Google's ChromeOS means losing control of data, warns GNU founder Richard Stallman
New cloud computing OS released by Google is plan to push people into 'careless computing', warns free software advocate http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/dec/14/chrome-os-richard-stal... <http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/dec/14/chrome-os-richard-stallman-warning> Google's new cloud computing<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/computing> ChromeOS looks like a plan "to push people into careless computing" by forcing them to store their data in the cloud rather than on machines directly under their control, warns Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/software> Foundation and creator of the operating system GNU. Two years ago Stallman, a computing veteran who is a strong advocate of free software via his Free Software Foundation, warned that making extensive use of cloud computing was "worse than stupidity"<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman> because it meant a loss of control of data. Now he says he is increasingly concerned about the release by Google of its ChromeOS operating system, which is based on GNU/Linux and designed to store the minimum possible data locally. Instead it relies on a data connection to link to Google's "cloud" of servers, which are at unknown locations, to store documents and other information. The risks include loss of legal rights to data if it is stored on a company's machine's rather than your own, Stallman points out: "In the US, you even lose legal rights if you store your data in a company's machines instead of your own. The police need to present you with a search warrant to get your data from you; but if they are stored in a company's server, the police can get it without showing you anything. They may not even have to give the company a search warrant." Google gave ChromeOS a "soft" launch last week<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/dec/08/google-chrome-os-unveiled-unready>, showing off aspects of the software and providing developers and some journalists with Cr-48 laptops set up to run it, while saying that it won't be widely available until mid-2011. Eric Schmidt, Google's chief executive, praised it in a blogpost<http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/cloud-computing-latest-chapter-in-epic.html>: "For me, these announcements were among the most important of my working life – demonstrating the real power of computer science to transform people's lives. It's extraordinary how very complex platforms can produce beautifully simple solutions like Chrome<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/chrome> and Chrome OS, which anyone can use from the get-go – as long as you get it right," he wrote. "As developers start playing with our beta Cr-48 Chrome OS computer, they'll see that while it's still early days it works unbelievably well. You can build everything that you used to mix and match with client software—taking full advantage of the capacity of the web." But Stallman is unimpressed. "I think that marketers like "cloud computing<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/cloud-computing>" because it is devoid of substantive meaning. The term's meaning is not substance, it's an attitude: 'Let any Tom, Dick and Harry hold your data, let any Tom, Dick and Harry do your computing for you (and control it).' Perhaps the term 'careless computing' would suit it better." He sees a creeping problem: "I suppose many people will continue moving towards careless computing, because there's a sucker born every minute. The US government may try to encourage people to place their data where the US government can seize it without showing them a search warrant, rather than in their own property. However, as long as enough of us continue keeping our data under our own control, we can still do so. And we had better do so, or the option may disappear." The accountability of cloud computing providers has come under close focus in the past fortnight after Amazon removed Wikileaks content from its EC2 cloud computing service<http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/01/wikileaks-website-cables-servers-amazon>, saying that the leaks site had breached its terms and conditions, and without offering any mediation in the dispute. Stallman only sees one aspect of ChromeOS to applaud: its GNU/Linux heritage. "In essence, Chrome OS is the GNU/Linux operating system. However, it is delivered without the usual applications, and rigged up to impede and discourage installing applications," he told the Guardian. "I'd say the problem is in the nature of the job ChromeOS is designed to do. Namely, encourage you to keep your data elsewhere, and do your computing elsewhere, instead of doing it in your own computer." • Stallman warns would-be hackers not to download the LOIC software being pushed as a method of expressing anger with sites that have acted against Wikileaks - not because he thinks the protest is wrong, but because the tool's code is not visible to the user. "It seems to me that running LOIC is the network equivalent of the protests against the tax-avoiders' stores in London. We must not allow that to constrict the right to protest," he notes. "[But] if users can't recompile it, users should not trust it." -- Pamoja e:daudi.were@gmail.com <e%3Adaudi.were@gmail.com> skype: d.were
@Daudi If ones got something to hide, don't ever put it on a computer. You may note that technology today has one single prominent purpose; traceability. Using basic cellphone software, your exact location can be traced. Your privacy data such as shopping preferences can be traced, your friends can be traced.... What's the big deal, facebook, twitter and the like is cloud computing. Data will be consolidated in cloud servers weather we like it or not. My 2 cnts. Athar
@Daudi, thanks much for the article. As usual. am expressing my thots... I'm really laughing at the moment because in a recent contribution thread I wrote that FreeWare has found a new enemy i.e Time=Total Cost of Ownership! And Cloud services is excatly that. The problem with people like Richard Stallman is that they are within a system that will only work if the economies are doing well so as to fund their visions. Uptake of their visions has a new competitor. At least he can find some consolation that down the chain NGOs' are also being used as a propoganda for Freeware so at least at that level Freeware can continue operating and spreading at a slower rate. In the meantime, well done Google on its way forward on cloud computing. :-)
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 6:03 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
...
