Re: [Skunkworks] Software ownership dispute
@ Erastus while you are fighting in this legal battle just look at tech sides.Since you are the original thinker and developer with lots of ideas that were not there in the first place,creativity is unlimited on your side. -You have to learn this ...No matter what you do in this tech world you should execute your ideas in stages,and strategically before you ready for court battles .Big fishes with big money but with no new idea are desperately looking for a way to punish smaller one for being creative and productive. -Try to look for alternative approaches (different business model) that would open your doors again.And introduce competing ideas and technologies.And since they don`t have you around anymore they will be stuck in legacy product. -Introduce bugs and redundant code everywhere..Yes...and you can honestly tell the court you were still busy perfecting the product.As you know its real boring and hard fixing bugs from someone code. -Play well with hosting company that knows you at the first place,they would limit support to those guys if not denying them completely. -Keep you contracts,receipts,invoices,server license, etc with the 3rd part partner so that you can use them to limit their ownership in every possible itemized service/products, to an extent they would find a software alone is useless in case things turn out against you. Regards, Nicholas Peter.* Kinpro Computers.* *Box:*16954,Arusha. *Tel :*+255 732 972287. *Mobile**:* +255 754 914652 *Email: *kinprocomputers@gmail.com
On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Dear listers,
(Sorry for cross posting)
I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013.
After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app.
I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems.
<https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactionSpec.pdf>
We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server.
I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time.
All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests from the client and the vendors.
On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side.
On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza.
On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day.
I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client.
We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division.
In this case, who legally owns the software?
In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me.
If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me.
Regards, Erastus +254716165716
_______
I think this should serve as an example that one should always be on guard. Even dealings in ihub and nailub should be handled with care. Don't do something because you can, always ask yourself if you should. On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 1:16 AM, Kinpro Computers-All IT soutions via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Erastus
while you are fighting in this legal battle just look at tech sides.Since you are the original thinker and developer with lots of ideas that were not there in the first place,creativity is unlimited on your side.
-You have to learn this ...No matter what you do in this tech world you should execute your ideas in stages,and strategically before you ready for court battles .Big fishes with big money but with no new idea are desperately looking for a way to punish smaller one for being creative and productive.
-Try to look for alternative approaches (different business model) that would open your doors again.And introduce competing ideas and technologies.And since they don`t have you around anymore they will be stuck in legacy product.
-Introduce bugs and redundant code everywhere..Yes...and you can honestly tell the court you were still busy perfecting the product.As you know its real boring and hard fixing bugs from someone code.
-Play well with hosting company that knows you at the first place,they would limit support to those guys if not denying them completely.
-Keep you contracts,receipts,invoices,server license, etc with the 3rd part partner so that you can use them to limit their ownership in every possible itemized service/products, to an extent they would find a software alone is useless in case things turn out against you.
Regards, Nicholas Peter.* Kinpro Computers.* *Box:*16954,Arusha. *Tel :*+255 732 972287. *Mobile**:* +255 754 914652 *Email: *kinprocomputers@gmail.com
On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Dear listers,
(Sorry for cross posting)
I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i
developed
for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013.
After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out to me that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for vending prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and a half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well and they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. The demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float management, billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt via a bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to their hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and continued to push live transactions via the app.
I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here:
https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio...
the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect to KPLC prepaid systems.
< https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio...
We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue share less all technological related expenses which includes the hosting charges for the server.
I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that were to be billed on me over that time.
All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new
requests
from the client and the vendors.
On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this time the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats when I registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from Kenya Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on my side.
On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located at the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza.
On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We all agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market valuation of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU that would see us through the process of this sale.
From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my money and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i would shutdown the server.
On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender administrative passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on the faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during those times but thats a story for another day.
I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court application document, the client now says that they fully owns the software despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that I acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was running under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client.
We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division.
In this case, who legally owns the software?
In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me.
If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot in Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me.
