I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash. So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch. This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs. Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with. o_O!
Wesley .....this has always been there,though i have never tried it. When under distress key in your PIN in reverse order. The balance will be a fraction of your total. I understand it's a std for all ATMs. On 07/10/2009, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash.
So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch.
This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs.
Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with.
o_O!
Jared my friend, there is no such thing. That reverse PIN business is nothing but an urban legend http://www.snopes.com/business/bank/pinalert.asp As On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 9:04 AM, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote:
Wesley .....this has always been there,though i have never tried it. When under distress key in your PIN in reverse order. The balance will be a fraction of your total. I understand it's a std for all ATMs.
On 07/10/2009, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash.
So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch.
This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs.
Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with.
o_O!
LOL, How come I've never been told this? I have ATM cards from several major banks and I definately cannot recall them telling me that this is possible. Since I've never had anyone else mention this (which means the banks haven't told them) I can only assume that these Banks know of a flaw in that technique or their ATMs don't support it. O_O! --- On Wed, 10/7/09, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> wrote: From: Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Guardin against ATM thefts To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 9:04 AM Wesley .....this has always been there,though i have never tried it. When under distress key in your PIN in reverse order. The balance will be a fraction of your total. I understand it's a std for all ATMs. On 07/10/2009, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash.
So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch.
This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs.
Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with.
o_O!
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Another solution is to have two bank accounts in the same bank. One should be the main account that has a large sum of money, while the secondary account has a small amount of money. You then leave the ATM for the primary account at home and walk around with the secondary account ATM. You then use mobile electronic transfer to transfer a "safe" sum of money from primary to secondary account. This way, only the "safe" amount will be at risk. 2009/10/7 wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>
LOL,
How come I've never been told this? I have ATM cards from several major banks and I definately cannot recall them telling me that this is possible. Since I've never had anyone else mention this (which means the banks haven't told them) I can only assume that these Banks know of a flaw in that technique or their ATMs don't support it.
O_O!
--- On *Wed, 10/7/09, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com>* wrote:
From: Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Guardin against ATM thefts To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 9:04 AM
Wesley .....this has always been there,though i have never tried it. When under distress key in your PIN in reverse order. The balance will be a fraction of your total. I understand it's a std for all ATMs.
On 07/10/2009, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1120.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>> wrote:
I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash.
So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch.
This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs.
Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with.
o_O!
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If you opt for two accounts in the same bank, then you'Ll have to pay twice for fees and there is a likelihood that the secondary account will go to -ve. Maybe have a synchronized system in the bank where a discreet panic button is on the keypads, and when pressed, it disables all ATMs in the lobby, 'swallows' the card from where the panic came, alarm goes off and all door close. A camera can come in handy to stop an ATM from working if two people go to make a withdrawal but not on deposits. On 07/10/2009, Dennis Kioko <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:
Another solution is to have two bank accounts in the same bank. One should be the main account that has a large sum of money, while the secondary account has a small amount of money. You then leave the ATM for the primary account at home and walk around with the secondary account ATM. You then use mobile electronic transfer to transfer a "safe" sum of money from primary to secondary account. This way, only the "safe" amount will be at risk.
2009/10/7 wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>
LOL,
How come I've never been told this? I have ATM cards from several major banks and I definately cannot recall them telling me that this is possible. Since I've never had anyone else mention this (which means the banks haven't told them) I can only assume that these Banks know of a flaw in that technique or their ATMs don't support it.
O_O!
--- On *Wed, 10/7/09, Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com>* wrote:
From: Jared Koyier <jaredkoyier@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Guardin against ATM thefts To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 9:04 AM
Wesley .....this has always been there,though i have never tried it. When under distress key in your PIN in reverse order. The balance will be a fraction of your total. I understand it's a std for all ATMs.
On 07/10/2009, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1120.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>> wrote:
I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash.
So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch.
This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs.
Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with.
o_O!
