Dear listers, (Sorry for cross posting) I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013. After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app. I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems. <https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactionSpec.pdf> We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server. I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time. All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests from the client and the vendors. On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side. On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza. On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day. I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client. We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division. In this case, who legally owns the software? In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me. If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me. Regards, Erastus +254716165716
Hi Erastus, Contract was terminated by CeVen prematurely. No clause in the contract that stipulates the pre-termination of the contract, you can request for compensation of your total projected income to 2019. I also believe that the contract can be interpreted as "*Joint Venture*". CeVen did not subcontract you to develop software but to fill in a business gap. The challenge in this contract is the use of the word "*software*". Skunks, If you want to reduce the risk of such incidents use word like; *Solution or applications in place of software. *Software can easily be concluded to mean the product including the source code. Applications or solutions means whatever technology you use, as long as results is achieved. You can create a business model and apply *function point analysis* to evaluate the cost of source code, then you re-value the software and 'do out of the court' settlement. *"If you can create it,you can destroy it". Anonymous :)* Regards, Isaac Kiplagat Regards, Isaac On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Dear listers,
(Sorry for cross posting)
I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013.
After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app.
I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems.
<https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactionSpec.pdf>
We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server.
I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time.
All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests from the client and the vendors.
On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side.
On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza.
On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day.
I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client.
We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division.
In this case, who legally owns the software?
In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me.
If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me.
Regards, Erastus +254716165716
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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I was hoping this one would attract a lot of contributions I could glean from too. Especially from those with a legal background. Is the loud silence because discussing the matter might be sub-judice ? -- Ndungi Kyalo On 11 February 2015 at 09:09, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Hi Erastus,
Contract was terminated by CeVen prematurely. No clause in the contract that stipulates the pre-termination of the contract, you can request for compensation of your total projected income to 2019.
I also believe that the contract can be interpreted as "*Joint Venture*". CeVen did not subcontract you to develop software but to fill in a business gap. The challenge in this contract is the use of the word "*software*". Skunks, If you want to reduce the risk of such incidents use word like; *Solution or applications in place of software. *Software can easily be concluded to mean the product including the source code. Applications or solutions means whatever technology you use, as long as results is achieved.
You can create a business model and apply *function point analysis* to evaluate the cost of source code, then you re-value the software and 'do out of the court' settlement.
*"If you can create it,you can destroy it". Anonymous :)*
Regards, Isaac Kiplagat
Regards, Isaac On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Dear listers,
(Sorry for cross posting)
I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013.
After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app.
I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems.
<https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactionSpec.pdf>
We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server.
I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time.
All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests from the client and the vendors.
On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side.
On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza.
On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day.
I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client.
We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division.
In this case, who legally owns the software?
In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me.
If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me.
Regards, Erastus +254716165716
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Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Skunks are funny animals, they want brevity despite of their long tails. For the case of Erastus, details is very important and is a ideal case study to put in our long list of *Lessons Learnt*. By the way, by posting this Erastus is violating NDA.. regards On 11 February 2015 at 10:03, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
I was hoping this one would attract a lot of contributions I could glean from too. Especially from those with a legal background. Is the loud silence because discussing the matter might be sub-judice ?
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 11 February 2015 at 09:09, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Hi Erastus,
Contract was terminated by CeVen prematurely. No clause in the contract that stipulates the pre-termination of the contract, you can request for compensation of your total projected income to 2019.
I also believe that the contract can be interpreted as "*Joint Venture*". CeVen did not subcontract you to develop software but to fill in a business gap. The challenge in this contract is the use of the word "*software*". Skunks, If you want to reduce the risk of such incidents use word like; *Solution or applications in place of software. *Software can easily be concluded to mean the product including the source code. Applications or solutions means whatever technology you use, as long as results is achieved.
You can create a business model and apply *function point analysis* to evaluate the cost of source code, then you re-value the software and 'do out of the court' settlement.
*"If you can create it,you can destroy it". Anonymous :)*
Regards, Isaac Kiplagat
Regards, Isaac On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Dear listers,
(Sorry for cross posting)
I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013.
