Re: [Skunkworks] OT - Fine for driving while on phone
The issue with me is the spirit behind the amount. I dont think the amount was about safety. And whether we like it or not, this has opened up corruption more than ever. Because a typical Kenyan will reason out that paying 50k to the state is 'worse' than paying 10k or so to a cop. Will that deter the person from talking while driving? I dont know
Someone who has propensity to pay a bribe will not stop just because its cheap. They will always go that route as bribe are cheaper than fine. However, when the fine is high, it forces the bribe to go up too. No police will take 50 Bob if the fine is 50,000. So in a way, mold the drivers as the government intended. Muriithi
Interesting research here< http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/04/03/forget-phones-or-fast-fo... shows that becoming becoming ?lost in thought? is actually far more dangerous than talking on the phone or texting while behind the wheel.
Again, I reiterate, I would never play down the risks associated with phone use while driving. It's just that I feel the amounts are a bit arbitrary
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Martin Akolo Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Bwana Lawi,
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Bwana Lawi <mail2lawi@gmail.com> wrote:
Does this include talking via hands-free?
Some people think that hands-free driving is not such a neat idea:
1)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/217212/hands-free-or-voice-activated...
2)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/06/12/1845226/another-study-confirms-hands...
Martin.
While I dont advocate for law breaking, some of these penalties are
pretty
harsh.
Compare https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Gichuki John Chuksjonia < chuksjonia@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have to talk on phone when driving, i cant even pick, even when its my mother.
On 7/8/13, Benjamin <anangwe@gmail.com> wrote:
ili iwe funzo
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
Thumbs up Kevin.
Just do the right thing. In any case the driver will most probably never forget the ordeal. The fine can not be compared the risk that his act posed to the culprit and other road users.
Tony.
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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-- -- Gichuki John Ndirangu, C.E.H , C.P.T.P, O.S.C.P I.T Security Analyst and Penetration Tester jgichuki at inbox d0t com
{FORUM}http://lists.my.co.ke/pipermail/security/ http://chuksjonia.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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How about raising the penalty to a mandatory jail term . say 5 years ? That will completely discourage people from talking on the phone while driving. How about death sentences for driving on the wrong side? My point is, there is always a severer penalty, which will supposedly end all vice forever and ever. But does it work ? There are other countries where drivers are more civil inspite of lower spot fines (which are less incoveniencing than court fines), conducting themselves much better than we do here. Perhaps we should find out how those societies got to that level of civility and try to inculcate the same here. I however admit that it is much easier to just sit back and impose a death sentence on every offence and watch the backlog of court files drastically reduce. -- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH. On 9 July 2013 01:51, William Muriithi <william.muriithi@gmail.com> wrote:
The issue with me is the spirit behind the amount. I dont think the amount was about safety. And whether we like it or not, this has opened up corruption more than ever. Because a typical Kenyan will reason out that paying 50k to the state is 'worse' than paying 10k or so to a cop. Will that deter the person from talking while driving? I dont know
Someone who has propensity to pay a bribe will not stop just because its cheap. They will always go that route as bribe are cheaper than fine.
However, when the fine is high, it forces the bribe to go up too. No police will take 50 Bob if the fine is 50,000. So in a way, mold the drivers as the government intended.
Muriithi
Interesting research here< http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/04/03/forget-phones-or-fast-fo... shows that becoming becoming ?lost in thought? is actually far more
dangerous than talking on the phone or texting while behind the wheel.
Again, I reiterate, I would never play down the risks associated with phone use while driving. It's just that I feel the amounts are a bit arbitrary
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Martin Akolo Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Bwana Lawi,
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Bwana Lawi <mail2lawi@gmail.com> wrote:
Does this include talking via hands-free?
Some people think that hands-free driving is not such a neat idea:
1)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/217212/hands-free-or-voice-activated...
2)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/06/12/1845226/another-study-confirms-hands...
Martin.
While I dont advocate for law breaking, some of these penalties are
pretty
harsh.
Compare https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Gichuki John Chuksjonia < chuksjonia@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have to talk on phone when driving, i cant even pick, even when its my mother.