Regards, Erastus +254716165716
_______
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
+1 But at times you badly need that 50k for a piece of software that could being you 5 million and you can't hold out, bargain and negotiate or you might loose it all, and 50k is better than nothing. We all have to start from somewhere - you could take it as giving back before you take. So when you become a billionaire you don't have to give back a cent :) I'm sure William Gates has several pieces of software like that running around that he wrote and had to let go to get his footing... I always say if you wrote it, you can always write a better one! ᐧ On 13 February 2015 at 10:05, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I think this should serve as an example that one should always be on guard. Even dealings in ihub and nailub should be handled with care.
Don't do something because you can, always ask yourself if you should.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 1:16 AM, Kinpro Computers-All IT soutions via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Erastus
while you are fighting in this legal battle just look at tech sides.Since you are the original thinker and developer with lots of ideas that were not there in the first place,creativity is unlimited on your side.
-You have to learn this ...No matter what you do in this tech world you should execute your ideas in stages,and strategically before you ready for court battles .Big fishes with big money but with no new idea are desperately looking for a way to punish smaller one for being creative and productive.
-Try to look for alternative approaches (different business model) that would open your doors again.And introduce competing ideas and technologies.And since they don`t have you around anymore they will be stuck in legacy product.
-Introduce bugs and redundant code everywhere..Yes...and you can honestly tell the court you were still busy perfecting the product.As you know its real boring and hard fixing bugs from someone code.
-Play well with hosting company that knows you at the first place,they would limit support to those guys if not denying them completely.
-Keep you contracts,receipts,invoices,server license, etc with the 3rd part partner so that you can use them to limit their ownership in every possible itemized service/products, to an extent they would find a software alone is useless in case things turn out against you.
Regards, Nicholas Peter.* Kinpro Computers.* *Box:*16954,Arusha. *Tel :*+255 732 972287. *Mobile**:* +255 754 914652 *Email: *kinprocomputers@gmail.com
On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
> > > Dear listers, > > (Sorry for cross posting) > > > I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed > for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013. > > After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own > projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out > to me > that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for > vending > prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and > a > half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well > and > they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. > The > demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float > management, > billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt > via a > bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to > their > hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the > server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and > continued to push live transactions via the app. > > I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: > https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... > the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by > just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect > to > KPLC prepaid systems. > > < https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio...
> > We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue > share less all technological related expenses which includes the > hosting > charges for the server. > > I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that > were to be billed on me over that time. > > All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests > from the client and the vendors. > > On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a > 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this > time > the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was > contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats > when I > registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from > Kenya > Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on > my > side. > > On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a > cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located > at > the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza. > > On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in > acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We > all > agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market > valuation > of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU > that > would see us through the process of this sale. > > From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts > up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would > urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went > ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the > arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never > signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my > money > and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i > would shutdown the server. > > On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred > me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either > physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender > administrative > passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the > application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on > the > faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the > server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during > those > times but thats a story for another day. > > > I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 > when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any > passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court > application document, the client now says that they fully owns the > software > despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that > I > acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was > running > under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client. > > We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) > at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division. > > In this case, who legally owns the software? > > In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me. > > If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. > Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot > in > Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me. > > > Regards, > Erastus > +254716165716 > > > _______
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
@Jangita, Its thinking like that that gets a lot of developers in trouble. If you believe in what you are doing don't take 50k from the devil. If you believe in yourself you will encounter numerous problems but never give up. Always sign contracts before beginning anything and most importantly never take money from the devil. On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Jangita Nyagudi <jangita.nyagudi@gmail.com> wrote:
+1
But at times you badly need that 50k for a piece of software that could being you 5 million and you can't hold out, bargain and negotiate or you might loose it all, and 50k is better than nothing. We all have to start from somewhere - you could take it as giving back before you take. So when you become a billionaire you don't have to give back a cent :)
I'm sure William Gates has several pieces of software like that running around that he wrote and had to let go to get his footing...
I always say if you wrote it, you can always write a better one! ᐧ
On 13 February 2015 at 10:05, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I think this should serve as an example that one should always be on guard. Even dealings in ihub and nailub should be handled with care.
Don't do something because you can, always ask yourself if you should.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 1:16 AM, Kinpro Computers-All IT soutions via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Erastus
while you are fighting in this legal battle just look at tech sides.Since you are the original thinker and developer with lots of ideas that were not there in the first place,creativity is unlimited on your side.