I wrote that FreeWare has found a new enemy i.e Time=Total Cost of
Ownership!is excatly that. The problem with people like Richard Stallman is that they are within a system that will only work if the economies are doing well so as to fund their visions. ...
You obviously don't understand Richard Stallman's, and the Free Software Foundation's cause: < http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Freeware>. Joseph.
On 14 December 2010 18:03, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote: ...
In the meantime, well done Google on its way forward on cloud computing. :-)
I am interested in how you (and anyone else who wants to jump) operate their webmail accounts and/or any Google Apps account you may or may not have. Do you download the emails (pop/imap) on to a local machine or do you leave them in the cloud? -- Pamoja e:daudi.were@gmail.com <e%3Adaudi.were@gmail.com> skype: d.were
@Joseph, bear with my argument below about Freeware. Free things that make sense, an case for agrument: - I want a rent free house and business premises. - I want free fuel for my car, free maintainence and free everything - I want free high level education - I want free medical access and free treatment - I want to trave freely, not have to deal with borders and "why are you here?" - I want free telecommunciation services - I dont want to pay for utilities such as water and electricity - I dont want to pay for a toshiba qosmio. Please tell me why software free? Rgds.
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 7:51 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Joseph, bear with my argument below about Freeware.
Free things that make sense, an case for agrument:
- I want a rent free house and business premises. - I want free fuel for my car, free maintainence and free everything - I want free high level education - I want free medical access and free treatment - I want to trave freely, not have to deal with borders and "why are you here?" - I want free telecommunciation services - I dont want to pay for utilities such as water and electricity - I dont want to pay for a toshiba qosmio.
Please tell me why software free?
Rgds.
The "free" in "free software" that Richard Stallman and the Free Software Foundation talk about, refers to *freedom*, not zero cost. Here's their definition: <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html>, and much more: < http://www.fsf.org/>. Joseph.
@Joseph, how did software become free? Why not free beer as the link below suggests. Just like the Ocean pirates and if I was the investigation person, I'd start with the money trail and see how a global asset such as software became free? Who funds it and do the well-wishers in the system benefit at all through financial re-imbursements or business representations of any kind or is the tax laws of countries been twisted to fund such ops. The freeware that is being fed to the world may have more deeper roots in financial systems worldwide. For example, we know google is free but funds itself in ads etc. What about the rest? On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Joseph Wayodi <jwayodi@gmail.com> wrote:
The "free" in "free software" that Richard Stallman and the Free Software Foundation talk about, refers to *freedom*, not zero cost. Here's their definition: <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html>, and much more: < http://www.fsf.org/>.
Joseph.
@Daudi, does it really matter? When I asked the same question about Mocality and its data services, it seemed not to bother any of its 60,000 users so why should the google cloud bother us at all? I think Stallman is out to justify his own existence as part of the freeware system because now google will reduce other dependencies and need for services. Me thots On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 7:19 PM, Daudi Were <daudi.were@gmail.com> wrote:
I am interested in how you (and anyone else who wants to jump) operate their webmail accounts and/or any Google Apps account you may or may not have. Do you download the emails (pop/imap) on to a local machine or do you leave them in the cloud?