After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app.
I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems.
<https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactionSpec.pdf>
We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server.
I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time.
All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests from the client and the vendors.
On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side.
On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza.
On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day.
I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client.
We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division.
In this case, who legally owns the software?
In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me.
If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me.
Regards, Erastus +254716165716
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
Its also tricky to start giving prescriptions while we have only heard the story from one side. But the simple lesson is tie all the loose ends when you are getting into a project. But who even knows a project will be the killer app anyway? ______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya "There are some men who lift the age they inhabit, till all men walk on higher ground in that lifetime." - Maxwell Anderson On 11 February 2015 at 10:37, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Skunks are funny animals, they want brevity despite of their long tails. For the case of Erastus, details is very important and is a ideal case study to put in our long list of *Lessons Learnt*.
By the way, by posting this Erastus is violating NDA..
regards
On 11 February 2015 at 10:03, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
I was hoping this one would attract a lot of contributions I could glean from too. Especially from those with a legal background. Is the loud silence because discussing the matter might be sub-judice ?
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 11 February 2015 at 09:09, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Hi Erastus,
Contract was terminated by CeVen prematurely. No clause in the contract that stipulates the pre-termination of the contract, you can request for compensation of your total projected income to 2019.
I also believe that the contract can be interpreted as "*Joint Venture*". CeVen did not subcontract you to develop software but to fill in a business gap. The challenge in this contract is the use of the word "*software*". Skunks, If you want to reduce the risk of such incidents use word like; *Solution or applications in place of software. *Software can easily be concluded to mean the product including the source code. Applications or solutions means whatever technology you use, as long as results is achieved.
You can create a business model and apply *function point analysis* to evaluate the cost of source code, then you re-value the software and 'do out of the court' settlement.
*"If you can create it,you can destroy it". Anonymous :)*
Regards, Isaac Kiplagat
Regards, Isaac On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Dear listers,
(Sorry for cross posting)
I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013.
After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app.
I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems.
<https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactionSpec.pdf>
We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server.
I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time.
All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests from the client and the vendors.
On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side.
On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza.
On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day.
I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client.
We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division.
In this case, who legally owns the software?
In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me.
If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me.
Regards, Erastus +254716165716
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
I think the question at hand is quite detailed and skunks are still digesting. Its not something you rush to give an answer. On Wednesday, February 11, 2015, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Skunks are funny animals, they want brevity despite of their long tails. For the case of Erastus, details is very important and is a ideal case study to put in our long list of *Lessons Learnt*.
By the way, by posting this Erastus is violating NDA..
regards
On 11 February 2015 at 10:03, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ndungi@gmail.com');>> wrote:
I was hoping this one would attract a lot of contributions I could glean from too. Especially from those with a legal background. Is the loud silence because discussing the matter might be sub-judice ?
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 11 February 2015 at 09:09, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
Hi Erastus,
Contract was terminated by CeVen prematurely. No clause in the contract that stipulates the pre-termination of the contract, you can request for compensation of your total projected income to 2019.
I also believe that the contract can be interpreted as "*Joint Venture*". CeVen did not subcontract you to develop software but to fill in a business gap. The challenge in this contract is the use of the word "*software*". Skunks, If you want to reduce the risk of such incidents use word like; *Solution or applications in place of software. *Software can easily be concluded to mean the product including the source code. Applications or solutions means whatever technology you use, as long as results is achieved.
You can create a business model and apply *function point analysis* to evaluate the cost of source code, then you re-value the software and 'do out of the court' settlement.
*"If you can create it,you can destroy it". Anonymous :)*
Regards, Isaac Kiplagat
Regards, Isaac On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');>> wrote:
Dear listers,
(Sorry for cross posting)
I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013.
After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app.
I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems.
<https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactionSpec.pdf>
We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server.
I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time.
All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests from the client and the vendors.
On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side.
On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza.
On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day.
I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client.
We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division.
In this case, who legally owns the software?
In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me.
If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me.
