Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...?
Then has Kenya been always a failed state? If we are a failed state now, when have we not been a failed state? Kenya might have it's issues but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a failed State. I think a better term is failed institutions, not because of lack of rules and regulations but because of lack of people with vision and integrity. So there's a thin line here. And if Kenya is a failed state then I would say that it's Kenyans who have failed it. The State is fine but most Kenyans have failed to do what is right for their country. One of the most sorry things I come across are young people with myopic vision. They sit and wait for things to improve. They can't even clean their environment, things that only cost effort not money. A second thing is fear. Most Kenyans I have seen are not bold enough to take the right action. They're still looking over their shoulders to check whether there are people who have their back. Suprisingly they are bold when doing the wrong things! China will come and construct our roads coz they are bold and they know the world is their's for the taking. O_O --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com> wrote: From: Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...? To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 9:08 AM I have always maintained that we are surely a failed state. The minute we realize this, then we can wake up and do something about it, but when we continue arguing whether we are a failed state or not, we will remain a failed state. The definition is a country with the following characteristics: loss of physical control of its territory, or of the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force therein (YES) erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions, (YES) an inability to provide reasonable public services, and (YES) an inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community. (Maybe) So we have 3outof4 outright YES, unless someone can give a NO and provide proof. ./Ok3ch On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 6:55 AM, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote: True, caring about others' opinions is a natural response, but not necessarily a helpful one. Again I ask, so what if Tz, Ug, Rw etc notice? As long as we're doing our thing, and doing it right, then "they" can't "capitalise" on "it". Unfortunately, and this has been my observation for a very long time, Kenyans are too prickly and thin-skinned. We spend way too much time glancing at our neighbours' reactions than on putting out the flames right on our front doorstep. We also spend way too little time taking stock of our strengths and maximizing that. Just being successful isn't a recipe for being liked either, you may get more envy than approval. In short, human approval/disapproval is an inexact science, if a science at all. You're better of spending your scarce resources doing the right thing, whatever that may be for you. On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote: Saidimu, I will stick my neck out and tell u that it doesn't work that way. Contrary to popular belief, we all care what others think. And Kenya does not live in a vacuum. Its global times we live in and when it is reported that Kenya is a failed state, countries like Tz, ug, rw, etc will notice. And will try to capitalise on it. Meanwhile we bury our heads in the comfort of familiarity because "it works". I cant say I knw how exactly it will affect me. But I am sure you and I will notice the effect(s). Whether or not we acknowledge it is a whole different story On 7/6/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
How about this: forget about what others think of your country.
The question is: is it working for you? If it isn't, fix it. If it is, who cares what others think?
On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Solomon Mburu <solo.mburu@gmail.com> wrote:
Listers,
I was just going through the Foreign Policy <http://www.foreignpolicy.com>website and in their current newsletter, Failed state Index<http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/06/22/the_2009_failed_states_index>Kenya
is considered as one of the Failed States. Then according to Wikipaedia (Failed States Index<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Failed_States_Index>)
Kenya is a country on the verge of being considered a failed state, actually, we are placed on the alert level
I wonder how much patriotic we can to change this state of event!
-- Solomon Mburu P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041
Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will graze all the same way to the side of a hill!
AND
It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous generosity!
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I think its easy for us on this forum to say that kenya is not a failed state. Thats because for us its NOT.However for a majority of Kenyans it is. The fact that you are reading this means that you are among the previledged of the country(even though you feel like a poor hustler) .for the Guy who has to chose between 20 bob fare and dinner for his 4 kids... its a totally different story. For him the government does not supply any services whatsoever or create an enabling environment. He has to fear thugs or be protected by Mungiki and pay for it-or other equivalent vigilantes(where are the police for him?Guarding the MPs?). For the poor kenyan it doesnt matter what the rest of the world thinks,it doesnt even matter what the Middle class(AKA us guys) think. For him things are just not working. There is something we can all do but its not easy. It takes a revolution or lots of patience and jipangaring in the meantime and for the brave trying to do something about it and having minimal impact that makes a difference to a few here and there. Im not sure where ill be after voting in 2012. Might just skip the border and watch what happens from a safe distance(at least i have the fare to reach arusha,most kenyans dont) . After all si its a jipangaring state? Every man for himself and the goverment for the MPs and the rich? On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 1:03 PM, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>wrote:
Then has Kenya been always a failed state? If we are a failed state now, when have we not been a failed state?