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-- with Regards:
Corruption in Kenya, a brief look at causes and an insane solution: all at my blog: http://gramware.blogspot.com
-- Solomon Mburu P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041 Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will graze all the same way to the side of a hill! AND It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous generosity! http://desires-and-dreams.blogspot.com https://smiley2.wordpress.com www.takingitglobal.org/mburu
Very interesting idea. This will only work if both PINs never show the same amount (regardless of the order in which they were used), otherwise someone can figure out whether you fooled them by using the distress PIN, in which case they'll just shoot you. Here's why: - Let's say the distress balance is set at 10% of the real balance. For a real balance of 10K, the distress balance is 1K. - if I use the distress PIN first, I'll only see a balance of 1K (the distress balance), as opposed to the real balance of 10K (according to Wesley's idea). - if I then immediately use the real PIN (without withdrawing), it should *not* also show me 1K. If it does, someone will then know that this second PIN is the real one. Another sum, not the real balance, should be shown. Perhaps 10% of the distress PIN (it wouldn't make sense to show a balance greater than or equal to the distress PIN). If the balances shown are ever the same (real balance = distress balance) then one can deduce the real PIN simply by swapping the PINs without withdrawing anything. saidi On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:57 AM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>wrote:
I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash.
So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch.
This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs.
Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with.
o_O!
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Guys, Remember, thugs have bank accounts too.. OK, I guess most do, and so they would know about the two-PIN thing. So if I am a thug and we went to your ATM together, once you entered your PIN and it showed like Sh. 350/- only, I wouldn't get disapointed and go home but instead, I would ask you to enter your PIN 2 or else I pluck out your teeth... :-S Me. 2009/10/7 saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com>
Very interesting idea. This will only work if both PINs never show the same amount (regardless of the order in which they were used), otherwise someone can figure out whether you fooled them by using the distress PIN, in which case they'll just shoot you.
Here's why:
- Let's say the distress balance is set at 10% of the real balance. For a real balance of 10K, the distress balance is 1K. - if I use the distress PIN first, I'll only see a balance of 1K (the distress balance), as opposed to the real balance of 10K (according to Wesley's idea). - if I then immediately use the real PIN (without withdrawing), it should *not* also show me 1K. If it does, someone will then know that this second PIN is the real one. Another sum, not the real balance, should be shown. Perhaps 10% of the distress PIN (it wouldn't make sense to show a balance greater than or equal to the distress PIN).
If the balances shown are ever the same (real balance = distress balance) then one can deduce the real PIN simply by swapping the PINs without withdrawing anything.
saidi
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:57 AM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>wrote:
I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash.
So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch.
This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs.
Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with.
o_O!
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-- שִׁמְעוֹן
Simon, wesley's point is that you wouldn't know which was PIN1 and which was PIN2. And if the system was implemented well you would never know. So it wouldn't matter if the thugs knew such a system was in place, they still wouldn't be able to beat it. On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Simon Mbuthia <simon.mbuthia@gmail.com>wrote:
Guys,
Remember, thugs have bank accounts too.. OK, I guess most do, and so they would know about the two-PIN thing. So if I am a thug and we went to your ATM together, once you entered your PIN and it showed like Sh. 350/- only, I wouldn't get disapointed and go home but instead, I would ask you to enter your PIN 2 or else I pluck out your teeth... :-S
Me.
2009/10/7 saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com>
Very interesting idea.
This will only work if both PINs never show the same amount (regardless of the order in which they were used), otherwise someone can figure out whether you fooled them by using the distress PIN, in which case they'll just shoot you.
Here's why:
- Let's say the distress balance is set at 10% of the real balance. For a real balance of 10K, the distress balance is 1K. - if I use the distress PIN first, I'll only see a balance of 1K (the distress balance), as opposed to the real balance of 10K (according to Wesley's idea). - if I then immediately use the real PIN (without withdrawing), it should *not* also show me 1K. If it does, someone will then know that this second PIN is the real one. Another sum, not the real balance, should be shown. Perhaps 10% of the distress PIN (it wouldn't make sense to show a balance greater than or equal to the distress PIN).
If the balances shown are ever the same (real balance = distress balance) then one can deduce the real PIN simply by swapping the PINs without withdrawing anything.
saidi
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:57 AM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>wrote:
I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash.
So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch.
This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs.
Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with.
o_O!
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While they are at it, may be they should also implement fingerprint and iris scanners at the ATMs which can be compared with a biometrics database when the second PIN is used. So you just give your thug the PIN and tell him/her to type away.
