Let the man hire whosoever he wants to hire by his terms -- the work may involve knowledge of the said faith. *_______________________________________________________________ We must Keep on, * On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Agosta Liko <agostal@gmail.com> wrote:

How would you verify faith ?

This is discrimination ?

On 1/23/12, Chris W. <dabnix@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Afternoon,

An organization is seeking to hire for the mentioned entry level positions. The applicants must be of firm Christian Faith.

i. Web Developer Requirement: Good understanding of: HTML, CSS, PHP and MySQL Some understanding and experience in working with the Wordpress CMS and/or any other CMS is a plus.

ii. ICT Support Requirement Good in: Computer hardware and maintenance, printer support and networking. Some experience in administering the Linux OS and/or any Server OS is a plus.

Once successful, the initial engagement will be on contract. If interested, please send your resume by responding to this mail.

Regards,

Chris_w. dabnix@gmail.com

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Then this must be the most stupid law. What if a church wants to hire a pastor. Or a Mosque an imam? Would you want a person with obvious questionable morals preaching to you every Sunday and stuff like that? Some things its not about the law but simply common sense. Its like me claiming am being discriminated against since I dont know French yet I am applying for a French teaching job. Why would a person lacking in Faith insist on working in a Faith based organization? Isn't it conflict of interest? Why should every company be allowed to come up with terms eg. University Degree, this number of years of experience in this and that field and not be considered discrimination coz in actual fact it is.... while a faith based organization cannot come up with their own terms? For Gods sake their core business is centered in Faith matters. They should have a right to pick the best possible candidate that can push the organization vision forward not someone who is coming in to drag the establshment.... sheesh!!!! ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Rad!" <conradakunga@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:07:27 PM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] [ADVERT] Required Entry Level Web Developer | and IT Support Personnel | That requirement is illegal. | What next? Must be Kikuyu/Luo/Kalenjin? | On Monday, January 23, 2012, joe mwirigi < joemwirigi@gmail.com > | wrote: | > Let the man hire whosoever he wants to hire by his terms -- the | > work may involve knowledge of the said faith. | > | > _______________________________________________________________ | > We must Keep on, | > | > | > | > | > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Agosta Liko < agostal@gmail.com > | > wrote: | >> | >> How would you verify faith ? | >> | >> This is discrimination ? | >> | >> On 1/23/12, Chris W. < dabnix@gmail.com > wrote: | >> > Afternoon, | >> > | >> > An organization is seeking to hire for the mentioned entry level | >> > positions. | >> > The applicants must be of firm Christian Faith. | >> > | >> > i. Web Developer | >> > Requirement: | >> > Good understanding of: HTML, CSS, PHP and MySQL | >> > Some understanding and experience in working with the Wordpress | >> > CMS and/or | >> > any other CMS is a plus. | >> > | >> > ii. ICT Support | >> > Requirement | >> > Good in: Computer hardware and maintenance, printer support and | >> > networking. | >> > Some experience in administering the Linux OS and/or any Server | >> > OS is a | >> > plus. | >> > | >> > Once successful, the initial engagement will be on contract. If | >> > interested, | >> > please send your resume by responding to this mail. | >> > | >> > Regards, | >> > | >> > Chris_w. | >> > dabnix@gmail.com | >> > | >> | >> -- | >> Sent from my mobile device | >> _______________________________________________ | >> Skunkworks mailing list | >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | >> ------------ | >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | >> ------------ | >> | >> Skunkworks Rules | >> http://my..co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | >> ------------ | >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke | > | > | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | ------------ | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | ------------ | Skunkworks Rules | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | ------------ | Other services @ http://my.co.ke