On 7/8/13, Benjamin <anangwe@gmail.com> wrote:
ili iwe funzo
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Tony Likhanga < tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thumbs up Kevin. > > Just do the right thing. In any case the driver will most probably never > forget the ordeal. > The fine can not be compared the risk that his act posed to the culprit > and other road users. > > Tony. > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
-- -- Gichuki John Ndirangu, C.E.H , C.P.T.P, O.S.C.P I.T Security Analyst and Penetration Tester jgichuki at inbox d0t com
{FORUM}http://lists.my.co.ke/pipermail/security/ http://chuksjonia.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
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Speaking of which, do we have social scientists here ? They may be of great help in designing methods of reforming social psyche. Si hata social scientists and psychologists ni scientists pia ? I still think there is a scientific approach that would solve us these problems and avoid us having to resort to Thor's hammer. -- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH. On 9 July 2013 12:23, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
How about raising the penalty to a mandatory jail term . say 5 years ? That will completely discourage people from talking on the phone while driving. How about death sentences for driving on the wrong side? My point is, there is always a severer penalty, which will supposedly end all vice forever and ever. But does it work ? There are other countries where drivers are more civil inspite of lower spot fines (which are less incoveniencing than court fines), conducting themselves much better than we do here. Perhaps we should find out how those societies got to that level of civility and try to inculcate the same here. I however admit that it is much easier to just sit back and impose a death sentence on every offence and watch the backlog of court files drastically reduce.
-- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH.
On 9 July 2013 01:51, William Muriithi <william.muriithi@gmail.com> wrote:
The issue with me is the spirit behind the amount. I dont think the amount was about safety. And whether we like it or not, this has opened up corruption more than ever. Because a typical Kenyan will reason out that paying 50k to the state is 'worse' than paying 10k or so to a cop. Will that deter the person from talking while driving? I dont know
Someone who has propensity to pay a bribe will not stop just because its cheap. They will always go that route as bribe are cheaper than fine.
However, when the fine is high, it forces the bribe to go up too. No police will take 50 Bob if the fine is 50,000. So in a way, mold the drivers as the government intended.
Muriithi
Interesting research here< http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/04/03/forget-phones-or-fast-fo... shows that becoming becoming ?lost in thought? is actually far more
dangerous than talking on the phone or texting while behind the wheel.
Again, I reiterate, I would never play down the risks associated with phone use while driving. It's just that I feel the amounts are a bit arbitrary
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Martin Akolo Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Bwana Lawi,
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Bwana Lawi <mail2lawi@gmail.com> wrote:
Does this include talking via hands-free?
Some people think that hands-free driving is not such a neat idea:
1)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/217212/hands-free-or-voice-activated...
2)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/06/12/1845226/another-study-confirms-hands...
Martin.
While I dont advocate for law breaking, some of these penalties are
pretty
harsh.
Compare https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Gichuki John Chuksjonia < chuksjonia@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have to talk on phone when driving, i cant even pick, even when its my mother.
On 7/8/13, Benjamin <anangwe@gmail.com> wrote: > ili iwe funzo > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Tony Likhanga < tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thumbs up Kevin. >> >> Just do the right thing. In any case the driver will most probably never >> forget the ordeal. >> The fine can not be compared the risk that his act posed to the culprit >> and other road users. >> >> Tony. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >
-- -- Gichuki John Ndirangu, C.E.H , C.P.T.P, O.S.C.P I.T Security Analyst and Penetration Tester jgichuki at inbox d0t com
{FORUM}http://lists.my.co.ke/pipermail/security/ http://chuksjonia.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
Hello Ndungi, On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
Speaking of which, do we have social scientists here ? They may be of great help in designing methods of reforming social psyche.
Well, I know I may not be the best person to comment even though I have a background in Sociology. We have things known as sanctions in society, formal and informal, positive and negative. More here: https://www.boundless.com/sociology/understanding-culture/the-symbolic-natur... I will give you the example of a ``Losers mug'' in the game of golf. It is taken home by the worst performer in a tournament and it does the same job as seven years in prison would do to a petty crime or a traffic offender. This is basically to reinforce (negative) behaviour in society and reduce the repeat of actions that are frowned upon by people in ordinary circumstances. Si hata social scientists and psychologists ni scientists pia ?