Regards, Erastus +254716165716
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke');> ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
No development fees were paid. I came in as their technology partner and my share for that was 20%. No documents was ever signed at all. no NDAs, contract or any other documents. On Feb 11, 2015 10:46 AM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Skunks are funny animals, they want brevity despite of their long tails. For the case of Erastus, details is very important and is a ideal case study to put in our long list of *Lessons Learnt*.
By the way, by posting this Erastus is violating NDA..
regards
On 11 February 2015 at 10:03, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
I was hoping this one would attract a lot of contributions I could glean from too. Especially from those with a legal background. Is the loud silence because discussing the matter might be sub-judice ?
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 11 February 2015 at 09:09, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Hi Erastus,
Contract was terminated by CeVen prematurely. No clause in the contract that stipulates the pre-termination of the contract, you can request for compensation of your total projected income to 2019.
I also believe that the contract can be interpreted as "*Joint Venture*". CeVen did not subcontract you to develop software but to fill in a business gap. The challenge in this contract is the use of the word "*software*". Skunks, If you want to reduce the risk of such incidents use word like; *Solution or applications in place of software. *Software can easily be concluded to mean the product including the source code. Applications or solutions means whatever technology you use, as long as results is achieved.
You can create a business model and apply *function point analysis* to evaluate the cost of source code, then you re-value the software and 'do out of the court' settlement.
*"If you can create it,you can destroy it". Anonymous :)*
Regards, Isaac Kiplagat
Regards, Isaac On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Dear listers,
(Sorry for cross posting)
I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013.
After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app.
I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems.
<https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactionSpec.pdf>
We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server.
I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time.
All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests from the client and the vendors.
On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side.
On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza.
On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day.
I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client.
We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division.
In this case, who legally owns the software?
In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me.
If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me.
Regards, Erastus +254716165716
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
if they own the software, why would i be the one to settle all technology related charges? On Feb 11, 2015 10:50 AM, "gisho" <gichuhie@gmail.com> wrote:
No development fees were paid. I came in as their technology partner and my share for that was 20%. No documents was ever signed at all. no NDAs, contract or any other documents. On Feb 11, 2015 10:46 AM, "Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Skunks are funny animals, they want brevity despite of their long tails. For the case of Erastus, details is very important and is a ideal case study to put in our long list of *Lessons Learnt*.
By the way, by posting this Erastus is violating NDA..
regards
On 11 February 2015 at 10:03, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
I was hoping this one would attract a lot of contributions I could glean from too. Especially from those with a legal background. Is the loud silence because discussing the matter might be sub-judice ?
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 11 February 2015 at 09:09, Isaac Kiplagat via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Hi Erastus,
Contract was terminated by CeVen prematurely. No clause in the contract that stipulates the pre-termination of the contract, you can request for compensation of your total projected income to 2019.
I also believe that the contract can be interpreted as "*Joint Venture*". CeVen did not subcontract you to develop software but to fill in a business gap. The challenge in this contract is the use of the word "*software*". Skunks, If you want to reduce the risk of such incidents use word like; *Solution or applications in place of software. *Software can easily be concluded to mean the product including the source code. Applications or solutions means whatever technology you use, as long as results is achieved.
You can create a business model and apply *function point analysis* to evaluate the cost of source code, then you re-value the software and 'do out of the court' settlement.
*"If you can create it,you can destroy it". Anonymous :)*
Regards, Isaac Kiplagat
Regards, Isaac On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Dear listers,
(Sorry for cross posting)
I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013.
After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app.
I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems.
<https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactionSpec.pdf>
We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server.
I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time.
All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests from the client and the vendors.
On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side.
On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza.
On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day.
I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client.
We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division.
In this case, who legally owns the software?
In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me.
If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me.
Regards, Erastus +254716165716
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Isaac Kiplagat. KIP®
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously "assumed". Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen? Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot the solution to your dispute.
Gisho, Do you mean there was no written agreement of whatever type? Even an email...which with a good lawyer can show intent? Minutes of meeting? Get as much documentation as possible to prove your contribution. Besides "helping you out" this should be a good case for all skunks involved in projects. Please keep us in the loop within the limits on law..court. Regards ........................................................... Josphat Karanja, PMP "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle *Blog: *http://mawazoyamkenya.blogspot.com/ On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick Kariuki via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously "assumed".
Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen?
Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot the solution to your dispute.
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
nothing written prio to June 2014. It was just a gentleman agreement. On Feb 11, 2015 12:38 PM, "Josphat Karanja" <karanjajf@gmail.com> wrote:
Gisho,
Do you mean there was no written agreement of whatever type?
Even an email...which with a good lawyer can show intent? Minutes of meeting?
Get as much documentation as possible to prove your contribution.
Besides "helping you out" this should be a good case for all skunks involved in projects.
Please keep us in the loop within the limits on law..court.
Regards ........................................................... Josphat Karanja, PMP
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
*Blog: *http://mawazoyamkenya.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick Kariuki via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously "assumed".
Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen?
Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot the solution to your dispute.
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Not even SMS or perhaps phone call logs showing that this was the negotiation phase, this was the part where they stopped paying and I started calling them repetitively? If worst comes to worst, *don't go to jail*. Give out the keys to the kingdom and work out a better solution that's cheaper or better that what your client is demanding. On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:58 PM, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
nothing written prio to June 2014. It was just a gentleman agreement. On Feb 11, 2015 12:38 PM, "Josphat Karanja" <karanjajf@gmail.com> wrote:
Gisho,
Do you mean there was no written agreement of whatever type?
Even an email...which with a good lawyer can show intent? Minutes of meeting?
Get as much documentation as possible to prove your contribution.
Besides "helping you out" this should be a good case for all skunks involved in projects.
Please keep us in the loop within the limits on law..court.
Regards ........................................................... Josphat Karanja, PMP
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
*Blog: *http://mawazoyamkenya.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick Kariuki via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously "assumed".
Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen?
Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot the solution to your dispute.
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
I have emails of the negotiation period and all the payments details. i worst comes i'll just give our the passwords. i have no issue with that. On Feb 11, 2015 1:31 PM, "Laban Mwangi" <lmwangi@gmail.com> wrote:
Not even SMS or perhaps phone call logs showing that this was the negotiation phase, this was the part where they stopped paying and I started calling them repetitively? If worst comes to worst, *don't go to jail*. Give out the keys to the kingdom and work out a better solution that's cheaper or better that what your client is demanding.
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:58 PM, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
nothing written prio to June 2014. It was just a gentleman agreement. On Feb 11, 2015 12:38 PM, "Josphat Karanja" <karanjajf@gmail.com> wrote:
Gisho,
Do you mean there was no written agreement of whatever type?
Even an email...which with a good lawyer can show intent? Minutes of meeting?
Get as much documentation as possible to prove your contribution.
Besides "helping you out" this should be a good case for all skunks involved in projects.
Please keep us in the loop within the limits on law..court.
Regards ........................................................... Josphat Karanja, PMP
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
*Blog: *http://mawazoyamkenya.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick Kariuki via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously "assumed".
Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen?
Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot the solution to your dispute.
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
And I hope the other party isn't on this list listening in .. -- Ndungi Kyalo On 11 February 2015 at 13:42, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I have emails of the negotiation period and all the payments details. i worst comes i'll just give our the passwords. i have no issue with that. On Feb 11, 2015 1:31 PM, "Laban Mwangi" <lmwangi@gmail.com> wrote:
Not even SMS or perhaps phone call logs showing that this was the negotiation phase, this was the part where they stopped paying and I started calling them repetitively? If worst comes to worst, *don't go to jail*. Give out the keys to the kingdom and work out a better solution that's cheaper or better that what your client is demanding.
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:58 PM, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
nothing written prio to June 2014. It was just a gentleman agreement. On Feb 11, 2015 12:38 PM, "Josphat Karanja" <karanjajf@gmail.com> wrote:
Gisho,
Do you mean there was no written agreement of whatever type?
Even an email...which with a good lawyer can show intent? Minutes of meeting?
Get as much documentation as possible to prove your contribution.
Besides "helping you out" this should be a good case for all skunks involved in projects.
