Re: [Skunkworks] [kictanet] [isoc_ke] #KeIGF Online Discussions Day 6: Openess
Dear all The net neutrality debate will soon land on the shores of Africa ...forcing telcos to re-strategize. Here is an article I had written awhile back which I believe is relevant to our discussion http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profiles/blogs/are-africa-telco-strat... Kind regards Mwende On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Mose Karanja via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
This is a very interesting debate for me.
*How do you balance Kenya's collective security with individual freedom on the internet?*
The concern here is whether the understanding of security by the Kenya Police, Intelligence and Military is aligned with what citizens understand security to be. In an ideal world, things should work in harmony between these two centres but we don't live in an ideal world. The drifts in meaning/understanding call for an arbiter. A custodian of the rule of law and national values. You can't trust government - nor citizens - and that is why any country needs an impartial judiciary if it is to defend the social contract between citizens/citizens and citizens/governments.
That is why our hope for human rights in the internet space will benefit a lot if judicial oversight for security practices online (and of course offline seeing how thin the line is) by government are protected and enriched by healthy civil debate on what the country considers as security threats.
Moses
On 27 July 2015 at 11:35, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) via isoc < isoc@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Ali, Thank you for the provocative example. I have been getting that Whatsapp Message but never considered it from a net neutrality standpoint. Although, in a society like ours where we have a privitised version of almost every service (education, health, transport...) would it not make more sense to have people pay for the Internet services according to their needs?
And still on the issue of openess, last week we had a long discussion here about Equitel, and among the many things said was that it would really make a difference if the service is open to other providers and platforms. Would this be a good thing? Probably yes for all the entrepreneurs in the ICT space and of course consumers...
@ Liz, I always get amused at how operators especially international ones define their space in Kenya. While they would very much like to cooperate with the State on issues of national security, they also want to maintain the same level of freedom known back in their countries of origin. Tricky balance. That is why most would rather have a judicial interpretation to requests for information. I think local operators are more cooperative...some even have programmes under which they assist the state with aspects of security. I am sure you have heard stories of thugs stealing everything from people but leaving behind their smartphones to avoid being traced. However, there is also an emerging trend of operators (both local and international) volunteering what they deem as information that could affect security to State agents without a request from the State.
Regards,
2015-07-27 10:07 GMT+03:00 Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke>:
Grace, Liz and all
This is a pet issue of mine. Let me be blunt.
Net Neutrality is not something that we understand. We think that it doesn’t affect us, its too foreign and is the preserve of busy bodies who have nothing else to do.
We must address this issue and elevate it to the level of importance it deserves. The average African (Kenyan) doesn't really care about this issue because after all if he/she receives 'free internet’ through internet.org and other initiatives by the internet super powers who are we to say no? We just don’t seem to grasp the devastating effects of continuously being the net consumer of foreign content through social media and other avenues. If we allow this to continue then what happens to all our local content that will be ‘shut out’ of the net through people consuming ‘free internet’?
Here’s a favourite Whatsapp message circulating for the last two weeks or so:-
‘HEY, I AM INVITING YOU TO ACTIVATE WHATSAPP WITHOUT INTERNET.THIS IS AN AMAZING SERVICE.NOW YOU CAN RUN WHATSAPP WITHOUT INTERNET.CLICK HERE TO ACTIVATE — WHATSAPPNODATA,COM
Seriously?
I’m reminded of a discussion I had with some friends a few weeks ago. And it goes something like this:-
In a Market Place there are three key players:-
1. The Buyer 2. The Seller 3. The Product.
So if you are not a buyer or a seller who are you? (HINT: YOU ARE THE PRODUCT) :-)
So go ahead and continue to consume ‘free’ internet provided by the Internet Superpowers and think that Net Neutrality doesn't matter and post nonsensical stuff like your latest Facebook update:-
RELATIONSHIP: ITS COMPLICATED
And wonder why one of Facebook’s key metrics is ARPU (Yes, you got that right - Average Revenue Per User).
Still think Net Neutrality is for foreigners?
Thanks & Regards
Ali Hussein ali@hussein.me.ke
+254 770 906375 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: Abu-Jomo LinkedIn: http//ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim Blog: www.alyhussein.com
On Jul 27, 2015, at 9:40 AM, Liz Orembo via isoc <isoc@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Morning Grace, all,
I would say Internet in Kenya is still 'unregulated' when it comes to content filtering. I havent come across blocked sites, however, with the recent revelation of the Hacking team-Govt emails. We dont know what else the government has been upto.
Last year vodacom released a transparency report, but no data was revealed because of unclear legal position.
The legal position is unclear regarding whether or not it would be
lawful for Safaricom (Vodafone’s local associate operator) or Vodafone to disclose statistics related to agency and authority communications data demands.
http://www.vodafone.com/content/sustainabilityreport/2014/index/operating_re...
