@Steve, I'm going to respect your opinion and you've also got to respect mine. I've known you on this list as some of the few and best knowledgeable people on the network layer. Until you make the jump from "User and Consumer of Open Source" to "Creator on Open Source", we will keep going back and forth, and following the protests about noisy and hijacked threads, lets keep this one clean. 1) In a nutshell this is what the Technology Producers Group is about. We want to separate the Users from the Creators. And you are most welcome, as your knowledge and skills are quite important to where this group goes. As an example, you also know that 99% of all the boxed NTM, IDS devices are based on Open Source. All that the manufacturers/creators of these boxed devices did was to create a proprietary algorithm or sequence that makes the boxes perform differently. Given the level of expertise that is within the KE circles on Network Layer & Open Source, what is stopping local production of NTM/IDS devices for not only local sale but export? We need a development plan and a focus to match what Smart Companies will do. Whether you or I can get involved commercially or not, lets have some platform to try and achieve this because it is very very possible. Are you saying that given your network knowledge, you cannot create a device that fulfills the goals of IP Traffic Management for Egde Networks? We can easily do this, just going by our experiences and knowledge on the layer. 2) @John Doe posted a very interesting thread on his internet problems. Partly you and me and other Network layer specialists are to blame for the current bad situation in the Data Sector. So we have all this knowledge and experience, know what high standards are required, yet some of our Data Networks are running in pre-historic internet times? This is where the Technology Producers Group is going to change things. I see it as a platform in the future that can convince investors that there are people in KE who can turn around the data sector very easily. If they are able to fund the STMs and Last Miles and see profitability of such, TPG can turn around the current situation. These are some of the ideas as we go forward. :-) Rgds.