Re: [Skunkworks] Kebs targets makers of software with quality rules
@Aki when you talk about regulating the theoretical and practical aspects of writing and executing software codes doesn't that responsibility fall with my compiler. coz as far as i am concerned my C++ compiler comply to certain standards. But what I can say is that it would be important to have standards that cover issues like does that software have nasty habits like embedded spy ware within it? something like the posta case. that certainly needs to be regulated among other things i could list here. @Aki another thing when you say FREEWARE are you referring to utilities like my DVD Decrypter that i use to backup my DVD's or are you referring to stuff like Joomla/Drupal which people download for FREE customize and SELL to clients? Coz if thats the case then I totally agree with you SKYPE: sobbayi US: +1 202 297 6831 +1 202 470 0525 KE: +254 722 627 691 http://blog.sobbayi.com http://sobbayi.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rad!" <conradakunga@gmail.com> To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:49:10 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Kebs targets makers of software with quality rules News to me as well. I will see what I can find out from KEBS about this as this is the first I'm hearing about it. As for banning freeware platforms I 1000% completely disagree with you. Freeware and commercial paid for platforms can and have always co-existed. If you are working on a non free platform the onus is on you to provide more value than the freeware On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:35 PM, aki < aki275@googlemail.com > wrote: BD article today.... http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Company%20Industry/-/539550/688040/-/item... This is what got me thinking : "The Kenya ICT Board is also working on a certification programme that will regulate the theoretical and practical aspects of writing and executing software codes." Anyone know what the above is about? And can ICT, KEBS board also ensure that all FREEWARE platforms are banned from kenyan networks, PLEASE !!! It will kill all local software initiatives. I'll check more and share me thots a bit later. :-) Rgds. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co..ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
ban freeware and promote local? In other words, should it be Ok to ditch a good software from a non kenyan just because we are keeping it kenyan? lets not take it that far, we are already keeping it kenyan with expensive sugar and cement. -- with Regards: Get your free technology e-magazine in pdf format: Tekniaonline: http://bit.ly/tekniaonline-2 Sterotyping: Abednego, tell the tribe by the name; visit the blog : http://gramware.blogspot.com
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
@Aki when you talk about regulating the theoretical and practical aspects of writing and executing software codes doesn't that responsibility fall with my compiler. coz as far as i am concerned my C++ compiler comply to certain standards. But what I can say is that it would be important to have standards that cover issues like does that software have nasty habits like embedded spy ware within it? something like the posta case. that certainly needs to be regulated among other things i could list here.
@Steve, I really hope that the 2 bodies use standards to identify code, source techniques esle they may end up giving a ISO compliance badge to someone who may have just have inserted copyright code,themes, brushed the guis and call it kenyan software. I'm also eager to see what Kebs and ICT board comeup with. But this is definately a step forward towards keeping out the cheats from the serious ones. How can one prove that the code is theirs? I believe the local software development will get a kick start and also create a demand.
@Aki another thing when you say FREEWARE are you referring to utilities like my DVD Decrypter that i use to backup my DVD's or are you referring to stuff like Joomla/Drupal which people download for FREE customize and SELL to clients? Coz if thats the case then I totally agree with you
I think the commercial aspect is of concern. By Freeware, I think anything that is offered commercially and monetary transactions take place, while the coding was borrowed. Whether proprietory or open source, there has to be incentive to develop apps that one can find a market for or atleast create a demand for. As long as freeware rules, no one is going anywhere, unfortunately. Me thots
@Aki I don't understand why you have such a problem with freeware. Look at operating systems. Most Unix and Linux versions have been free from time immemorial yet Windows, MacOS and some varieties of Linux and Unix that charge are thriving. How would you explain this? Beeing free in itself is not necessarily an indicator of quality neither does it mean it scratches the itches of the users. Quality is not something that is directly linked to cost. Neither is utility. As for the ICT Board / KEBS I will withhold my opinion until I find out exactly who are participating in that committee On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:34 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
@Aki when you talk about regulating the theoretical and practical aspects of writing and executing software codes doesn't that responsibility fall with my compiler. coz as far as i am concerned my C++ compiler comply to certain standards. But what I can say is that it would be important to have standards that cover issues like does that software have nasty habits like embedded spy ware within it? something like the posta case. that certainly needs to be regulated among other things i could list here.