Is it the same case with other service providers? and is it possible for us to seek clarification?
On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) via isoc < isoc@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Listers, We hope you are all well post POTUS visit.
Due to the the national activities last week, we were not able to post the last issue for discussion. Many of you had requested for a discussion on openness of the Internet and so we shall tackle that today. You are also welcome to contribute to all the other discussion threads from last week as we gear up for the face to face KeIGF .
The idea of an open Internet is the idea that the full resources of the Internet and means to operate on it are easily accessible to all individuals and companies. This often includes ideas such as net neutrality, open standards, transparency, lack of Internet censorship, and low barriers to entry. We seek to answer questions like: how open is the Internet in Kenya? Is Freedom of Speech Online encouraged or it is suppressed? Are there examples of blocked websites in Kenya? How easy is it to start an Internet business in Kenya?
Should Internet service provider (ISP) be allowed to speed up, slow down or block lawful Web traffic from getting to where you, the customer, want it to go?
Should ISPs like Orange or Safaricom demand payment from content providers like Facebook or Google because these content providers reap huge profit from the infrastructure provided by ISPs?
What is the position of the regulator on net neutrality? What is the position of service providers in Kenya on net neutrality?
Over to you. Regards, -- Grace L.N. Mutung'u Nairobi Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: @Bomu
<http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profile/GraceMutungu>
_______________________________________________ isoc mailing list isoc@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/isoc
-- Best regards.
_______________________________________________ isoc mailing list isoc@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/isoc
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u Nairobi Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: @Bomu
<http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profile/GraceMutungu>
_______________________________________________ isoc mailing list isoc@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/isoc
-- Mose Karanja @Mose_Karanja <https://twitter.com/Mose_Karanja> PGP: 0x1529552F <https://twitter.com/Mose_Karanja>
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Thank you Sid, Moses and Mwende for chipping in. Mwende's article seems prophetic, these things are now happening or very likely to happen right here in Kenya. Some thoughts from the article: a) There are two main sides in the net neutrality debate: the network operators (pro net bias) and content platforms (pro net neutrality). It becomes interesting when an operator and a content platform enter into an agreement for example Facebook and Airtel or the Whatsapp that Ali had alluded to earlier.The Orange/Google case is a good example. http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/19/3894182/french-isp-orange-says-google-pays... b) The investment debate rages. For example in our case, mobile operators have concerns that it is not enough to acquire a 4G licence, fair allocation of frequencies among players is also key. This begs the question, how should the regulator allocate frequencies? By market demand? Shared? And how would the operators then recoup their massive investment? c) At the end of the day, it should be about a quality consumer experience. And in our case, about giving unreached consumers access in the first place. Regards, 2015-07-27 16:13 GMT+03:00 Mwende Njiraini via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>:
Dear all
The net neutrality debate will soon land on the shores of Africa ...forcing telcos to re-strategize.
Here is an article I had written awhile back which I believe is relevant to our discussion
http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profiles/blogs/are-africa-telco-strat...
Kind regards Mwende
On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Mose Karanja via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
This is a very interesting debate for me.
*How do you balance Kenya's collective security with individual freedom on the internet?*
The concern here is whether the understanding of security by the Kenya Police, Intelligence and Military is aligned with what citizens understand security to be. In an ideal world, things should work in harmony between these two centres but we don't live in an ideal world. The drifts in meaning/understanding call for an arbiter. A custodian of the rule of law and national values. You can't trust government - nor citizens - and that is why any country needs an impartial judiciary if it is to defend the social contract between citizens/citizens and citizens/governments.
That is why our hope for human rights in the internet space will benefit a lot if judicial oversight for security practices online (and of course offline seeing how thin the line is) by government are protected and enriched by healthy civil debate on what the country considers as security threats.
Moses
On 27 July 2015 at 11:35, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) via isoc < isoc@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Ali, Thank you for the provocative example. I have been getting that Whatsapp Message but never considered it from a net neutrality standpoint. Although, in a society like ours where we have a privitised version of almost every service (education, health, transport...) would it not make more sense to have people pay for the Internet services according to their needs?
And still on the issue of openess, last week we had a long discussion here about Equitel, and among the many things said was that it would really make a difference if the service is open to other providers and platforms. Would this be a good thing? Probably yes for all the entrepreneurs in the ICT space and of course consumers...
@ Liz, I always get amused at how operators especially international ones define their space in Kenya. While they would very much like to cooperate with the State on issues of national security, they also want to maintain the same level of freedom known back in their countries of origin. Tricky balance. That is why most would rather have a judicial interpretation to requests for information. I think local operators are more cooperative...some even have programmes under which they assist the state with aspects of security. I am sure you have heard stories of thugs stealing everything from people but leaving behind their smartphones to avoid being traced. However, there is also an emerging trend of operators (both local and international) volunteering what they deem as information that could affect security to State agents without a request from the State.
