What's the difference between accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set randomly?
Or, for that matter, a randomized set sequentially On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:04 PM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>wrote:
What's the difference between accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set randomly?
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Touché --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote: From: Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] random sampling To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 1:07 PM Or, for that matter, a randomized set sequentially On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:04 PM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote: What's the difference between accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set randomly? _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AopdHkqSqKL-dHlQVTMxU1VBdU1BSWJxdy1f... ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AopdHkqSqKL-dHlQVTMxU1VBdU1BSWJxdy1f... ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
Hi Wesley/ Rad, How about this:
Or, for that matter, a randomized set sequentially
You get a sequential set of random values.
sorted set randomly
You get a random value set with a high likelihood of some sortedness :-).
randomized set randomly?
Everything is random. Caveat: No scientific basis to my observations :-). KR, Loki "Excellent people exceed expectations". ________________________________ From: Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> To: Skunkworks Forum <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Fri, January 22, 2010 2:07:11 PM Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] random sampling Or, for that matter, a randomized set sequentially On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:04 PM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote: What's the difference between accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set randomly?
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I actually doubt there is any difference in any of the three scenarios. A - [1,2,3,4,5] B - [5,1,4,2,3] Given one pass to access each set, accessing set A randomly for values should give you results just as random as accessing set B regardless if randomly or in sequence On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Nicholas Loki <lokimwenga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Wesley/ Rad, How about this:
Or, for that matter, a randomized set sequentially
You get a sequential set of random values.
sorted set randomly
You get a random value set with a high likelihood of some sortedness :-).
randomized set randomly?
Everything is random.
Caveat: No scientific basis to my observations :-).
KR, Loki
"Excellent people exceed expectations".
I've noticed a difference between accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set randomly. I've not checked accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set sequentially. NB: I always re-seed the random number generator with unique values (i.e. I dont repeat the seed value) before each random call. A sound math/statistical explanation would be 8~) --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote: From: Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] random sampling To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 1:23 PM I actually doubt there is any difference in any of the three scenarios. A - [1,2,3,4,5] B - [5,1,4,2,3] Given one pass to access each set, accessing set A randomly for values should give you results just as random as accessing set B regardless if randomly or in sequence On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Nicholas Loki <lokimwenga@yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Wesley/ Rad, How about this:
Or, for that matter, a randomized set sequentially
You get a sequential set of random values.
sorted set randomly
You get a random value set with a high likelihood of some sortedness :-).
randomized set randomly?
Everything is random. Caveat: No scientific basis to my observations :-). KR, Loki "Excellent people exceed expectations". -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AopdHkqSqKL-dHlQVTMxU1VBdU1BSWJxdy1f... ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
It should be pretty straightforward to prove using probability. But before we get there let's use a different analogy. Say you have a pack of cards. If you shuffle the pack thoroughly and then pick out cards at random, the randomness of the picked cards is just as random as if you shuffled the pack twice before picking the cards. Shuffling already random cards again does not introduce, for lack of a better word, 'more randomness' Ergo given a randomized set [1,5,2,4,3] So *for a single run *If you pop the elements in sequence, the result will be as random as popping them at random. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 3:51 PM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>wrote:
I've noticed a difference between accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set randomly. I've not checked accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set sequentially.
NB: I always re-seed the random number generator with unique values (i.e. I dont repeat the seed value) before each random call.
A sound math/statistical explanation would be 8~)
--- On *Fri, 1/22/10, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com>* wrote:
From: Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] random sampling To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 1:23 PM
I actually doubt there is any difference in any of the three scenarios.
A - [1,2,3,4,5]
B - [5,1,4,2,3]
Given one pass to access each set, accessing set A randomly for values should give you results just as random as accessing set B regardless if randomly or in sequence
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Nicholas Loki <lokimwenga@yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=lokimwenga@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Hi Wesley/ Rad, How about this:
Or, for that matter, a randomized set sequentially
You get a sequential set of random values.
sorted set randomly
You get a random value set with a high likelihood of some sortedness :-).
randomized set randomly?
Everything is random.
Caveat: No scientific basis to my observations :-).
KR, Loki
"Excellent people exceed expectations".
