@William, consider the classic example of customer-orders-order_details-products:

customer:
id | name | email

orders
id | order_number | date | customer_id

order_details
id | order_id | product_id | qty

products
id | name | description | unit_price

With these constraints:
1. A customer can make many orders
2. An order can have many products

Suppose then, you have users who need to see information in this format:

customer name | customer email | product name | qty | unit price | total

For EACH product ordered (i.e. for each row in order_details), how would you do it?

In my scenario, the SELECT part fetches specific data from 3 different tables and lays it out in a format that the report expects, and I chose to create it as a permanent table instead of a view. Is this what you call duplicating table structure?

Thanks for the heads up on cacti, I didn't know I could do that.

But the point of contention is this:

Suppose you have a table with 5 columns, and you need to select all of them; is SELECT * any worse than naming those 5 columns?


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 4:03 PM, William Muriithi <william.muriithi@gmail.com> wrote:


>
> @Ndwex, nope, I am not duplicating table structure. I am following
> something I heard from some Facebook engineering video "store the data in
> the state its going to be used". The actual SELECT I use from my_table_b is
> a little bit more complicated. Like I mentioned, its a particularly nasty
> piece of SQL which takes 40 seconds to run, and does some calculations and
> transformations that honestly gives me headaches.
>

It may have been suggested by Facebook guy but you are being dishonest by saying its not table duplication.

And to me, sound like an over engineered nightmare. Sorry for the people who will support the system and devs who will maintain the code.


> And then you raise something interesting... A colleague once challenged me
> to practically and factually show him why *SELECT column_a, column_b,
> column_c FROM some_table *is better than *SELECT ** *FROM some_table*. EXPLAIN

> and EXPLAIN EXTENDED didnt show me any difference between the two.
>
Would be petty easy  demonstration. Set up a MySQL database with significant data and graph I/O through cacti.  Then set up a clone to run some random select * . After collecting enough I/O data, turn the select * to select column x and compare the 2 I/O graphs.

Seriously, this don't even need that demonstration. Its petty logical to assume pulling out a full table from hard disk is more involving that pulling a column or two.

Muriithi

>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Ken Muturi <muturiken@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think peter is trying to have data from one table to another table but
> > in a different format. Perhaps the one table is a Key => value but now
> > wants to create a linear/structured table with some of key/values. some
> > kind of PIVOTING. Mysql does it by MAX CASING.  (I have been there.) .
> >
> > @Nd'wex => a view may not be appropriate probably because of performance
> > (in a view u will just be running the same query again and again from the
> > parent.) which i suppose peter is why he is creating the next table because
> > of performance issues.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Nd'wex Common <flexycat@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> @peter looking at the query seems like you are duplicating a tables
> >> structure and copying the respective record which in turn brings up the
> >> arguments by nelson (above) why not create a view?
> >>
> >> tip: select * is more hungry resource wise that select id
> >>
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:50:35 +0300
> From: Ken Muturi <muturiken@gmail.com>