Who would have time to argue or reason with a thug? If technology were let to do most of the talking, it would save a life. BTW, the more advancements there are, the more thugs become advanced! On 07/10/2009, Philip Musyoki <pmusyoki@gmail.com> wrote:
While they are at it, may be they should also implement fingerprint and iris scanners at the ATMs which can be compared with a biometrics database when the second PIN is used. So you just give your thug the PIN and tell him/her to type away. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- Solomon Mburu P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041 Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will graze all the same way to the side of a hill! AND It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous generosity! http://desires-and-dreams.blogspot.com https://smiley2.wordpress.com www.takingitglobal.org/mburu
all, Consider there are also cases where they hold you hostage and ask you to give them your pin. The deal is you either give the right PIN or they kill you. How would the 2 PIN model help in such a case. Simon Mbuthia wrote:
Guys,
Remember, thugs have bank accounts too.. OK, I guess most do, and so they would know about the two-PIN thing. So if I am a thug and we went to your ATM together, once you entered your PIN and it showed like Sh. 350/- only, I wouldn't get disapointed and go home but instead, I would ask you to enter your PIN 2 or else I pluck out your teeth... :-S
Me.
2009/10/7 saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com <mailto:saidimu@gmail.com>>
Very interesting idea.
This will only work if both PINs never show the same amount (regardless of the order in which they were used), otherwise someone can figure out whether you fooled them by using the distress PIN, in which case they'll just shoot you.
Here's why:
- Let's say the distress balance is set at 10% of the real balance. For a real balance of 10K, the distress balance is 1K. - if I use the distress PIN first, I'll only see a balance of 1K (the distress balance), as opposed to the real balance of 10K (according to Wesley's idea). - if I then immediately use the real PIN (without withdrawing), it should *not* also show me 1K. If it does, someone will then know that this second PIN is the real one. Another sum, not the real balance, should be shown. Perhaps 10% of the distress PIN (it wouldn't make sense to show a balance greater than or equal to the distress PIN).
If the balances shown are ever the same (real balance = distress balance) then one can deduce the real PIN simply by swapping the PINs without withdrawing anything.
saidi
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:57 AM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com <mailto:kiriinya2000@yahoo.com>> wrote:
I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash.
So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch.
This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs.
Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with.
o_O!
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- if I then immediately use the real PIN (without withdrawing), it should *not* also show me 1K. If it does, someone will then know that this second PIN is the real one. Another sum, not the real balance, should be shown. Perhaps 10% of the distress PIN (it wouldn't make sense to show a balance greater than or equal to the distress PIN).
I think what Wesley means is that after the reverse/distress PIN has been used, it doesnt matter what other permutation of the PIN is used; the system smells a thug and from then on only shows the balance to be 10% of the victim's real balance. But then again this would work only if the thugs themselves are not familiar with the security measure. -- Ndungi Kyalo "If you want to go fast go alone, if you want to go far get Company" biblia.kenya.or.ke
on this reverse PIN idea, what happens if I have a PIN of say 2882? On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Ndungi Kyalo <ndungi@gmail.com> wrote:
- if I then immediately use the real PIN (without withdrawing), it should *not* also show me 1K. If it does, someone will then know that this second PIN is the real one. Another sum, not the real balance, should be shown. Perhaps 10% of the distress PIN (it wouldn't make sense to show a balance greater than or equal to the distress PIN).
I think what Wesley means is that after the reverse/distress PIN has been used, it doesnt matter what other permutation of the PIN is used; the system smells a thug and from then on only shows the balance to be 10% of the victim's real balance. But then again this would work only if the thugs themselves are not familiar with the security measure.