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:02 PM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Daudi, does it really matter? When I asked the same question about Mocality and its data services, it seemed not to bother any of its 60,000 users so why should the google cloud bother us at all? I think Stallman is out to justify his own existence as part of the freeware system because now google will reduce other dependencies and need for services. Me thots
The question is not that whether it bothers the majority ... the majority as we know is foolish -- the exhibitionism promoted by facebook, myspace etc is a good example of that. The question is are you bothered by it ? would you put your personal, critical, vital data on a third party service over which you have no control over anything ...even over the data you delete ... and the possibility that they can arbitrarily shut down your access to your data (even if you opt for the paid service). If you have so much trust in a data hostage / ransom environment ... go ahead no one is stopping you.
@Ashok, lets take a small diversion today. At around 2pm local time there is the ICC webcast and the link already known, lets see if there is any inbound traffic blocks via the main undersea trunks.....Maybe we will better be able to distinguish between sensitive data and normal data on the cloud. If anyone feels that they could not reach the webcast or the links have changed, kindly share so we too can follow the developments. Rgds. On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Ashok Hariharan <ashok@parliaments.info>wrote:
The question is not that whether it bothers the majority ... the majority as we know is foolish -- the exhibitionism promoted by facebook, myspace etc is a good example of that. The question is are you bothered by it ? would you put your personal, critical, vital data on a third party service over which you have no control over anything ...even over the data you delete ... and the possibility that they can arbitrarily shut down your access to your data (even if you opt for the paid service). If you have so much trust in a data hostage / ransom environment ... go ahead no one is stopping you.
Aki, The other day I was having a candid discussion on this data issue with one chief executive of a known bank, and frankly, he was of the feeling their data will be safe at Google than at the Barclays Plaza where its stored by AK. He was candid that there's nothing of value that will be stored on the "cloud" that they don't store locally and is general knowledge. So basically people will adopt the cloud eventually as the net speeds improve over time. I am just thinking how my peers embraced DOS with fanfare. Thats before Windows/Linux/Unix became what it is today. Peter On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, aki <aki275@gmail.com> wrote:
@Ashok, lets take a small diversion today. At around 2pm local time there is the ICC webcast and the link already known, lets see if there is any inbound traffic blocks via the main undersea trunks.....Maybe we will better be able to distinguish between sensitive data and normal data on the cloud. If anyone feels that they could not reach the webcast or the links have changed, kindly share so we too can follow the developments.
Rgds.
For clarification, apparently this is what he said Richard Stallman criticises Chrome OS [image: Richard Stallman] Richard StallmanOn the occasion of the presentation of Google's Chrome OS operating system, Richard Stallman, founder of the GNU project and the Free Software Foundation <http://www.fsf.org/> (FSF), has reiterated his criticism of cloud computing. As Stallman told<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/dec/14/chrome-os-richard-stallman-warning> the *Guardian* newspaper, people are being taught "careless computing"; they are simply not as careful when their documents and other information are stored on third-party servers instead of on devices under their own control. He says there are also legal risks, for instance when users in the US lose access control to their data in the cloud because authorities have stepped in. Two years ago, Stallman also told<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman> the *Guardian* that cloud computing could make users more vendor-dependent and increase costs because it forces users to give control of their information to third parties. Chrome OS, which Googlepresented<http://www.h-online.com/news/item/Google-previews-Chrome-OS-Cloud-computing-but-without-touch-1149420.html> just over a week ago, locally saves only the data needed to access and navigate the cloud. Stallman fears that the US government might encourage people to store their data in the cloud so the government can have access without having to show them a warrant beforehand. For Stallman, the only thing positive about Chrome OS is that it is based on GNU / Linux, although the usual associated applications are not part of the package. The founder of the FSF also warns people not to use the LOIC<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOIC> network load software, which enables the kind of DDoS attacks currently being executed against financial service providers<http://www.h-online.com/news/item/Operation-Payback-protests-via-mouse-click-1150790.html> in connection with the publication of US documents on the WikiLeaks whistleblower platform. However, Stallman does not say that the protest against WikiLeaks opponents is wrong, but rather that LOIC source code is not open, so users should not trust the software. from http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Richard-Stallman-criticises-Chrome-OS...