-You have to learn this ...No matter what you do in this tech world you should execute your ideas in stages,and strategically before you ready for court battles .Big fishes with big money but with no new idea are desperately looking for a way to punish smaller one for being creative and productive.
-Try to look for alternative approaches (different business model) that would open your doors again.And introduce competing ideas and technologies.And since they don`t have you around anymore they will be stuck in legacy product.
-Introduce bugs and redundant code everywhere..Yes...and you can honestly tell the court you were still busy perfecting the product.As you know its real boring and hard fixing bugs from someone code.
-Play well with hosting company that knows you at the first place,they would limit support to those guys if not denying them completely.
-Keep you contracts,receipts,invoices,server license, etc with the 3rd part partner so that you can use them to limit their ownership in every possible itemized service/products, to an extent they would find a software alone is useless in case things turn out against you.
Regards, Nicholas Peter.* Kinpro Computers.* *Box:*16954,Arusha. *Tel :*+255 732 972287. *Mobile**:* +255 754 914652 *Email: *kinprocomputers@gmail.com
> On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: > >> >> >> Dear listers, >> >> (Sorry for cross posting) >> >> >> I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed >> for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013. >> >> After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own >> projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out >> to me >> that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for >> vending >> prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and >> a >> half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well >> and >> they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. >> The >> demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float >> management, >> billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt >> via a >> bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to >> their >> hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the >> server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and >> continued to push live transactions via the app. >> >> I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: >> https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... >> the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by >> just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect >> to >> KPLC prepaid systems. >> >> < https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio...
>> >> We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue >> share less all technological related expenses which includes the >> hosting >> charges for the server. >> >> I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that >> were to be billed on me over that time. >> >> All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests >> from the client and the vendors. >> >> On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a >> 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this >> time >> the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was >> contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats >> when I >> registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from >> Kenya >> Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on >> my >> side. >> >> On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a >> cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located >> at >> the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza. >> >> On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in >> acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We >> all >> agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market >> valuation >> of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU >> that >> would see us through the process of this sale. >> >> From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts >> up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would >> urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went >> ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the >> arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never >> signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my >> money >> and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i >> would shutdown the server. >> >> On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred >> me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either >> physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender >> administrative >> passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the >> application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on >> the >> faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the >> server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during >> those >> times but thats a story for another day. >> >> >> I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 >> when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any >> passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court >> application document, the client now says that they fully owns the >> software >> despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that >> I >> acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was >> running >> under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client. >> >> We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) >> at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division. >> >> In this case, who legally owns the software? >> >> In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me. >> >> If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. >> Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot >> in >> Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me. >> >> >> Regards, >> Erastus >> +254716165716 >> >> >> _______
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
True, but I've come across developers (me being one of them at some point) with literally 20 bob between them and packing up and going back to shags, and even that shags they can't get to because they don't have any at all. What would be a good move in this case? Of course if you have food on the table and rent already paid for, then by all means don't take the 50k ᐧ On 13 February 2015 at 10:28, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jangita,
Its thinking like that that gets a lot of developers in trouble. If you believe in what you are doing don't take 50k from the devil. If you believe in yourself you will encounter numerous problems but never give up. Always sign contracts before beginning anything and most importantly never take money from the devil.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Jangita Nyagudi < jangita.nyagudi@gmail.com> wrote:
+1
But at times you badly need that 50k for a piece of software that could being you 5 million and you can't hold out, bargain and negotiate or you might loose it all, and 50k is better than nothing. We all have to start from somewhere - you could take it as giving back before you take. So when you become a billionaire you don't have to give back a cent :)
I'm sure William Gates has several pieces of software like that running around that he wrote and had to let go to get his footing...
I always say if you wrote it, you can always write a better one! ᐧ
On 13 February 2015 at 10:05, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I think this should serve as an example that one should always be on guard. Even dealings in ihub and nailub should be handled with care.
Don't do something because you can, always ask yourself if you should.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 1:16 AM, Kinpro Computers-All IT soutions via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Erastus
while you are fighting in this legal battle just look at tech sides.Since you are the original thinker and developer with lots of ideas that were not there in the first place,creativity is unlimited on your side.