These are social scientists <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_science>, they use the same forms <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_science>as the ``hard / Physical or exact Science <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exact_science>s'' although their methods / processes may not be as rigorous, which many at times cast a large shadow of doubt <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaO69CF5mbY> on their findings. Martin. I still think there is a scientific approach that would solve us these
problems and avoid us having to resort to Thor's hammer.
-- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH.
On 9 July 2013 12:23, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
How about raising the penalty to a mandatory jail term . say 5 years ? That will completely discourage people from talking on the phone while driving. How about death sentences for driving on the wrong side? My point is, there is always a severer penalty, which will supposedly end all vice forever and ever. But does it work ? There are other countries where drivers are more civil inspite of lower spot fines (which are less incoveniencing than court fines), conducting themselves much better than we do here. Perhaps we should find out how those societies got to that level of civility and try to inculcate the same here. I however admit that it is much easier to just sit back and impose a death sentence on every offence and watch the backlog of court files drastically reduce.
-- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH.
On 9 July 2013 01:51, William Muriithi <william.muriithi@gmail.com>wrote:
The issue with me is the spirit behind the amount. I dont think the amount was about safety. And whether we like it or not, this has opened up corruption more than ever. Because a typical Kenyan will reason out that paying 50k to the state is 'worse' than paying 10k or so to a cop. Will that deter the person from talking while driving? I dont know
Someone who has propensity to pay a bribe will not stop just because its cheap. They will always go that route as bribe are cheaper than fine.
However, when the fine is high, it forces the bribe to go up too. No police will take 50 Bob if the fine is 50,000. So in a way, mold the drivers as the government intended.
Muriithi
Interesting research here< http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/04/03/forget-phones-or-fast-fo... shows that becoming becoming ?lost in thought? is actually far more
dangerous than talking on the phone or texting while behind the wheel.
Again, I reiterate, I would never play down the risks associated with phone use while driving. It's just that I feel the amounts are a bit arbitrary
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Martin Akolo Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Bwana Lawi,
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Bwana Lawi <mail2lawi@gmail.com> wrote:
Does this include talking via hands-free?
Some people think that hands-free driving is not such a neat idea:
1)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/217212/hands-free-or-voice-activated...
2)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/06/12/1845226/another-study-confirms-hands...
Martin.
While I dont advocate for law breaking, some of these penalties are
pretty
harsh.
Compare https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Gichuki John Chuksjonia < chuksjonia@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why do you have to talk on phone when driving, i cant even pick, even > when its my mother. > > > > On 7/8/13, Benjamin <anangwe@gmail.com> wrote: > > ili iwe funzo > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Tony Likhanga < tlikhanga@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> Thumbs up Kevin. > >> > >> Just do the right thing. In any case the driver will most probably > never > >> forget the ordeal. > >> The fine can not be compared the risk that his act posed to the > culprit > >> and other road users. > >> > >> Tony. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> skunkworks mailing list > >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > >> ------------ > >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > >> ------------ > >> > >> Skunkworks Rules > >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > >> ------------ > >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > >> > > > > > -- > -- > Gichuki John Ndirangu, C.E.H , C.P.T.P, O.S.C.P > I.T Security Analyst and Penetration Tester > jgichuki at inbox d0t com > > {FORUM}http://lists.my.co.ke/pipermail/security/ > http://chuksjonia.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
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Hi Martin, The exactness of the "softer" sciences notwithstanding, I believe social scientists in this forum can impact the society much better than the 'hard' scientists do. We are more of bean counters lacking a view of the bigger picture, really. Thus, it would be great to see a more vibrant engagement of the "softer" sciences, much like the way TED talks have also incorporated these into their sessions. I for one could use a much needed break from the left side of my brain :-). The effect of giving Social scientists more room on skunkworks would probably be that this topic would not be marked "OT", and a more rigorous and objective exchange would ensue. You think so too ? PS : By the way, much as they are referred to as "soft" sciences I think they are very important, maybe even more important, to real world humans than our kind of science. -- Ndungi Kyalo On 9 July 2013 14:01, Martin Akolo Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Ndungi,
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
Speaking of which, do we have social scientists here ? They may be of great help in designing methods of reforming social psyche.