Please keep us in the loop within the limits on law..court.
Regards ........................................................... Josphat Karanja, PMP
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
*Blog: *http://mawazoyamkenya.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick Kariuki via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously "assumed".
Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen?
Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot the solution to your dispute.
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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even if the other party was in here i would not worry since these are true facts which the other party hasn't denied in court apart from the ownership part. On Feb 11, 2015 1:57 PM, "Ndungi Kyalo" <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
And I hope the other party isn't on this list listening in ..
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 11 February 2015 at 13:42, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I have emails of the negotiation period and all the payments details. i worst comes i'll just give our the passwords. i have no issue with that. On Feb 11, 2015 1:31 PM, "Laban Mwangi" <lmwangi@gmail.com> wrote:
Not even SMS or perhaps phone call logs showing that this was the negotiation phase, this was the part where they stopped paying and I started calling them repetitively? If worst comes to worst, *don't go to jail*. Give out the keys to the kingdom and work out a better solution that's cheaper or better that what your client is demanding.
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:58 PM, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
nothing written prio to June 2014. It was just a gentleman agreement. On Feb 11, 2015 12:38 PM, "Josphat Karanja" <karanjajf@gmail.com> wrote:
Gisho,
Do you mean there was no written agreement of whatever type?
Even an email...which with a good lawyer can show intent? Minutes of meeting?
Get as much documentation as possible to prove your contribution.
Besides "helping you out" this should be a good case for all skunks involved in projects.
Please keep us in the loop within the limits on law..court.
Regards ........................................................... Josphat Karanja, PMP
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
*Blog: *http://mawazoyamkenya.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick Kariuki via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously "assumed".
Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen?
Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot the solution to your dispute.
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Gisho First if this matter is in Court and you are discussing it on this forum, you would probably be some trouble(contempt of sub-judice rule). Back to your recourse, 1. You need a good advocate who understands ICT, they are not so many. 2. You will need to have all your paper trail, ie physical evidence in place. Emails, receipts, contracts with ACCESSKENYA, 3. Coz you are the accused in a civil litigation, the burden of proof shifts to you and as such i think the most critical for you is to prove that you were not engaged as an in-house software developer with no claim on the product. 4. You have mentioned a 20% running compensation agreement, and claim that there's actual initial payment. You will need to prove receipt of that payment and it should represent 20% of the overall collection for the defined period. This will give weight to your claim. 5.You also mentioned costs incurred on the hosting, you will need to provide evidence of costs incurred by you as an independent party. You will need to provide invoices attributed to you from accesskenya. 6. Back to the development, you will need to provide evidence that the whole product development cycle is specifically attributed to you and that CeVen were nothing more than a spectator and a beneficiary with no direct involvement in the product cycle. The most expected line of accusation from CEVEN would be that you were a consultant engaged to provide a software and that you were compensated for your efforts. You have a tough case. I can propose you go for an out of court settlement, get a one off payment and agree on a maintenance contract for five years. while maintaining the software develop another software with hindsight and dont make same mistakes Sincerely, Jared Oyier On 11 February 2015 at 14:03, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
even if the other party was in here i would not worry since these are true facts which the other party hasn't denied in court apart from the ownership part. On Feb 11, 2015 1:57 PM, "Ndungi Kyalo" <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
And I hope the other party isn't on this list listening in ..
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 11 February 2015 at 13:42, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I have emails of the negotiation period and all the payments details. i worst comes i'll just give our the passwords. i have no issue with that. On Feb 11, 2015 1:31 PM, "Laban Mwangi" <lmwangi@gmail.com> wrote:
Not even SMS or perhaps phone call logs showing that this was the negotiation phase, this was the part where they stopped paying and I started calling them repetitively? If worst comes to worst, *don't go to jail*. Give out the keys to the kingdom and work out a better solution that's cheaper or better that what your client is demanding.
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:58 PM, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
nothing written prio to June 2014. It was just a gentleman agreement. On Feb 11, 2015 12:38 PM, "Josphat Karanja" <karanjajf@gmail.com> wrote:
Gisho,
Do you mean there was no written agreement of whatever type?
