Good morning Skunkworks Thanks to Kenya Power we may be completely unproductive today. The problem is not a lack of power, but crazy power fluctuations. This morning things seem especially bad with the power flickering on and 3 to 4 times a minute. And the fluctuations seem “stronger” than usual as normally our UPSes can handle the fluctuations pretty well but today they seem to be struggling. This means computers turn off every minute as the power fluctuates. Assuming each UPS is protecting one desktop: 1. What VA should we be looking for in a UPS to counter this? 2. Some people suggest VA 650 and above others VA 750 and above, does this make any difference? 3. Is VA what we should be looking at when buying a UPS or something else? Another strange thing. This problem seems to affect different sectors of the office randomly. For example last week Comp A connected to UPS A would turn off each time the power fluctuated, while Comp B connected to UPS B would be fine. Today Comp A connected to UPS A is fine however Comp B connected to UPS B is now going down every minute. The computers are in different rooms. Does this make any sense? Apart from gremlins/ghosts/ninja turtles what could cause this randomness? Thanks D -- Pamoja e:daudi.were@gmail.com <e%3Adaudi.were@gmail.com> skype: d.were
There is a difference in the two UPSs. The higher the rating in VA the more power can be provided to yo PC so it lasts longer. Just multiply that value with the power factor of your UPS for APC its about 0.6 to get power in watts. For the reboots its the circuits in the UPS that are giving in. Where are you located? I noticed some of my routers in upperhill are rebooting especially yesterday.
David, You probably need to clarify how the office is wired. Seems to me like each ups is sitting on a different power source (different phase and different breakers). It's common with kplc in cases of 3 phase supplies to have a brown/blackout on one phase only. some ups have high voltage sensitivity and transfer capabilities that makes them capapble of working with a varying input voltage including brownouts. When selecting a ups, count your pc's determine how much runtime u want then go for it. In the long run it's easier t handle 1 big ups instead of many small ones. but a 650va ups on a desktop pc is just enough time to finish up and shutdown safely. hth Ken On 15 November 2010 08:05, Job Muriuki <muriukin@gmail.com> wrote:
There is a difference in the two UPSs. The higher the rating in VA the more power can be provided to yo PC so it lasts longer. Just multiply that value with the power factor of your UPS for APC its about 0.6 to get power in watts. For the reboots its the circuits in the UPS that are giving in. Where are you located? I noticed some of my routers in upperhill are rebooting especially yesterday.
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Thanks guys So if I understand correctly: 1. a higher VA power will give me more time to back up etc if power fails completely 2. my situation where the comps reboot each time the power fluctuates in probably because the UPS circuits are damaged and nothing to do with the VA power of the UPS 3. Therefore to deal with my situation I should be looking for a UPS with extra strong circuits rather than higher VA? On 15 November 2010 09:02, Kenneth Ndirangu <kendirangu@gmail.com> wrote:
David,
You probably need to clarify how the office is wired. Seems to me like each ups is sitting on a different power source (different phase and different breakers). It's common with kplc in cases of 3 phase supplies to have a brown/blackout on one phase only.
some ups have high voltage sensitivity and transfer capabilities that makes them capapble of working with a varying input voltage including brownouts.
When selecting a ups, count your pc's determine how much runtime u want then go for it. In the long run it's easier t handle 1 big ups instead of many small ones. but a 650va ups on a desktop pc is just enough time to finish up and shutdown safely.
hth Ken
On 15 November 2010 08:05, Job Muriuki <muriukin@gmail.com> wrote:
There is a difference in the two UPSs. The higher the rating in VA the more power can be provided to yo PC so it lasts longer. Just multiply that value with the power factor of your UPS for APC its about 0.6 to get power in watts. For the reboots its the circuits in the UPS that are giving in. Where are you located? I noticed some of my routers in upperhill are rebooting especially yesterday.