Well, I know I may not be the best person to comment even though I have a background in Sociology. We have things known as sanctions in society, formal and informal, positive and negative. More here: https://www.boundless.com/sociology/understanding-culture/the-symbolic-natur...
I will give you the example of a ``Losers mug'' in the game of golf. It is taken home by the worst performer in a tournament and it does the same job as seven years in prison would do to a petty crime or a traffic offender. This is basically to reinforce (negative) behaviour in society and reduce the repeat of actions that are frowned upon by people in ordinary circumstances.
Si hata social scientists and psychologists ni scientists pia ?
These are social scientists <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_science>, they use the same forms<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_science>as the ``hard / Physical or exact Science <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exact_science>s'' although their methods / processes may not be as rigorous, which many at times cast a large shadow of doubt <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaO69CF5mbY> on their findings.
Martin.
I still think there is a scientific approach that would solve us these
problems and avoid us having to resort to Thor's hammer.
-- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH.
On 9 July 2013 12:23, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
How about raising the penalty to a mandatory jail term . say 5 years ? That will completely discourage people from talking on the phone while driving. How about death sentences for driving on the wrong side? My point is, there is always a severer penalty, which will supposedly end all vice forever and ever. But does it work ? There are other countries where drivers are more civil inspite of lower spot fines (which are less incoveniencing than court fines), conducting themselves much better than we do here. Perhaps we should find out how those societies got to that level of civility and try to inculcate the same here. I however admit that it is much easier to just sit back and impose a death sentence on every offence and watch the backlog of court files drastically reduce.
-- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH.
On 9 July 2013 01:51, William Muriithi <william.muriithi@gmail.com>wrote:
The issue with me is the spirit behind the amount. I dont think the amount was about safety. And whether we like it or not, this has opened up corruption more than ever. Because a typical Kenyan will reason out that paying 50k to the state is 'worse' than paying 10k or so to a cop. Will that deter the person from talking while driving? I dont know
Someone who has propensity to pay a bribe will not stop just because its cheap. They will always go that route as bribe are cheaper than fine.
However, when the fine is high, it forces the bribe to go up too. No police will take 50 Bob if the fine is 50,000. So in a way, mold the drivers as the government intended.
Muriithi
Interesting research here< http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/04/03/forget-phones-or-fast-fo... shows that becoming becoming ?lost in thought? is actually far more
dangerous than talking on the phone or texting while behind the wheel.
Again, I reiterate, I would never play down the risks associated with phone use while driving. It's just that I feel the amounts are a bit arbitrary
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Martin Akolo Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Bwana Lawi,
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Bwana Lawi <mail2lawi@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does this include talking via hands-free? > > Some people think that hands-free driving is not such a neat idea:
1)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/217212/hands-free-or-voice-activated...
2)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/06/12/1845226/another-study-confirms-hands...
Martin.
While I dont advocate for law breaking, some of these penalties are
pretty
> harsh. > > Compare https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Gichuki John Chuksjonia < > chuksjonia@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Why do you have to talk on phone when driving, i cant even pick, even >> when its my mother. >> >> >> >> On 7/8/13, Benjamin <anangwe@gmail.com> wrote: >> > ili iwe funzo >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Tony Likhanga < tlikhanga@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Thumbs up Kevin. >> >> >> >> Just do the right thing. In any case the driver will most probably >> never >> >> forget the ordeal. >> >> The fine can not be compared the risk that his act posed to the >> culprit >> >> and other road users. >> >> >> >> Tony. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> skunkworks mailing list >> >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> >> ------------ >> >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> >> ------------ >> >> >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> >> ------------ >> >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >> >> > >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Gichuki John Ndirangu, C.E.H , C.P.T.P, O.S.C.P >> I.T Security Analyst and Penetration Tester >> jgichuki at inbox d0t com >> >> {FORUM}http://lists.my.co.ke/pipermail/security/ >> http://chuksjonia.blogspot.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
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Hello Ndungi, On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Martin,
The exactness of the "softer" sciences notwithstanding, I believe social scientists in this forum can impact the society much better than the 'hard' scientists do.