-You have to learn this ...No matter what you do in this tech world you should execute your ideas in stages,and strategically before you ready for court battles .Big fishes with big money but with no new idea are desperately looking for a way to punish smaller one for being creative and productive.
-Try to look for alternative approaches (different business model) that would open your doors again.And introduce competing ideas and technologies.And since they don`t have you around anymore they will be stuck in legacy product.
-Introduce bugs and redundant code everywhere..Yes...and you can honestly tell the court you were still busy perfecting the product.As you know its real boring and hard fixing bugs from someone code.
-Play well with hosting company that knows you at the first place,they would limit support to those guys if not denying them completely.
-Keep you contracts,receipts,invoices,server license, etc with the 3rd part partner so that you can use them to limit their ownership in every possible itemized service/products, to an extent they would find a software alone is useless in case things turn out against you.
Regards, Nicholas Peter.* Kinpro Computers.* *Box:*16954,Arusha. *Tel :*+255 732 972287. *Mobile**:* +255 754 914652 *Email: *kinprocomputers@gmail.com
>> On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Dear listers, >>> >>> (Sorry for cross posting) >>> >>> >>> I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed >>> for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013. >>> >>> After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own >>> projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out >>> to me >>> that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for >>> vending >>> prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and >>> a >>> half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well >>> and >>> they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. >>> The >>> demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float >>> management, >>> billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt >>> via a >>> bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to >>> their >>> hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the >>> server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and >>> continued to push live transactions via the app. >>> >>> I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: >>> https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... >>> the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by >>> just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect >>> to >>> KPLC prepaid systems. >>> >>> < https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio...
>>> >>> We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue >>> share less all technological related expenses which includes the >>> hosting >>> charges for the server. >>> >>> I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that >>> were to be billed on me over that time. >>> >>> All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests >>> from the client and the vendors. >>> >>> On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a >>> 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this >>> time >>> the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was >>> contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats >>> when I >>> registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from >>> Kenya >>> Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on >>> my >>> side. >>> >>> On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a >>> cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located >>> at >>> the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza. >>> >>> On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in >>> acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We >>> all >>> agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market >>> valuation >>> of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU >>> that >>> would see us through the process of this sale. >>> >>> From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts >>> up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would >>> urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went >>> ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the >>> arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never >>> signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my >>> money >>> and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i >>> would shutdown the server. >>> >>> On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred >>> me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either >>> physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender >>> administrative >>> passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the >>> application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on >>> the >>> faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the >>> server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during >>> those >>> times but thats a story for another day. >>> >>> >>> I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 >>> when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any >>> passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court >>> application document, the client now says that they fully owns the >>> software >>> despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that >>> I >>> acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was >>> running >>> under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client. >>> >>> We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) >>> at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division. >>> >>> In this case, who legally owns the software? >>> >>> In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me. >>> >>> If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. >>> Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot >>> in >>> Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Erastus >>> +254716165716 >>> >>> >>> _______
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Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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+254720425104
@jangita Are you trying to imply that you cannot develop anything while you are in shags? Who says that you must get your first seed capital from software? Do Won Chang, Jack Ma, Shahid Khan when its all said and done you might have thrown your only chance of success with your first deal of taking that 50k only to be knocked out of all proceeds it will make. Pressure creates diamonds We don't trust rules; we trust people! On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 9:32 AM, Jangita Nyagudi <jangita.nyagudi@gmail.com> wrote:
True, but I've come across developers (me being one of them at some point) with literally 20 bob between them and packing up and going back to shags, and even that shags they can't get to because they don't have any at all. What would be a good move in this case? Of course if you have food on the table and rent already paid for, then by all means don't take the 50k ᐧ
On 13 February 2015 at 10:28, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jangita,
Its thinking like that that gets a lot of developers in trouble. If you believe in what you are doing don't take 50k from the devil. If you believe in yourself you will encounter numerous problems but never give up. Always sign contracts before beginning anything and most importantly never take money from the devil.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Jangita Nyagudi < jangita.nyagudi@gmail.com> wrote:
+1
But at times you badly need that 50k for a piece of software that could being you 5 million and you can't hold out, bargain and negotiate or you might loose it all, and 50k is better than nothing. We all have to start from somewhere - you could take it as giving back before you take. So when you become a billionaire you don't have to give back a cent :)
I'm sure William Gates has several pieces of software like that running around that he wrote and had to let go to get his footing...