-- Ndungi Kyalo
"If you want to go fast go alone, if you want to go far get Company" biblia.kenya.or.ke
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@Saidi: I like your thinking, but I'll take your 2 cents and raise you 1 shilling! One doesn't need to withdraw money for the ATM and bank system to recognize a distress. As soon as the PIN is used then a distress is flagged. Saidi also said: "...if I then immediately use the real PIN (without withdrawing), it should *not* also show me 1K. If it does, someone will then know that this second PIN is the real one. Another sum, not the real balance, should be shown. Perhaps 10% of the distress PIN (it wouldn't make sense to show a balance greater than or equal to the distress PIN). ..." I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. As far as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is what was shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is in the account. O_o --- On Wed, 10/7/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote: From: saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Guardin against ATM thefts To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 9:26 AM Very interesting idea. This will only work if both PINs never show the same amount (regardless of the order in which they were used), otherwise someone can figure out whether you fooled them by using the distress PIN, in which case they'll just shoot you. Here's why: - Let's say the distress balance is set at 10% of the real balance. For a real balance of 10K, the distress balance is 1K. - if I use the distress PIN first, I'll only see a balance of 1K (the distress balance), as opposed to the real balance of 10K (according to Wesley's idea). - if I then immediately use the real PIN (without withdrawing), it should *not* also show me 1K. If it does, someone will then know that this second PIN is the real one. Another sum, not the real balance, should be shown. Perhaps 10% of the distress PIN (it wouldn't make sense to show a balance greater than or equal to the distress PIN). If the balances shown are ever the same (real balance = distress balance) then one can deduce the real PIN simply by swapping the PINs without withdrawing anything. saidi On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:57 AM, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote: I believe many of us have heard of someone who was forced by thugs to go to an ATM and withdraw cash. So an idea popped. Why can't banks issue atleast 2 PINs per ATM card. If a person is forced to withdraw cash then they can use the second (distress) PIN. This PIN will let the system display that the person only has a fraction of the amount in his/her account. Once that PIN has been used, using the first PIN will not display the correct amount in the account until the person visits one of the bank's branch. This way thugs only get a fraction of the original amount. Thugs would know that a person has 2 PINs but it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they will use the right PIN. Thugs may force the person to give up his/her 2 PINs. If they use the second PIN there is no way of knowing the true amount in the person's account even if they used the first PIN. If they used the first PIN before the second PIN then it's a lucky day for the thugs. Whether use of the second PIN should generate a distress call is another issue. Atleast the above offers some way of protection for bank customers. Thugs will get away with some of the money but not as much as they could have gotten away with. o_O! _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. As far as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is what was shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is in the account.
Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if I feed in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results.
Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* less until it is reset from the banking hall. 2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer. In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2. Weakness: If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't risk proving him/them wrong On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. As far as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is what was shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is in the account.
Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if I feed in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results.
Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also? On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* less until it is reset from the banking hall.
2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer.
In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2.
Weakness: If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't risk proving him/them wrong
On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. As far as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is what was shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is in the account.
Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if I feed in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results.
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there. Tech List Kenya wrote:
Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also?
On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* less until it is reset from the banking hall.
2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer.
In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2.
Weakness: If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't risk proving him/them wrong
On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. As far as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is what was shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is in the account.
Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if I feed in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results.
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the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social. On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there.
Tech List Kenya wrote:
Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also?
On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* less until it is reset from the banking hall.
2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer.
In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2.
Weakness: If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't risk proving him/them wrong
On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. As far as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is what was shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is in the account.
Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if I feed in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results.
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The thugs have no way of telling you are lying since the system doesn't depend on the thugs being unaware of the system. They know you have 2 PINs but they can't tell which one is the real one, that is unless you have found an error in the logic presented. I don't think people have sufficiently understood wesley's idea. It is simple but is quite clever. The other ideas about having 2 accounts are impractical and prone to error (what if you mix up the balances of the 2 accounts and carry the wrong ATM card, the one with the greater balance?) saidi On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social.
On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there.
Tech List Kenya wrote:
Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also?
On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* less until it is reset from the banking hall.
2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer.
In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2.
Weakness: If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't risk proving him/them wrong
On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. As far as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is what was shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is in the account.
Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if I feed in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results.
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that's exactly my point. you cannot assume the thugs are unaware. ergo no matter which pin you enter they might assume you're trying to con them. how do you prove you're not? you could be stabbed or shot needlessly. On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
The thugs have no way of telling you are lying since the system doesn't depend on the thugs being unaware of the system. They know you have 2 PINs but they can't tell which one is the real one, that is unless you have found an error in the logic presented. I don't think people have sufficiently understood wesley's idea. It is simple but is quite clever. The other ideas about having 2 accounts are impractical and prone to error (what if you mix up the balances of the 2 accounts and carry the wrong ATM card, the one with the greater balance?)
saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social.
On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there.