Kenya might have it's issues but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a failed State. I think a better term is failed institutions, not because of lack of rules and regulations but because of lack of people with vision and integrity. So there's a thin line here.
And if Kenya is a failed state then I would say that it's Kenyans who have failed it. The State is fine but most Kenyans have failed to do what is right for their country.
One of the most sorry things I come across are young people with myopic vision. They sit and wait for things to improve. They can't even clean their environment, things that only cost effort not money.
A second thing is fear. Most Kenyans I have seen are not bold enough to take the right action. They're still looking over their shoulders to check whether there are people who have their back. Suprisingly they are bold when doing the wrong things! China will come and construct our roads coz they are bold and they know the world is their's for the taking.
O_O
--- On *Tue, 7/7/09, Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com>* wrote:
From: Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...? To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 9:08 AM
I have always maintained that we are surely a failed state. The minute we realize this, then we can wake up and do something about it, but when we continue arguing whether we are a failed state or not, we will remain a failed state. The definition is a country with the following characteristics:
- loss of physical control of its territory, or of the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence>therein (YES) - erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions, (YES) - an inability to provide reasonable public services, and (YES) - an inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_community>. (Maybe)
So we have 3outof4 outright YES, unless someone can give a NO and provide proof.
./Ok3ch
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 6:55 AM, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com<http://us.mc347.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saidimu@gmail.com>
wrote:
True, caring about others' opinions is a natural response, but not necessarily a helpful one.
Again I ask, so what if Tz, Ug, Rw etc notice? As long as we're doing our thing, and doing it right, then "they" can't "capitalise" on "it".
Unfortunately, and this has been my observation for a very long time, Kenyans are too prickly and thin-skinned. We spend way too much time glancing at our neighbours' reactions than on putting out the flames right on our front doorstep. We also spend way too little time taking stock of our strengths and maximizing that.
Just being successful isn't a recipe for being liked either, you may get more envy than approval.
In short, human approval/disapproval is an inexact science, if a science at all. You're better of spending your scarce resources doing the right thing, whatever that may be for you.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com<http://us.mc347.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=techlistkenya@gmail.com>
wrote:
Saidimu, I will stick my neck out and tell u that it doesn't work that way. Contrary to popular belief, we all care what others think. And Kenya does not live in a vacuum. Its global times we live in and when it is reported that Kenya is a failed state, countries like Tz, ug, rw, etc will notice. And will try to capitalise on it. Meanwhile we bury our heads in the comfort of familiarity because "it works". I cant say I knw how exactly it will affect me. But I am sure you and I will notice the effect(s). Whether or not we acknowledge it is a whole different story
On 7/6/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com<http://us.mc347.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=saidimu@gmail.com>> wrote:
How about this: forget about what others think of your country.
The question is: is it working for you? If it isn't, fix it. If it is, who cares what others think?
On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Solomon Mburu <solo.mburu@gmail.com<http://us.mc347.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=solo.mburu@gmail.com>> wrote:
Listers,
I was just going through the Foreign Policy <http://www.foreignpolicy.com>website and in their current newsletter, Failed state Index< http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/06/22/the_2009_failed_states_inde... Kenya is considered as one of the Failed States. Then according to Wikipaedia (Failed States Index< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Failed_States_Index>) Kenya is a country on the verge of being considered a failed state, actually, we are placed on the alert level
I wonder how much patriotic we can to change this state of event!
-- Solomon Mburu P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041
Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will graze all the same way to the side of a hill!
AND
It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous generosity!
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-- Sent from my Voice Recognition Watch© -------------------------------------------------------------------- God is not an excuse for lack of discipline -------------------------------------------------------------------- Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,but that we are powerful beyond measure.It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.As we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear,our presence automatically liberates others.
Perhaps someone needs to help me out: what is a failed state? In definition that is. -----Original Message----- From: Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:07:50 To: Skunkworks forum<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...? _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Skunkworks announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi - http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
Kags: Failed state: When a state's government cannot honor the social contract as defined by John Locke. A state is considered to have list its right to sovereignty/ govern itself if it cannot ensure the fundamental human rights of its citizens as defines in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The phasing is commonly applied (or misused...potayto - potato) if it cannot ensure the security of its citizens. On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Al Kags <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps someone needs to help me out: what is a failed state? In definition that is.