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-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The child is afraid of the dark, the adult afraid of the light, Who is more foolish ? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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-- Pamoja e:daudi.were@gmail.com <e%3Adaudi.were@gmail.com> skype: d.were
Thats right Daudi. Alvin On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Daudi Were <daudi.were@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks guys So if I understand correctly:
a higher VA power will give me more time to back up etc if power fails completely my situation where the comps reboot each time the power fluctuates in probably because the UPS circuits are damaged and nothing to do with the VA power of the UPS Therefore to deal with my situation I should be looking for a UPS with extra strong circuits rather than higher VA?
On 15 November 2010 09:02, Kenneth Ndirangu <kendirangu@gmail.com> wrote:
David,
You probably need to clarify how the office is wired. Seems to me like each ups is sitting on a different power source (different phase and different breakers). It's common with kplc in cases of 3 phase supplies to have a brown/blackout on one phase only.
some ups have high voltage sensitivity and transfer capabilities that makes them capapble of working with a varying input voltage including brownouts.
When selecting a ups, count your pc's determine how much runtime u want then go for it. In the long run it's easier t handle 1 big ups instead of many small ones. but a 650va ups on a desktop pc is just enough time to finish up and shutdown safely.
hth Ken
On 15 November 2010 08:05, Job Muriuki <muriukin@gmail.com> wrote:
There is a difference in the two UPSs. The higher the rating in VA the more power can be provided to yo PC so it lasts longer. Just multiply that value with the power factor of your UPS for APC its about 0.6 to get power in watts. For the reboots its the circuits in the UPS that are giving in. Where are you located? I noticed some of my routers in upperhill are rebooting especially yesterday.
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-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The child is afraid of the dark, the adult afraid of the light, Who is more foolish ? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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-- Pamoja
e:daudi.were@gmail.com skype: d.were
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Hi David, there is one other option i see. The types of UPS in the market can fall in two broad categories. 1. line interactive 2. online i work with DELTA UPSes and they are the latter type. the difference? online UPSes allow power to go through the UPS into the equipment whether or not the mains are working while line interactive kick in once power fails (blackout, brownout etc....) line interactive UPSes therefore usually need a few seconds to minutes to kick in unlike the online UPSes which just switch supply to battery and continue working without effect. no dip in power, no flickering. add to this the double conversion technology available in such system and you get filtered/Clean power free of spikes and noise....... i suggest, you look for an online double conversion ups of the same rating. one last point, to get extended back up time does not necessarily require a bigger ups. if the UPSes you have serve your requirements then than is the right size of ups for you. what you need is to dimension a battery bank that can support longer back up. that,s my take! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:30:41 +0300 From: daudi.were@gmail.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Power fluctuations and UPSes Thanks guysSo if I understand correctly:a higher VA power will give me more time to back up etc if power fails completely my situation where the comps reboot each time the power fluctuates in probably because the UPS circuits are damaged and nothing to do with the VA power of the UPSTherefore to deal with my situation I should be looking for a UPS with extra strong circuits rather than higher VA? On 15 November 2010 09:02, Kenneth Ndirangu <kendirangu@gmail.com> wrote: David, You probably need to clarify how the office is wired. Seems to me like each ups is sitting on a different power source (different phase and different breakers). It's common with kplc in cases of 3 phase supplies to have a brown/blackout on one phase only. some ups have high voltage sensitivity and transfer capabilities that makes them capapble of working with a varying input voltage including brownouts. When selecting a ups, count your pc's determine how much runtime u want then go for it. In the long run it's easier t handle 1 big ups instead of many small ones. but a 650va ups on a desktop pc is just enough time to finish up and shutdown safely. hth Ken On 15 November 2010 08:05, Job Muriuki <muriukin@gmail.com> wrote: There is a difference in the two UPSs. The higher the rating in VA the more power can be provided to yo PC so it lasts longer. Just multiply that value with the power factor of your UPS for APC its about 0.6 to get power in watts. For the reboots its the circuits in the UPS that are giving in.Where are you located? I noticed some of my routers in upperhill are rebooting especially yesterday. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The child is afraid of the dark, the adult afraid of the light, Who is more foolish ? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke -- Pamoja e:daudi.were@gmail.com skype: d.were _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
@Hellen. You said that i can add a battery bank. I have a question, a 650VA has 7AH battery, if i was to replace it with a 100AH battery or more would the UPS meltdown due to heat generated by extended operationi or it will be just fine? On 16/11/2010, hellen masita <hellenmasita@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi David,
there is one other option i see.