Tech List Kenya wrote:
Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also?
On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* less until it is reset from the banking hall.
2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer.
In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2.
Weakness: If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't risk proving him/them wrong
On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. > As > far > as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is > what > was > shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is > in > the account. > > > Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if I feed in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results.
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If the thugs wanted to kill you it wouldn't matter what kind of money you did or did not have, so you'd be toast even without an ATM card. The assumption here is that the thugs want money, not your life (not an unreasonable assumption among a sizeable percentage of thugs, if this weren't the case there'd be a death every time someone was mugged). saidi On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
that's exactly my point. you cannot assume the thugs are unaware. ergo no matter which pin you enter they might assume you're trying to con them. how do you prove you're not? you could be stabbed or shot needlessly.
On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
The thugs have no way of telling you are lying since the system doesn't depend on the thugs being unaware of the system. They know you have 2 PINs but they can't tell which one is the real one, that is unless you have found an error in the logic presented. I don't think people have sufficiently understood wesley's idea. It is simple but is quite clever. The other ideas about having 2 accounts are impractical and prone to error (what if you mix up the balances of the 2 accounts and carry the wrong ATM card, the one with the greater balance?)
saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social.
On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there.
Tech List Kenya wrote:
Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also?
On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* less until it is reset from the banking hall.
2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer.
In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2.
Weakness: If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't risk proving him/them wrong
On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. >> As >> far >> as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is >> what >> was >> shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is >> in >> the account. >> >> >> > Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if > I > feed > in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? > As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results. > >
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I think Rad's reasoning is that the thugs wil have a reason to believe you are lying irrespective of what pin u put first. And how they react to that may not be pleasant. Another way would be for bank systems to implement time-specific Atm withdrawal limits. Then u as the customer can dictate a limit amount that can be withdrawn from 6pm to 6am, for instance. So even if you become a target, you don't lose all and the thugs have no reason to be veery mad. You will get away with a few slaps On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
If the thugs wanted to kill you it wouldn't matter what kind of money you did or did not have, so you'd be toast even without an ATM card. The assumption here is that the thugs want money, not your life (not an unreasonable assumption among a sizeable percentage of thugs, if this weren't the case there'd be a death every time someone was mugged). saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
that's exactly my point. you cannot assume the thugs are unaware. ergo no matter which pin you enter they might assume you're trying to con them. how do you prove you're not? you could be stabbed or shot needlessly.
On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
The thugs have no way of telling you are lying since the system doesn't depend on the thugs being unaware of the system. They know you have 2 PINs but they can't tell which one is the real one, that is unless you have found an error in the logic presented. I don't think people have sufficiently understood wesley's idea. It is simple but is quite clever. The other ideas about having 2 accounts are impractical and prone to error (what if you mix up the balances of the 2 accounts and carry the wrong ATM card, the one with the greater balance?)
saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social.
On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there.
Tech List Kenya wrote:
Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also?
On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: > 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* > less until it is reset from the banking hall. > > 2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer. > > In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence > thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2. > > Weakness: > If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't > risk proving him/them wrong > > On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real >>> one. >>> As >>> far >>> as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is >>> what >>> was >>> shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is >>> in >>> the account. >>> >>> >>> >> Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if >> I >> feed >> in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? >> As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results. >> >> _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
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I don't think I'm getting across. if the guy is sure you've given him all you have he'll probably let you go. if he thinks you're lying you're in serious risk of harm. with this system crooks will never be sure you're telling the truth. risk of violence and harm will increaSe. not worth it. money can be replaced. On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
If the thugs wanted to kill you it wouldn't matter what kind of money you did or did not have, so you'd be toast even without an ATM card. The assumption here is that the thugs want money, not your life (not an unreasonable assumption among a sizeable percentage of thugs, if this weren't the case there'd be a death every time someone was mugged). saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
that's exactly my point. you cannot assume the thugs are unaware. ergo no matter which pin you enter they might assume you're trying to con them. how do you prove you're not? you could be stabbed or shot needlessly.
On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
The thugs have no way of telling you are lying since the system doesn't depend on the thugs being unaware of the system. They know you have 2 PINs but they can't tell which one is the real one, that is unless you have found an error in the logic presented. I don't think people have sufficiently understood wesley's idea. It is simple but is quite clever. The other ideas about having 2 accounts are impractical and prone to error (what if you mix up the balances of the 2 accounts and carry the wrong ATM card, the one with the greater balance?)
saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social.