@Steve, I really hope that the 2 bodies use standards to identify code, source techniques esle they may end up giving a ISO compliance badge to someone who may have just have inserted copyright code,themes, brushed the guis and call it kenyan software. I'm also eager to see what Kebs and ICT board comeup with. But this is definately a step forward towards keeping out the cheats from the serious ones. How can one prove that the code is theirs? I believe the local software development will get a kick start and also create a demand.
@Aki another thing when you say FREEWARE are you referring to utilities like my DVD Decrypter that i use to backup my DVD's or are you referring to stuff like Joomla/Drupal which people download for FREE customize and SELL to clients? Coz if thats the case then I totally agree with you
I think the commercial aspect is of concern. By Freeware, I think anything that is offered commercially and monetary transactions take place, while the coding was borrowed. Whether proprietory or open source, there has to be incentive to develop apps that one can find a market for or atleast create a demand for. As long as freeware rules, no one is going anywhere, unfortunately.
Me thots
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
@Aki
I don't understand why you have such a problem with freeware. Look at operating systems. Most Unix and Linux versions have been free from time immemorial yet Windows, MacOS and some varieties of Linux and Unix that charge are thriving. How would you explain this? Beeing free in itself is not necessarily an indicator of quality neither does it mean it scratches the itches of the users. Quality is not something that is directly linked to cost. Neither is utility.
Sawa @Rad. I think the only problem I have with freeware is that there is no incentive for people to learn more and develop more. We are too comfortable with getting software apps, solutions etc on a plate and serving it to others and feel proud. We are not going into things like programming academies, higher learning and also churning out locally to say eg local/int'l markets. If all it takes is a few lines of changes to a config file to get things working, then what are we really doing? And people can build on closed or open systems, does not matter to me. But please do build, code and develop from code that you know was written by you and be debugged quickly. But I don't want to be on the war path with any listers, thats not my way. :-) Will also await to hear more about the Kebs/ICT initiative. me thots..
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:07 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
Sawa @Rad. I think the only problem I have with freeware is that there is no incentive for people to learn more and develop more. We are too comfortable with getting software apps, solutions etc on a plate and serving it to others and feel proud. We are not going into things like programming academies, higher learning and also churning out locally to say eg local/int'l markets.
Ban freeware and reinvent the wheel when it already exists ? are you serious or joking or inebriated ?
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:28 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
Ban freeware and reinvent the wheel when it already exists ? are you
serious or joking or inebriated ?
@Ashok, hehehe.... come'on lets not be too lazy, take the back seat and justify " reinvent the wheel " notion. Building on apache and Mysql etc is not freeware. Freeware is about ready made solutions that are being sold to end users, under the pretext of progamming and developers. Infact, I'd say such actions are fraudulent. I hope you saw the kisstv site and the template used ( the thread was raised on this list )...what a scam if the site owners called themselves ati web developers/coders! If I was to be a judge on a development competition, though the novice that I am, I'd give 99% to Dennis Kioko for his recent css templates for originality and effort while others who may have flash but borrowed things would likely not even qualify. Freeware has a serious domino's effect, we should be willing to divert it. Client is king, so I also think maybe driving the force of quick fixes and shortcuts. Are clients the ones responsible for the mess? Me amatuer thots on a subject that am still learning... :-)
@Ashok, hehehe.... come'on lets not be too lazy, take the back seat and justify " reinvent the wheel " notion. Building on apache and Mysql etc is not freeware. Freeware is about ready made solutions that are being sold to end users, under the pretext of progamming and developers. Infact, I'd say such actions are fraudulent. I hope you saw the kisstv site and the template used ( the thread was raised on this list )...what a scam if the site owners called themselves ati web developers/coders! If I was to be a judge on a development competition, though the novice that I am, I'd give 99% to Dennis Kioko for his recent css templates for originality and effort while others who may have flash but borrowed things would likely not even qualify.
Freeware has a serious domino's effect, we should be willing to divert it. Client is king, so I also think maybe driving the force of quick fixes and shortcuts. Are clients the ones responsible for the mess?