The types of UPS in the market can fall in two broad categories. 1. line interactive 2. online
i work with DELTA UPSes and they are the latter type. the difference?
online UPSes allow power to go through the UPS into the equipment whether or not the mains are working while line interactive kick in once power fails (blackout, brownout etc....)
line interactive UPSes therefore usually need a few seconds to minutes to kick in unlike the online UPSes which just switch supply to battery and continue working without effect. no dip in power, no flickering.
add to this the double conversion technology available in such system and you get filtered/Clean power free of spikes and noise.......
i suggest, you look for an online double conversion ups of the same rating.
one last point, to get extended back up time does not necessarily require a bigger ups. if the UPSes you have serve your requirements then than is the right size of ups for you. what you need is to dimension a battery bank that can support longer back up.
that,s my take!
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:30:41 +0300 From: daudi.were@gmail.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Power fluctuations and UPSes
Thanks guysSo if I understand correctly:a higher VA power will give me more time to back up etc if power fails completely my situation where the comps reboot each time the power fluctuates in probably because the UPS circuits are damaged and nothing to do with the VA power of the UPSTherefore to deal with my situation I should be looking for a UPS with extra strong circuits rather than higher VA? On 15 November 2010 09:02, Kenneth Ndirangu <kendirangu@gmail.com> wrote:
David,
You probably need to clarify how the office is wired. Seems to me like each ups is sitting on a different power source (different phase and different breakers). It's common with kplc in cases of 3 phase supplies to have a brown/blackout on one phase only.
some ups have high voltage sensitivity and transfer capabilities that makes them capapble of working with a varying input voltage including brownouts.
When selecting a ups, count your pc's determine how much runtime u want then go for it. In the long run it's easier t handle 1 big ups instead of many small ones. but a 650va ups on a desktop pc is just enough time to finish up and shutdown safely.
hth Ken
On 15 November 2010 08:05, Job Muriuki <muriukin@gmail.com> wrote:
There is a difference in the two UPSs. The higher the rating in VA the more power can be provided to yo PC so it lasts longer. Just multiply that value with the power factor of your UPS for APC its
about 0.6 to get power in watts. For the reboots its the circuits in the UPS that are giving in.Where are you located? I noticed some of my routers in upperhill are rebooting especially yesterday.
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-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The child is afraid of the dark,
the adult afraid of the light,
Who is more foolish ? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_______________________________________________
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-- Pamoja
e:daudi.were@gmail.com
skype: d.were
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-- Sent from my mobile device Regards, Job Njogu Muriuki, Phone: (+254) - 772333075 | 736333075 Skype: heviejob | Yahoo: heviejob Address: 42665 00100 Nrb
@Job - You have to be sure the charging system can handle that kind of current...I don't think you can jump from 7AH to 100AH without mods. Haven't tried but I think something will fry in there. When it discharges though it will be fine, as long as the load you give it is within its specified limits.
@Haggai. My worry was on discharging since i will have a different charging system in place. Thanks On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Haggai Nyang <haggai.nyang@gmail.com>wrote:
@Job - You have to be sure the charging system can handle that kind of current...I don't think you can jump from 7AH to 100AH without mods. Haven't tried but I think something will fry in there.
When it discharges though it will be fine, as long as the load you give it is within its specified limits.