On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there.
Tech List Kenya wrote:
Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also?
On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: > 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* > less until it is reset from the banking hall. > > 2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer. > > In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence > thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2. > > Weakness: > If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't > risk proving him/them wrong > > On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real >>> one. >>> As >>> far >>> as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is >>> what >>> was >>> shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is >>> in >>> the account. >>> >>> >>> >> Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if >> I >> feed >> in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? >> As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results. >> >> _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
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*Another way would be for bank systems to implement time-specific Atm withdrawal limits. Then u as the customer can dictate a limit amount that can be withdrawn from 6pm to 6am, for instance.* Sounds like a good idea. -- Josiah Mugambi Stephen Leacock<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/stephen_leacock.html> - "I detest life-insurance agents: they always argue that I shall some day die, which is not so." On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't think I'm getting across. if the guy is sure you've given him all you have he'll probably let you go. if he thinks you're lying you're in serious risk of harm. with this system crooks will never be sure you're telling the truth. risk of violence and harm will increaSe. not worth it. money can be replaced.
On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
If the thugs wanted to kill you it wouldn't matter what kind of money you did or did not have, so you'd be toast even without an ATM card. The assumption here is that the thugs want money, not your life (not an unreasonable assumption among a sizeable percentage of thugs, if this weren't the case there'd be a death every time someone was mugged). saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
that's exactly my point. you cannot assume the thugs are unaware. ergo no matter which pin you enter they might assume you're trying to con them. how do you prove you're not? you could be stabbed or shot needlessly.
On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
The thugs have no way of telling you are lying since the system doesn't depend on the thugs being unaware of the system. They know you have 2 PINs but they can't tell which one is the real one, that is unless you have found an error in the logic presented. I don't think people have sufficiently understood wesley's idea. It is simple but is quite clever. The other ideas about having 2 accounts are impractical and prone to error (what if you mix up the balances of the 2 accounts and carry the wrong ATM card, the one with the greater balance?)
saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social.
On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there.
Tech List Kenya wrote: > Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? > (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also? > > On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: >> 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* >> less until it is reset from the banking hall. >> >> 2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer. >> >> In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence >> thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2. >> >> Weakness: >> If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't >> risk proving him/them wrong >> >> On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real >>>> one. >>>> As >>>> far >>>> as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is >>>> what >>>> was >>>> shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is >>>> in >>>> the account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if >>> I >>> feed >>> in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? >>> As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results. >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > Other services @ http://my.co.ke > Other lists > ------------- > Announce: > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce > Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science > kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general > >
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Isn't that true of all theft-deterrent measures? (that if the thug knows you're trying to deter them, you're toast if/when they get to you). So should that stop you from trying to deter them in the first place? On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:41 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't think I'm getting across. if the guy is sure you've given him all you have he'll probably let you go. if he thinks you're lying you're in serious risk of harm. with this system crooks will never be sure you're telling the truth. risk of violence and harm will increaSe. not worth it. money can be replaced.
On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
If the thugs wanted to kill you it wouldn't matter what kind of money you did or did not have, so you'd be toast even without an ATM card. The assumption here is that the thugs want money, not your life (not an unreasonable assumption among a sizeable percentage of thugs, if this weren't the case there'd be a death every time someone was mugged). saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
that's exactly my point. you cannot assume the thugs are unaware. ergo no matter which pin you enter they might assume you're trying to con them. how do you prove you're not? you could be stabbed or shot needlessly.
On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
The thugs have no way of telling you are lying since the system doesn't depend on the thugs being unaware of the system. They know you have 2 PINs but they can't tell which one is the real one, that is unless you have found an error in the logic presented. I don't think people have sufficiently understood wesley's idea. It is simple but is quite clever. The other ideas about having 2 accounts are impractical and prone to error (what if you mix up the balances of the 2 accounts and carry the wrong ATM card, the one with the greater balance?)
saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social.
On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there.