> To: Skunkworks Mailing List <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] MySQL question: create table if not exists
> Message-ID:
>         <CAJB+wwnH_5DrtBzbuf2z2oyDs24_ZH+b=_hgvRnwp0MJQWrgFg@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>
> @Adam.. My MYSQL table is crawling at 500-600k. Perhaps an indexing problem
> though i have a few indexes on it..
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Adam Nelson <adam@varud.com> wrote:
>
> > I thought you were just using pseudocode to get the answer but that you
> > would actually be using the CodeIgniter ORM to handle all of this stuff so
> > it's really just academic, no?
> >
> > Anyway, even a 1M record table is super fast on a MySQL server so I'm not
> > sure if this matters at all and even a 10M record table will respond to a
> > one record SELECT in milliseconds.
> >
> > --
> > Kili.io - OpenStack for Africa: kili.io
> > Musings: twitter.com/varud <https://twitter.com/varud>
> > About Adam: www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> @William, have you heard of  LimeSurvey? Ages ago, it used to be one of
> >> the best open source "dynamic survey creation tool". It would create a
> >> database table for each survey the user would create.
> >>
> >> I don't know how SurveyMonkey or Google Forms does it, but I am using the
> >> approach LimeSurvey used to use.
> >>
> >> Granted, I could store all questionnaires and their stuff in the same
> >> tables, but for a busy setup, that would grow very big very fast, which in
> >> itself is not a problem, but I would rather solve many small problems than
> >> one gigantic one :-)
> >>
> >> @Adam, I thought there were two ways of checking the existence of a
> >> table; 1. Touch it as @Steve suggested, or 2. Check in information_schema,
> >> no?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Adam Nelson <adam@varud.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> @murithi
> >>>
> >>> You bring up an important point.  Ideally, schema migrations are done by
> >>> a different database user than the one used by the application under normal
> >>> use.  This isn't commonly done but is definitely best practice.
> >>>
> >>> Nonetheless, the schema migration has to be done via a user with rights
> >>> to do it ... you can't create a table without the privileges to do so.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Kili.io - OpenStack for Africa: kili.io
> >>> Musings: twitter.com/varud <https://twitter.com/varud>
> >>> About Adam: www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 10:43 PM, William Muriithi <
> >>> william.muriithi@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> > I can't imagine that a mature framework like CodeIgniter would touch
> >>>> the
> >>>> > table in order to check for the existence of that table.
> >>>> >
> >>>> Think a production application should not be able to alter the database
> >>>> schema. Should only be able to insert, update, select and delete for
> >>>> security reasons.
> >>>>
> >>>> So optimization that is checking schema status is a wrong approach in
> >>>> my humble opinion
> >>>>
> >>>> Muriithi
> >>>> > --
> >>>> > Kili.io - OpenStack for Africa: kili.io
> >>>> > Musings: twitter.com/varud <https://twitter.com/varud>
> >>>>
> >>>> > About Adam: www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Peter Karunyu <pkarunyu@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > @Adam, yes, the framework I use (CodeIgniter) allows usage of
> >>>> ActiveRecord
> >>>> > > and a variety of other third party ORMs. I wrote the queries herein
> >>>> to make
> >>>> > > it easier to explain my situation.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > On the (de)merits of using ORMs and other database abstractions, I
> >>>> believe
> >>>> > > thats a *discussion* for another day :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Adam Nelson <adam@varud.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >> @steve - you're right about the permission issues and the SELECT
> >>>> can be a
> >>>> > >> good workaround
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> @peter - why are you writing SQL from a program?  Presumably,
> >>>> whatever
> >>>> > >> framework you're using has abstracted this stuff out, no?
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> --
> >>>> > >> Kili.io - OpenStack for Africa: kili.io
> >>>> > >> Musings: twitter.com/varud <https://twitter.com/varud>
> >>>>
> >>>> > >> About Adam: www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >>> Depending on the situation one can run into unexpected occurrences
> >>>> > >>> reading the information schema because of permissions. In short
> >>>> for a
> >>>> > >>> general user you cannot access all table meta data from that
> >>>> schema without
> >>>> > >>> proper rights... you are restricted to only some of it otherwise
> >>>> you get
> >>>> > >>> NULLs all over the place. Then again there is the significantly
> >>>> additional
> >>>> > >>> overhead reading from the info schema, but again this can be
> >>>> argued away in
> >>>> > >>> dozens of ways. Doing a simple select is the least painful of
> >>>> course unless
> >>>> > >>> the table exists and has a gazillion rows :) so running a query
> >>>> like SELECT
> >>>> > >>> 1 FROM table LIMIT 0,1 becomes the least expensive option to