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-- Regards, Job Njogu Muriuki, Phone: (+254) - 772333075 | 736333075 Skype: heviejob | Yahoo: heviejob Address: 42665 00100 Nrb
You cannot change the batteries on a UPS !! It will definitely blow the charging system or motherboard. There are special UPS that you can add batteries to the bank..... Alvin On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Job Muriuki <muriukin@gmail.com> wrote:
@Haggai. My worry was on discharging since i will have a different charging system in place. Thanks
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Haggai Nyang <haggai.nyang@gmail.com> wrote:
@Job - You have to be sure the charging system can handle that kind of current...I don't think you can jump from 7AH to 100AH without mods. Haven't tried but I think something will fry in there. When it discharges though it will be fine, as long as the load you give it is within its specified limits. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Regards, Job Njogu Muriuki,
Phone: (+254) - 772333075 | 736333075 Skype: heviejob | Yahoo: heviejob
Address: 42665 00100 Nrb
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Consider getting a larger centralised UPS, or an inverter and set of batteries if you have the budget... -- With Regards, Phares Kariuki | T: +254 734 810 802 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
On 16 November 2010 10:19, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
Consider getting a larger centralised UPS, or an inverter and set of batteries if you have the budget...
Thanks for all the input, Hellen, back up time is not an issue for us as we usually get at least 5 mins with our current UPSes. The online double conversion upses you talk about sound interesting. Did you get yours locally? If so mind sharing where? Phares was investgating the centralised UPS idea this morning. I am interested in what you are implying about inverters though. Most offices I got to which have inverters also have UPSes at each computer. Are you saying that these UPSes are unneccesary if you have an invertor? Please give us some more information! OT 1: Will you Kenyans stop calling me David! OT 2: What is the official plural form for UPS? UPSes? UPSES? UPAI? UPSS? UPES :-) -- Pamoja e:daudi.were@gmail.com <e%3Adaudi.were@gmail.com> skype: d.were
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Daudi Were <daudi.were@gmail.com> wrote:
Phares was investgating the centralised UPS idea this morning. I am interested in what you are implying about inverters though. Most offices I got to which have inverters also have UPSes at each computer. Are you saying that these UPSes are unneccesary if you have an invertor? Please give us some more information!
Depends... Some of them don't have a fast enough switch over time, so what you need is the UPS's on each of the machines, while gramps tries to go live :)... If the switch over is instant, you are good. No need for a UPS... -- With Regards, Phares Kariuki | T: +254 734 810 802 | E: pkariuki@gmail.com | Twitter: kaboro | Skype: kariukiphares | B: http://www.kaboro.com/ |
Daudi, I do not think you need double online UPS as they are also very costly. These are UPS used e.g on medical Equipt in Hospitals.Centralised UPS is another way to go but also quite costly depending on number of units.How many pcs you got? I though think you should look into the KPLC issue maybe your phases are mixed up which is very common. Single and 3 phase.Your current ups are APC right? On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Daudi Were <daudi.were@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 November 2010 10:19, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:
Consider getting a larger centralised UPS, or an inverter and set of batteries if you have the budget...
Thanks for all the input, Hellen, back up time is not an issue for us as we usually get at least 5 mins with our current UPSes. The online double conversion upses you talk about sound interesting. Did you get yours locally? If so mind sharing where? Phares was investgating the centralised UPS idea this morning. I am interested in what you are implying about inverters though. Most offices I got to which have inverters also have UPSes at each computer. Are you saying that these UPSes are unneccesary if you have an invertor? Please give us some more information! OT 1: Will you Kenyans stop calling me David! OT 2: What is the official plural form for UPS? UPSes? UPSES? UPAI? UPSS? UPES :-) -- Pamoja
e:daudi.were@gmail.com skype: d.were
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in calculating the AH for the battery we consider the load current and back up time. with correct dimensioning that should not happen! it is however not advisable to use batteries with different AH ratings together. this could damage them. so since your ups has an internal battery adding a different rated battery would definitely cause trouble. additionally some UPS are not designed to support extended autonomy. those that are, can normally be ordered without batteries to allow battery bank dimensioning. (this is most likely to be done by your supplier though!) and finally, batteries have a recharged time limit to avoid damage! so, such a small UPS would require an external charger to protect the batteries. the limit is usually around 8 to 10 hours. Recommendation. Get a slighly bigger UPS i suggest 1 KVA. from this range, extended autonomy is usually possible from my experience. A battery Bank with 26 AH batteries would give about 1 back up time at full load. Actually a little longer. For this range of batteries the UPS should be able to recharge without requirement for external charger. please note: ensure that you determine the input voltage requirement of the UPS so as to get the correct no. batteries. 1 KVA can back-up, up to 4 computers. and remember to get the online UPS to avoid feeling the black outs and brownouts etc....:)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 09:02:36 +0300 From: muriukin@gmail.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: [Skunkworks] Power fluctuations and UPSes
@Hellen. You said that i can add a battery bank. I have a question, a 650VA has 7AH battery, if i was to replace it with a 100AH battery or more would the UPS meltdown due to heat generated by extended operationi or it will be just fine?