Tech List Kenya wrote: > Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? > (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also? > > On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: >> 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* >> less until it is reset from the banking hall. >> >> 2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer. >> >> In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence >> thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2. >> >> Weakness: >> If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't >> risk proving him/them wrong >> >> On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real >>>> one. >>>> As >>>> far >>>> as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is >>>> what >>>> was >>>> shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is >>>> in >>>> the account. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if >>> I >>> feed >>> in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? >>> As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results. >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > Other services @ http://my.co.ke > Other lists > ------------- > Announce: > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce > Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science > kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general > >
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Well, this is a largely non-tech solution, but you can go for Barclays Prestige banking, if I'm not wrong, you only need proof that you were robbed (police abstract etc), and they will reimburse whatever amounts were withdrawn.... On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 8:51 AM, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't that true of all theft-deterrent measures? (that if the thug knows you're trying to deter them, you're toast if/when they get to you). So should that stop you from trying to deter them in the first place?
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:41 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't think I'm getting across. if the guy is sure you've given him all you have he'll probably let you go. if he thinks you're lying you're in serious risk of harm. with this system crooks will never be sure you're telling the truth. risk of violence and harm will increaSe. not worth it. money can be replaced.
On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
If the thugs wanted to kill you it wouldn't matter what kind of money you did or did not have, so you'd be toast even without an ATM card. The assumption here is that the thugs want money, not your life (not an unreasonable assumption among a sizeable percentage of thugs, if this weren't the case there'd be a death every time someone was mugged). saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
that's exactly my point. you cannot assume the thugs are unaware. ergo no matter which pin you enter they might assume you're trying to con them. how do you prove you're not? you could be stabbed or shot needlessly.
On 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
The thugs have no way of telling you are lying since the system doesn't depend on the thugs being unaware of the system. They know you have 2 PINs but they can't tell which one is the real one, that is unless you have found an error in the logic presented. I don't think people have sufficiently understood wesley's idea. It is simple but is quite clever. The other ideas about having 2 accounts are impractical and prone to error (what if you mix up the balances of the 2 accounts and carry the wrong ATM card, the one with the greater balance?)
saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social.
On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote: > How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. > Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that > PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until > it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. > therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that > point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an > exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs > at > the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional > security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also > protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims > themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in > the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there. > > Tech List Kenya wrote: >> Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? >> (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also? >> >> On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: >>> 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* >>> less until it is reset from the banking hall. >>> >>> 2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer. >>> >>> In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence >>> thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2. >>> >>> Weakness: >>> If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't >>> risk proving him/them wrong >>> >>> On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>> I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real >>>>> one. >>>>> As >>>>> far >>>>> as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is >>>>> what >>>>> was >>>>> shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is >>>>> in >>>>> the account. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if >>>> I >>>> feed >>>> in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? >>>> As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results. >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Skunkworks mailing list >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke >> Other lists >> ------------- >> Announce: >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce >> Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science >> kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general >> >> > > -- > > SKYPE: sobbayi > US: +1 202 470 0525 > KE: +254 722 627 691 > > _______________________________________________ > Skunkworks mailing list > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks > Other services @ http://my.co.ke > Other lists > ------------- > Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce > Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science > kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general > _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
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Hey Saidi, you took the words from my mouth (actually my fingertips). I don't think the idea has been understood. That's why I haven't responded to most of the responses coz it will take me a whole day to break this down. However I appreciate the input, it got me thinking of one or two things that can go wrong, but can still be solved if there is will. 8~) --- On Thu, 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote: From: saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Guardin against ATM thefts To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 8:02 AM The thugs have no way of telling you are lying since the system doesn't depend on the thugs being unaware of the system. They know you have 2 PINs but they can't tell which one is the real one, that is unless you have found an error in the logic presented. I don't think people have sufficiently understood wesley's idea. It is simple but is quite clever. The other ideas about having 2 accounts are impractical and prone to error (what if you mix up the balances of the 2 accounts and carry the wrong ATM card, the one with the greater balance?) saidi On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote: the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social. On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there.
Tech List Kenya wrote:
Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also?
On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* less until it is reset from the banking hall.
2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer.
In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2.
Weakness: If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't risk proving him/them wrong
On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. As far as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is what was shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is in the account.
Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if I feed in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results.