I agree with you 100%
We are more of bean counters lacking a view of the bigger picture, really. Thus, it would be great to see a more vibrant engagement of the "softer" sciences, much like the way TED talks have also incorporated these into their sessions.
There is the same need being expressed in the ``hard'' Sciences, especially by the Particle Physics community. There has been a general shift towards the merging of exact Sciences with (natural) Philosophy of late. It is believed that this is where it all started with the likes of Socrates, Plato (Aristocles), Aristotles, Crito among many others. This was before the classification of knowledge that we have now. If you think it (division of knowledge) is all kind-of artificial, you are probably right. In some classes I took when I was still in college, this concept is referred to as ``The Unity of Knowledge''. Some people like Jonathan Butterworth, a renowned Scientist working at the L.H.C did a very commendable piece on the topic. < http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/life-and-physics/2013/mar/24/higgs-philoso...
These two are also very well written articles I enjoyed reading: 1) The Philosophie of gaps < http://backreaction.blogspot.de/2013/03/the-philosophie-of-gaps.html > 2) Has Philosophy made Religion obsolote? < http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/04/has-physics-made-philo...
Martin.
I for one could use a much needed break from the left side of my brain :-). The effect of giving Social scientists more room on skunkworks would probably be that this topic would not be marked "OT", and a more rigorous and objective exchange would ensue. You think so too ?
PS : By the way, much as they are referred to as "soft" sciences I think they are very important, maybe even more important, to real world humans than our kind of science.
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 9 July 2013 14:01, Martin Akolo Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Hello Ndungi,
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
Speaking of which, do we have social scientists here ? They may be of great help in designing methods of reforming social psyche.
Well, I know I may not be the best person to comment even though I have a background in Sociology. We have things known as sanctions in society, formal and informal, positive and negative. More here: https://www.boundless.com/sociology/understanding-culture/the-symbolic-natur...
I will give you the example of a ``Losers mug'' in the game of golf. It is taken home by the worst performer in a tournament and it does the same job as seven years in prison would do to a petty crime or a traffic offender. This is basically to reinforce (negative) behaviour in society and reduce the repeat of actions that are frowned upon by people in ordinary circumstances.
Si hata social scientists and psychologists ni scientists pia ?
These are social scientists <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_science>, they use the same forms<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_science>as the ``hard / Physical or exact Science <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exact_science>s'' although their methods / processes may not be as rigorous, which many at times cast a large shadow of doubt <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaO69CF5mbY> on their findings.
Martin.
I still think there is a scientific approach that would solve us these
problems and avoid us having to resort to Thor's hammer.
-- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH.
On 9 July 2013 12:23, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
How about raising the penalty to a mandatory jail term . say 5 years ? That will completely discourage people from talking on the phone while driving. How about death sentences for driving on the wrong side? My point is, there is always a severer penalty, which will supposedly end all vice forever and ever. But does it work ? There are other countries where drivers are more civil inspite of lower spot fines (which are less incoveniencing than court fines), conducting themselves much better than we do here. Perhaps we should find out how those societies got to that level of civility and try to inculcate the same here. I however admit that it is much easier to just sit back and impose a death sentence on every offence and watch the backlog of court files drastically reduce.
-- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH.
On 9 July 2013 01:51, William Muriithi <william.muriithi@gmail.com>wrote:
The issue with me is the spirit behind the amount. I dont think the amount was about safety. And whether we like it or not, this has opened up corruption more than ever. Because a typical Kenyan will reason out that paying 50k to the state is 'worse' than paying 10k or so to a cop. Will that deter the person from talking while driving? I dont know
Someone who has propensity to pay a bribe will not stop just because its cheap. They will always go that route as bribe are cheaper than fine.
However, when the fine is high, it forces the bribe to go up too. No police will take 50 Bob if the fine is 50,000. So in a way, mold the drivers as the government intended.