I always say if you wrote it, you can always write a better one! ᐧ
On 13 February 2015 at 10:05, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I think this should serve as an example that one should always be on guard. Even dealings in ihub and nailub should be handled with care.
Don't do something because you can, always ask yourself if you should.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 1:16 AM, Kinpro Computers-All IT soutions via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Erastus
while you are fighting in this legal battle just look at tech sides.Since you are the original thinker and developer with lots of ideas that were not there in the first place,creativity is unlimited on your side.
-You have to learn this ...No matter what you do in this tech world you should execute your ideas in stages,and strategically before you ready for court battles .Big fishes with big money but with no new idea are desperately looking for a way to punish smaller one for being creative and productive.
-Try to look for alternative approaches (different business model) that would open your doors again.And introduce competing ideas and technologies.And since they don`t have you around anymore they will be stuck in legacy product.
-Introduce bugs and redundant code everywhere..Yes...and you can honestly tell the court you were still busy perfecting the product.As you know its real boring and hard fixing bugs from someone code.
-Play well with hosting company that knows you at the first place,they would limit support to those guys if not denying them completely.
-Keep you contracts,receipts,invoices,server license, etc with the 3rd part partner so that you can use them to limit their ownership in every possible itemized service/products, to an extent they would find a software alone is useless in case things turn out against you.
Regards, Nicholas Peter.* Kinpro Computers.* *Box:*16954,Arusha. *Tel :*+255 732 972287. *Mobile**:* +255 754 914652 *Email: *kinprocomputers@gmail.com
>>> On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear listers, >>>> >>>> (Sorry for cross posting) >>>> >>>> >>>> I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed >>>> for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013. >>>> >>>> After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own >>>> projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out >>>> to me >>>> that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for >>>> vending >>>> prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and >>>> a >>>> half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well >>>> and >>>> they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. >>>> The >>>> demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float >>>> management, >>>> billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt >>>> via a >>>> bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to >>>> their >>>> hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the >>>> server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and >>>> continued to push live transactions via the app. >>>> >>>> I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: >>>> https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... >>>> the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by >>>> just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect >>>> to >>>> KPLC prepaid systems. >>>> >>>> < https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio...
>>>> >>>> We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue >>>> share less all technological related expenses which includes the >>>> hosting >>>> charges for the server. >>>> >>>> I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that >>>> were to be billed on me over that time. >>>> >>>> All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests >>>> from the client and the vendors. >>>> >>>> On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a >>>> 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this >>>> time >>>> the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was >>>> contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats >>>> when I >>>> registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from >>>> Kenya >>>> Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on >>>> my >>>> side. >>>> >>>> On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a >>>> cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located >>>> at >>>> the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza. >>>> >>>> On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in >>>> acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We >>>> all >>>> agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market >>>> valuation >>>> of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU >>>> that >>>> would see us through the process of this sale. >>>> >>>> From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts >>>> up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would >>>> urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went >>>> ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the >>>> arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never >>>> signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my >>>> money >>>> and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i >>>> would shutdown the server. >>>> >>>> On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred >>>> me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either >>>> physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender >>>> administrative >>>> passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the >>>> application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on >>>> the >>>> faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the >>>> server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during >>>> those >>>> times but thats a story for another day. >>>> >>>> >>>> I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 >>>> when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any >>>> passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court >>>> application document, the client now says that they fully owns the >>>> software >>>> despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that >>>> I >>>> acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was >>>> running >>>> under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client. >>>> >>>> We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) >>>> at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division. >>>> >>>> In this case, who legally owns the software? >>>> >>>> In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me. >>>> >>>> If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. >>>> Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot >>>> in >>>> Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Erastus >>>> +254716165716 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
-- Best Regards, Stephen Munguti. +254720425104
inakaa hatuelewani :) ᐧ On 13 February 2015 at 10:53, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@jangita
Are you trying to imply that you cannot develop anything while you are in shags? Who says that you must get your first seed capital from software? Do Won Chang, Jack Ma, Shahid Khan when its all said and done you might have thrown your only chance of success with your first deal of taking that 50k only to be knocked out of all proceeds it will make.