Its not you am attacking @Rad its the ignorance of law I am against. Know why they want a Christian Web Developer is their problem not ours. Maybe the developer is supposed to contribute/create content which must be doctrinally sound. Chances are you will get such a person who is a Christian... dont get me wrong. I have no idea, you will have to ask the organisation ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Rad!" <conradakunga@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:36:35 PM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] [ADVERT] Required Entry Level Web Developer | and IT Support Personnel | Steve, relax. | I'd agree with you were it not for the fact that being a Christian is | a prerequisite for a pastor. | It is NOT for a web developer! | Big difference! | On Monday, January 23, 2012, Steve Obbayi < steve@sobbayi.com > | wrote: | > Then this must be the most stupid law. What if a church wants to | > hire a pastor. Or a Mosque an imam? Would you want a person with | > obvious questionable morals preaching to you every Sunday and | > stuff like that? | > | > Some things its not about the law but simply common sense. | > | > Its like me claiming am being discriminated against since I dont | > know French yet I am applying for a French teaching job. | > | > Why would a person lacking in Faith insist on working in a Faith | > based organization? Isn't it conflict of interest? Why should | > every company be allowed to come up with terms eg. University | > Degree, this number of years of experience in this and that field | > and not be considered discrimination coz in actual fact it is.... | > while a faith based organization cannot come up with their own | > terms? | > | > For Gods sake their core business is centered in Faith matters.. | > They should have a right to pick the best possible candidate that | > can push the organization vision forward not someone who is coming | > in to drag the establshment.... sheesh!!!! | > | > | > | > ________________________________ | > | > From: "Rad!" < conradakunga@gmail.com > | > To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > | > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:07:27 PM | > Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] [ADVERT] Required Entry Level Web | > Developer and IT Support Personnel | > | > That requirement is illegal. | > | > What next? Must be Kikuyu/Luo/Kalenjin? | > | > On Monday, January 23, 2012, joe mwirigi < joemwirigi@gmail.com > | > wrote: | >> Let the man hire whosoever he wants to hire by his terms -- the | >> work may involve knowledge of the said faith. | >> | >> _______________________________________________________________ | >> We must Keep on, | >> | >> | >> | >> | >> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Agosta Liko < agostal@gmail.com > | >> wrote: | >>> | >>> How would you verify faith ? | >>> | >>> This is discrimination ? | >>> | >>> On 1/23/12, Chris W. < dabnix@gmail.com > wrote: | >>> > Afternoon, | >>> > | >>> > An organization is seeking to hire for the mentioned entry | >>> > level positions. | >>> > The applicants must be of firm Christian Faith. | >>> > | >>> > i. Web Developer | >>> > Requirement: | >>> > Good understanding of: HTML, CSS, PHP and MySQL | >>> > Some understanding and experience in working with the Wordpress | >>> > CMS and/or | >>> > any other CMS is a plus. | >>> > | >>> > ii. ICT Support | >>> > Requirement | >>> > Good in: Computer hardware and maintenance, printer support and | >>> > networking. | >>> > Some experience in administering the Linux OS and/or any Server | >>> > OS is a | >>> > plus. | >>> > | >>> > Once successful, the initial engagement will be on contract. If | >>> > interested, | >>> > please send your resume by responding to this mail. | >>> > | >>> > Regards, | >>> > | >>> > Chris_w. | >>> > dabnix@gmail.com | >>> > | >>> | >>> -- | >>> Sent from my mobile device | >>> _______________________________________________ | >>> Skunkworks mailing list | >>> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | >>> ------------ | >>> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | >>> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | >>> ------------ | >>> | >>> Skunkworks Rules | >>> http://my. . co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | >>> ------------ | >>> Other services @ http://my.co.ke | >> | >> | > _______________________________________________ | > Skunkworks mailing list | > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | > ------------ | > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | > http://orion..my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | > ------------ | > | > Skunkworks Rules | > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | > ------------ | > Other services @ http://my.co.ke | > | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | ------------ | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | ------------ | Skunkworks Rules | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | ------------ | Other services @ http://my.co.ke

Steve How do you measure faith ? Or Christianity ? On 1/23/12, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:

Then this must be the most stupid law. What if a church wants to hire a pastor. Or a Mosque an imam? Would you want a person with obvious questionable morals preaching to you every Sunday and stuff like that?

Some things its not about the law but simply common sense.

Its like me claiming am being discriminated against since I dont know French yet I am applying for a French teaching job.

Why would a person lacking in Faith insist on working in a Faith based organization? Isn't it conflict of interest? Why should every company be allowed to come up with terms eg. University Degree, this number of years of experience in this and that field and not be considered discrimination coz in actual fact it is.... while a faith based organization cannot come up with their own terms?

For Gods sake their core business is centered in Faith matters. They should have a right to pick the best possible candidate that can push the organization vision forward not someone who is coming in to drag the establshment.... sheesh!!!!

----- Original Message -----

| From: "Rad!" <conradakunga@gmail.com> | To: "Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:07:27 PM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] [ADVERT] Required Entry Level Web Developer | and IT Support Personnel

| That requirement is illegal.

| What next? Must be Kikuyu/Luo/Kalenjin?