Me amatuer thots on a subject that am still learning... :-)
Akii, You point is noted and valid. How then do we balance it with the principle of re-usability? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reusability The Oracle Technology Network => http://www.oracle.com/technology/pub/articles/andrei_reuse.html
You point is noted and valid. How then do we balance it with the principle of re-usability? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reusability
The Oracle Technology Network => http://www.oracle.com/technology/pub/articles/andrei_reuse.html
Some of us look at these things from the business (productivity) point of view. We do not want developers going dark (quiet) on us because they cannot deliver on time. Google Android developers are getting into the same problems that Windows Mobile developers have experienced - apps need to be customized for too many platforms - harming developer productivity. Code needs to be easily re-used (with less debugging) on different phones. http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/11/android-fragmentation/ Apple controls the OS and hardware (iPhone) so it is easier for developers to re-use the same code = less debugging = higher quality apps => pity the iPhone 3G is not in my budget yet... and while Microsoft Distinguished Engineers work to resuscitate Windows Mobile it looks like good old Symbian for most of us still ...
@Murigi, code re-use will not make programmers. Yes, an average 101 can re-use code and get the apps/web going ( amatuers the likes of me...... ) . Unfortunately, if this is the reality then we are in more difficulties that I thought. Here is a funny part. You tell people that you want to use an IDE to develop, they say a BIG no,no...such is for amatuers. Then the same people go about reusing code, templates, scripts.... what can one call this? To me the other interesting part in that BD story is that Alex Gakuru mentioned ERPs. I just hope that he is not talking about things that exist on open source that will be customized and badged Kenyan. Then it basically means what we are encouraging is dependency and we may as well forget anything called software development in kenya. Ok, correction time : Maybe its just me who thinks this way and I could *be completely wrong* so to all the code, web and development gurus on the list, what can we say about software/web development/programming in kenya? Re-use code, scripts etc and call it kenyan? Rgds. Me thots...
@Murigi, have you ever wondered why apps or web are not being written out of KE? I can re-call an event some years ago. This was done by Sony Ericsson at jacaranda hotel and SDKs were handed out or something like that. If you attended, pls let me know what the outcome of this event was in terms of app development a few years later, where is the app at? Therein lies the problem. Code re-use has serious set backs and once that code is not available, people will not proceed with development. I'm willing to bet you this is excatly what happened to the above event. Which means, any future events will follow the same effects. Pls someone correct me....
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:51 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
@Murigi, have you ever wondered why apps or web are not being written out of KE? I can re-call an event some years ago. This was done by Sony Ericsson at jacaranda hotel and SDKs were handed out or something like that. If you attended, pls let me know what the outcome of this event was in terms of app development a few years later, where is the app at?
Therein lies the problem. Code re-use has serious set backs and once that code is not available, people will not proceed with development. I'm willing to bet you this is excatly what happened to the above event. Which means, any future events will follow the same effects.
Pls someone correct me....
Our biggest problem here is solo movers = SOLO MOVING!. Many think their projects are so special and work in self inflicted voids. They end up doing a project that only one client buys .. Another project comes up and the same thing .. in the end they have 10 projects over 3 years - each sold to one different client. This is stuff they could share with other developers -- so that others do not have to re-invent what they have done... A developer starts trying to work out 3 components of a project that he (it is usually we the male species with this kind of ego and jive) cannot do ALONE within the specified time and budget. They end up mashing up something disastrous. It turns out there are 10 other developers out there who have actually built the other 2 components required but they were all solo moving - do not care or know of each other because they were all working on their own little gods (projects) thinking ... The end result is nobody pays attention to what could be very notable work - but because they could not sell it or share it with others .. http://joshblog.net/2009/01/12/five-ways-to-become-a-better-software-develop...
Spot on Murigi. What KEBS does is to study the relevant existing ISO standards and recommend them for adoption in Kenya. It would be an uphill task to develop them from scratch. So its important that our talented developers, especially with experience, get on that committee. I have a direct link there and anyone interested will be in. Members of this list actually belong there. Evans On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Murigi Muraya <mmskunkworks@gmail.com>wrote:
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:51 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
@Murigi, have you ever wondered why apps or web are not being written out of KE? I can re-call an event some years ago. This was done by Sony Ericsson at jacaranda hotel and SDKs were handed out or something like that. If you attended, pls let me know what the outcome of this event was in terms of app development a few years later, where is the app at?
