploit ICT, through promotion of partnerships, investments and infrastructure growth for socio economic enrichment
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- "Change is slow and gradual. It requires hardwork, a bit of luck, a fair amount of self-sacrifice and a lot of patience."
Roy.
-- Paul Kukubo Chief Executive Officer, Kenya ICT Board PO Box 27150 - 00100 Nairobi, Kenya
12th Floor, Teleposta Towers Koinange Street
Tel +254 20 2089061, +254 20 2211960 Fax: +254 20 2211962 website: www.ict.go.ke local content project: www.tandaa.co.ke, www.facebook.com/tandaakenya twitter:@tandaaKENYA BPO Project: www. doitinkenya.co.ke Digital Villages Project: www.pasha.co.ke
personal contacts _______________
Cell: + 254 717 180001
skype: kukubopaul googletalk: pkukubo personal blog: www.paulkukubo.co.ke personal twitter: @pkukubo
____________________ Vision: Kenya becomes a top ten global ICT hub
Mission: To champion and actively enable Kenya to adopt and exploit ICT, through promotion of partnerships, investments and infrastructure growth for socio economic enrichment
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Hi Josh, I agree and disagree at the same time ;-) I agree that certificates generally are being abused or does not really say anything in Kenya, in many cases you simply get a certificate for nothing. "Certificate that person X has participated in activity Y" - it tells you nothing other than that person was able to actually show up for whatever was happening. In true spirit of Generation Y (aka. the Trophy generation - everyone gets a trophy). Within my limited time in Kenya I have personally already acquired two "certificates", without having to demonstrate any understanding or skill-level. I disagree that that Chipuka is the same thing - or at least it is not intended to be (lets see when it goes live), the significant difference here is that it requires you do demonstrate hands-on developer skills - as mentioned earlier it is of-course important to know exactly what those requirements, when evaluating any potential staff. I have witnessed quite a few Kenyan IT-graduates, who did not understand loops and arrays i.e. the very basics of programming, how that is even possible is almost a mystery to me. My best guess is that either there are too few hands-on assignments in the university, or everything is "group-work" and that each group has 1-2 people who understands how to code, and the rest are just free-riding - anyway I don't know. .. Michael Pedersen On 2/13/12 6:53 AM, Josh Handley wrote:
After having spent a pretty significant part of the last year and half recruiting software engineers here in Nairobi it seems to me that on average Kenyan developers already have five or ten time times the number of certifications that developers in the US do. At the same time, based on my technical evaluations of the candidates I've seen, software engineering talent seems to be inversely related to the number of certifications. It has gotten to the point where I count certifications against the candidate when I look at their CV.
In my opinion, top developers have a real passion for coding; enough that they spend a lot of their spare time coding or thinking about coding. These are folks that would code even if they weren't paid for it - they do it because they enjoy coding and solving challenging technical problems. A passionate coder would rather spend his/her free time doing extra coding for their employer, working on their own cool side project or contributing to an open source project than taking an exam.
I'm not sure if the interest in certifications here is because local employers put a high value on them but my experience in the US is that most top tech employers don't. On the contrary I've seen job ads from Google that explicitly ask for engineers who have contributed to open source projects but I've never seen one ask for certification. For entry level software engineers, it is all about the university program attended. If you graduated from MIT, Stanford or Carnegie Mellon with decent marks you can walk into just about any entry level position at any tech company. The people who get certifications in the US are those that don't have a degree at all. I would be surprised to hear that any Carnegie Mellon CS grads are out getting certifications. Rather than having Carnegie Mellon focusing on this certification program why not have them open up a campus in Nairobi like they are doing in Kigali? As a hiring manager, someone with a degree from Carnegie Mellon Nairobi would jump right to the top of the list over the folks with 20 different certifications.
Josh
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
participants (12)
-
Agosta Liko -
Dennis Kioko -
joe mwirigi -
John Gitau -
Josh Handley -
Martin Chiteri -
Michael Pedersen -
Paul Kukubo -
Paul Roy -
Philip Musyoki -
wesley kirinya -
Wilson Bandi