| On Monday, January 23, 2012, joe mwirigi < joemwirigi@gmail.com > | wrote: | > Let the man hire whosoever he wants to hire by his terms -- the | > work may involve knowledge of the said faith. | > | > _______________________________________________________________ | > We must Keep on, | > | > | > | > | > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Agosta Liko < agostal@gmail.com > | > wrote: | >> | >> How would you verify faith ? | >> | >> This is discrimination ? | >> | >> On 1/23/12, Chris W. < dabnix@gmail.com > wrote: | >> > Afternoon, | >> > | >> > An organization is seeking to hire for the mentioned entry level | >> > positions. | >> > The applicants must be of firm Christian Faith. | >> > | >> > i. Web Developer | >> > Requirement: | >> > Good understanding of: HTML, CSS, PHP and MySQL | >> > Some understanding and experience in working with the Wordpress | >> > CMS and/or | >> > any other CMS is a plus. | >> > | >> > ii. ICT Support | >> > Requirement | >> > Good in: Computer hardware and maintenance, printer support and | >> > networking. | >> > Some experience in administering the Linux OS and/or any Server | >> > OS is a | >> > plus. | >> > | >> > Once successful, the initial engagement will be on contract. If | >> > interested, | >> > please send your resume by responding to this mail. | >> > | >> > Regards, | >> > | >> > Chris_w. | >> > dabnix@gmail.com | >> > | >> | >> -- | >> Sent from my mobile device | >> _______________________________________________ | >> Skunkworks mailing list | >> Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | >> ------------ | >> List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | >> http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | >> ------------ | >> | >> Skunkworks Rules | >> http://my..co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | >> ------------ | >> Other services @ http://my.co.ke | > | > | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | ------------ | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | ------------

| Skunkworks Rules | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | ------------ | Other services @ http://my.co.ke

-- Sent from my mobile device

My question to you is one of Faith... Jesus worked with tax collectors and prostitutes... Isn't it inherently hypocritical for a faith that claims to be in the business of saving souls to refuse to work with someone on the basis of their lack of faith? Charity begins at home... -- Regards, Phares Kaboro Kariuki -----Original Message----- From: Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:34:10 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] [ADVERT] Required Entry Level Web Developer and IT Support Personnel _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke

Anyone here, an employer, who will stand up and tell us they do not have their own criteria for hiring that is very peculiar to their liking can cast the first stone. I have a few guys in mind who meet the requirements and I will forward this to them. Sent from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "David Kiania | Asentric Consulting Ltd" <kianiadee@gmail.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:51:14 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] [ADVERT] Required Entry Level Web Developer and IT Support Personnel Guess what we can yap all we want yet the company will hire someone based on the criteria they want, based on their criteria. If anyone is passionate enough seek legal redress. On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Phares Kariuki <pkariuki@gmail.com> wrote:

My question to you is one of Faith... Jesus worked with tax collectors and prostitutes... Isn't it inherently hypocritical for a faith that claims to be in the business of saving souls to refuse to work with someone on the basis of their lack of faith? Charity begins at home... --

Regards,

Phares Kaboro Kariuki

-----Original Message----- From: Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:34:10 To: Skunkworks Mailing List<skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] [ADVERT] Required Entry Level Web Developer and IT        Support Personnel

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-- [Asentric Consulting Ltd] http://shutterdiplomacy.wordpress.com  I ask not for a lighter burden, but for broader shoulders. -Jewish proverb _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://orion.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke

You got it right. The constitution has got so many contradictions you wonder how it is actually in effect. For example. Look at these two lines under section 32: (3) A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person’s belief or religion. (4) A person shall not be compelled to act, or engage in any act, that is contrary to the person’s belief or religion. If an Atheist demands employment in a religious institution, Clause (3) enforces his right to get the job but here is one problem.... according to clause (4) he can then legally refuse to perform his duties claiming it is contrary to his beliefs or lack thereof. Another example.. if in essence I believe I should work for a maximum of 4 hours a day. Clause (4) guarantees that I should not be compelled act contrary to my twisted belief.... trust me the constitution is riddled with such messes ----- Original Message ----- | From: "James Nzomo" <kazikubwa@gmail.com> | To: muteti@gmail.com, "Skunkworks Mailing List" | <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> | Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 11:34:16 PM | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] [ADVERT] Required Entry Level Web Developer | and IT Support Personnel | Signs that the new constitution wasn't fully thought thru before | implementation. | This ....along with the warrant on Bashir... a result of | automatically accepting international law, which in this case has | the ability to turn allies into undesired enemies. | _______________________________________________ | Without requirements or design, | programming is the art of adding bugs to an empty text file. | _______________________________________________ | 2012/1/23 < muteti@gmail.com > | | Anyone here, an employer, who will stand up and tell us they do not | | have their own criteria for hiring that is very peculiar to their | | liking can cast the first stone. | | | I have a few guys in mind who meet the requirements and I will | | forward this to them. | | | Sent from my BlackBerry® | | | -----Original Message----- | | | From: "David Kiania | Asentric Consulting Ltd" < | | kianiadee@gmail.com | | > | | | Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke | | | Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:51:14 | | | To: Skunkworks Mailing List< skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > | | | Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > | | | Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] [ADVERT] Required Entry Level Web | | Developer | | and IT | | | Support Personnel | | | Guess what we can yap all we want yet the company will hire someone | | | based on the criteria they want, based on their criteria. | | | If anyone is passionate enough seek legal redress. | | | On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Phares Kariuki < | | pkariuki@gmail.com | | > wrote: | | | > My question to you is one of Faith... Jesus worked with tax | | > collectors and prostitutes... Isn't it inherently hypocritical | | > for | | > a faith that claims to be in the business of saving souls to | | > refuse to work with someone on the basis of their lack of faith? | | > Charity begins at home... | | | > -- | | | > | | | > Regards, | | | > | | | > Phares Kaboro Kariuki | | | > | | | > -----Original Message----- | | | > From: Steve Obbayi < steve@sobbayi.com > | | | > Sender: skunkworks-bounces@lists.my.co.ke | | | > Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:34:10 | | | > To: Skunkworks Mailing List< skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > | | | > Reply-To: Skunkworks Mailing List < skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke > | | | > Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] [ADVERT] Required Entry Level Web | | > Developer and IT | | | > Support Personnel | | | > | | | > _______________________________________________ | | | > Skunkworks mailing list | | | > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | | | > ------------ | | | > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | | | > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | | | > ------------ | | | > | | | > Skunkworks Rules | | | > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | | | > ------------ | | | > Other services @ http://my.co.ke | | | > _______________________________________________ | | | > Skunkworks mailing list | | | > Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | | | > ------------ | | | > List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | | | > http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | | | > ------------ | | | > | | | > Skunkworks Rules | | | > http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | | | > ------------ | | | > Other services @ http://my.co.ke | | | -- | | | [Asentric Consulting Ltd] | | | http://shutterdiplomacy.wordpress.com | | | I ask not for a lighter burden, but for broader shoulders. -Jewish | | proverb | | | _______________________________________________ | | | Skunkworks mailing list | | | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | | | ------------ | | | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | | | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | | | ------------ | | | Skunkworks Rules | | | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | | | ------------ | | | Other services @ http://my.co..ke | | | _______________________________________________ | | | Skunkworks mailing list | | | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | | | ------------ | | | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | | | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | | | ------------ | | | Skunkworks Rules | | | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | | | ------------ | | | Other services @ http://my.co..ke | | _______________________________________________ | Skunkworks mailing list | Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke | ------------ | List info, subscribe/unsubscribe | http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks | ------------ | Skunkworks Rules | http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 | ------------ | Other services @ http://my.co.ke

Hi @Rad, let me add a few thoughts here, though from a simplistic point of view. :-) Firstly I believe the person hiring with their requirements knows why the candidate is subjected to a religious requirement because forcing the candidate to follow their religious practices may itself not be the right thing which could amount to the candidate being forced to practice religious beliefs against their own beliefs. Secondly, as you added the angle on tribes, I'm not sure why tribalism is a bad thing as many believe it to be. Tribalism need not be a bad thing because it is the structure within which the communities social, moral and outlook of generations are built upon. Tribalism becomes a bad thing when there is abuse at national levels that discriminate based on a tribal system. That bad part of tribalism, as you already know whether a constitution guarantees you the right, is when there is no equal representation. But is Tribalism the real problem? I sincerely believe it is not. I'll give you an example of whether tribalism is really a problem or whether people perceive it to be. When I traveled to SA in 2010, nothing prepared me for what I saw and it really connected. I met a number of people in my work related environment whether they worked in govt, private sector or even in security. My background in KE is that we moved here over a 100 years ago and choose to stay so there are a number of generations that call KE home. Anyway back to the SA story, I found that the e.g govt structure was formed up of a mixed representation from people of various races and backgrounds and that this was evident even at the lowest levels in Govt. The SA police has a mix of all races, I was quite surprised to see the mix so I deliberately stopped to say hello to them when I came across them. I met a white south african police motor bike rider who was a senior officer to an Indian fellow who was like a security consultant who has just recently retired from the SA top plain clothes division and formed his own security company after over 20 years in the service. Even TelkomSA had a various mix of races from engineers to regional managers. This led me to learn more and more and start questioning as to why we lacked such representation back in KE. This led me back to 1963 and the possibility of what negative effects "africanization" has had on KE i.e the wrong implementation. So while constitutionally every race/gender in KE is guaranteed a right, none of the KE govts'' since 1963 have practiced it. There have never been proper appointments in govt, to being in the structure so as to contribute more towards a nation. As minorities, you can then imagine when fellow kenyans talk about Tribalism being a problem and that it is the main reason why there is not much development, comparatively it is not even an issue. If minorities face the same problems as those who feel tribalism is shutting them out, then there is a bigger question in this. Some thoughts. :-) Rgds. On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

That requirement is illegal.