Therein lies the problem. Code re-use has serious set backs and once that code is not available, people will not proceed with development. I'm willing to bet you this is excatly what happened to the above event. Which means, any future events will follow the same effects.
Pls someone correct me....
Our biggest problem here is solo movers = SOLO MOVING!. Many think their projects are so special and work in self inflicted voids. They end up doing a project that only one client buys .. Another project comes up and the same thing .. in the end they have 10 projects over 3 years - each sold to one different client. This is stuff they could share with other developers -- so that others do not have to re-invent what they have done...
A developer starts trying to work out 3 components of a project that he (it is usually we the male species with this kind of ego and jive) cannot do ALONE within the specified time and budget. They end up mashing up something disastrous.
It turns out there are 10 other developers out there who have actually built the other 2 components required but they were all solo moving - do not care or know of each other because they were all working on their own little gods (projects) thinking ...
The end result is nobody pays attention to what could be very notable work - but because they could not sell it or share it with others ..
http://joshblog.net/2009/01/12/five-ways-to-become-a-better-software-develop...
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What KEBS does is to study the relevant existing ISO standards and recommend them for adoption in Kenya. It would be an uphill task to develop them from scratch.
Re-using standards? :-)
So its important that our talented developers, especially with experience, get on that committee. I have a direct link there and anyone interested will be in. Members of this list actually belong there.
Maybe KEBS could provide a section on their nice website where skunks from deep space could submit their opinions
My point: concluding that Kenya does not produce software for the local or international market simply because of the prevalent use of FREEWARE, is, for lack of a more polite word, a fallacy. Aki, you are making one large assumption: That the reason Kenya does not produce software for the local or international market is because of code reuse. Here are my thoughts; 1. Kenya does produce software for the local and international market, two outfits come to mind, iSys and Vervient 2. Code reuse is inevitable, unless you want to start by writing your own BIOS, device drivers, OS, compiler, web server etc. Assuming you drive a toyota camry, can not the same argument you are making be applied to it? (they tend to reuse the same powertrains) 3. Finally, the fact that Kenya does not produce software for the international market can be attributed to several variables, not just FREEWARE, for example: a. The local software market is still relatively 'virgin' such that the few companies that do produce software for it are satisfied b. The international software market is relatively hard to penetrate such that local companies find it easier to stick to the local c. Kenyans have peculiar coding habits d. "Tunaomba serikali itusaidie" e. FREEWARE f. etc
@Peter and @Lenchipai, thnks for sharing the info. General Question : SMS gateways. Despite being in demand, has anyone written such or is kannel still the choice? I hope you can now see the devastating effects of freeware, just one example... who in their sober minds will ever want to develop an SMS gateway with all the features that will be for local use? I loved the proprietory days as the incentive was there to learn and do better for competitively. With freeware, it has just killed the industry. How many on this list would buy a locally developed kannel version than to a freebie from the the usual sites? I think we should compile a list and see the real devastation caused by freeware to budding software development industries in developing countries. Me thots....
Look at it this way -- if you developed on that did something that kannel didn't, then you'd have customers. It makes zero sense to develop something exactly like kannel from scratch On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 12:11 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
@Peter and @Lenchipai, thnks for sharing the info.
General Question : SMS gateways. Despite being in demand, has anyone written such or is kannel still the choice?
I hope you can now see the devastating effects of freeware, just one example... who in their sober minds will ever want to develop an SMS gateway with all the features that will be for local use? I loved the proprietory days as the incentive was there to learn and do better for competitively. With freeware, it has just killed the industry.
How many on this list would buy a locally developed kannel version than to a freebie from the the usual sites?
I think we should compile a list and see the real devastation caused by freeware to budding software development industries in developing countries.
Me thots....