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It is not that expensive to operate 2 bank accounts in some banks. They dont have to be the same type of account. secondly, you need a lot of talent to be at a point you cant differentiate which card belongs to what account. With mobile electronic transfer, only you know that you have 2 accounts. About robbers, they kill on hesitation, not that they set out to kill. remember the guys are not Tv robbers but guys on a life and death mission. Killing is a reflex action. If you give them less money with no outright explanation, they still kill you. dont assume all thieves are intelligent. On 08/10/2009, wesley kirinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hey Saidi, you took the words from my mouth (actually my fingertips). I don't think the idea has been understood. That's why I haven't responded to most of the responses coz it will take me a whole day to break this down.
However I appreciate the input, it got me thinking of one or two things that can go wrong, but can still be solved if there is will.
8~)
--- On Thu, 10/8/09, saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> wrote:
From: saidimu apale <saidimu@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Guardin against ATM thefts To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 8:02 AM
The thugs have no way of telling you are lying since the system doesn't depend on the thugs being unaware of the system. They know you have 2 PINs but they can't tell which one is the real one, that is unless you have found an error in the logic presented.
I don't think people have sufficiently understood wesley's idea. It is simple but is quite clever.
The other ideas about having 2 accounts are impractical and prone to error (what if you mix up the balances of the 2 accounts and carry the wrong ATM card, the one with the greater balance?)
saidi
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
the biggest flaw of all these suggestions is that thugs will be aware of these measures and might kill you even if you put the real pin first. this increases the risk for those who are cooperating. I don't think its worth the risk. let the thugs be in no doubt the balance is real. atm robbery is not a technical problem. it's social.
On 10/7/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
How about this... you put in PIN2 and it shows 10% of actual balance. Thereafter if you try and put in PIN1 it will show the same balance that PIN2 showed minus any transactions. so from the point PIN2 is used until it is reset at the bank, PIN1 will base its fake balance on PIN2. therefore its going to be hard for the thief to determine. If at that point the thug asks for a mini statement, the System can throw an exception and blame it on network problems... better still all ATMs at the same location can also be triggered to go offline... this additional security behaviors can be kept secret from general public. and also protect other users that stumble on the robbery and fall victims themselves. So the longer the thugs are busy trying to use other ATMs in the same enclosure the cops will hopefully be there.
Tech List Kenya wrote:
Just remembered, wat if thugs demand you generate a mini statement? (gun to the head, remember). Wil the anti-theft system fake this also?
On 10/7/09, Tech List Kenya <techlistkenya@gmail.com> wrote:
Gnod point @Tony. Maybe it can be done in such a way that: 1. If Pin2 is entered first, from then on the pin1 bal is *always* less until it is reset from the banking hall.
2. If pin1 is entered first, tough luck to the customer.
In other words, if put in succession, the 2nd bal wil be less hence thugs wont knw which is pin1 or 2.
Weakness: If the thug threatens that ukiweka pin2 kwanza tutajua, I wouldn't risk proving him/them wrong
On 10/7/09, Tony Likhanga <tlikhanga@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't get how someone would know the second PIN is the real one. As far as they're concerned they will see 1K for the second time, which is what was shown when the distress PIN was used first. They don't know that 10K is in the account.
Wes, I concur with Saidi. Picture this: what should be displayed if I feed in the PINs in this order; REAL->DISTRESS? As the thug, I'd simply be on the lookout for matching results.
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@Wes i think the idea is very viable and good thinking...Its Brilliant @Rad.... Remember we are all trying to solve social problems using tech..... My take, the idea jus needs willing takers and its up for grab.. The thing is, when issuing an ATM card they will ask you if u need anti-theft PIN. If you take it then yu are safe.... As for if they ask for a stmnt, there can b a dummy stmnt for use as template so long as the trxns match to the balance... -- Regards Mathu http://sojjar.blogspot.com
participants (18)
-
Dennis Kioko -
James Kagwe -
Jared Koyier -
Josiah Mugambi -
Mr. Lawi -
Ndungi Kyalo -
Paul Mathu -
Paul Njoroge -
Phares Kariuki -
Philip Musyoki -
Rad! -
saidimu apale -
Simon Mbuthia -
Solomon Mburu -
Steve Obbayi -
Tech List Kenya -
Tony Likhanga -
wesley kirinya