What next? Must be Kikuyu/Luo/Kalenjin?

My question is simple. We all know if that post said either of the following (and i repeat, havinf no relevance to the job) there would be outrage - Candidate must be a Muslim - Candidate be a Kikuyu - Candidate must be on ODM member - Candidate must be white Why the double standards? On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:

<offTopic> Throw in religious fundamentalism into a small / localized feud and you have a full blown international War.

Consider the case of Israel Vs Palestine which is really just an ethnic problem. </offTopic>

Martin. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke ------------ List info, subscribe/unsubscribe http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------

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If you replace Christian with Kalenjin, some people will also say that is common sense. On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Peter Osotsi <peter.osotsi@gmail.com> wrote:

I would not be comfortable employing a Moslem to update my Church website, or some "christian" to handle sensitive church matters they don't subscribe to. Its common sense. Thats why some of us remained in the NO camp because we were concerned about the numerous inconsistencies in the new constitution.

Peter

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

...

My question is simple.

We all know if that post said either of the following (and i repeat,

havinf no relevance to the job) there would be outrage

...

- Candidate must be a Muslim - Candidate be a Kikuyu - Candidate must be on ODM member - Candidate must be white

May I refer all to the definition of discrimination. Discrimination can either be positive or negative and the biggest issue is that we all think of it as negative. If you have read a lot of South African labour laws then you will know what am talking about. ./Ok3ch Sent from my iPad On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:31 AM, John Ndambuki <johnmndambuki@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

If I've understood the initial request correctly and the excerpt of the Constitution as posted by Joe, I think that the employer is not discriminating applicants for professing their alternative faith (or lack of it). They are simply choosing those with qualifications they require vis-à-vis those that lack the same. That is, they have not said, "do not apply because you are Hindu/Muslim/Atheist etc", they have just come out and said "we need a Christian for our (I assume Christian-based) organization.

Anyway, if someone has an issue regarding the request for applications, they can challenge the employer to explain why they have placed such a condition on the position. My assumption is that they are not merely seeking technical skills...

Requirement:

"An organization is seeking to hire for the mentioned entry level positions. The applicants must be of firm Christian Faith."

Law:

"A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person’s belief or religion."

Kind Regards

John Ndambuki

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote: If you replace Christian with Kalenjin, some people will also say that is common sense.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Peter Osotsi <peter.osotsi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I would not be comfortable employing a Moslem to update my Church website, or some "christian" to handle sensitive church matters they don't subscribe to. Its common sense. Thats why some of us remained in the NO camp because we were concerned about the numerous inconsistencies in the new constitution.

Peter

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

...

My question is simple.

We all know if that post said either of the following (and i repeat, havinf no relevance to the job) there would be outrage

- Candidate must be a Muslim - Candidate be a Kikuyu - Candidate must be on ODM member - Candidate must be white

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Would it make a difference if the advertisement said Christian faith would be an added advantage? When a job requires 5 years experience, isn't it 'discriminating' against those with 4 years experience? Some interesting debate going on here..... On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Mutwiri Kiogora <mutwirik@gmail.com> wrote:

Employment Act 2007,

Part II - General Principles, 5.

(3) No employer shall discriminate directly or indirectly, against an employee or prospective employee or harass an employee or *prospective employee* -- (a) on grounds of race, colour, sex, language, *religion*, political or other opinion, nationality, ethnic or social origin, disability, pregnancy, mental status or HIV status;

Download Employment Act 2007<http://www.labour.go.ke/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=1&Itemid=75>(PDF)

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com> wrote:

...

May I refer all to the definition of discrimination. Discrimination can either be positive or negative and the biggest issue is that we all think of it as negative. If you have read a lot of South African labour laws then you will know what am talking about.

./Ok3ch

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:31 AM, John Ndambuki <johnmndambuki@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

If I've understood the initial request correctly and the excerpt of the Constitution as posted by Joe, I think that the employer is not discriminating applicants for professing their alternative faith (or lack of it). They are simply choosing those with qualifications they require vis-à-vis those that lack the same. That is, they have not said, "do not apply because you are Hindu/Muslim/Atheist etc", they have just come out and said "we need a Christian for our (I assume Christian-based) organization.

Anyway, if someone has an issue regarding the request for applications, they can challenge the employer to explain why they have placed such a condition on the position. My assumption is that they are not merely seeking technical skills...

*Requirement*:

"An organization is seeking to hire for the mentioned entry level positions. The applicants must be of firm Christian Faith."

*Law*:

"A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person's belief or religion."