-----Original Message----- From: Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:07:50 To: Skunkworks forum<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...?
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A failed state is the State of Kenya, and Somalia, and Sudan, and Iraq. Unfailed states are Norway, Tanzania and so on. Check the list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Failed_States_Index On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Al Kags <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps someone needs to help me out: what is a failed state? In definition that is.
-----Original Message----- From: Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:07:50 To: Skunkworks forum<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...?
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On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Al Kags <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps someone needs to help me out: what is a failed state? In definition that is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state
-----Original Message----- From: Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:07:50 To: Skunkworks forum<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...?
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Maybe This will help. I'm Gonna Make A Change, For Once In My Life It's Gonna Feel Real Good, Gonna Make A Difference Gonna Make It Right . . . As I, Turn Up The Collar On My Favourite Winter Coat This Wind Is Blowin' My Mind I See The Kids In The Street, With Not Enough To Eat Who Am I, To Be Blind? Pretending Not To See Their Needs A Summer's Disregard, A Broken Bottle Top And A One Man's Soul They Follow Each Other On The Wind Ya' Know 'Cause They Got Nowhere To Go That's Why I Want You To Know I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways And No Message Could Have Been Any Clearer If You Wanna Make The World A Better PlaceI Take A Look At Yourself, And Then Make A Change Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:26 PM, "Al Kags" <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps someone needs to help me out: what is a failed state? In definition that is.
-----Original Message----- From: Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:07:50 To: Skunkworks forum<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...?
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We can say these all our lives but won't change even a bit. We need to put structures in place to go beyond personalities, then things will start working. Moving out of this state reqiuires political goodwill which doesn't seem to be anywhere in sight. ./Ok3ch On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Rahim Kara <rahim@applecentre.co.ke> wrote:
Maybe This will help.
I'm Gonna Make A Change, For Once In My Life It's Gonna Feel Real Good, Gonna Make A Difference Gonna Make It Right . . .
As I, Turn Up The Collar On My Favourite Winter Coat This Wind Is Blowin' My Mind I See The Kids In The Street, With Not Enough To Eat Who Am I, To Be Blind? Pretending Not To See Their Needs A Summer's Disregard, A Broken Bottle Top And A One Man's Soul They Follow Each Other On The Wind Ya' Know 'Cause They Got Nowhere To Go That's Why I Want You To Know
I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways And No Message Could Have Been Any Clearer If You Wanna Make The World A Better PlaceI Take A Look At Yourself, And Then Make A Change
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:26 PM, "Al Kags" <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps someone needs to help me out: what is a failed state? In definition that is.
-----Original Message----- From: Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:07:50 To: Skunkworks forum<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...?
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My take is we need leaders who are committed to changing the course of this country. Some of the question i used to ask myself were; 1. Do the leaders we have ever go into government to achieve anything for the country between elections. Or simply to take care of their own selfish needs and especially wealth creation? 2. Do the leaders we have want the status quo to change e.g. Impunity, Corruption etc when it really appears to favor their selfish needs? 3. Are the leaders we have in government really in power or are they just art figures e.g how the late Akasha used to handle the police bosses, leaders suspected to be involved in illegal activities yet they remain in position or get promotions after they get mentioned for involvement etc? .... I don't think policies and politics can replace leadership qualities, for instance, courage, goodwill towards the people you represent and many more. I can only be glad for the few good leaders who know what they are doing. But i stopped myself these questions :-) R D On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com> wrote:
We can say these all our lives but won't change even a bit. We need to put structures in place to go beyond personalities, then things will start working. Moving out of this state reqiuires political goodwill which doesn't seem to be anywhere in sight. ./Ok3ch
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Rahim Kara <rahim@applecentre.co.ke>wrote:
Maybe This will help.
I'm Gonna Make A Change, For Once In My Life It's Gonna Feel Real Good, Gonna Make A Difference Gonna Make It Right . . .