Even an email...which with a good lawyer can show intent? Minutes of meeting?
Get as much documentation as possible to prove your contribution.
Besides "helping you out" this should be a good case for all skunks involved in projects.
Please keep us in the loop within the limits on law..court.
Regards ........................................................... Josphat Karanja, PMP
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
*Blog: *http://mawazoyamkenya.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick Kariuki via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously > "assumed". > > Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and > grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen? > > Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot the > solution to your dispute. > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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Small world.. They contacted me in late 2011 to do initial network design and server setup although we couldn't agree on pay. One thing for sure is that they were well prepared even during that time (NDA's and lawyer stuff mentioned in all meetings). This was mainly due to the founders global experience (US?) and they seem to have foreseen IP conflicts so you are dealing with a company that has been well prepared for a while... On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:51 PM, Jared Koyier via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Gisho
First if this matter is in Court and you are discussing it on this forum, you would probably be some trouble(contempt of sub-judice rule). Back to your recourse, 1. You need a good advocate who understands ICT, they are not so many. 2. You will need to have all your paper trail, ie physical evidence in place. Emails, receipts, contracts with ACCESSKENYA, 3. Coz you are the accused in a civil litigation, the burden of proof shifts to you and as such i think the most critical for you is to prove that you were not engaged as an in-house software developer with no claim on the product. 4. You have mentioned a 20% running compensation agreement, and claim that there's actual initial payment. You will need to prove receipt of that payment and it should represent 20% of the overall collection for the defined period. This will give weight to your claim. 5.You also mentioned costs incurred on the hosting, you will need to provide evidence of costs incurred by you as an independent party. You will need to provide invoices attributed to you from accesskenya. 6. Back to the development, you will need to provide evidence that the whole product development cycle is specifically attributed to you and that CeVen were nothing more than a spectator and a beneficiary with no direct involvement in the product cycle.
The most expected line of accusation from CEVEN would be that you were a consultant engaged to provide a software and that you were compensated for your efforts.
You have a tough case. I can propose you go for an out of court settlement, get a one off payment and agree on a maintenance contract for five years. while maintaining the software develop another software with hindsight and dont make same mistakes
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 11 February 2015 at 14:03, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
even if the other party was in here i would not worry since these are true facts which the other party hasn't denied in court apart from the ownership part. On Feb 11, 2015 1:57 PM, "Ndungi Kyalo" <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
And I hope the other party isn't on this list listening in ..
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 11 February 2015 at 13:42, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I have emails of the negotiation period and all the payments details. i worst comes i'll just give our the passwords. i have no issue with that. On Feb 11, 2015 1:31 PM, "Laban Mwangi" <lmwangi@gmail.com> wrote:
Not even SMS or perhaps phone call logs showing that this was the negotiation phase, this was the part where they stopped paying and I started calling them repetitively? If worst comes to worst, *don't go to jail*. Give out the keys to the kingdom and work out a better solution that's cheaper or better that what your client is demanding.
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:58 PM, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
nothing written prio to June 2014. It was just a gentleman agreement. On Feb 11, 2015 12:38 PM, "Josphat Karanja" <karanjajf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gisho, > > Do you mean there was no written agreement of whatever type? > > Even an email...which with a good lawyer can show intent? Minutes of > meeting? > > Get as much documentation as possible to prove your contribution. > > Besides "helping you out" this should be a good case for all skunks > involved in projects. > > Please keep us in the loop within the limits on law..court. > > Regards > ........................................................... > Josphat Karanja, PMP > > "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but > a habit." - Aristotle > > *Blog: *http://mawazoyamkenya.blogspot.com/ > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick Kariuki via skunkworks < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously >> "assumed". >> >> Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and >> grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen? >> >> Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot >> the solution to your dispute. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > _______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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Yeah its a small world. On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 9:42 PM, Evans Owino via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Small world..
They contacted me in late 2011 to do initial network design and server setup although we couldn't agree on pay. One thing for sure is that they were well prepared even during that time (NDA's and lawyer stuff mentioned in all meetings). This was mainly due to the founders global experience (US?) and they seem to have foreseen IP conflicts so you are dealing with a company that has been well prepared for a while...