Regards,
2015-07-27 10:07 GMT+03:00 Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke>:
Grace, Liz and all
This is a pet issue of mine. Let me be blunt.
Net Neutrality is not something that we understand. We think that it doesn’t affect us, its too foreign and is the preserve of busy bodies who have nothing else to do.
We must address this issue and elevate it to the level of importance it deserves. The average African (Kenyan) doesn't really care about this issue because after all if he/she receives 'free internet’ through internet.org and other initiatives by the internet super powers who are we to say no? We just don’t seem to grasp the devastating effects of continuously being the net consumer of foreign content through social media and other avenues. If we allow this to continue then what happens to all our local content that will be ‘shut out’ of the net through people consuming ‘free internet’?
Here’s a favourite Whatsapp message circulating for the last two weeks or so:-
‘HEY, I AM INVITING YOU TO ACTIVATE WHATSAPP WITHOUT INTERNET.THIS IS AN AMAZING SERVICE.NOW YOU CAN RUN WHATSAPP WITHOUT INTERNET.CLICK HERE TO ACTIVATE — WHATSAPPNODATA,COM
Seriously?
I’m reminded of a discussion I had with some friends a few weeks ago. And it goes something like this:-
In a Market Place there are three key players:-
1. The Buyer 2. The Seller 3. The Product.
So if you are not a buyer or a seller who are you? (HINT: YOU ARE THE PRODUCT) :-)
So go ahead and continue to consume ‘free’ internet provided by the Internet Superpowers and think that Net Neutrality doesn't matter and post nonsensical stuff like your latest Facebook update:-
RELATIONSHIP: ITS COMPLICATED
And wonder why one of Facebook’s key metrics is ARPU (Yes, you got that right - Average Revenue Per User).
Still think Net Neutrality is for foreigners?
Thanks & Regards
Ali Hussein ali@hussein.me.ke
+254 770 906375 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: Abu-Jomo LinkedIn: http//ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim Blog: www.alyhussein.com
On Jul 27, 2015, at 9:40 AM, Liz Orembo via isoc <isoc@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Morning Grace, all,
I would say Internet in Kenya is still 'unregulated' when it comes to content filtering. I havent come across blocked sites, however, with the recent revelation of the Hacking team-Govt emails. We dont know what else the government has been upto.
Last year vodacom released a transparency report, but no data was revealed because of unclear legal position.
The legal position is unclear regarding whether or not it would be
lawful for Safaricom (Vodafone’s local associate operator) or Vodafone to disclose statistics related to agency and authority communications data demands.
http://www.vodafone.com/content/sustainabilityreport/2014/index/operating_re...
Is it the same case with other service providers? and is it possible for us to seek clarification?
On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) via isoc < isoc@lists.my.co.ke> wrote:
Listers, We hope you are all well post POTUS visit.
Due to the the national activities last week, we were not able to post the last issue for discussion. Many of you had requested for a discussion on openness of the Internet and so we shall tackle that today. You are also welcome to contribute to all the other discussion threads from last week as we gear up for the face to face KeIGF .
The idea of an open Internet is the idea that the full resources of the Internet and means to operate on it are easily accessible to all individuals and companies. This often includes ideas such as net neutrality, open standards, transparency, lack of Internet censorship, and low barriers to entry. We seek to answer questions like: how open is the Internet in Kenya? Is Freedom of Speech Online encouraged or it is suppressed? Are there examples of blocked websites in Kenya? How easy is it to start an Internet business in Kenya?
Should Internet service provider (ISP) be allowed to speed up, slow down or block lawful Web traffic from getting to where you, the customer, want it to go?
Should ISPs like Orange or Safaricom demand payment from content providers like Facebook or Google because these content providers reap huge profit from the infrastructure provided by ISPs?
What is the position of the regulator on net neutrality? What is the position of service providers in Kenya on net neutrality?
Over to you. Regards, -- Grace L.N. Mutung'u Nairobi Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: @Bomu
<http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profile/GraceMutungu>
_______________________________________________ isoc mailing list isoc@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/isoc
-- Best regards.
_______________________________________________ isoc mailing list isoc@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/isoc
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u Nairobi Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: @Bomu
<http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profile/GraceMutungu>
_______________________________________________ isoc mailing list isoc@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/isoc
-- Mose Karanja @Mose_Karanja <https://twitter.com/Mose_Karanja> PGP: 0x1529552F <https://twitter.com/Mose_Karanja>
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u Nairobi Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: @Bomu <http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profile/GraceMutungu>
participants (2)
-
Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) -
Mwende Njiraini