As I, Turn Up The Collar On My Favourite Winter Coat This Wind Is Blowin' My Mind I See The Kids In The Street, With Not Enough To Eat Who Am I, To Be Blind? Pretending Not To See Their Needs A Summer's Disregard, A Broken Bottle Top And A One Man's Soul They Follow Each Other On The Wind Ya' Know 'Cause They Got Nowhere To Go That's Why I Want You To Know
I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways And No Message Could Have Been Any Clearer If You Wanna Make The World A Better PlaceI Take A Look At Yourself, And Then Make A Change
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:26 PM, "Al Kags" <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps someone needs to help me out: what is a failed state? In definition that is.
-----Original Message----- From: Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:07:50 To: Skunkworks forum<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...?
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That reminds me, why do we need a new constitution yet we dont respect the existing one? How will it be any different? We need to start doing things differently. As someone said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results On 7/7/09, Denis G. Wahome <dwahome@gmail.com> wrote:
My take is we need leaders who are committed to changing the course of this country. Some of the question i used to ask myself were;
1. Do the leaders we have ever go into government to achieve anything for the country between elections. Or simply to take care of their own selfish needs and especially wealth creation?
2. Do the leaders we have want the status quo to change e.g. Impunity, Corruption etc when it really appears to favor their selfish needs?
3. Are the leaders we have in government really in power or are they just art figures e.g how the late Akasha used to handle the police bosses, leaders suspected to be involved in illegal activities yet they remain in position or get promotions after they get mentioned for involvement etc?
....
I don't think policies and politics can replace leadership qualities, for instance, courage, goodwill towards the people you represent and many more. I can only be glad for the few good leaders who know what they are doing.
But i stopped myself these questions :-)
R
D
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com> wrote:
We can say these all our lives but won't change even a bit. We need to put structures in place to go beyond personalities, then things will start working. Moving out of this state reqiuires political goodwill which doesn't seem to be anywhere in sight. ./Ok3ch
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Rahim Kara <rahim@applecentre.co.ke>wrote:
Maybe This will help.
I'm Gonna Make A Change, For Once In My Life It's Gonna Feel Real Good, Gonna Make A Difference Gonna Make It Right . . .
As I, Turn Up The Collar On My Favourite Winter Coat This Wind Is Blowin' My Mind I See The Kids In The Street, With Not Enough To Eat Who Am I, To Be Blind? Pretending Not To See Their Needs A Summer's Disregard, A Broken Bottle Top And A One Man's Soul They Follow Each Other On The Wind Ya' Know 'Cause They Got Nowhere To Go That's Why I Want You To Know
I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways And No Message Could Have Been Any Clearer If You Wanna Make The World A Better PlaceI Take A Look At Yourself, And Then Make A Change
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:26 PM, "Al Kags" <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps someone needs to help me out: what is a failed state? In definition that is.
-----Original Message----- From: Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:07:50 To: Skunkworks forum<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...?
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Hi, my novice and short opinion. Please feel free to correct as necessary :-) Is kenya a failed state ? : look around you, see how kenyans live. Mud shacks and polythene homes, water shortages for many years, power cuts, insecurity, food shortages, industry collapse, power games etc and short cut solutions to issues. I cannot say we have completely failed but have somehow managed to survive. What are kenya's problems ? : the main are corruption, poverty, greed and impunity as other have mentioned. It has nothing to do with govt. It is a culture that has been acceptable for too long, passing on generation to generation. A simple example : Observe how matatu operators ( ordinary kenyans, not top govt officials ) drive around, complete abuse of any law that would govern sanity. The road belongs to them. I can remember this as far as the early 1970's, nothing much has changed. Corruption claims were rife also then as now. Where does kenya's problem lie ? In its colonial past and the world stage. We inherited a strange thinking system from the colonial era. At this time and the next 35 years or so , the world itself was going through some strange periods i.e cold war which produced certain corruption, dictator mentalities and thuggish approaches. ( Look at some eastern European countries, they are worse off then kenya ). read about Mobutu seseseko, the first ever to try and build a nuclear station in congo, somewhere near his rural home palace. What is kenya's solution ? : The first and foremost has to be a change in culture of how things are done. Kenya needs a complete overhaul of its thinking and where it wants to go. without this, no matter how many govts we change, it will make little or no difference. Part of this problem lies in centralised control of resources, governance. If you just drive 60kms from nairobi, you are in rural kenya. Who will help kenya attain Uhuru from itself, break away from all that has slowed it down, change its thinking ? The generations that are in school now but going by Daily Nation's headline today, it maybe a long wait. The answers are there. The leaders are there. Unfortunately there are no short term answers or quick fixes.