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:51 PM, Jared Koyier via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Gisho
First if this matter is in Court and you are discussing it on this forum, you would probably be some trouble(contempt of sub-judice rule). Back to your recourse, 1. You need a good advocate who understands ICT, they are not so many. 2. You will need to have all your paper trail, ie physical evidence in place. Emails, receipts, contracts with ACCESSKENYA, 3. Coz you are the accused in a civil litigation, the burden of proof shifts to you and as such i think the most critical for you is to prove that you were not engaged as an in-house software developer with no claim on the product. 4. You have mentioned a 20% running compensation agreement, and claim that there's actual initial payment. You will need to prove receipt of that payment and it should represent 20% of the overall collection for the defined period. This will give weight to your claim. 5.You also mentioned costs incurred on the hosting, you will need to provide evidence of costs incurred by you as an independent party. You will need to provide invoices attributed to you from accesskenya. 6. Back to the development, you will need to provide evidence that the whole product development cycle is specifically attributed to you and that CeVen were nothing more than a spectator and a beneficiary with no direct involvement in the product cycle.
The most expected line of accusation from CEVEN would be that you were a consultant engaged to provide a software and that you were compensated for your efforts.
You have a tough case. I can propose you go for an out of court settlement, get a one off payment and agree on a maintenance contract for five years. while maintaining the software develop another software with hindsight and dont make same mistakes
Sincerely, Jared Oyier
On 11 February 2015 at 14:03, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
even if the other party was in here i would not worry since these are true facts which the other party hasn't denied in court apart from the ownership part. On Feb 11, 2015 1:57 PM, "Ndungi Kyalo" <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
And I hope the other party isn't on this list listening in ..
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 11 February 2015 at 13:42, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I have emails of the negotiation period and all the payments details. i worst comes i'll just give our the passwords. i have no issue with that. On Feb 11, 2015 1:31 PM, "Laban Mwangi" <lmwangi@gmail.com> wrote:
Not even SMS or perhaps phone call logs showing that this was the negotiation phase, this was the part where they stopped paying and I started calling them repetitively? If worst comes to worst, *don't go to jail*. Give out the keys to the kingdom and work out a better solution that's cheaper or better that what your client is demanding.
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:58 PM, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> nothing written prio to June 2014. It was just a gentleman > agreement. > On Feb 11, 2015 12:38 PM, "Josphat Karanja" <karanjajf@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Gisho, >> >> Do you mean there was no written agreement of whatever type? >> >> Even an email...which with a good lawyer can show intent? Minutes >> of meeting? >> >> Get as much documentation as possible to prove your contribution. >> >> Besides "helping you out" this should be a good case for all skunks >> involved in projects. >> >> Please keep us in the loop within the limits on law..court. >> >> Regards >> ........................................................... >> Josphat Karanja, PMP >> >> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but >> a habit." - Aristotle >> >> *Blog: *http://mawazoyamkenya.blogspot.com/ >> >> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick Kariuki via skunkworks < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously >>> "assumed". >>> >>> Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and >>> grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen? >>> >>> Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot >>> the solution to your dispute. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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This is becoming a common scenario and as someone has pointed out we need to hear both sides of the story. I have a case where I referred a developer to a big company to build a solution for them. He signed a contract and was receiving salary monthly. While working at the customer site, and using all the technology and info he got from the customer, he worked on a solution to their problem locked the solution with a password and started demanding more money and a renegotiation otherwise he wasn't going to give the password. Having being pulled into this, I think developers need to be honest and understand that if you are paid by someone to develop some IP, that IP is not yours. Rushing to KECOBO to copyright it and blackmailing your employer will lead to lengthy court cases that you wouldn't win in the long run. The best thing to do is to protect your IP prior to signing any agreement with anyone. Most probably you need to be accompanied by your lawyer and have witnesses. Erastus i dont know all the details about your case but wish you all the best. Used your case to point out something I come across quite often. On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:42 PM, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I have emails of the negotiation period and all the payments details. i worst comes i'll just give our the passwords. i have no issue with that. On Feb 11, 2015 1:31 PM, "Laban Mwangi" <lmwangi@gmail.com> wrote:
Not even SMS or perhaps phone call logs showing that this was the negotiation phase, this was the part where they stopped paying and I started calling them repetitively? If worst comes to worst, *don't go to jail*. Give out the keys to the kingdom and work out a better solution that's cheaper or better that what your client is demanding.