Quick one, I have postfix (on ubuntu) as the main smtp facing the internet. Its already configured and is receiving nd sending mail on behalf of the domain xxx.xx.ke Now, I have another internal mail server (on the inside 192.x.x.x.) that routes internal mails and forwards external mails to the postfix server for outbound delivery. Problem: How to configure Postfix to forward inbound external(internet-based) mails to the internal mail server. Do I tweak the "transport.db" or the "virtual.db" files to get his working and how? walu.
As we leave Aki to sort out issues brought forward from another thread, the point been raised here is about whether cloud computing is as important as we are been made to perceive, and that we should be more careful of where our data is hosted . Countries like the USA may get crafty enough to have a law that requires them to view you data before you open your mouth. Is it really necessary for us to have a computer that has all the data in this "cloud" or are we been taken for a ride.
Sawa Dennis. The cloud is future because of one simple fact : Total Cost of Ownership which will allow leaner machines to be produced and less dependencies. Everyone is going to feel the impact in a few years time. TCO is going to stay around as the world's biggest economy still struggles to make it out of crashes like leahman brothers and other factors. Over and Out. :-) On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Dennis Kioko <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:
As we leave Aki to sort out issues brought forward from another thread,
the point been raised here is about whether cloud computing is as important as we are been made to perceive, and that we should be more careful of where our data is hosted . Countries like the USA may get crafty enough to have a law that requires them to view you data before you open your mouth.
Is it really necessary for us to have a computer that has all the data in this "cloud" or are we been taken for a ride.
As an individual, what is your TCO given a CR-48 vs a standard Compaq Notebook? What happens when the US decides that Aki Kenya Limited funded a terrorist organization called Wikileaks and therefore Google and Microsoft should hand in data stored by AKL for their perusal .
In my opinion, my TCO is simple. Build on the cloud because it is the future of all systems. Even if I left the data local, what guarantee do I have that should I ever have access to sensitive govt data will I be guaranteed my personal safety, forget about silly things like DOS attacks on a site? Even you know the answer to this...Mr Wikileaks is still unharmed in the UK. Have you seen any unmarked landrovers rotating the jamaa from station to station while the family is denied access to his whereabouts, or a judge who is forcing the police commissioner to produce the gentleman in court because his family fear for his life? There's a big difference between such matters. Me thots. :-) On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:48 PM, Dennis Kioko <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:
As an individual, what is your TCO given a CR-48 vs a standard Compaq Notebook? What happens when the US decides that Aki Kenya Limited funded a terrorist organization called Wikileaks and therefore Google and Microsoft should hand in data stored by AKL for their perusal .
Point there, to summarize what i have not yet posted here; I think European countries have better laws than the US when it comes to hosting data, esp Sweden. If possible, encrypt what goes to the cloud,
Cr-48 is running Ubuntu. it can Dual Boot everybody get back to work!!! On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Dennis Kioko <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:
Point there, to summarize what i have not yet posted here;
I think European countries have better laws than the US when it comes to hosting data, esp Sweden. If possible, encrypt what goes to the cloud,
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Hi, I think cloud is the future but bearing in mind that google sniff around (as we already know) it becomes a question of security. im not sure its suited for highly sensitive information systems. Cost of ownership for me will mainly be on the hardware side. My thots. Luke
Google is not the problem, government and the people who make up the same are
participants (10)
-
aki -
Ashok Hariharan -
Athar Ahmad Bhatti -
Daudi Were -
Dennis Kioko -
Joseph Wayodi -
Luke Kuvheya -
Muoki Maingi -
Peter Osotsi -
Walubengo J