Will Open source make developing nations dumber and dependent on freeware to run economies?
Not to provoke any nerves etc and am just wondering aloud. As I see tech things evolve each day or month, I kind of get the impression Open Source will be a cause of a lot of misery, especially where it is involved in many versions and platforms. I think eg FreeBSD holds the Open Source key to future stability and development and should be the way forward for a single platform approach. Why are we creating modern type writers by running Open Source on laptops and desktops? me mid-week thots... :-)
Aki, My opinion is Open Source is more important to the developing World than the developed due to flexibility in Licensing and cost of deploying and might be the only affordable option that will enable us catch up if we ever will with the developed world, in any case most licensing models have been developed for markets in the developed world. I think the greatest challenge we are facing is point of entry, at what age are we introduced to software developement, can someone do a comparison between the developing and developed world as to when people are introduced to s/w developement this might be the answer to our quest for innovation, in the developing world most guys tend to get into programming in their late teens or twenties when "other priorities" have caught up with them in life :-), Wesley i am keen to get your take on this...is age a factor with regard to entry level in programming?, sorry aki for deviating On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:46 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
Not to provoke any nerves etc and am just wondering aloud. As I see tech things evolve each day or month, I kind of get the impression Open Source will be a cause of a lot of misery, especially where it is involved in many versions and platforms. I think eg FreeBSD holds the Open Source key to future stability and development and should be the way forward for a single platform approach.
Why are we creating modern type writers by running Open Source on laptops and desktops?
me mid-week thots... :-)
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- Barrack O. Otieno Administrative Manager Afriregister Ltd (Ke) P.o.Box 21682 Nairobi 00100 Tel: +254721325277 +254733206359 +254202498789 Riara Road, Bamboo Lane www.afriregister.com www.afriregister.co.ke ICANN accredited registrar.
Its true that Open source poses some significant problems in its uptake. The biggest problem that opensource faces is user support in third world countries. This is well catered for in developed countries with companies like redhat or canonical (SA?). If the opensource community can solve this, they can compete very well in the sware market. A hidden advantage not yet recognized is that opensource is built upon the principle of reducing repetition. e.g 1. despite many development IDEs, the compiler is gcc/g++. 2. Despite the many OSes, the guis remain KDE or gnome. 3. Despite the many package managers, they still do the job similarly e.g apt-get and yum. Therefore, despite the many variants of opensource OSes, learning and deploying them is not so different.
Why are we creating modern type writers by running Open Source on laptops and desktops?
This is part of the negative marketing done about opensource that we don't need. On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com>wrote:
Aki, My opinion is Open Source is more important to the developing World than the developed due to flexibility in Licensing and cost of deploying and might be the only affordable option that will enable us catch up if we ever will with the developed world, in any case most licensing models have been developed for markets in the developed world. I think the greatest challenge we are facing is point of entry, at what age are we introduced to software developement, can someone do a comparison between the developing and developed world as to when people are introduced to s/w developement this might be the answer to our quest for innovation, in the developing world most guys tend to get into programming in their late teens or twenties when "other priorities" have caught up with them in life :-), Wesley i am keen to get your take on this...is age a factor with regard to entry level in programming?, sorry aki for deviating
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:46 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
Not to provoke any nerves etc and am just wondering aloud. As I see tech things evolve each day or month, I kind of get the impression Open Source will be a cause of a lot of misery, especially where it is involved in many versions and platforms. I think eg FreeBSD holds the Open Source key to future stability and development and should be the way forward for a single platform approach.
Why are we creating modern type writers by running Open Source on laptops and desktops?
me mid-week thots... :-)
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- Barrack O. Otieno Administrative Manager Afriregister Ltd (Ke) P.o.Box 21682 Nairobi 00100 Tel: +254721325277 +254733206359 +254202498789 Riara Road, Bamboo Lane www.afriregister.com www.afriregister.co.ke ICANN accredited registrar.
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- www.dealcent.com - Your electronics shop www.golavish.com - The travel and leisure www.raccuddasys.com - code Development issues
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com>wrote:
Wesley i am keen to get your take on this...is age a factor with regard to entry level in programming?, sorry aki for deviating
@Barrack, thnks for the info. I too have been researching some articles on age and programming and came across one that was a eye opener. It highly suggests that programmers and software engineers have a short career life ( unless you are in a developing country where code as old as 40-50 years can still make headlines... ) similar to a professional sports person. The age of 40 seems to be a downhill trend for programmers as they either end up as management ( which they hate but have no choice ) or the lucky ones who end up as lead programmers for a team etc. I'm curios about something too, on Open Source and schools in Kenya. What linux version is being used, or has someone decided that a certain linux version is the way forward? What about PC-BSD, is this also being used as a learning platform? me thots.. :-) Rgds.