I was just looking at the wikipedia list and kenya was the biggest winner in terms of decline for the past three years, 12 ranks to number 14.Well they think it's a failed state, but deep in every kenyan we know that is failing state and it is not too late too change.The sages say that charity begins at home.Change yourself before thinking of changing your friend, boarding and staying in a matatu that drives on the wrong side of the road just because you want to beat traffic and go to jobo early and not saying anything will not change that matatu driver's way of driving.Anyway, this forum as i have seen has some bright geeks/techies, haven't seen a kenyan website that deals with our problems(correct if i am wrong) directly, all i see is social networking websites,entertainment websites(I am not saying these are wrong).All i am saying let us have a way to revolution 2.0 style, a website strictly non-profit that puts the spotlight over kenyan people.I am suggesting of website like debate graph <http://debategraph.org>, whereby people come together and debate on things that are happening over the world. But this web site shudn't be just debates with no fruit bearing but to find solutions to our problems.Well i just had a look at number of facebook users in kenya, they are at 150,000 and growing. Imagine if we had people close to this amount that are specifically just looking at our issues trying to find solutions to our problems, instead of just making friends and chatting(of which i am not against again) but to put them into hard work and finding solutions before 2012(God help us).Think about it and you look back and say "atleast we have tried" Think about it.... On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 8:54 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
Hi, my novice and short opinion. Please feel free to correct as necessary :-)
Is kenya a failed state ? : look around you, see how kenyans live. Mud shacks and polythene homes, water shortages for many years, power cuts, insecurity, food shortages, industry collapse, power games etc and short cut solutions to issues. I cannot say we have completely failed but have somehow managed to survive.
What are kenya's problems ? : the main are corruption, poverty, greed and impunity as other have mentioned. It has nothing to do with govt. It is a culture that has been acceptable for too long, passing on generation to generation.
A simple example : Observe how matatu operators ( ordinary kenyans, not top govt officials ) drive around, complete abuse of any law that would govern sanity. The road belongs to them. I can remember this as far as the early 1970's, nothing much has changed. Corruption claims were rife also then as now.
Where does kenya's problem lie ? In its colonial past and the world stage. We inherited a strange thinking system from the colonial era. At this time and the next 35 years or so , the world itself was going through some strange periods i.e cold war which produced certain corruption, dictator mentalities and thuggish approaches. ( Look at some eastern European countries, they are worse off then kenya ). read about Mobutu seseseko, the first ever to try and build a nuclear station in congo, somewhere near his rural home palace.
What is kenya's solution ? : The first and foremost has to be a change in culture of how things are done. Kenya needs a complete overhaul of its thinking and where it wants to go. without this, no matter how many govts we change, it will make little or no difference. Part of this problem lies in centralised control of resources, governance. If you just drive 60kms from nairobi, you are in rural kenya.
Who will help kenya attain Uhuru from itself, break away from all that has slowed it down, change its thinking ? The generations that are in school now but going by Daily Nation's headline today, it maybe a long wait. The answers are there. The leaders are there. Unfortunately there are no short term answers or quick fixes.
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What can we learn from history? Kenya is not unique in the situation it finds herself in. "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." -- George Santayana On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Jamal Mohamed <jamal.worx@gmail.com> wrote:
I was just looking at the wikipedia list and kenya was the biggest winner in terms of decline for the past three years, 12 ranks to number 14.Well they think it's a failed state, but deep in every kenyan we know that is failing state and it is not too late too change.The sages say that charity begins at home.Change yourself before thinking of changing your friend, boarding and staying in a matatu that drives on the wrong side of the road just because you want to beat traffic and go to jobo early and not saying anything will not change that matatu driver's way of driving.Anyway, this forum as i have seen has some bright geeks/techies, haven't seen a kenyan website that deals with our problems(correct if i am wrong) directly, all i see is social networking websites,entertainment websites(I am not saying these are wrong).All i am saying let us have a way to revolution 2.0 style, a website strictly non-profit that puts the spotlight over kenyan people.I am suggesting of website like debate graph <http://debategraph.org>, whereby people come together and debate on things that are happening over the world.