> >>>> verify
> >>>> > >>> existence of a table in MySQL.
> >>>> > >>>
> >>>> > >>> ------------------------------
> >>>> > >>>
> >>>> > >>> *From: *"Adam Nelson" <adam@varud.com>
> >>>> > >>>
> >>>> > >>> *To: *"Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
> >>>> > >>> *Sent: *Mi?rcoles, 23 de Octubre 2013 14:08:36
> >>>> > >>>
> >>>> > >>> *Subject: *Re: [Skunkworks] MySQL question: create table if not
> >>>> exists
> >>>>
> >>>> > >>>
> >>>> > >>> Nonetheless, if you want to know if a table exists, the proper
> >>>> place to
> >>>> > >>> look is in the information_schema database or if for some reason
> >>>> you can't
> >>>> > >>> look there, run `show tables;` from within the database you're
> >>>> checking.
> >>>> > >>>
> >>>> > >>> There's no need to touch the table in order to evaluate its
> >>>> existence.
> >>>> > >>>
> >>>> > >>> --
> >>>> > >>> Kili.io - OpenStack for Africa: kili.io
> >>>> > >>> Musings: twitter.com/varud <https://twitter.com/varud>
> >>>>
> >>>> > >>> About Adam: www.linkedin.com/in/adamcnelson
> >>>> > >>>
> >>>> > >>>
> >>>> > >>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> > >>>
> >>>> > >>>> Yes really @Rad its the resource that returns NULL and not the
> >>>> table
> >>>> > >>>> row, don't mix the two. By the way 'id' is the name of any
> >>>> column in the
> >>>> > >>>> table and not 'id' persay so in essence..
> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>> > >>>> SELECT any_row from table;
> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>> > >>>> should return the rows or 0 rows if the table exists. By calling
> >>>> the
> >>>> > >>>> affected_rows function in the mysql api one can clarify that.
> >>>> NULL is
> >>>> > >>>> returned when mysql doesnt find the table to select from.
> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------
> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>> > >>>>  *From: *"Rad!" <conradakunga@gmail.com>
> >>>> > >>>> *To: *"Skunkworks Mailing List" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
> >>>> > >>>> *Sent: *Mi?rcoles, 23 de Octubre 2013 12:19:37
> >>>> > >>>> *Subject: *Re: [Skunkworks] MySQL question: create table if not
> >>>> exists
> >>>>
> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>> > >>>> @steve really? What if the value for ID is actually null?
> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Steve Obbayi <steve@sobbayi.com
> >>>> >wrote:
> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> Yes it starts with the SELECT then executes the CREATE...  IF
> >>>> NOT
> >>>> > >>>>> EXISTS is simply meant to suppress errors that the table
> >>>> already exists and
> >>>> > >>>>> from an execution stand point it is no different than if it was
> >>>> left out.
> >>>> > >>>>> In short CREATE always checks if the table exists before
> >>>> creating it
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> In addition to your solution you can also run a simple query
> >>>> directly
> >>>> > >>>>> on the table (SELECT Id FROM table ) and if it returns NULL
> >>>> then the table
> >>>> > >>>>> doesn't exist so you can proceed and create it
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> *From: *"Peter Karunyu" <pkarunyu@gmail.com <pkarunyu@gmail.
> >>>> ..com>>
> >>>> > >>>>> *To: *"Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
> >>>> > >>>>> *Sent: *Mi?rcoles, 23 de Octubre 2013 10:38:07
> >>>> > >>>>> *Subject: *[Skunkworks] MySQL question: create table if not
> >>>> exists
> >>>>
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> Dear MySQL gurus,
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> So I have this query:
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> *CREATE TABLE IF NOT EXISTS  my_table_a ( SELECT * FROM
> >>>> my_table_b
> >>>> > >>>>> WHERE some_column=some_value);*
> >>>>
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> My question is, how does MySQL evaluate it? Does it start with
> >>>> the
> >>>> > >>>>> SELECT * then goes to check if that table exists, then creates
> >>>> the table?
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> The reason I am asking is because the *SELECT * FROM my_table_b
> >>>> WHERE
> >>>> > >>>>> some_column=some_value *part is particularly nasty and takes
> >>>> forever,
> >>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> and therefore, I was thinking of splitting it into two thus:
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> 1. $x = SELECT COUNT(1) FROM information_schema.tables WHERE
> >>>> > >>>>> table_schema='my_db' AND table_name='my_table_a'
> >>>> > >>>>> 2. if ( ! $x ) { CREATE TABLE my_table_a ( SELECT * FROM
> >>>> my_table_b
> >>>> > >>>>> WHERE some_column=some_value); }
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> And therefore, possibly save a few seconds.
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> Or am I searching for speed in the wrong place?
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> > >>>>> skunkworks mailing list
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> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > --
> >>>> > > Regards,
> >>>> > > Peter Karunyu
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> >>
> >> --
> >> Regards,
> >> Peter Karunyu
> >> -------------------
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-------------------