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What if you have similar cards in the deck? Do you still expect to experience the same level of randomness? --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote: From: Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] random sampling To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:04 PM It should be pretty straightforward to prove using probability. But before we get there let's use a different analogy. Say you have a pack of cards. If you shuffle the pack thoroughly and then pick out cards at random, the randomness of the picked cards is just as random as if you shuffled the pack twice before picking the cards. Shuffling already random cards again does not introduce, for lack of a better word, 'more randomness' Ergo given a randomized set [1,5,2,4,3] So for a single run If you pop the elements in sequence, the result will be as random as popping them at random. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 3:51 PM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote: I've noticed a difference between accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set randomly. I've not checked accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set sequentially. NB: I always re-seed the random number generator with unique values (i.e. I dont repeat the seed value) before each random call. A sound math/statistical explanation would be 8~) --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote: From: Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] random sampling To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 1:23 PM I actually doubt there is any difference in any of the three scenarios. A - [1,2,3,4,5] B - [5,1,4,2,3] Given one pass to access each set, accessing set A randomly for values should give you results just as random as accessing set B regardless if randomly or in sequence On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Nicholas Loki <lokimwenga@yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Wesley/ Rad, How about this:
Or, for that matter, a randomized set sequentially
You get a sequential set of random values.
sorted set randomly
You get a random value set with a high likelihood of some sortedness :-).
randomized set randomly?
Everything is random. Caveat: No scientific basis to my observations :-). KR, Loki "Excellent people exceed expectations". -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AopdHkqSqKL-dHlQVTMxU1VBdU1BSWJxdy1f... ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AopdHkqSqKL-dHlQVTMxU1VBdU1BSWJxdy1f... ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AopdHkqSqKL-dHlQVTMxU1VBdU1BSWJxdy1f... ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
Oh yes. Keep in mind the gambler's fallacy. If i toss a coin now and get heads, the odds of getting heads again on a second toss are *just as equal *as those of getting tails. If you introduce a duplicate into the set, the probability of getting a repeated element are just the same as getting any other. But please take note of my rider for your scenario - provided the selection is done in one run. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 4:15 PM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>wrote:
What if you have similar cards in the deck? Do you still expect to experience the same level of randomness?
I think if all you are interested in is a random set of numbers then the difference with the three approaches is when 'randomness' is introduced. In the first case the set is randomized before numbers are accessed sequentially. In the second case 'randomness' is introduced when one is picking a number at random from a sequential list. In the third case the numbers in the set are randomized and then one is picked at random; so two levels of 'randomness'. Either way random is random so it doesn't make a difference ergo Conrad's analogy holds true. "Excellent people exceed expectations". ________________________________ From: Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> To: Skunkworks Forum <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Fri, January 22, 2010 4:04:59 PM Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] random sampling It should be pretty straightforward to prove using probability. But before we get there let's use a different analogy. Say you have a pack of cards. If you shuffle the pack thoroughly and then pick out cards at random, the randomness of the picked cards is just as random as if you shuffled the pack twice before picking the cards. Shuffling already random cards again does not introduce, for lack of a better word, 'more randomness' Ergo given a randomized set [1,5,2,4,3] So for a single run If you pop the elements in sequence, the result will be as random as popping them at random. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 3:51 PM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote: I've noticed a difference between accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set randomly. I've not checked accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set sequentially.
NB: I always re-seed the random number generator with unique values (i.e. I dont repeat the seed value) before each random call.
A sound math/statistical explanation would be 8~)
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] random sampling
To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 1:23 PM
I actually doubt there is any difference in any of the three scenarios.
A - [1,2,3,4,5]
B - [5,1,4,2,3]
Given one pass to access each set, accessing set A randomly for values should give you results just as random as accessing set B regardless if randomly or in sequence
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Nicholas Loki <lokimwenga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Wesley/ Rad,
How about this:
Or, for that matter, a randomized set sequentially
You get a sequential set of random values.
sorted set randomly
You get a random value set with a high likelihood of some sortedness :-).
randomized set randomly?
Everything is random.
Caveat: No scientific basis to my observations :-).
KR, Loki
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On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:04 PM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
What's the difference between accessing a sorted set randomly versus accessing a randomized set randomly?
The items in the sorted set arent randomized. so even if you access them randomly -- the output is always biased since the original number distribution was biased. in the second case - the items in the set were randomized to start with ... so so acccessing them in any order is always going to result in a randomized set.
The items in the sorted set arent randomized. so even if you access them randomly -- the output is always biased since the original number distribution was biased.
I fail to see your logic here. What bias? Would the same bias still exist if I were to access a randomized set sequentially?
I think I've figured out why I was getting different results for the different random cases. One case was randomizing with a non-uniform distribution while another was using a uniform distribution. 8~) --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Billy <billyx5@gmail.com> wrote: From: Billy <billyx5@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] random sampling To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 5:03 PM The items in the sorted set arent randomized. so even if you access them randomly -- the output is always biased since the original number distribution was biased. I fail to see your logic here. What bias? Would the same bias still exist if I were to access a randomized set sequentially? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Server donations spreadsheet http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AopdHkqSqKL-dHlQVTMxU1VBdU1BSWJxdy1f... ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
participants (5)
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Ashok Hariharan -
Billy -
Nicholas Loki -
Rad! -
wesley kirinya