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@aki - have to say i've agreed with your point of view on a number of things but in this respect i have to say you are just wrong. You really can't blame freeware for the lack of locally developed software. Its not like freeware exists only in Kenya. Everywhere else people are still coming up with software despite the proliferation of freeware. I agree with Rad you cant go developing your own version kannel just for the warm fuzzy feeling that comes from developing your own stuff from scratch and branding it local. If you want to develop it for the sake of learning the internal workings of sms gateways then thats great. Things like kannel and drupal have been developed over years and all the necessary "panel-beating" done on them to ensure they are robust, secure and functional. The reason I wouldnt go for a new locally/internationally developed version of kannel (free or not) is because it wouldnt have stood the test of time that kannel has. You can build on already existing products and come up with a more superior instead of spending endless man-hours trying to come up with your own. It's all about productivity. If I need a new CMS that comes with all the bells and whistles I have to options, develop one from scratch and hope that it comes out right or take drupal and develop my own modules/plugins for whats not already there. It might take me a good number of months (being very optimistic) to do the former but maybe just a month or so to do the latter. Now, in terms of business, which one do you think the client would rather go for? -Billy
@Rad, @Billy. Thanks for sharing your insights too. Client is king and I can now understand how difficult it would be for many to build from scratch given the limited options. So the entire problem is driven by clients and not programmers. I can also understand that clients may not have the budgets to pay for a full scale paid script and solution. We share the same experiences in the network world too. *Correction on my part was definately in order, thanks to those who have straightened the record else I'd under the impression that coders are not doing what they can.* *Freeware is off the hook from me... :-)* As a final clarification, what would be model programming standards in kenya? - Be practical, re-use code and tools to save on time and costs. - Be innovation, provide a one stop gui/graphics/programming/development solution. These items do not have to be inhouse, can be sourced externally. I think now the immediate issues are what Kebs/KICTB come up with. Rgds.
I am aware that KEBS formed a committee about a month ago to look into the issue of Software deverlopment standards. They also need resources on that committee. In case anyone on this list is interested, I can hook you up with the KEBS people. They actually need your input on these matters. Anyone interested? Ikua On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:22 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
@Rad, @Billy. Thanks for sharing your insights too. Client is king and I can now understand how difficult it would be for many to build from scratch given the limited options. So the entire problem is driven by clients and not programmers. I can also understand that clients may not have the budgets to pay for a full scale paid script and solution. We share the same experiences in the network world too.
*Correction on my part was definately in order, thanks to those who have straightened the record else I'd under the impression that coders are not doing what they can.*
*Freeware is off the hook from me... :-)*
As a final clarification, what would be model programming standards in kenya?
- Be practical, re-use code and tools to save on time and costs.
- Be innovation, provide a one stop gui/graphics/programming/development solution. These items do not have to be inhouse, can be sourced externally.
I think now the immediate issues are what Kebs/KICTB come up with.
Rgds.
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On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
I am aware that KEBS formed a committee about a month ago to look into the issue of Software deverlopment standards. They also need resources on that committee. In case anyone on this list is interested, I can hook you up with the KEBS people. They actually need your input on these matters. Anyone interested?
Would you know if those standards will be applied to software that the Government etc. source from foreign developers? I still get a "Simba 2005 can only accessed using Microsoft Internet Explorer Version 5.0 and above." when I visit the KRA Customs Online Payment site. ~glenn
@Evans I am certainly interested. I've written to KEBS already and not received a response. Anyone in the indistry is well advised to make sure to get on this particular committee. I'm very intrigued -- has any other country attempted anything like this? On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
I am aware that KEBS formed a committee about a month ago to look into the issue of Software deverlopment standards. They also need resources on that committee. In case anyone on this list is interested, I can hook you up with the KEBS people. They actually need your input on these matters. Anyone interested? Ikua
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:22 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
@Rad, @Billy. Thanks for sharing your insights too. Client is king and I can now understand how difficult it would be for many to build from scratch given the limited options. So the entire problem is driven by clients and not programmers. I can also understand that clients may not have the budgets to pay for a full scale paid script and solution. We share the same experiences in the network world too.
*Correction on my part was definately in order, thanks to those who have straightened the record else I'd under the impression that coders are not doing what they can.*
*Freeware is off the hook from me... :-)*
As a final clarification, what would be model programming standards in kenya?
- Be practical, re-use code and tools to save on time and costs.
- Be innovation, provide a one stop gui/graphics/programming/development solution. These items do not have to be inhouse, can be sourced externally.
I think now the immediate issues are what Kebs/KICTB come up with.