On 16/11/2010, hellen masita <hellenmasita@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi David,
there is one other option i see.
The types of UPS in the market can fall in two broad categories. 1. line interactive 2. online
i work with DELTA UPSes and they are the latter type. the difference?
online UPSes allow power to go through the UPS into the equipment whether or not the mains are working while line interactive kick in once power fails (blackout, brownout etc....)
line interactive UPSes therefore usually need a few seconds to minutes to kick in unlike the online UPSes which just switch supply to battery and continue working without effect. no dip in power, no flickering.
add to this the double conversion technology available in such system and you get filtered/Clean power free of spikes and noise.......
i suggest, you look for an online double conversion ups of the same rating.
one last point, to get extended back up time does not necessarily require a bigger ups. if the UPSes you have serve your requirements then than is the right size of ups for you. what you need is to dimension a battery bank that can support longer back up.
that,s my take!
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:30:41 +0300 From: daudi.were@gmail.com To: skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Power fluctuations and UPSes
Thanks guysSo if I understand correctly:a higher VA power will give me more time to back up etc if power fails completely my situation where the comps reboot each time the power fluctuates in probably because the UPS circuits are damaged and nothing to do with the VA power of the UPSTherefore to deal with my situation I should be looking for a UPS with extra strong circuits rather than higher VA? On 15 November 2010 09:02, Kenneth Ndirangu <kendirangu@gmail.com> wrote:
David,
You probably need to clarify how the office is wired. Seems to me like each ups is sitting on a different power source (different phase and different breakers). It's common with kplc in cases of 3 phase supplies to have a brown/blackout on one phase only.
some ups have high voltage sensitivity and transfer capabilities that makes them capapble of working with a varying input voltage including brownouts.
When selecting a ups, count your pc's determine how much runtime u want then go for it. In the long run it's easier t handle 1 big ups instead of many small ones. but a 650va ups on a desktop pc is just enough time to finish up and shutdown safely.
hth Ken
On 15 November 2010 08:05, Job Muriuki <muriukin@gmail.com> wrote:
There is a difference in the two UPSs. The higher the rating in VA the more power can be provided to yo PC so it lasts longer. Just multiply that value with the power factor of your UPS for APC its
about 0.6 to get power in watts. For the reboots its the circuits in the UPS that are giving in.Where are you located? I noticed some of my routers in upperhill are rebooting especially yesterday.
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Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The child is afraid of the dark,
the adult afraid of the light,
Who is more foolish ? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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-- Pamoja
e:daudi.were@gmail.com
skype: d.were
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
-- Sent from my mobile device
Regards, Job Njogu Muriuki,
Phone: (+254) - 772333075 | 736333075 Skype: heviejob | Yahoo: heviejob
Address: 42665 00100 Nrb _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke
participants (7)
-
Alvin Jason Ochieng -
Daudi Were -
Haggai Nyang -
hellen masita -
Job Muriuki -
Kenneth Ndirangu -
Phares Kariuki