Pressure creates diamonds We don't trust rules; we trust people!
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 9:32 AM, Jangita Nyagudi < jangita.nyagudi@gmail.com> wrote:
True, but I've come across developers (me being one of them at some point) with literally 20 bob between them and packing up and going back to shags, and even that shags they can't get to because they don't have any at all. What would be a good move in this case? Of course if you have food on the table and rent already paid for, then by all means don't take the 50k ᐧ
On 13 February 2015 at 10:28, Stephen Munguti <kamitu.sm@gmail.com> wrote:
@Jangita,
Its thinking like that that gets a lot of developers in trouble. If you believe in what you are doing don't take 50k from the devil. If you believe in yourself you will encounter numerous problems but never give up. Always sign contracts before beginning anything and most importantly never take money from the devil.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Jangita Nyagudi < jangita.nyagudi@gmail.com> wrote:
+1
But at times you badly need that 50k for a piece of software that could being you 5 million and you can't hold out, bargain and negotiate or you might loose it all, and 50k is better than nothing. We all have to start from somewhere - you could take it as giving back before you take. So when you become a billionaire you don't have to give back a cent :)
I'm sure William Gates has several pieces of software like that running around that he wrote and had to let go to get his footing...
I always say if you wrote it, you can always write a better one! ᐧ
On 13 February 2015 at 10:05, Stephen Munguti via skunkworks < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
I think this should serve as an example that one should always be on guard. Even dealings in ihub and nailub should be handled with care.
Don't do something because you can, always ask yourself if you should.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 1:16 AM, Kinpro Computers-All IT soutions via skunkworks <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
@ Erastus
while you are fighting in this legal battle just look at tech sides.Since you are the original thinker and developer with lots of ideas that were not there in the first place,creativity is unlimited on your side.
-You have to learn this ...No matter what you do in this tech world you should execute your ideas in stages,and strategically before you ready for court battles .Big fishes with big money but with no new idea are desperately looking for a way to punish smaller one for being creative and productive.
-Try to look for alternative approaches (different business model) that would open your doors again.And introduce competing ideas and technologies.And since they don`t have you around anymore they will be stuck in legacy product.
-Introduce bugs and redundant code everywhere..Yes...and you can honestly tell the court you were still busy perfecting the product.As you know its real boring and hard fixing bugs from someone code.
-Play well with hosting company that knows you at the first place,they would limit support to those guys if not denying them completely.
-Keep you contracts,receipts,invoices,server license, etc with the 3rd part partner so that you can use them to limit their ownership in every possible itemized service/products, to an extent they would find a software alone is useless in case things turn out against you.
Regards, Nicholas Peter.* Kinpro Computers.* *Box:*16954,Arusha. *Tel :*+255 732 972287. *Mobile**:* +255 754 914652 *Email: *kinprocomputers@gmail.com
>>>> On Feb 11, 2015 12:35 AM, "gisho via skunkworks" < >>>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear listers, >>>>> >>>>> (Sorry for cross posting) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have an ongoing case against me on regards to a software i developed >>>>> for a client called Ceven ltd on year 2013. >>>>> >>>>> After I resigned from employment at March 2013, I stated doing my own >>>>> projects and thats when the then general manager of Ceven pointed out >>>>> to me >>>>> that they were in need of a better and more efficient system for >>>>> vending >>>>> prepaid electricity tokens. Working at home, i worked for a month and >>>>> a >>>>> half and presented my demo on April 2013. The demo was received well >>>>> and >>>>> they gave me the go ahead to finalize the bits that were still rough. >>>>> The >>>>> demo included interfaces for vendor management, virtual float >>>>> management, >>>>> billing and a J2ME app for Nokia phones that would dispense a receipt >>>>> via a >>>>> bluetooth printer. On April 15th 2013 I installed the application to >>>>> their >>>>> hardware for a live test. After a thorough