@Aki before you jump to any conclusions about the short career path of hard core developers... look at what developers in developing countries say about it here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/972611/old-developers-any-future SKYPE: sobbayi US: +1 202 297 6831 +1 202 470 0525 KE: +254 722 627 691 http://blog.sobbayi.com http://sobbayi.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "aki" <aki275@googlemail.com> To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2009 3:58:57 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Will Open source make developing nations dumber and dependent on freeware to run economies? On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Barrack Otieno < otieno.barrack@gmail.com > wrote: Wesley i am keen to get your take on this...is age a factor with regard to entry level in programming?, sorry aki for deviating @Barrack, thnks for the info. I too have been researching some articles on age and programming and came across one that was a eye opener. It highly suggests that programmers and software engineers have a short career life ( unless you are in a developing country where code as old as 40-50 years can still make headlines... ) similar to a professional sports person. The age of 40 seems to be a downhill trend for programmers as they either end up as management ( which they hate but have no choice ) or the lucky ones who end up as lead programmers for a team etc. I'm curios about something too, on Open Source and schools in Kenya. What linux version is being used, or has someone decided that a certain linux version is the way forward? What about PC-BSD, is this also being used as a learning platform? me thots.. :-) Rgds.
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
@Aki before you jump to any conclusions about the short career path of hard core developers... look at what developers in developing countries say about it here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/972611/old-developers-any-future
@Steve, thnks. read that and me thinks it applies only to hard core programmers. Code scripties and the rest unfortunately will not make it.. even the oldies have to learn many newer things or be phased out. On another topic, it will be interesting to see is what Walu just posted a few minutes ago. The person coming over for a visit is not a Mr/Miss Chai na Mandazi session but a computer scientist and decorated one at that, *Sir Timothy John "Tim" Berners-Lee. * I'm embararrased to say that the best effort out of KE ( not from skunks but generally the tech sector ) will be nothing but "mpesa" which is absurd to me. Imagine telling the guy of downloaded libraries and still cannot build something unique to KE ? wooaaa!! me thots... :-)
If a future only applies to hardcore programmers then it should be enough incentive for scripties and the rest to mutate and evolve into hardcore programmers while they are still young... and that idea of only showing off mpesa to Tim is evn more incentive to get out of the scripties realm too SKYPE: sobbayi US: +1 202 297 6831 +1 202 470 0525 KE: +254 722 627 691 http://blog.sobbayi.com http://sobbayi.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "aki" <aki275@googlemail.com> To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2009 5:00:49 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Will Open source make developing nations dumber and dependent on freeware to run economies? On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Steve Obbayi < steve@sobbayi.com > wrote: @Aki before you jump to any conclusions about the short career path of hard core developers... look at what developers in developing countries say about it here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/972611/old-developers-any-future @Steve, thnks. read that and me thinks it applies only to hard core programmers. Code scripties and the rest unfortunately will not make it.. even the oldies have to learn many newer things or be phased out. On another topic, it will be interesting to see is what Walu just posted a few minutes ago. The person coming over for a visit is not a Mr/Miss Chai na Mandazi session but a computer scientist and decorated one at that, Sir Timothy John "Tim" Berners-Lee. I'm embararrased to say that the best effort out of KE ( not from skunks but generally the tech sector ) will be nothing but "mpesa" which is absurd to me. Imagine telling the guy of downloaded libraries and still cannot build something unique to KE ? wooaaa!! me thots... :-)
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
If a future only applies to hardcore programmers then it should be enough incentive for scripties and the rest to mutate and evolve into hardcore programmers while they are still young... and that idea of only showing off mpesa to Tim is evn more incentive to get out of the scripties realm too
@Steve, now we are talking and thus onto the subject line which is : OS is going to create a dependency and dumbness. As individuals, the need to strive for better access to hardcore programming is vital. Please name a place in Kenya or in the Africa region that offers real hardcore programming skills and just not some stuff people get from eg rapidshare as DIYs and think its the end game. Even in the US, according to the articles I read, Ruby has posed major challenges to old hardcore programmers who may find it difficult to apply and payment economies would rather have a younger programmer with Ruby skillset while being paid less. Software engineers learnt a lot about how quickly retrenchment was taking place when coding skills were outsourced. Many had learnt about 4 different languages yet it was defeated by a business cycle. On the issue of Tim and mpesa, someone please save him the disappointment. Am sure he will see it from a mile away and I don't think the mpesa origin story has fully settled as to rights of who did it, when and what. Mpesa's origin as best controversy. So what do we present to Sir Tim? Somehow my subject line weighs heavily... Rgds. :-)