Kind Regards

John Ndambuki

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

...

If you replace Christian with Kalenjin, some people will also say that is common sense.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Peter Osotsi <peter.osotsi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I would not be comfortable employing a Moslem to update my Church website, or some "christian" to handle sensitive church matters they don't subscribe to. Its common sense. Thats why some of us remained in the NO camp because we were concerned about the numerous inconsistencies in the new constitution.

Peter

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

...

My question is simple.

We all know if that post said either of the following (and i repeat,

havinf no relevance to the job) there would be outrage

...

- Candidate must be a Muslim - Candidate be a Kikuyu - Candidate must be on ODM member - Candidate must be white

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Employment Act 2007, Part II - General Principles, 5. (3) No employer shall discriminate directly or indirectly, against an employee or prospective employee or harass an employee or *prospective employee* -- (a) on grounds of race, colour, sex, language, *religion*, political or *other opinion*, *nationality*, ethnic or social origin, disability, pregnancy,* mental status *or HIV status; This begs the question.... *"what exactly is meant by Discrimination?"* or rather ..*What did they mean by descrimination?* _______________________________________________ *Without requirements or design, programming is the art of adding bugs to an empty text file.* _______________________________________________ * * 2012/1/25 John Doe <fivepings@gmail.com>

Would it make a difference if the advertisement said Christian faith would be an added advantage?

When a job requires 5 years experience, isn't it 'discriminating' against those with 4 years experience?

Some interesting debate going on here.....

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Mutwiri Kiogora <mutwirik@gmail.com>wrote:

...

Employment Act 2007,

Part II - General Principles, 5.

(3) No employer shall discriminate directly or indirectly, against an employee or prospective employee or harass an employee or *prospective employee* -- (a) on grounds of race, colour, sex, language, *religion*, political or other opinion, nationality, ethnic or social origin, disability, pregnancy, mental status or HIV status;

Download Employment Act 2007<http://www.labour.go.ke/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=1&Itemid=75>(PDF)

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com> wrote:

...

May I refer all to the definition of discrimination. Discrimination can either be positive or negative and the biggest issue is that we all think of it as negative. If you have read a lot of South African labour laws then you will know what am talking about.

./Ok3ch

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:31 AM, John Ndambuki <johnmndambuki@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

If I've understood the initial request correctly and the excerpt of the Constitution as posted by Joe, I think that the employer is not discriminating applicants for professing their alternative faith (or lack of it). They are simply choosing those with qualifications they require vis-à-vis those that lack the same. That is, they have not said, "do not apply because you are Hindu/Muslim/Atheist etc", they have just come out and said "we need a Christian for our (I assume Christian-based) organization.

Anyway, if someone has an issue regarding the request for applications, they can challenge the employer to explain why they have placed such a condition on the position. My assumption is that they are not merely seeking technical skills...

*Requirement*:

"An organization is seeking to hire for the mentioned entry level positions. The applicants must be of firm Christian Faith."

*Law*:

"A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person's belief or religion."

Kind Regards

John Ndambuki

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

...

If you replace Christian with Kalenjin, some people will also say that is common sense.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Peter Osotsi <peter.osotsi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I would not be comfortable employing a Moslem to update my Church website, or some "christian" to handle sensitive church matters they don't subscribe to. Its common sense. Thats why some of us remained in the NO camp because we were concerned about the numerous inconsistencies in the new constitution.

Peter

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

...

My question is simple.

We all know if that post said either of the following (and i repeat,

havinf no relevance to the job) there would be outrage

...

- Candidate must be a Muslim - Candidate be a Kikuyu - Candidate must be on ODM member - Candidate must be white

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This world is founded on discriminations only that they find "better words" to use save the word *discrimination* e.g preference. If you are looking for a web programmer, you are discriminating against the food scientist who is also looking for a job!. If you are looking for a degree holder, u r disciminating against that turkana man who could not afford to go to school but has the heart to do 'websites' for u!. The discriminative word in the foregoing being"qualifications". All what law does is to create a list of allowable discriminations or detrmine what discrimination is or is not! If am looking for a christian / muslim, I need just that because am not the government. I guess if u want affirmative action to be followed, do that for government jobs where its a tarry-list of sexes, tribes, papers and others as may be added by lobbyists, civil societies, human rights and the never ending array of NGOs who source their food from such balances, fractions and numbers. :) let me just laugh it off anyway *_______________________________________________________________ We must Keep on, * On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 4:45 PM, John Doe <fivepings@gmail.com> wrote:

@ Gad, it can be done....so can changing your religion. I guess this debate has just made me ask some questions...what really is discrimination? And can it be changed?