Rgds.
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@Rad none that I know off, av tried to Google/Bing it lakini nope! V On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
@Evans I am certainly interested. I've written to KEBS already and not received a response. Anyone in the indistry is well advised to make sure to get on this particular committee.
I'm very intrigued -- has any other country attempted anything like this?
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
I am aware that KEBS formed a committee about a month ago to look into the issue of Software deverlopment standards. They also need resources on that committee. In case anyone on this list is interested, I can hook you up with the KEBS people. They actually need your input on these matters. Anyone interested? Ikua
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:22 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
@Rad, @Billy. Thanks for sharing your insights too. Client is king and I can now understand how difficult it would be for many to build from scratch given the limited options. So the entire problem is driven by clients and not programmers. I can also understand that clients may not have the budgets to pay for a full scale paid script and solution. We share the same experiences in the network world too.
*Correction on my part was definately in order, thanks to those who have straightened the record else I'd under the impression that coders are not doing what they can.*
*Freeware is off the hook from me... :-)*
As a final clarification, what would be model programming standards in kenya?
- Be practical, re-use code and tools to save on time and costs.
- Be innovation, provide a one stop gui/graphics/programming/development solution. These items do not have to be inhouse, can be sourced externally.
I think now the immediate issues are what Kebs/KICTB come up with.
Rgds.
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Aki, If there were to be standards developed by KEBS, they would have to be exceedingly generic to cater for the myriad programming languages, platforms, methodologies, design patterns etc used locally. In my opinion, "practical, re-use code..." and "Be innovation..." are not items you would normally find in a well formed standard, but you might find "have phpDoc comments for each function" in PHP for example. Rad!, Maybe not exactly like KEBS is seeking to do. Though I do not have the source of this, I think what the UK government has done is require that for any company wishing to sell software to the government, certain specific standards must be followed. I am pretty sure similar provisions are in the Fedaral Acquisition Regulations <https://www.acquisition.gov/FAR/current/pdf/FAR.pdf>, evidence of which can be seen in this real RFQ<https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=8f43fb99fb85f3be9b1d5e6ba77162fb&tab=core&_cview=1> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 2:57 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
@Evans I am certainly interested. I've written to KEBS already and not received a response. Anyone in the indistry is well advised to make sure to get on this particular committee.
I'm very intrigued -- has any other country attempted anything like this?
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Evans Ikua <ikua.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
I am aware that KEBS formed a committee about a month ago to look into the issue of Software deverlopment standards. They also need resources on that committee. In case anyone on this list is interested, I can hook you up with the KEBS people. They actually need your input on these matters. Anyone interested? Ikua
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:22 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
@Rad, @Billy. Thanks for sharing your insights too. Client is king and I can now understand how difficult it would be for many to build from scratch given the limited options. So the entire problem is driven by clients and not programmers. I can also understand that clients may not have the budgets to pay for a full scale paid script and solution. We share the same experiences in the network world too.
*Correction on my part was definately in order, thanks to those who have straightened the record else I'd under the impression that coders are not doing what they can.*
*Freeware is off the hook from me... :-)*
As a final clarification, what would be model programming standards in kenya?
- Be practical, re-use code and tools to save on time and costs.
- Be innovation, provide a one stop gui/graphics/programming/development solution. These items do not have to be inhouse, can be sourced externally.
I think now the immediate issues are what Kebs/KICTB come up with.
Rgds.
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@Aki, if everyone went out to develop their own kannel or asterisk,or drupal, we would be having a programming language called Aki++. Talking from a practical point, a client want a voip solution for his office. Asterisk will fit the clients needs perfectly. It has taken asterisk almost 10 years+++ of continuous development, by many people to get to the level it is. Would it be fair to my client for me to sit down and start programming a VOIP system? Would you as a client wait for 6 months - 1 year for a stable system? The situation would be different if say for a business process software that seeks to automate a business operation, with very many varying dynamics. In this case, the developer can sit down and code from scratch. But even then, he wont have to design a "mysql" tool or C++, or even a compiler. It will still involve some re-use. My 2 cents.