Muriithi
Interesting research here< http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/04/03/forget-phones-or-fast-fo... shows that becoming becoming ?lost in thought? is actually far more
dangerous than talking on the phone or texting while behind the wheel.
Again, I reiterate, I would never play down the risks associated with phone use while driving. It's just that I feel the amounts are a bit arbitrary
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Martin Akolo Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
> @Bwana Lawi, > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Bwana Lawi <mail2lawi@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Does this include talking via hands-free? >> >> Some people think that hands-free driving is not such a neat idea: > > 1) > http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/217212/hands-free-or-voice-activated... > > 2) > http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/06/12/1845226/another-study-confirms-hands... > > Martin. > > While I dont advocate for law breaking, some of these penalties are pretty >> harsh. >> >> Compare https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Gichuki John Chuksjonia < >> chuksjonia@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Why do you have to talk on phone when driving, i cant even pick, even >>> when its my mother. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 7/8/13, Benjamin <anangwe@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > ili iwe funzo >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Tony Likhanga < tlikhanga@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Thumbs up Kevin. >>> >> >>> >> Just do the right thing. In any case the driver will most probably >>> never >>> >> forget the ordeal. >>> >> The fine can not be compared the risk that his act posed to the >>> culprit >>> >> and other road users. >>> >> >>> >> Tony. >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> skunkworks mailing list >>> >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> >> ------------ >>> >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> >> ------------ >>> >> >>> >> Skunkworks Rules >>> >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> >> ------------ >>> >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> Gichuki John Ndirangu, C.E.H , C.P.T.P, O.S.C.P >>> I.T Security Analyst and Penetration Tester >>> jgichuki at inbox d0t com >>> >>> {FORUM}http://lists.my.co.ke/pipermail/security/ >>> http://chuksjonia.blogspot.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> skunkworks mailing list >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >>> ------------ >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >>> ------------ >>> >>> Skunkworks Rules >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >>> ------------ >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> > > > _______________________________________________ > skunkworks mailing list > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > ------------ > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > ------------ > > Skunkworks Rules > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > ------------ > Other services @ http://my.co.ke >
A lot of behavioural changes in a society are dependent on the quality of life in the society - If the quality of life is higher, then the majority of the populace do behave more responsible IMHO - A lot of these issues in Kenya will die out slowly as you uplift the lowliest in the society. ./Ok3ch On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Martin Akolo Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Ndungi,
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Martin,
The exactness of the "softer" sciences notwithstanding, I believe social scientists in this forum can impact the society much better than the 'hard' scientists do.
I agree with you 100%
We are more of bean counters lacking a view of the bigger picture, really. Thus, it would be great to see a more vibrant engagement of the "softer" sciences, much like the way TED talks have also incorporated these into their sessions.
There is the same need being expressed in the ``hard'' Sciences, especially by the Particle Physics community. There has been a general shift towards the merging of exact Sciences with (natural) Philosophy of late. It is believed that this is where it all started with the likes of Socrates, Plato (Aristocles), Aristotles, Crito among many others. This was before the classification of knowledge that we have now. If you think it (division of knowledge) is all kind-of artificial, you are probably right.
In some classes I took when I was still in college, this concept is referred to as ``The Unity of Knowledge''. Some people like Jonathan Butterworth, a renowned Scientist working at the L.H.C did a very commendable piece on the topic. <
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/life-and-physics/2013/mar/24/higgs-philoso...
These two are also very well written articles I enjoyed reading:
1) The Philosophie of gaps < http://backreaction.blogspot.de/2013/03/the-philosophie-of-gaps.html > 2) Has Philosophy made Religion obsolote? < http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/04/has-physics-made-philo...
Martin.
I for one could use a much needed break from the left side of my brain :-). The effect of giving Social scientists more room on skunkworks would probably be that this topic would not be marked "OT", and a more rigorous and objective exchange would ensue. You think so too ?
PS : By the way, much as they are referred to as "soft" sciences I think they are very important, maybe even more important, to real world humans than our kind of science.