@Aki ... subject line does weigh heavily ... :-). I may approach this from a broader perspective or perhaps we may not be coming from the same understanding of open source. As for dependency: I don't see how negative dependency results from using code that comes with rights to access and do with as you please as far as modifications ... depending on the license a developer can refuse to share the modifications. If anything it would hopefully form the basis of becoming hardcore; it is for the individuals to make the effort to become more knowledgeable about the code etc. As for dumbness: reinventing the wheel would certainly qualify as a less than fruitful use of time when there exists an appropriate solution, fully accessible with minimum effort. There are certainly software problems that require the use of creative thought and effort and using existing libraries while solving a problem in a new way does advance the state of art. IMO, engineering as a discipline is about solving problems so for software engineers ... after the 2nd and 3rd programming language/platform, it comes repetitive and frankly boring so the choices boil down to: management or attempting to solve a non-trivial problem. Cheers :-) On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:43 PM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote:
If a future only applies to hardcore programmers then it should be enough incentive for scripties and the rest to mutate and evolve into hardcore programmers while they are still young... and that idea of only showing off mpesa to Tim is evn more incentive to get out of the scripties realm too
@Steve, now we are talking and thus onto the subject line which is : OS is going to create a dependency and dumbness. As individuals, the need to strive for better access to hardcore programming is vital. Please name a place in Kenya or in the Africa region that offers real hardcore programming skills and just not some stuff people get from eg rapidshare as DIYs and think its the end game. Even in the US, according to the articles I read, Ruby has posed major challenges to old hardcore programmers who may find it difficult to apply and payment economies would rather have a younger programmer with Ruby skillset while being paid less.
Software engineers learnt a lot about how quickly retrenchment was taking place when coding skills were outsourced. Many had learnt about 4 different languages yet it was defeated by a business cycle.
On the issue of Tim and mpesa, someone please save him the disappointment. Am sure he will see it from a mile away and I don't think the mpesa origin story has fully settled as to rights of who did it, when and what. Mpesa's origin as best controversy.
So what do we present to Sir Tim? Somehow my subject line weighs heavily...
Rgds. :-)
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- blog: http://imma.wordpress.com
@Emmanuel, thnks. I think FreeBSD is something that holds a unified light for OS which will make development easier. Well, I hope to see something new from local OS people sometime next year worth many mentions and achievements. Something to change perceptions that exist. When I mention dumbness, it is not meant as an insult but as a wake up call that things should be moving or we easily become Open Source Robots who can only do one thing : download this or that. I've shared me thots... nice week to all. :-)
On the Subject: Yes I believe so, in fact I talked about this 2 years ago and many skunks didn't agree with me. I believe so because Open source's business model isn't competition friendly because there isn't enough room to make money thus the market can only handle a handful of companies. The existing handful of companies have managed to spread an illusion of open source. These companies will truly give out their code but they understand very well that very few people can make useful modifications to the code, useful enough to have a product worth selling *cough* supporting *cough*. And the developer/company that does so will be bought out by them (even if they're not bought out, they better be as good as the company making the open source otherwise they might not compete). Let me cut this short: As I concluded 2 years ago, the best thing is a balance of Open Source and Proprietary but not either. To answer Barrack's request: I would say that age is an indirect factor. Usually programming requires lots of time and effort including mental effort. The average 30-35 year old is probably looking at having a family plus other life commitments which also take up time therefore I think these factors directly affect whether one can dedicate time to start learning about programming. Personally I plan to move on to other stuff. I'm already good at many kinds of programming (languages and/or systems/platforms). The really interesting stuff is research that produces interesting algorithms and techniques. O_O --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> wrote: From: Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Will Open source make developing nations dumber and dependent on freeware to run economies? To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 11:23 AM @Aki before you jump to any conclusions about the short career path of hard core developers... look at what developers in developing countries say about it here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/972611/old-developers-any-future SKYPE: sobbayi US: +1 202 297 6831 +1 202 470 0525 KE: +254 722 627 691 http://blog.sobbayi.com http://sobbayi.