Is affirmative action as applied by SA for blacks or by Kenya for Women discriminative against whites and Men?

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 4:34 PM, James Nzomo <kazikubwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Employment Act 2007,

Part II - General Principles, 5.

(3) No employer shall discriminate directly or indirectly, against an employee or prospective employee or harass an employee or *prospective employee* -- (a) on grounds of race, colour, sex, language, *religion*, political or *other opinion*, *nationality*, ethnic or social origin, disability, pregnancy,* mental status *or HIV status;

This begs the question.... *"what exactly is meant by Discrimination?"* or rather ..*What did they mean by descrimination?*

_______________________________________________

*Without requirements or design, programming is the art of adding bugs to an empty text file.* _______________________________________________ *

*

2012/1/25 John Doe <fivepings@gmail.com>

...

Would it make a difference if the advertisement said Christian faith would be an added advantage?

When a job requires 5 years experience, isn't it 'discriminating' against those with 4 years experience?

Some interesting debate going on here.....

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Mutwiri Kiogora <mutwirik@gmail.com>wrote:

...

Employment Act 2007,

Part II - General Principles, 5.

(3) No employer shall discriminate directly or indirectly, against an employee or prospective employee or harass an employee or *prospective employee* -- (a) on grounds of race, colour, sex, language, *religion*, political or other opinion, nationality, ethnic or social origin, disability, pregnancy, mental status or HIV status;

Download Employment Act 2007<http://www.labour.go.ke/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=1&Itemid=75>(PDF)

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com>wrote:

...

May I refer all to the definition of discrimination. Discrimination can either be positive or negative and the biggest issue is that we all think of it as negative. If you have read a lot of South African labour laws then you will know what am talking about.

./Ok3ch

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:31 AM, John Ndambuki <johnmndambuki@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

If I've understood the initial request correctly and the excerpt of the Constitution as posted by Joe, I think that the employer is not discriminating applicants for professing their alternative faith (or lack of it). They are simply choosing those with qualifications they require vis-à-vis those that lack the same. That is, they have not said, "do not apply because you are Hindu/Muslim/Atheist etc", they have just come out and said "we need a Christian for our (I assume Christian-based) organization.

Anyway, if someone has an issue regarding the request for applications, they can challenge the employer to explain why they have placed such a condition on the position. My assumption is that they are not merely seeking technical skills...

*Requirement*:

"An organization is seeking to hire for the mentioned entry level positions. The applicants must be of firm Christian Faith."

*Law*:

"A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person's belief or religion."

Kind Regards

John Ndambuki

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:

...

If you replace Christian with Kalenjin, some people will also say that is common sense.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Peter Osotsi <peter.osotsi@gmail.com> wrote: > I would not be comfortable employing a Moslem to update my Church website, or some "christian" to handle sensitive church matters they don't subscribe to. Its common sense. Thats why some of us remained in the NO camp because we were concerned about the numerous inconsistencies in the new constitution. > > Peter > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> My question is simple. >> >> We all know if that post said either of the following (and i repeat, havinf no relevance to the job) there would be outrage >> >> - Candidate must be a Muslim >> - Candidate be a Kikuyu >> - Candidate must be on ODM member >> - Candidate must be white >

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Hello Mark, You cannot make a hypothesis on assumed facts. Lets be clear. Any job offering, whether for a police man or a search optimisation officer, discriminates against monkeys, hippos and reptiles. It is about this specific case. Any lawyers on the list who can give a legal opinion? On 01/26/2012 01:29 PM, Mark Mwangi wrote:

I find this debate rather unnecessary. Let us assume that this is a faith based organisation say a church or a christian NGO. Why would a worshiper from some other religion want to apply here? I imagine that is what the requirement is supposed to sieve. If I was a devout Muslim, qualified and got called for an interview only to find its an evangelical christian NGO that was hiring, I would feel uncomfortable and would probably not take the job. And don't give me hypothetical situations that a devout Muslim would somehow be very comfortable working at a christian church. What about those jobs that require one to be a Kenyan citizen eg the Kenya police, military? Are they discriminatory against Belgians and Ugandans?

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 9:25 PM, joe mwirigi <joemwirigi@gmail.com <mailto:joemwirigi@gmail.com>> wrote:

This world is founded on discriminations only that they find "better words" to use save the word *discrimination* e.g preference. If you are looking for a web programmer, you are discriminating against the food scientist who is also looking for a job!. If you are looking for a degree holder, u r disciminating against that turkana man who could not afford to go to school but has the heart to do 'websites' for u!. The discriminative word in the foregoing being"qualifications". All what law does is to create a list of allowable discriminations or detrmine what discrimination is or is not! If am looking for a christian / muslim, I need just that because am not the government. I guess if u want affirmative action to be followed, do that for government jobs where its a tarry-list of sexes, tribes, papers and others as may be added by lobbyists, civil societies, human rights and the never ending array of NGOs who source their food from such balances, fractions and numbers. :) let me just laugh it off anyway

/_______________________________________________________________ We must Keep on, /

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 4:45 PM, John Doe <fivepings@gmail.com <mailto:fivepings@gmail.com>> wrote:

@ Gad, it can be done....so can changing your religion. I guess this debate has just made me ask some questions...what really is discrimination? And can it be changed?

