And sorry, I meant balanced binary-search trees and binary search instead of binary trees and binary sort respectively. Martin. On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Moses <mosenetk@gmail.com> wrote:
Before we fork the discussion to more unlikely outcomes, Pascal has been examined at the KSCE for many years and for those of you who had the opportunity of teaching an 11year old how to 'develop' you will appreciate that it might be one of the most suitable languages at that level. One is able to help the student in the thought process of development and prepare them to be credible coders when they start using more real-life languages. Now, does anyone have the said papers that Peter here is looking for?
Moses.
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Martin Chiteri <martin.chiteri@gmail.com>wrote:
Hi @Rad,
Apologies if it appeared that am against the teaching of low-level programming in schools. I __*know*__ it is a very good idea since I had to pass through a similar process in order to appreciate how computers and compilers *really* work. The only problem I find with introducing C / C++ too early is that it becomes so easy for beginners to believe that "programming is hard!". I for one have a classmate who was never able to make the classic "Hello world!" program written in C execute on Visual studio. That happened in first year and as of fourth year nothing had really changed. Am quite certain that killed-off his enthusiasm for coding and we might never be able to tell if he (and others) would have made a good developer. Am also sure it would have been a breeze in Python / Ruby from a terminal.
In my opinion C and the likes should come to those who have either already advanced sufficiently in the skill or are willing to dive in the deep end from the word go. To me, doubly/linked lists, heaps, maps, binary trees, graphs, quick sorts, bubble sorts, binary sorts, merge sorts, stack-pointers, accumulators, jump instructions, pipelining et al belong to the area of speculative knowledge. An awfully large number of *good coders* don't have to formally use them in their day-to-day work. Again, it is somewhat unfair to judge how good one truly is with those parameters alone. As you said, coding is about Thinking above everything else.
Martin.
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
Adam, Martin, et al
I chose my words carefully. I said pascal is good for teaching programming, data structures and algorithms.
I did not say it was good for software development.
The argument that learning pointers is unnecessary is one I strongly refute. The best mechanics are those who know how engines work.
I have been interviewing developers for almost a decade. I'm saddened to find developers who know java / python / c# or whatever shiny language who don't know how a double linked list works. Or why inserts are quick for some data structures and slow for others. Or why searches are fast on some data structures and slow on others. Or the value of pointers.
This is not useless knowledge.
Btw I was also of that school of thought that C and Pascal are useless. Luckily I got lecturers while I was I school who made us learn them well. Without a doubt they played a big part in shaped my career and installing that programming is not about languages, they are about thinking. And therein is the benefit of C and Pascal - they force you to think.
You'll be a better java / ruby / php etc programmer for it.
On Monday, March 25, 2013, Moses Katembu wrote:
@Peter There is KNEC Bookshop opposite National Bank, Harambee Avenue called Mitihani Bookshop. That's where I used to buy KCSE past papers 8yrs ago. This link<http://www.knec.ac.ke/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=26>will be helpful to you.
In 2005 I did my KCSE Computer Studies Project(*Transport Management System*) in Pascal. Back then we struggled to do the project considering there were few semi-qualified high school tutors. The school Library had two copies of early 80's donated pascal books. Luckily the Postal Corporation had just unveiled those caged computer (Cyber) and our school having one outside the gate googling helped us alot. Did I say I had 10 Diskette to store my project in-case one fail.
8 years later I would be surprised if they still use Pascal and Diskette as it was KNEC requirement to submit the Project in 2 Diskette.
+1 Python.
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Martin Chiteri < martin.chiteri@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Adam Nelson <adam@varud.com> wrote:
The same could be said for C. What's the point in learning about memory management, etc.. when it's a niche problem that has been 'solved' in modern systems?
The answer is that memory management, etc.. hasn't been solved for low level systems (kernels and drivers) and that working in higher level languages like Python can benefit from knowing how internals work.
Nonetheless, people have a certain amount of time to dedicate to learning and that's a real issue. Time spent in C is time that could have been spent on studying Philosophy, Literature, Science, History, and all the other critical fields of study necessary to grow a modern, liberal society.
@Adam,
If I was designing the KCSE, I would certainly focus on Python for advanced students because it's a language that allows one to work on the widest range of problems, has a shallow learning curve, and is in real world use around the world.
I said something similar before and a good number of Skunks started moving towards my direction with pitchforks and torches. Tread carefully ..... :-D
Martin.
https://twitter.com/varud https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com>wrote:
@Rad, I have zero experience in either Pascal or Python, and in my ignorance, I am wondering why anyone in their right mind would want to teach Pascal in this day and age...
If you really want to teach the basics of programming, why not do it in C? That way, you pre-condition the kids brain to better assimilate other C derivatives
Form 4: Beginner C Year 1: Advanced C Year 2: C++ Year 3: Java/Python/PHP/Ruby Year 4: Contributing code to Linux Kernel After graduation: Take over the world?
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Areba Collins [ @BrainiacKE ® ] < arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote:
I was just responding to Areba.
same here bro, Mine was a statement of fact....
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Rad! <conradakunga@gmail.com> wrote:
I was just responding to Areba.
As for whether it is currently examined I'm to sure but I know it used to be
On Monday, March 25, 2013, Okechukwu wrote:
@Rad! there is no one who has given a contrary
Moses
*Mzoori <http://www.mzoori.com/>* Are You? github: *katembu <http://github.com/katembu>* twitter: *mkatembu <http://twitter.com/mkatembu>* skype:* katembu*
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