test we decided to host the >>>>> server at Access Kenya data center at Baclys Plaza on mid May 2013 and >>>>> continued to push live transactions via the app. >>>>> >>>>> I used a publicly available Ipay API that was then available here: >>>>> https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... >>>>> the API is no longer available form that site but can still be found by >>>>> just googling for it. The API enabled me to create a client to connect >>>>> to >>>>> KPLC prepaid systems. >>>>> >>>>> < https://gforge.bizswitch.net/docman/view.php/9/34/Ipay-prepaidElecTransactio... > >>>>> >>>>> We discussed on payments that i was to take 20% of the net revenue >>>>> share less all technological related expenses which includes the >>>>> hosting >>>>> charges for the server. >>>>> >>>>> I got my first pay on September 2013 after settling all expenses that >>>>> were to be billed on me over that time. >>>>> >>>>> All this time I was still upgrading the app to accommodate new requests >>>>> from the client and the vendors. >>>>> >>>>> On June 2014, the client sent me the attached draft contract with a >>>>> 2013 date and claimed that Ceven ltd owned my application.As at this >>>>> time >>>>> the business had grown big and was known far and wide. The contract was >>>>> contrary to what i expected and I began to seek legal help and thats >>>>> when I >>>>> registered a company and also obtained a copyright certificate from >>>>> Kenya >>>>> Copyright Board. I did not sign the contract as I felt it was unfair on >>>>> my >>>>> side. >>>>> >>>>> On August 2014 I moved my application from the client's hardware to a >>>>> cloud server and then to my server on October 2014 which was co-located >>>>> at >>>>> the same place - Access Kenya data center at Baclays plaza. >>>>> >>>>> On October 2014 the client indicated that they were interested in >>>>> acquiring the application and we started negotiations for the same. We >>>>> all >>>>> agreed that we were to find a party that would do a fair market >>>>> valuation >>>>> of the software application independently. Attached was our draft MOU >>>>> that >>>>> would see us through the process of this sale. >>>>> >>>>> From August 2014 the client started failing to pay the agreed amounts >>>>> up to November 2014 and whenever I would demand for payments they would >>>>> urge me to sign the contract. On start of December 2014, my lawyer went >>>>> ahead and wrote a negotiation agreement that required them to pay the >>>>> arrears and payment terms for the negotiation period which they never >>>>> signed. At all this time I would pay for the service expenses with my >>>>> money >>>>> and it was inevitable that if the client did not pay for the service i >>>>> would shutdown the server. >>>>> >>>>> On December 16th 2014, the client was issued a court order that barred >>>>> me from accesing my server or the clients server at Access Kenya either >>>>> physically or remotely. It also said that I should surrender >>>>> administrative >>>>> passwords to them. They went ahead and shutdown my server where the >>>>> application was running and that was it... business closed! Later on >>>>> the >>>>> faithful monit would send me emails of attempted power cycles on the >>>>> server. I still don't know what was happening at the server during >>>>> those >>>>> times but thats a story for another day. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was out of Nairobi on December 2014 and I came back on January 2015 >>>>> when I was served with the court order. I declined to give out any >>>>> passwords as that would get my software copied. Upon reading the court >>>>> application document, the client now says that they fully owns the >>>>> software >>>>> despite them not providing any prove of ownership. They also claim that >>>>> I >>>>> acquired my copyright certificate fraudulently. The software was >>>>> running >>>>> under brand "Pata Pawa" which is owned by the client. >>>>> >>>>> We are now in court and hearing is on February 11 2015 (which is today) >>>>> at High Court of Kenya Nairobi - Commercial and Admiralty Division. >>>>> >>>>> In this case, who legally owns the software? >>>>> >>>>> In case of any clarifications feel free to contact me. >>>>> >>>>> If I win this case, I will release the code under GPL or MIT license. >>>>> Maybe someone will learn something from it. If I don't, I'll likely rot >>>>> in >>>>> Jail for contempt of court which the judge said might be higher for me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Erastus >>>>> +254716165716 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
--
Best Regards, Stephen Munguti.
+254720425104
participants (3)
-
Jangita Nyagudi -
Kinpro Computers-All IT soutions -
Stephen Munguti