But this web site shudn't be just debates with no fruit bearing but to find solutions to our problems.Well i just had a look at number of facebook users in kenya, they are at 150,000 and growing. Imagine if we had people close to this amount that are specifically just looking at our issues trying to find solutions to our problems, instead of just making friends and chatting(of which i am not against again) but to put them into hard work and finding solutions before 2012(God help us).Think about it and you look back and say "atleast we have tried"
Think about it....
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 8:54 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
Hi, my novice and short opinion. Please feel free to correct as necessary :-)
Is kenya a failed state ? : look around you, see how kenyans live. Mud shacks and polythene homes, water shortages for many years, power cuts, insecurity, food shortages, industry collapse, power games etc and short cut solutions to issues. I cannot say we have completely failed but have somehow managed to survive.
What are kenya's problems ? : the main are corruption, poverty, greed and impunity as other have mentioned. It has nothing to do with govt. It is a culture that has been acceptable for too long, passing on generation to generation.
A simple example : Observe how matatu operators ( ordinary kenyans, not top govt officials ) drive around, complete abuse of any law that would govern sanity. The road belongs to them. I can remember this as far as the early 1970's, nothing much has changed. Corruption claims were rife also then as now.
Where does kenya's problem lie ? In its colonial past and the world stage. We inherited a strange thinking system from the colonial era. At this time and the next 35 years or so , the world itself was going through some strange periods i.e cold war which produced certain corruption, dictator mentalities and thuggish approaches. ( Look at some eastern European countries, they are worse off then kenya ). read about Mobutu seseseko, the first ever to try and build a nuclear station in congo, somewhere near his rural home palace.
What is kenya's solution ? : The first and foremost has to be a change in culture of how things are done. Kenya needs a complete overhaul of its thinking and where it wants to go. without this, no matter how many govts we change, it will make little or no difference. Part of this problem lies in centralised control of resources, governance. If you just drive 60kms from nairobi, you are in rural kenya.
Who will help kenya attain Uhuru from itself, break away from all that has slowed it down, change its thinking ? The generations that are in school now but going by Daily Nation's headline today, it maybe a long wait. The answers are there. The leaders are there. Unfortunately there are no short term answers or quick fixes.
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@Jamal, my apology for the shallow Matatu example. Though I did not want to elaborate more, but if someone wants to do a thesis on impunity deeply embedded in our colonial era inherited thinking, they need not look far. It has nothing to do with a passenger nor greed to make money on the matatu driver's part. It forms a strong part of input data carried forward into 2nd, 3rd or 4 th generations ( what will the law do to me? ) and as you know, nothing changed. When you drive your car the next time, just observe.
I don't think policies and politics can replace leadership qualities, for instance, courage, goodwill towards the people you represent and many more. I can only be glad for the few good leaders who know what they are doing.
Look at South Africa for example - they have Zuma for a leader yet nothing goes wrong, why? because they have structures in place and it doesn't matter who is at the helm of leadership - structures first, before leadership qualities ./Ok3ch
But i stopped myself these questions :-)
R
D
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com> wrote:
We can say these all our lives but won't change even a bit. We need to put structures in place to go beyond personalities, then things will start working. Moving out of this state reqiuires political goodwill which doesn't seem to be anywhere in sight. ./Ok3ch
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Rahim Kara <rahim@applecentre.co.ke>wrote:
Maybe This will help.
I'm Gonna Make A Change, For Once In My Life It's Gonna Feel Real Good, Gonna Make A Difference Gonna Make It Right . . .
As I, Turn Up The Collar On My Favourite Winter Coat This Wind Is Blowin' My Mind I See The Kids In The Street, With Not Enough To Eat Who Am I, To Be Blind? Pretending Not To See Their Needs A Summer's Disregard, A Broken Bottle Top And A One Man's Soul They Follow Each Other On The Wind Ya' Know 'Cause They Got Nowhere To Go That's Why I Want You To Know
I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways And No Message Could Have Been Any Clearer If You Wanna Make The World A Better PlaceI Take A Look At Yourself, And Then Make A Change
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:26 PM, "Al Kags" <alkags@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps someone needs to help me out: what is a failed state? In definition that is.