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:58 PM, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
nothing written prio to June 2014. It was just a gentleman agreement. On Feb 11, 2015 12:38 PM, "Josphat Karanja" <karanjajf@gmail.com> wrote:
Gisho,
Do you mean there was no written agreement of whatever type?
Even an email...which with a good lawyer can show intent? Minutes of meeting?
Get as much documentation as possible to prove your contribution.
Besides "helping you out" this should be a good case for all skunks involved in projects.
Please keep us in the loop within the limits on law..court.
Regards ........................................................... Josphat Karanja, PMP
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
*Blog: *http://mawazoyamkenya.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick Kariuki via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdypxgHFwKg - You obviously "assumed".
Don't you wish you'd met Isaac or Jangita before shaking hands and grabbing a desk with the best view at CeVen?
Read what Isaac and Jangita have written down carefully and spot the solution to your dispute.
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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-- "Change is slow and gradual. It requires hardwork, a bit of luck, a fair amount of self-sacrifice and a lot of patience." Roy.
First, don't miss going to court :) My thoughts, as I have been involved in several such "software ownership" wrangles. Basically the objective is to prove what intellectual property is yours and what is theirs. They will probably say we came up with the business processes and paid the developer to write it for us. In that case you got paid to do a job which you did. It ends up being the companies. It is like someone coming up with the blue print to some device then sending it to china to be built and paying the Chinese. In this case the Chinese do not own it and were paid to build it. So if they have a full spec sheet which they came up with and you developed to the letter and agreed to be paid for it then it will be a hard one. BUT: You can own part of it if you were not paid for developing it; you therefore own the share equivalent to the to the "sweat" you put in. What the sweat is worth is debatable, but I'd go 50:50 - you can do it the professional way of getting KPMG to see what it is worth to build it vs what it is worth to come up with the idea - they'd probably also go 50:50 If you were paid to develop it, but were also involved in conceptualising it; part of your IP is in the software. As to what your part is worth is also grey and debatable. When it gets heavy, I usually let them have it and grab what I can on payments, and give them the source code. Being a developer you can always build another one, this time with the proper database table structures that you've always wanted to change :) - in the end a car is a car, and many companies build the same thing; but with different technologies. Also, trust me, the system will die a natural death if the original developers are not there, and new requests, edits, upgrades are not easy to implement on someone else's code (unless of course they hire your team). Also if the software is highly specialised, you probably won't be able to on sell it to another client, but you will always have the "i developed this" on your CV. If they manage to take it and come back for a support contract; you can hit them on that. If they were clever; they'd go the 50:50 route; open a separate company with equal shareholding; then move the IP there and on sell to themselves and competitors and use the data to their advantage ;) they can always justify the fees they paid you initially. I'd like to know how the court case goes. They seem to be quite connected tho. Good luck :) You might also want to release it as opensource before you go to jail .... My two cents... ᐧ On 11 February 2015 at 01:30, gisho via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Dear listers,
(Sorry for cross posting)
I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013.
After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app.
I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems.
<https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactionSpec.pdf>
We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server.
I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time.
All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests from the client and the vendors.
On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side.
On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza.
On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day.
I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client.
We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division.
In this case, who legally owns the software?
In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me.
If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me.
Regards, Erastus +254716165716
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participants (12)
-
Evans Owino -
gisho -
Isaac Kiplagat -
Jangita Nyagudi -
Jared Koyier -
Joseph Tintale -
Josphat Karanja -
Laban Mwangi -
Mwendwa Kivuva -
Ndungi Kyalo -
Patrick Kariuki -
Paul Roy