@Peter, @Tito. Points well driven and more insight into the why's. Its amazing how everyone on this list has important views and how they make sense. I believe Kebs/Kictb will definately need your inputs, as Evans, Rad, Muraya, Dennis, Ashok+, Ashok, Steve Obbayi, Solomon and yourselves. :-) Good one guys! As I said yesterday, this list sio mchezo with the amount of talent it has. Btw, incase my comments landed on anyone's turf, do ignore the ignorance. Wisdom comes from knowlegde and the ability to take all inputs and understand better. :-) Rgds.
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 5:13 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:28 PM, <ashok+skunkworks@parliaments.info<ashok%2Bskunkworks@parliaments.info>
wrote:
Ban freeware and reinvent the wheel when it already exists ? are you
serious or joking or inebriated ?
@Ashok, hehehe.... come'on lets not be too lazy, take the back seat and justify " reinvent the wheel " notion. Building on apache and Mysql etc is not freeware. Freeware is about ready made solutions that are being sold to end users, under the pretext of progamming and developers. Infact, I'd say such actions are fraudulent. I hope you saw the kisstv site and the template used ( the thread was raised on this list )...what a scam if the site owners called themselves ati web developers/coders!
My point is it is a bit ridiculous to regulate re-use via a standardization and regulatory scheme. It will simply not work because the area specified is very generic ("Software Development") and technology oriented ( no "Freeware" ...WTF do they mean by freeware ? ) . Its like saying we must have standards and regulations on the "manufacturing process" ... I am sure KEBS themselves have different evaluative standards on *end products* and very specific standards on certain specific *processes*. Clearly a gum-boot is different from a office shoe -- even though both are shoes -- so you need different standards to evaluate quality. Ideally standardization should be on the end product - e.g. minimal standards for a company offering BPO / offshoring services -- i.e. does the provider meet internationally recognized data security standards ? what are these minimum standards ? etc... People will always pirate / copy / steal / counterfiet / plagiarize / break the law while driving .. there are laws already in place for these crimes ... why do you want stricter laws and regulatory mechanisms when the existing scheme isnt being implemented properly ? do you really think it will work ?
@Ashok, point well said, the freeware part was my contribute nothing with kebs etc. As with others contributions too, the corrections came "fast and furiuos" and I'm off the freeware issues. There are too many factors and economic reasons that contribute towards why there is much re-use of existing platforms and thus are being used successfully. :-) There is a new possible discussion on way forward but I think programmer listers maybe too tired of attempts to revive issues that may have been tried before by others and did not suceed due to variuos reasons. Pretty complicated stuff, too many variables. Rgds.
<conrad>
As for the ICT Board / KEBS I will withhold my opinion until I find out exactly who are participating in that committee
</conrad>
<steve> @Aki when you talk about regulating the theoretical and practical aspects of writing and executing software codes doesn't that responsibility fall with my compiler. coz as far as i am concerned my C++ compiler comply to certain standards. </steve> My sentiments are similar to Steve Obbayi's but unlike Conrad will not fully restrain myself from stating much that is in my mind. Will see if we can get one or two of these KICTB & KEBS people to our Feb 2010 Kenya MSDN Interop meet. Seems they are trying achieve something that no one (software organization or industry body) anywhere in the world has succeeded in doing = creating certification for software developers / engineers - acceptable industry (local and global) wide .... Tech giants such as Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, Google, IBM etc, when hiring software engineers ask for insight into and experience with certain standards = Platforms (Windows or *nix) and Compilers (C/C++/C#..Java ..) the software engineers will use to improve old or create new technologies. Developer tools even cause software developers to follow (or not) certain practices in their work so ... e.g. FOSS (GPL) tools discourage deliberate obfuscation of software (source) code. Si? Why not call whatever is being done by the KICTB and KEBS a Promotion (not a Certification of) 'Best Practices' - reviewed or updated every few years? My position is that certification should be left to major vendors - bound to versions of products (standards). Nothing proves software engineering skills more than PRODUCTS / (or software consumed as) SERVICES
participants (13)
-
aki -
ashok+skunkworks＠parliaments.info -
Billy -
Dennis Kioko -
Evans Ikua -
Glenn Sequeira -
Lenchipai Nakodony -
Murigi Muraya -
Njoroge Tito -
Peter Karunyu -
Rad! -
Steve Obbayi -
Victor Ngeny