Is affirmative action as applied by SA for blacks or by Kenya for Women discriminative against whites and Men?

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 4:34 PM, James Nzomo <kazikubwa@gmail.com <mailto:kazikubwa@gmail.com>> wrote:

Employment Act 2007,

Part II - General Principles, 5.

(3) No employer shall discriminate directly or indirectly, against an employee or prospective employee or harass an employee or /prospective employee/ -- (a) on grounds of race, colour,sex, language, /*religion*/, political or *other opinion*, *nationality*, ethnic or social origin, disability, pregnancy,*mental status *or HIV status;

This begs the question.... *"what exactly is meant by Discrimination?"* or rather ..*What did they mean by descrimination?*

_______________________________________________

*/Without requirements or design, programming is the art of adding bugs to an empty text file./* _______________________________________________ ** * * **

2012/1/25 John Doe <fivepings@gmail.com <mailto:fivepings@gmail.com>>

Would it make a difference if the advertisement said Christian faith would be an added advantage?

When a job requires 5 years experience, isn't it 'discriminating' against those with 4 years experience?

Some interesting debate going on here.....

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Mutwiri Kiogora <mutwirik@gmail.com <mailto:mutwirik@gmail.com>> wrote:

Employment Act 2007,

Part II - General Principles, 5.

(3) No employer shall discriminate directly or indirectly, against an employee or prospective employee or harass an employee or /prospective employee/ -- (a) on grounds of race, colour, sex, language, /religion/, political or other opinion, nationality, ethnic or social origin, disability, pregnancy, mental status or HIV status;

Download Employment Act 2007 <http://www.labour.go.ke/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=1&Itemid=75> (PDF)

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Okechukwu <okechukwu@gmail.com <mailto:okechukwu@gmail.com>> wrote:

May I refer all to the definition of discrimination. Discrimination can either be positive or negative and the biggest issue is that we all think of it as negative. If you have read a lot of South African labour laws then you will know what am talking about.

./Ok3ch

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:31 AM, John Ndambuki <johnmndambuki@gmail.com <mailto:johnmndambuki@gmail.com>> wrote:

...

Hi All,

If I've understood the initial request correctly and the excerpt of the Constitution as posted by Joe, I think that the employer is not discriminating applicants for professing their alternative faith (or lack of it). They are simply choosing those with qualifications they require vis-�-vis those that lack the same. That is, they have not said, "do not apply because you are Hindu/Muslim/Atheist etc", they have just come out and said "we need a Christian for our (I assume Christian-based) organization.

Anyway, if someone has an issue regarding the request for applications, they can challenge the employer to explain why they have placed such a condition on the position. My assumption is that they are not merely seeking technical skills...

_Requirement_:

"An organization is seeking to hire for the mentioned entry level positions. The applicants must be of firm Christian Faith."

_Law_:

"A person may not be denied access to any institution, employment or facility, or the enjoyment of any right, because of the person's belief or religion."

Kind Regards

John Ndambuki

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com <mailto:conradakunga@gmail.com>> wrote:

If you replace Christian with Kalenjin, some people will also say that is common sense.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2012, Peter Osotsi <peter.osotsi@gmail.com <mailto:peter.osotsi@gmail.com>> wrote: > I would not be comfortable employing a Moslem to update my Church website, or some "christian" to handle sensitive church matters they don't subscribe to. Its common sense. Thats why some of us remained in the NO camp because we were concerned about the numerous inconsistencies in the new constitution. > > Peter > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com <mailto:conradakunga@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> My question is simple. >> >> We all know if that post said either of the following (and i repeat, havinf no relevance to the job) there would be outrage >> >> - Candidate must be a Muslim >> - Candidate be a Kikuyu >> - Candidate must be on ODM member >> - Candidate must be white >

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-- Regards,

Mark Mwangi

markmwangi.me.ke <http://markmwangi.me.ke>

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-- Regards, Joe Murithi Njeru LPI Certified Professional (www.lpi.org) Linux User: #361092 Skype ID: joenjeru Twitter: http://twitter.com/joenjeru Blog: http://www.joenjeru.com