-----Original Message----- From: Joram Mwinamo <joram.mwinamo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:07:50 To: Skunkworks forum<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...?
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wesley We cannot clean for you the environment when we have paid 4 it to be cleaned. Its like telling me that I should go to the newspaper stand while I have paid for subscription and delivery. Myopic is he who thinks that Kenyans are stupid and the uprising wont be contained by massive arming of APs nor building of police posts in every corner On 7/7/09, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Then has Kenya been always a failed state? If we are a failed state now, when have we not been a failed state?
Kenya might have it's issues but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a failed State. I think a better term is failed institutions, not because of lack of rules and regulations but because of lack of people with vision and integrity. So there's a thin line here.
And if Kenya is a failed state then I would say that it's Kenyans who have failed it. The State is fine but most Kenyans have failed to do what is right for their country.
One of the most sorry things I come across are young people with myopic vision. They sit and wait for things to improve. They can't even clean their environment, things that only cost effort not money.
A second thing is fear. Most Kenyans I have seen are not bold enough to take the right action. They're still looking over their shoulders to check whether there are people who have their back. Suprisingly they are bold when doing the wrong things! China will come and construct our roads coz they are bold and they know the world is their's for the taking. O_O
--- On Tue, 7/7/09, Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] OUT-OF-TOPIC: Kenya a Failed State...? To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 9:08 AM
I have always maintained that we are surely a failed state. The minute we realize this, then we can wake up and do something about it, but when we continue arguing whether we are a failed state or not, we will remain a failed state. The definition is a country with the following characteristics:
loss of physical control of its territory, or of the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force therein (YES)
erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions, (YES)
an inability to provide reasonable public services, and (YES)
an inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community. (Maybe)
So we have 3outof4 outright YES, unless someone can give a NO and provide proof.
./Ok3ch
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 6:55 AM, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
True, caring about others' opinions is a natural response, but not necessarily a helpful one.
Again I ask, so what if Tz, Ug, Rw etc notice? As long as we're doing our thing, and doing it right, then "they" can't "capitalise" on "it".
Unfortunately, and this has been my observation for a very long time, Kenyans are too prickly and thin-skinned. We spend way too much time glancing at our neighbours' reactions than on putting out the flames right on our front doorstep. We also spend way too little time taking stock of our strengths and maximizing that.
Just being successful isn't a recipe for being liked either, you may get more envy than approval.
In short, human approval/disapproval is an inexact science, if a science at all. You're better of spending your scarce resources doing the right thing, whatever that may be for you.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
Saidimu, I will stick my neck out and tell u that it doesn't work that way. Contrary to popular belief, we all care what others think. And Kenya does not live in a vacuum. Its global times we live in and when it is reported that Kenya is a failed state, countries like Tz, ug, rw, etc will notice. And will try to capitalise on it. Meanwhile we bury our heads in the comfort of familiarity because "it works". I cant say I knw how exactly it will affect me. But I am sure you and I will notice the effect(s). Whether or not we acknowledge it is a whole different story
On 7/6/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
How about this: forget about what others think of your country.
The question is: is it working for you? If it isn't, fix it. If it is, who cares what others think?
On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Solomon Mburu <solo.mburu@gmail.com> wrote:
Listers,
I was just going through the Foreign Policy <http://www.foreignpolicy.com>website and in their current newsletter, Failed state Index<http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/06/22/the_2009_failed_states_index>Kenya
is considered as one of the Failed States. Then according to Wikipaedia (Failed States Index<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Failed_States_Index>)
Kenya is a country on the verge of being considered a failed state, actually, we are placed on the alert level
I wonder how much patriotic we can to change this state of event!
-- Solomon Mburu P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041
Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will graze all the same way to the side of a hill!
AND
It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous generosity!
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participants (13)
-
aki -
Al Kags -
Denis G. Wahome -
Jamal Mohamed -
Joram Mwinamo -
judith mulinge -
mike oketch -
Okechukwu -
Philip Musyoki -
Rahim Kara -
saidimu apale -
Tech List Kenya -
wesley kiriinya