-- Ndungi Kyalo
On 9 July 2013 14:01, Martin Akolo Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Hello Ndungi,
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
Speaking of which, do we have social scientists here ? They may be of great help in designing methods of reforming social psyche.
Well, I know I may not be the best person to comment even though I have a background in Sociology. We have things known as sanctions in society, formal and informal, positive and negative. More here: https://www.boundless.com/sociology/understanding-culture/the-symbolic-natur...
I will give you the example of a ``Losers mug'' in the game of golf. It is taken home by the worst performer in a tournament and it does the same job as seven years in prison would do to a petty crime or a traffic offender. This is basically to reinforce (negative) behaviour in society and reduce the repeat of actions that are frowned upon by people in ordinary circumstances.
Si hata social scientists and psychologists ni scientists pia ?
These are social scientists<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_science>, they use the same forms<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_science>as the ``hard / Physical or exact Science <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exact_science>s'' although their methods / processes may not be as rigorous, which many at times cast a large shadow of doubt <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaO69CF5mbY> on their findings.
Martin.
I still think there is a scientific approach that would solve us these
problems and avoid us having to resort to Thor's hammer.
-- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH.
On 9 July 2013 12:23, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
How about raising the penalty to a mandatory jail term . say 5 years ? That will completely discourage people from talking on the phone while driving. How about death sentences for driving on the wrong side? My point is, there is always a severer penalty, which will supposedly end all vice forever and ever. But does it work ? There are other countries where drivers are more civil inspite of lower spot fines (which are less incoveniencing than court fines), conducting themselves much better than we do here. Perhaps we should find out how those societies got to that level of civility and try to inculcate the same here. I however admit that it is much easier to just sit back and impose a death sentence on every offence and watch the backlog of court files drastically reduce.
-- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH.
On 9 July 2013 01:51, William Muriithi <william.muriithi@gmail.com>wrote:
> The issue with me is the spirit behind the amount. I dont think the amount > was about safety. And whether we like it or not, this has opened up > corruption more than ever. Because a typical Kenyan will reason out that > paying 50k to the state is 'worse' than paying 10k or so to a cop. Will > that deter the person from talking while driving? I dont know >
Someone who has propensity to pay a bribe will not stop just because its cheap. They will always go that route as bribe are cheaper than fine.
However, when the fine is high, it forces the bribe to go up too. No police will take 50 Bob if the fine is 50,000. So in a way, mold the drivers as the government intended.
Muriithi
> Interesting research > here< http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/04/03/forget-phones-or-fast-fo... >shows > that becoming becoming ?lost in thought? is actually far more
> dangerous than talking on the phone or texting while behind the wheel. > > Again, I reiterate, I would never play down the risks associated with phone > use while driving. It's just that I feel the amounts are a bit arbitrary > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Martin Akolo Chiteri < > martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote: > > > @Bwana Lawi, > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Bwana Lawi <mail2lawi@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Does this include talking via hands-free? > >> > >> Some people think that hands-free driving is not such a neat idea: > > > > 1) > > http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/217212/hands-free-or-voice-activated... > > > > 2) > > http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/06/12/1845226/another-study-confirms-hands... > > > > Martin. > > > > While I dont advocate for law breaking, some of these penalties are pretty > >> harsh. > >> > >> Compare https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Gichuki John Chuksjonia < > >> chuksjonia@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Why do you have to talk on phone when driving, i cant even pick, even > >>> when its my mother. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 7/8/13, Benjamin <anangwe@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > ili iwe funzo > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Tony Likhanga < tlikhanga@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> Thumbs up Kevin. > >>> >> > >>> >> Just do the right thing. In any case the driver will most probably > >>> never > >>> >> forget the ordeal. > >>> >> The fine can not be compared the risk that his act posed to the > >>> culprit > >>> >> and other road users. > >>> >> > >>> >> Tony. > >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> skunkworks mailing list > >>> >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > >>> >> ------------ > >>> >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > >>> >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > >>> >> ------------ > >>> >> > >>> >> Skunkworks Rules > >>> >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > >>> >> ------------ > >>> >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> -- > >>> Gichuki John Ndirangu, C.E.H , C.P.T.P, O.S.C.P > >>> I.T Security Analyst and Penetration Tester > >>> jgichuki at inbox d0t com > >>> > >>> {FORUM}http://lists.my.co.ke/pipermail/security/ > >>> http://chuksjonia.blogspot.com/ > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> skunkworks mailing list > >>> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > >>> ------------ > >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > >>> ------------ > >>> > >>> Skunkworks Rules > >>> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > >>> ------------ > >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> skunkworks mailing list > >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > >> ------------ > >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > >> ------------ > >> > >> Skunkworks Rules > >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > >> ------------ > >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > skunkworks mailing list > > skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > > ------------ > > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe > > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > > ------------ > > > > Skunkworks Rules > > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 > > ------------ > > Other services @ http://my.co.ke > > >
Harsher penalties still depend on the cop to arrest you first, so you're back to the initial problem of Cops_&_Bribes. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
How about raising the penalty to a mandatory jail term . say 5 years ? That will completely discourage people from talking on the phone while driving. How about death sentences for driving on the wrong side? My point is, there is always a severer penalty, which will supposedly end all vice forever and ever. But does it work ? There are other countries where drivers are more civil inspite of lower spot fines (which are less incoveniencing than court fines), conducting themselves much better than we do here. Perhaps we should find out how those societies got to that level of civility and try to inculcate the same here. I however admit that it is much easier to just sit back and impose a death sentence on every offence and watch the backlog of court files drastically reduce.
-- Ndungi Kyalo neno.co.ke ~ Your word O Lord, lights my $PATH.
On 9 July 2013 01:51, William Muriithi <william.muriithi@gmail.com> wrote:
The issue with me is the spirit behind the amount. I dont think the amount was about safety. And whether we like it or not, this has opened up corruption more than ever. Because a typical Kenyan will reason out that paying 50k to the state is 'worse' than paying 10k or so to a cop. Will that deter the person from talking while driving? I dont know
Someone who has propensity to pay a bribe will not stop just because its cheap. They will always go that route as bribe are cheaper than fine.
However, when the fine is high, it forces the bribe to go up too. No police will take 50 Bob if the fine is 50,000. So in a way, mold the drivers as the government intended.
Muriithi
Interesting research here< http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2013/04/03/forget-phones-or-fast-fo... shows that becoming becoming ?lost in thought? is actually far more
dangerous than talking on the phone or texting while behind the wheel.
Again, I reiterate, I would never play down the risks associated with phone use while driving. It's just that I feel the amounts are a bit arbitrary
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Martin Akolo Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
@Bwana Lawi,
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Bwana Lawi <mail2lawi@gmail.com> wrote:
Does this include talking via hands-free?
Some people think that hands-free driving is not such a neat idea:
1)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/217212/hands-free-or-voice-activated...
2)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/06/12/1845226/another-study-confirms-hands...
Martin.
While I dont advocate for law breaking, some of these penalties are
pretty
harsh.
Compare https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Gichuki John Chuksjonia < chuksjonia@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have to talk on phone when driving, i cant even pick, even when its my mother.
On 7/8/13, Benjamin <anangwe@gmail.com> wrote: > ili iwe funzo > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Tony Likhanga < tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thumbs up Kevin. >> >> Just do the right thing. In any case the driver will most probably never >> forget the ordeal. >> The fine can not be compared the risk that his act posed to the culprit >> and other road users. >> >> Tony. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> skunkworks mailing list >> skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> ------------ >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> ------------ >> >> Skunkworks Rules >> http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 >> ------------ >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> >
-- -- Gichuki John Ndirangu, C.E.H , C.P.T.P, O.S.C.P I.T Security Analyst and Penetration Tester jgichuki at inbox d0t com
{FORUM}http://lists.my.co.ke/pipermail/security/ http://chuksjonia.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
_______________________________________________ skunkworks mailing list skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------
Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
participants (5)
-
Martin Akolo Chiteri -
MotoBaridi -
Ndungi Kyalo -
Okechukwu -
William Muriithi