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "aki" <aki275@googlemail.com> To: "Skunkworks Forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2009 3:58:57 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Will Open source make developing nations dumber and dependent on freeware to run economies? On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Barrack Otieno < otieno.barrack@gmail.com > wrote: Wesley i am keen to get your take on this...is age a factor with regard to entry level in programming?, sorry aki for deviating @Barrack, thnks for the info. I too have been researching some articles on age and programming and came across one that was a eye opener. It highly suggests that programmers and software engineers have a short career life ( unless you are in a developing country where code as old as 40-50 years can still make headlines... ) similar to a professional sports person. The age of 40 seems to be a downhill trend for programmers as they either end up as management ( which they hate but have no choice ) or the lucky ones who end up as lead programmers for a team etc. I'm curios about something too, on Open Source and schools in Kenya. What linux version is being used, or has someone decided that a certain linux version is the way forward? What about PC-BSD, is this also being used as a learning platform? me thots.. :-) Rgds. _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com>wrote:
Aki, My opinion is Open Source is more important to the developing World than the developed due to flexibility in Licensing and cost of deploying and might be the only affordable option that will enable us catch up if we ever will with the developed world, in any case most licensing models have been developed for markets in the developed world. I think the greatest challenge we are facing is point of entry, at what age are we introduced to software developement, can someone do a comparison between the developing and developed world as to when people are introduced to s/w developement this might be the answer to our quest for innovation, in the developing world most guys tend to get into programming in their late teens or twenties when "other priorities" have caught up with them in life :-), Wesley i am keen to get your take on this...is age a factor with regard to entry level in programming?, sorry aki for deviating
There is nothing to debate here especially in Africa. Of course the younger the better BUT better late (learning) than never. Worked with a lady from India some years ago. I asked her how they become so good in programming (she was fantastic). She said they exposed themselves to people, programmes or projects that made them sharp. She would bring her 7 or 8 year old son to work just to sharpen him. He should be 15 or 16 years now. Whatever the case, as in Kenya, many Indians begin coding at 18 - 23 years and catch up with their Western peers in about 5 years They are INTENSE!.
... make developing nations dumber: I don't think so. If anything the truly visionary governments will encourage the growth of the open source movement within their borders. This is not because open source software is exceptionally better but because open source (as a movement), deemphasizes code as a source of revenue which is good for business in the long run. In the long run, selling software is inherently self-contradictory: - Improved quality means that users can comfortably use older versions hence avoid/withhold paying for a new upgrade; the general talk is that Windows Vista is bad but then again Windows XP is adequate (competing with your own products will affect revenue). The better the software becomes, the more satisfied users are with older software - they may want to use it for longer periods, regardless of any new releases - As a software firm starting out: success will come with a large user base so anti-piracy measures will most likely limit adoption That said, if a proprietary company already has dominance, they may be able to slow down the effect of selling software. However this is not asily done as open source software can just as well become competitive in their own right (ref: Firefox). Contrast the above with a setup where access to the code and binaries does not affect revenue flow that much. The nature of competition and cost (distribution and marketing for example) of running a software company may change. It helps to see open source as a movement and depending on the license chosen, it is not an all-or-nothing proposition either: both proprietary (closed-source) and open source companies can participate in the movement. The best part is that market dominance is determined by product and service quality. My two cents. On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:46 AM, aki <aki275@googlemail.com> wrote:
Not to provoke any nerves etc and am just wondering aloud. As I see tech things evolve each day or month, I kind of get the impression Open Source will be a cause of a lot of misery, especially where it is involved in many versions and platforms. I think eg FreeBSD holds the Open Source key to future stability and development and should be the way forward for a single platform approach.
Why are we creating modern type writers by running Open Source on laptops and desktops?
me mid-week thots... :-)
_______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks ------------ Skunkworks Rules http://my.co.ke/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=94 ------------ Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general
-- blog: http://imma.wordpress.com
participants (7)
-
aki -
Barrack Otieno -
Emmanuel Taban -
Frankline Chitwa -
Murigi Muraya -
Steve Obbayi -
wesley kirinya